Re: Ubuntu boot speed fall in Hardy
posted mailed (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: Olá Mackenzie e a todos. On Wednesday 14 May 2008 05:14:51 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: The results of using Bootchart to map the GNOME startup process, for the many users that did it, consistently showed gnome-panel as the culprit. How does one use bootchart to map GNOME? mine ends on X11. I just did a quick edit of /etc/init.d/stop-bootchart and added a sleep 30s just after start) . -- Sitsofe | http://sucs.org/~sits/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 22:24 +0200, Krzysztof Klimonda wrote: Unless KDE and GNOME developers agree to create common HIG there is no way to create consistent desktop by using K* and G* applications simultaneously. And if someone wonder if consistency is worth all the effort look at the Mac OS X - people use this system among other things because of how does all applications look alike. There are also things like: GNOME: preferences goes in Edit Windows OOo: preferences/options goes in Tools KDE: have a Settings menu and 4 or more places inside it to change settings OSX: preferences are in the app's name's menu It also seems to me that GNOME favors drop-down menus for settings where only one is possible while KDE goes for lots of radio buttons and tabs (ex: KMail). Personally, KDE's settings menus scare me at first look. I can't take in the amount of information displayed on one page in KDE settings without feeling overwhelmed, so I wouldn't mind seeing that change. Also saying that that most people doesn't care about HIG and It only matters for developers and fan boys isn't fair. It means that what developers does has no real value.. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
On Sat, 2008-05-17 at 02:08 +0100, Fergal Daly wrote: I do think that the world breaks down into 1 people who will only ever use g... or k... and are thus unaffected by this 2 people who want to use the best tool for the job, of which we have 2a people who know how to tweak .rc files to make them both the same 2b people who just want to get on with it and are unable or unwilling to figure out how to fix it or don't even realise there's a fixable problem and just think this linux thing is annoying. I'm part of: 2c people who don't even notice that they switch sides Even after hearing online a whole bunch about how zomg the kde buttons and the gnome buttons are on opposite sides i keep clicking cancel by accident!!!11! I still haven't noticed it. Read the buttons. If it says OK or Close it keeps your settings. As long as it's at the bottom, it'll be obvious that those buttons make the window go away, and the one that doesn't say Cancel is the one that saves. Do people actually memorize things as click on the button on the right? Really? I don't think so. I've never heard directions be given like that. It's always Click OK. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
2008/5/18 Mackenzie Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Do people actually memorize things as click on the button on the right? Really? I don't think so. I've never heard directions be given like that. It's always Click OK. Yes. These are the ones who install Gator and Buddy and all other sorts of malware. A bank recently experimented with a security measure that went like this: popup that said We are now sending you a virus. Please click OK to continue and the users who clicked OK were barred from logging into their online accounts. 87% of their users were barred from logging into their online accounts. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
2008/5/16 Krzysztof Klimonda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It seems from the paragraph below that there is a way - there just needs to be a flame war to decide which one to twiddle by default for those who don't care, That's exactly the problem - no matter what decision is made the half of the users (those more aware who has used linux for years, who should be precious for any distribution as it's them who advocacy for Ubuntu and Linux in general) will be pissed off. Depends on how you do it. If you change the system default then yes you'll upset a lot of people. Instead you can put something into /etc/skel so that all newly created users get consistency and old-timers get left as they were, F I guess it is possible to choose button layout and theme based on the DE that's active. But it still won't be consistent GUI. The difference between KDE and Gnome applications cannot be reduced to the different widgets or button layout. Unless KDE and GNOME developers agree to create common HIG there is no way to create consistent desktop by using K* and G* applications simultaneously. And if someone wonder if consistency is worth all the effort look at the Mac OS X - people use this system among other things because of how does all applications look alike. Also saying that that most people doesn't care about HIG and It only matters for developers and fan boys isn't fair. It means that what developers does has no real value.. F Best Regards, Krzysztof Klimonda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://getfiregpg.org iD8DBQFILe2ars/V4+kvH8sRAknUAJsE4ts/B+IKiCaB6ueodYHcZdJKCgCguCmJ WiwikBaMxaMYK63RhuCZo2E= =2AFY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
2008/5/18 Fergal Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That's exactly the problem - no matter what decision is made the half of the users (those more aware who has used linux for years, who should be precious for any distribution as it's them who advocacy for Ubuntu and Linux in general) will be pissed off. Depends on how you do it. If you change the system default then yes you'll upset a lot of people. Instead you can put something into /etc/skel so that all newly created users get consistency and old-timers get left as they were, That's the Gnome way: make decisions for the users, assuming that what the dev wants is exactly what the user wants. The KDE way would be to make it konfigurable, where the user can choose which side he prefers. There would be six options: 1) On the left 2) On the right 3) Application direction (right-to-left and left-to-right) 4) Application direction reversed 5) Use GTK default 6) CowboyNeal Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was reading /. and they have an article up about QGtkStyle http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/15/1319204 A new project called QGtkStyle by Trolltech Labs gives Qt4 based applications the possibility to integrate natively into Gtk based desktops like Gnome or Xfce. Instead of simply imitating Gtk styles QGtkStyle uses the Gtk theme engine directly. The project is still considered experimental, but is another step into better integration between Qt and Gtk applications. And it reminded me of something that I had been thinking about in the past; Ubuntu is GNOME-based, but does not always default to GNOME's app selections (e.g. Firefox, GIMP and OpenOffice.org as I recall). Wouldn't it be interesting to take that a step further and have Ubuntu represent the best Linux apps (e.g. K3B?), regardless of widget dependency? If QGtkStyle (or such) could seamlessly integrate them visually, I don't see why (beyond LiveCD size restrictions) that this wouldn't be a good idea... Anyway, just thought I'd mention the idea to see what people think. CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss There will always be something obvious about QT apps running in GNOME or GTK apps running in KDE. It's a question of who amongst the two desktops will bend for the sake of consistency of their each own applications. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Fwd: Perl 5.10 transition: Done
If there are Perl 5.10 problems you've been waiting for Debian's transition to help us out, you've gotten all the help you are going to get. Time to get to work. Scott K .. Forwarded Message ... From: Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 00:44:28 +0200 Subj: Perl 5.10 transition: Done Heya, The Perl5.10 transition has now been completed, with about 400 source packages in testing getting updates (either by new source versions or binNMUs). I have removed the upload block for the involved packages and would like to thank all involved maintainers, bug reporters and the Perl maintainer team for their help. In the course of the perl5.10 transition, new versions of heimdal, clamav and sendmail/libmilter have moved to testing. The release team has planned several other, considerably less complex updates for xulrunner, ocaml, ffmpeg, poppler and nautilus over the next weeks. Please also note that this new perl version is the last major update to the Debian toolchain for lenny. Thanks, Marc -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
On Sun, 18 May 2008 00:15:23 +0100 Fergal Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/5/16 Krzysztof Klimonda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It seems from the paragraph below that there is a way - there just needs to be a flame war to decide which one to twiddle by default for those who don't care, That's exactly the problem - no matter what decision is made the half of the users (those more aware who has used linux for years, who should be precious for any distribution as it's them who advocacy for Ubuntu and Linux in general) will be pissed off. Depends on how you do it. If you change the system default then yes you'll upset a lot of people. Instead you can put something into /etc/skel so that all newly created users get consistency and old-timers get left as they were, Us old timers sometimes buy new hardware and do new installs. This doesn't really hlp much. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu beyond GTK apps?
On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/5/18 Fergal Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That's the Gnome way: make decisions for the users, assuming that what the dev wants is exactly what the user wants. The KDE way would be to make it konfigurable, where the user can choose which side he prefers. I'd suggest anyone following the quoted text above read this blog post, perhaps ironically written by someone working on KDE software... [I would also suggest that they look at how Ubuntu, KDE and GNOME make decisions, since the above is a ghastly inaccurate generalization of the processes involved] http://weblog.obso1337.org/2008/four-words-for-funpidgin/ The irony, of course, comes from the criticality of the team working on Funpidgin, while ignoring some of their own software teams that employ many of the tactics or similar ones that the post is critical of (though in addition to her points, s/Users/Developers/ is probably just as fair a substitution to make in this case. This was pointed out by Emmanuele Bassi in the post's comments and I entirely agree with him). Pot, kettle, etc. I sincerely hope that they can read these words and take them to heart, not that they're not making significant strides forward towards usability, nor that GNOME isn't making strides towards flexibility. I'll refrain from posting in this thread any more, as it has already gotten dangerously offtopic and nearly pointless; a spartan flame under woolen attire, to beat around the bush a little. At the end of the day, the two camps have differing views on how things should be done, even if we can agree on common software and make our components' interoperability better and look-and-feel more compatible, as the software in the original post attempts to do. Perhaps it'd be enough just to package and ship the software and let users enable it at their will for now. How's that for doing what users wish? 2 cents, truckload of salt, opinions expressed are mine except where otherwise noted, no offense intentional, etc. -A.Walton Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
