Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Liam Zwitser liamzwit...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM Subject: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? To: ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Hello everyone, In Jaunty alpha 3 you can´t use CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE to restart the X-server anymore. I know that some users complained about restarting the X-server, but I see a lot more, including yours truly, complaining about the fact that the shortcut got disabled. I think it's a good idea to create a GUI to set X-server options, but I assume that most people don´t want to have to restart their pc when the GUI chrashes. It´s not windows, after all. What I propose is that people who want to get rid of the shortcut can do so easily via a simple GUI menu, but that it´s enabled by default. Yours sincerely, Liam Zwitser -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Kernel feature requests
Greetings all, Where would be the best place to ask for kernel features for 9.04 ? thanks nick L. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Typo in russian message translation of swapon
mma...@mmarkk-desktop:/tmp$ sudo swapon -a swapon: невозможно зупустить /dev/disk/by-uuid/5066c9f1-b2a1-4a7c-b225-67f6cbb70c04: No such file or directory Опечатка зупустить - запустить The same message in translit: mma...@mmarkk-desktop:/tmp$ sudo swapon -a swapon: nevozmojno zupustit' /dev/disk/by-uuid/5066c9f1-b2a1-4a7c-b225-67f6cbb70c04: No such file or directory Opechatka zupustit' - zapustit' -- С уважением, Коренберг Марк, ведущий разработчик. -- Айдеко Софтвер +7 (495) 987-32-70 ICQ 471846671 m...@ideco-software.ru www.ideco-software.ru -- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Main frozen for Alpha 4
i'm mostly curious about the lacking webcam support on interpid (i think no one has webcam working on interpid - specially those gspca, the most known webcam format) - do jaunty has a solution for this problem? thanks and cheers, Paulo - On 2/3/09, Steve Langasek steve.langa...@ubuntu.com wrote: Dear developers, Jaunty Alpha 4 is scheduled for this Thursday, February 5, so the milestone freeze is now in effect. Please take care that any packages you upload to main between now and the Alpha 4 release will help us in the goal of a high quality and timely alpha, and hold any disruptive or unnecessary uploads until after the alpha is out. Again, this means the primary focus should be on resolving these bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs?field.milestone=2212 The number of bugs targeted to this milestone is still small, but there's plenty of other work to be done in getting the archive in a consistent state so that we don't have uninstallable packages for the alpha-4 milestone: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive#Consistency Remember that this is a soft freeze, so you are each responsible for making sure your uploads are appropriate - Launchpad will not be your safety net.[1] Packages that are not seeded on the CDs (i.e., most packages in universe, with the exception of UbuntuStudio, Xubuntu, and Mythbuntu packages) may be uploaded as usual. Cheers, -- Steve Langasek On behalf of the Ubuntu release team [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-January/000519.html -- ubuntu-devel-announce mailing list ubuntu-devel-annou...@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
How do I stop this ...
I spent some time signing up for Linux the other day and must have inadvertently signed up to receive hundreds of different emails. Much as I love Linux I do not need to receive all the various emails that are sent from a huge number of people. How do I stop these arriving each day? Thanks Maurice Maurice Eastwick MEDIA DELIVERY MATTERS Studio: 603 546-6066 E-Mail: maurice_me...@comcast.net attachment: winmail.dat-- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu and language packs
2009/2/5 Loïc Martin loic.mart...@gmail.com: Firts, I don't understand why language-support-translations-XX install a package(s) thunderbird-locale-xx-XX when Ubuntu don't install thunderbird mail client by default... Ubuntu uses evolution as mail client, non? It's due to the way translations are handled in Ubuntu (and probably other distributions). For packages in main repositories, all program translations for one language are grouped in a single support package This doesn't make sense. thunderbird-locale is a separate package, so your answer hasn't anything to do with the original question. About English being installed by default, I am not sure but aren't the strings in the original language already available in the binary files themselves (eg, isn't it those which you see when using LANG=C)? -- Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT) Ubuntu Developer. Debian Contributor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Kernel feature requests
2009/1/30 Nick Lindsell nicklinds...@googlemail.com Greetings all, Where would be the best place to ask for kernel features for 9.04 ? thanks nick L. 9.04 use 2.6.28, then you can find info here: http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_28 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Friday 16 January 2009 15:58:23 Liam Zwitser wrote: In Jaunty alpha 3 you can´t use CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE to restart the X-server anymore. I know that some users complained about restarting the X-server, but I see a lot more, including yours truly, complaining about the fact that the shortcut got disabled. I think it's a good idea to create a GUI to set X-server options, but I assume that most people don´t want to have to restart their pc when the GUI chrashes. It´s not windows, after all. What I propose is that people who want to get rid of the shortcut can do so easily via a simple GUI menu, but that it´s enabled by default. I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it off. Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up: alt f2 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf Section ServerFlags Option DontZap no EndSection -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 13:39 -0800, Dylan McCall wrote: Another thing worth noting is that Ubuntu's /default/ effects via Compiz are very modest. In fact, they provide the same general features as Metacity's compositor does by default with about a quarter the standards compliance. Not true. The only effect provided by the Metacity compositor is drop-shadows. Otherwise all other effects are not available. Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 17:18 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: If metacity just does the features in 'Normal' visual effects. Then you could reserve the Extra button for installing compiz, much like the codecs are installed. This is the option we discussed last week; however Metacity doesn't provide anything like the current level of effects :-/ metacity-clutter is more interesting in this regard. Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: hwclock delaying boot...
On Thu, 2009-01-29 at 06:54 -0700, LaMont Jones wrote: On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:18:09AM +, Daniel J Blueman wrote: Boot-charting jaunty-A3 [1] on my SSD system, we see both the 'hwclockfirst.sh' and 'hwclock.sh' init scripts invoke 'hwclock --hctosys --utc', being significant on the map. The two scripts are debian/ubuntu specific, and yes they both need to be there. There are a series of long discussions centering around when we removed one of them. We did a deep-dive on this at the sprint, and it turns out that neither of them are necessary. http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareClock All we need to do on boot is step the system block by the timezone delta if the hardware clock is not storing UTC. On shutdown we do need to call --systohc to save the current time. No hardware clock alteration is required during suspend/resume. Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
On Sun, 2009-02-01 at 22:53 +0100, Martin Olsson wrote: PS. I think Lennart is doing a _terrific_ job; I'm hoping Ubuntu technical board understands the need to be careful about merging new stuff to avoid regressions. This experience has been quiet painful for me and I suspect there is other people still out there with PA related regressions. DS. It's not that simple, in fact I'd go as far to say that we should never adopt new things is a very dangerous position to take. Ubuntu gained its initial reputation by being cutting edge; we were one of the first distributions to truly embrace Linux 2.6, to base our distribution around hotplug (and later, udev), to make user mounting of pluggable devices just work, to enable compositing, to enable easy wireless management, etc. If we were to stop now, and declare that Ubuntu won't embrace new technologies or software for fear of regressions, Ubuntu in 10 years time will look like Ubuntu today -- except that a newer distribution will be cutting edge, and have the users. When we enabled compositing in our X server, we found that most of the drivers were broken in some way. But this didn't stay true forever. By enabling compositing, the problems with the drivers were very visible, bug reports were received - and drivers have improved across the board. When Network Manager was installed by default, we found that most of the wireless drivers were broken. Now we have a new wireless stack, and for a lot of the time, they're pretty bullet-proof. We've enabled PulseAudio, and now we've found that most of the audio drivers are broken. I strongly believe that they will be rapidly fixed now that bug reports are flowing in. I also strongly believe that if PulseAudio were turned off again, the flow of bug reports would be stopped and that the drivers would not be fixed. (After all, they wouldn't be broken if PA didn't have a catalyst effect). A better question would be to ask what features PulseAudio provides[0], and whether they are interesting for us as a distribution. It provides: - mixing of multiple sound sources, - to multiple sound outputs, - at different volume levels, - using DMA The first of these is an obvious one; you want to be able to play music, get sound events and hear your VoIP phone ringing. There are other pieces of software that do this already. The second of these is a major feature of PA. It supports multiple output devices, this is something that dmix, esd, etc. do not do. Simply put, this means your Bluetooth headset works *and* you can make a VoIP call on that while your sound card is still playing music. The third is another major PA feature, the volume control of each sound source can be controlled independently. When your VoIP phone rings, the music volume can be decreased, when you answer the call - it can be transferred to the bluetooth headset you just turned on, and the music volume returned to normal. (If you don't pause it). The fourth is part of the glitch free PA work. Simply put, it means that large sound samples are queued for your card using DMA, rather than interrupts and a sound buffer. Fundamentally, your processor can sleep while your music is playing. So PulseAudio gives us support for simultaneous sound from multiple applications, support for headsets and other output devices, support for user friendly manipulation of the volume, and improved power management while playing audio. This comes at a cost of finding bugs in the audio drivers which should/will be fixed anyway as time goes on. Scott [0] another example here is Tracker; which we deployed and subsequently removed. The removal was because it was clear that users were not benefiting from it, thus the cost was not warranted. -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
So in essence Scott, due to what you've highlighted as a lack of testing input during the pre production lifecycle phases, your suggesting that end users should endure the brunt of testing? As Ubuntu needs to move forward rapidly, being cutting edge and cant be so highly concerned with the risk of regressions? Yes, pulse audio was implemented. Yes, it was a disaster and even the upstream developer head more or less said so about Ubuntu's implementation. It was half baked. So too is Compiz, with all its incompatibilities with things like 3d OpenGL, that Ubuntu decided to enable by default even though we all know that key architectural items are missing like GEM. Lots of new users clambered onto the look at my cool wobbly windows Linux stuff then were disheartened when they realised that it didnt work properly, and that there is many other visible bugs in the Ubuntu desktop experience. A bug in NM I reported way back in the alpha still isnt fixed, that for my user experience, is a nuisance. Cruft remover was poorly tested and entered production in a problematic state. I could go on, but I wont. If Ubuntu and Canonical are truly serious about quality, clearly the professionals amongst us who sport big cowboy spurs with a good ol wild western release philosophy need to be tamed. Otherwise, we might as well all join Fedora. Thats not the Ubuntu I want to be involved in. I want to contribute towards a robust system that provides a quality desktop user experience. I'd like to reinforce Andrew Morton's comments when he expressed an observation that too many kernel developers focus on new features without resolving existing problems. We are far better off focusing on improving the testing phases than dumping it on end users. We will only alienate new users and limit the strategic growth of Ubuntu if we go all cowboy. Regards Nullack -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
On Wed, 2009-02-11 at 00:53 +1100, Null Ack wrote: So in essence Scott, due to what you've highlighted as a lack of testing input during the pre production lifecycle phases, your suggesting that end users should endure the brunt of testing? As Ubuntu needs to move forward rapidly, being cutting edge and cant be so highly concerned with the risk of regressions? We very much rely on our early adopters, who track our development releases, to perform testing. That's been very much Ubuntu's model from the start, and continues to be. While a discussion about alternative testing models would be interesting, it wouldn't be on-topic for this particular thread. Right now, those complaining about PulseAudio are running jaunty. This is a release of Ubuntu that is in development. Rather than complaining, those early adopters would do better to file _good_ bug reports: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html Yes, we won't get to every single bug report filed; there are many tens of thousands more users testing jaunty early than there are developers who can fix the bugs. But by receiving lots of good quality ones, our QA team will be able to identify the most important issues and we will be able to assign appropriate developers to look at them. Other bug reports can be collated as feedback to our upstreams; most likely the kernel, but occasionally the PulseAudio author. We are not Microsoft, and this is not Windows. The Operating System you are using is very much still in development, and you are participating in that development process. Every six monthly release sees major changes in core subsystems such as video, audio and input. Sometimes this will cause a regression or breakage for a subset of users. The important thing is that: 1) they do not need to upgrade, the release they are using is supported for a further year at least! 2) provided good bug reports are filed by those who can do so, there are good chances that the regression will be fixed by the next release - which is only 6 months away! For those that need utmost stability, we have Long Term Support releases every couple of years; we put extra effort into bug fixing for these, and try to avoid any large subsystem changes. Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
Scott James Remnant wrote: It's not that simple, in fact I'd go as far to say that we should never adopt new things is a very dangerous position to take. Thanks for posting, James. There were many excellent points in your reply. After reading it, I do agree with you. However, I will probably stop recommending the latest stable release to non-hacker friends though, and tell them to install the latest LTS instead. Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
Am 16.01.2009 um 16:58 schrieb Liam Zwitser: I assume that most people don´t want to have to restart their pc when the GUI chrashes. I assume most people don't want their GUI to crash at all. That's a serious data loss each time, after all. If your X crashes from time to time that's unfortunate for you, but a good thing for Ubuntu as you get the chance to report and track down a bug. MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it off. Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up: alt f2 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf Section ServerFlags Option DontZap no EndSection The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those millions of power-users do. It astounds me how people just forget about Ubuntu's goals and aspiritions in light of this issue. It isn't doing much for user friendliness when the community of contributors is using bad names on those new users Ubuntu strives to be gentle to and then treating them like outsiders. It isn't /likely/ for someone to hit C-A-B (although it's been done once or twice by yours truly, particularly with graphics tools), but the immediate issue is that we have a key combination which, without a moment's question, eradicates one's session from existence. No session saving, no notice, no sensitivity to whether the keyboard is grabbed or another application is handling the event. It just happens no matter what. Further, it relies on common keys. Sysrq K is alright since nobody tends to use the Sys RQ key, but Ctrl and Alt are both everyday modifier keys and Backspace is a natural key for deleting stuff. We want our users to feel free exploring Ubuntu without the risk of wiping out the system (within reason, of course). Hopefully they can gain a trust of themselves and the system that way, start paying more attention to the text on the screen and learning what it all means. One thing I know is that a single catastrophic event like tinkering led to the loss of two hour's work when I pressed Ctrl Alt Backspace causes someone to doubt the value of that exploring. Then there's another user reliant on others for resolving all issues related to the computer. Something interesting I've learned in an Ubuntu Forums thread is that a surprising number of people who want this key combo to stay don't actually use it for its intended purpose (to reset X when it is crashed). Instead, they use it as a shortcut for logging out. Doing that is risky, messy and inadequate. Perhaps if logging out (with session saving) was mapped to Ctrl Alt Backspace we wouldn't have as many bothered users. Bye, -Dylan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
If your X crashes from time to time that's unfortunate for you, but a good thing for Ubuntu as you get the chance to report and track down a bug. Come on, are you kidding me? That attitude towards user-friendliness isn't going to help Ubuntu at all. Sorry but a users X issues doesn't help Ubuntu. CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE is a standard for many people. Though it isn't something that would normally be used, but when needed saves a lot of time. But get serious, having to reboot your system isn't going to increase bug reports for X crashes. In fact I'd argue to say people will be less likely to file a bug report, due to the added time and aggravation of rebooting the system. Point is, the ability to quickly and easily restart X is an invaluable feature. It seems like a regression to remove such a standardized usage. --Original Message-- From: Markus Hitter Sender: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com To: Liam Zwitser Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? Sent: Feb 10, 2009 10:02 Am 16.01.2009 um 16:58 schrieb Liam Zwitser: I assume that most people don´t want to have to restart their pc when the GUI chrashes. I assume most people don't want their GUI to crash at all. That's a serious data loss each time, after all. If your X crashes from time to time that's unfortunate for you, but a good thing for Ubuntu as you get the chance to report and track down a bug. MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
Am 10.02.2009 um 14:33 schrieb Scott James Remnant: On Sun, 2009-02-01 at 22:53 +0100, Martin Olsson wrote: PS. I think Lennart is doing a _terrific_ job; I'm hoping Ubuntu technical board understands the need to be careful about merging new stuff to avoid regressions. This experience has been quiet painful for me and I suspect there is other people still out there with PA related regressions. DS. It's not that simple, in fact I'd go as far to say that we should never adopt new things is a very dangerous position to take. Isn't this conclusion pretty much an overstatement? New things shall be adopted, of course. Nevertheless, regressions are very painful. They actually stop people from adopting new technology, after all. For an example, I currently don't run 9.04 alpha because it (yet again) broke support for the monitor resolution I need. Because of this, I didn't even notice the new pulseaudio. Undoubtly, efforts to avoid regressions are a very good thing. One possible solution is to offer the possibility to roll back to or keep the previous technology. Perhaps you want to have a look at other distros to get an idea on how they deal with this challenge: http://www.nabble.com/HEADSUP-usb2-usb4bsd-to-become-default-in- GENERIC-td21866690.html MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 16:31 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: Undoubtly, efforts to avoid regressions are a very good thing. One possible solution is to offer the possibility to roll back to or keep the previous technology. Perhaps you want to have a look at other distros to get an idea on how they deal with this challenge: As far as I'm aware, there aren't any distributions doing 6-monthly releases that deal with this challenge. Those that do use longer release cycles, with more time for testing and bug fixing. (Indeed, the most obvious other distribution that performs a 6-monthly release - Fedora - is arguably even more bleeding edge and less conservative than we are!) Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard. Should we remove all the abilities that may damage the system? Where does the line get drawn? The C-A-B is an easy thing to learn and avoid, but a powerful resource when needed. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:02:51 To: Clive Wagenaarclivewagen...@gmail.com Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it off. Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up: alt f2 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf Section ServerFlags Option DontZap no EndSection The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those millions of power-users do. It astounds me how people just forget about Ubuntu's goals and aspiritions in light of this issue. It isn't doing much for user friendliness when the community of contributors is using bad names on those new users Ubuntu strives to be gentle to and then treating them like outsiders. It isn't /likely/ for someone to hit C-A-B (although it's been done once or twice by yours truly, particularly with graphics tools), but the immediate issue is that we have a key combination which, without a moment's question, eradicates one's session from existence. No session saving, no notice, no sensitivity to whether the keyboard is grabbed or another application is handling the event. It just happens no matter what. Further, it relies on common keys. Sysrq K is alright since nobody tends to use the Sys RQ key, but Ctrl and Alt are both everyday modifier keys and Backspace is a natural key for deleting stuff. We want our users to feel free exploring Ubuntu without the risk of wiping out the system (within reason, of course). Hopefully they can gain a trust of themselves and the system that way, start paying more attention to the text on the screen and learning what it all means. One thing I know is that a single catastrophic event like tinkering led to the loss of two hour's work when I pressed Ctrl Alt Backspace causes someone to doubt the value of that exploring. Then there's another user reliant on others for resolving all issues related to the computer. Something interesting I've learned in an Ubuntu Forums thread is that a surprising number of people who want this key combo to stay don't actually use it for its intended purpose (to reset X when it is crashed). Instead, they use it as a shortcut for logging out. Doing that is risky, messy and inadequate. Perhaps if logging out (with session saving) was mapped to Ctrl Alt Backspace we wouldn't have as many bothered users. Bye, -Dylan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
Scott, Scott James Remnant escreveu: For those that need utmost stability, we have Long Term Support releases every couple of years; we put extra effort into bug fixing for these, and try to avoid any large subsystem changes. and yet, pulseaudio was introduced in Hardy, the LTS release. I am using Ubuntu since Dapper and frankly I can't really see the trend I expected: much difference in innovation levels in LTS and ordinary releases. This is good... and bad. I agree with the main points in your last message prior to this one, but I would expect that a more conservative approach in respect to LTS releases. I actually think it makes sense to risk breaking things ordinary releases. This gives the end user a snapshot of the best that has happened in the world in the last 6 months (which seems to be a common release cycle in the industry), in a moderately ready-to-use stable package. I find it perfect for my personal needs, and I recommend it for most domestic users I personally know. This is IMO currently well done, and I find that the ocasional bump comes with the territory, as long as it is properly documented with a suitable workaround ASAP. I just join the choir in the PulseAudio argument, in that it was introduced (IMHO) in Ubuntu 6 months ahead of schedule. regards FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How do I stop this ...
Hi Maurice, Are these Ubuntu mailing lists, like the ubuntu-devel-discuss to whom you addressed your question? Presuming so, go to this page ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/), click on the link for any given mailing list there that you want to unsubscribe from, scroll down, enter your email address and click the Unsubscribe or edit options button. That should just about take care of it. Let me know if this works. I've never heard of someone accidentally signing up for all these mailing lists, so I'm a little uncertain. I hope you enjoy Linux, Evan Murphy 2009/2/3 Ink Pot mypenand...@comcast.net I spent some time signing up for Linux the other day and must have inadvertently signed up to receive hundreds of different emails. Much as I love Linux I do not need to receive all the various emails that are sent from a huge number of people. How do I stop these arriving each day? Thanks Maurice Maurice Eastwick MEDIA DELIVERY MATTERS Studio: 603 546-6066 E-Mail: maurice_me...@comcast.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 14:13 +, Scott James Remnant wrote: Yes, we won't get to every single bug report filed; there are many tens of thousands more users testing jaunty early than there are developers who can fix the bugs. And that leads to... If you're someone that knows C and currently isn't sending patches, please take a look through the bugs and see if there's anything you can hack on. You don't have to know how it works to do that. A weekend can often get you caught up on what surrounds the little chunk of code you need to touch. If you don't know C, triage! -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
Am 10.02.2009 um 16:35 schrieb Scott James Remnant: On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 16:31 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: Undoubtly, efforts to avoid regressions are a very good thing. One possible solution is to offer the possibility to roll back to or keep the previous technology. Perhaps you want to have a look at other distros to get an idea on how they deal with this challenge: As far as I'm aware, there aren't any distributions doing 6-monthly releases that deal with this challenge. FreeBSD has two continuous streams of development: Current (bleeding edge) and Stable. Additionally, they provide bugfixes for at least one older release (similar to Ubuntu's LTS). Instead of stair- stepping from release to release, they improve things piece by piece and fork releases when it's convenient. Not exactly every six months, but similarly often: http://www.freebsd.org/releases/index.html This strategy is very convenient, as things never break down completely. You can always deal with single problems, while the remaining parts of the OS stay intact. No waiting for releases either, simply subscribe to one of the continuous streams. The backside is, you have to backport each new feature at least once. MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tuesday 10 February 2009 15:57:02 Justin M. Wray wrote: Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard. Should we remove all the abilities that may damage the system? Where does the line get drawn? The C-A-B is an easy thing to learn and avoid, but a powerful resource when needed. I agree 100% ^^ -- clivewagen...@gmail.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tuesday 10 February 2009 15:02:51 Dylan McCall wrote: The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those millions of power-users do. Ok, i get your point from ubuntu being simple etc. Not sure it will help them in the long run, as they will have to hard boot when xserver hangs and maybe never know that ctl alt backspace was ever a option (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc will all also 'dumbed down' too) Like you say it is not a problem for the power users, just a small irritation. I image that the developer of Ubuntu tweak program will just have one more thing to add to his program for jaunty :) Stay Well -- clive wagenaar -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:35:50 + Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 16:31 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: Undoubtly, efforts to avoid regressions are a very good thing. One possible solution is to offer the possibility to roll back to or keep the previous technology. Perhaps you want to have a look at other distros to get an idea on how they deal with this challenge: As far as I'm aware, there aren't any distributions doing 6-monthly releases that deal with this challenge. Those that do use longer release cycles, with more time for testing and bug fixing. (Indeed, the most obvious other distribution that performs a 6-monthly release - Fedora - is arguably even more bleeding edge and less conservative than we are!) True, but Fedora is meant to be a bleeding edge distro that feeds into Red Hat's actual product. For Ubuntu (at least historically) each relaease IS the product. It sounds like we are evolving to a model of three Fedora releases followed by a RHEL release. If that's the case, I guess it just needs to be more clearly communicated. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Any news on skype+pulseaudio+intel_hda_realtek ?
--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Felipe Figueiredo phils...@gmail.com wrote: I just join the choir in the PulseAudio argument, in that it was introduced (IMHO) in Ubuntu 6 months ahead of schedule. Even if it were introduced prematurely[0], there is no sense in backing it out as a default in 8.04.3. What *does* make sense is to fix the highest priority issues plaguing it. If we can't resolve them outright (since, well, that approach requires backporting alsa-lib, alsa-plugins, and adobe-flashplugin at the least, and *that* process would be painstaking), we can try working around them. I have a hardy branch[1] that has tracked such necessary changes and that could do with testing. Feel free to branch and bang on it. Remember that integration is *hard* /barbie. It always seems easier when you're on the finger-pointing side instead of the StableReleaseUpdates side. Thanks, Dan [0] It wasn't introduced prematurely; it wasn't integrated fully. That's what Lennart decries - an incomplete solution. Obviously we can improve on that front. [1] https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/pulseaudio/hardy -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:59, Clive Wagenaar clivewagen...@gmail.comwrote: (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc will all also 'dumbed down' too) Is this true? If it is, then C-A-B should be left disabled. -- hacker != cracker -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 17:42 -0600, Nergar -blank- wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:59, Clive Wagenaar clivewagen...@gmail.com wrote: (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc will all also 'dumbed down' too) Is this true? If it is, then C-A-B should be left disabled. -- hacker != cracker It is already affecting fedora, came across this 'new feature' when trying out F11 Alpha a few days back to test BTRFS.. Quote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Alpha_release_notes#X_Server X Server The key combination Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to kill the X server has been disabled by default. To get this behaviour back, add the the line Option DontZap false to the ServerFlags section in xorg.conf. end quote -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 17:42 -0600, Nergar -blank- wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:59, Clive Wagenaar clivewagen...@gmail.com wrote: (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc will all also 'dumbed down' too) Is this true? If it is, then C-A-B should be left disabled. -- hacker != cracker More chats about it here: http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/2009/01/since-we-all-know-x-is-nowhere-near.html -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Justin M. Wray wray.justin.ubu...@gmail.com wrote: Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard. This is poorly conceived thinking, but switching it off is straight up naive. This is a power user tool and can accidently happen, and is bad when accidents happen, so let's take it away. Knee-jerk reaction to dumb down the system. The correct solution is not dead-simple to implement, but it works: When you C-A-B, grab the whole screen and put up a confirmation dialog like gksudo does. You can't switch desktops off it (CAB happens sometimes while swapping around virtual desktops and landing in a text editor, trying to backspace over stuff), and it's right in your face. It says In 10 seconds I will kill X and reload it. This will destroy all of your work. Click the big red CANCEL button below now or hit SPACE! If the X server is frozen, the dialog can't be shown, can't be clicked, can't be touched. All you have to do is modify X to take an option ZapProgram /usr/bin/uzapme which gets the $DISPLAY environment passed to it. uzapme reads the user's configuration, executes a child gzapme or kazzapme and waits 10 seconds for the child to return. If the child doesn't exit favorably, i.e. complains it can't draw on X or just hangs (because of no user input, or because it tried to talk to X and got hung up), uzapme kills it and returns an unfavorable state to X. X then executes the ZAP code. This works because it relies on X's zap code to be executed. If CAB can cause X to exit, then it can instead cause X to run a child process and wait() for a result. If doing such would inherently hang and fail to terminate X under conditions of the child returning status ESCREWTHISTERMINATEX then obviously X is so borked right now that the zap code wouldn't have functioned anyway and you would have had to unplug it and plug it back in. Should we remove all the abilities that may damage the system? No, just throw up a single safety net. For many unsafe operations this is '-f', so on a real (not Fedora) system you 'rm -r /' and it goes do you want to remove these files? because you probably did something damaging; whereas you 'rm -rf /' and it goes oh, you know what you doing, move zig. If the user's dumb enough to use '--force-all' or not click a button marked Press this or your computer is effectively going to crash, it's now officially his fault. Where does the line get drawn? Usually in the sand, but sometimes on paper. In HTML the line gets drawn at an hr tag. The C-A-B is an easy thing to learn and avoid, but a powerful resource when needed. Same argument for magic sysrq keys... not for non-power-users, some people just want the OS to get out of the way. The REAL solution is to run everything through an X proxy that can lose the X server head, like 'screen' for X. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:02:51 To: Clive Wagenaarclivewagen...@gmail.com Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it off. Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up: alt f2 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf Section ServerFlags Option DontZap no EndSection The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those millions of power-users do. It astounds me how people just forget about Ubuntu's goals and aspiritions in light of this issue. It isn't doing much for user friendliness when the community of contributors is using bad names on those new users Ubuntu strives to be gentle to and then treating them like outsiders. It isn't /likely/ for someone to hit C-A-B (although it's been done once or twice by yours truly, particularly with graphics tools), but the immediate issue is that we have a key combination which, without a moment's question, eradicates one's session from existence. No session saving, no notice, no sensitivity to whether the keyboard is grabbed or another application is handling the event. It just happens no matter what. Further, it relies on common keys. Sysrq K is alright since nobody tends to use the Sys RQ key, but Ctrl and Alt are both everyday modifier keys and Backspace is a natural key for deleting stuff. We want our users to feel free exploring Ubuntu without the risk of wiping out the system (within reason, of course). Hopefully
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 19:06 -0500, John Moser wrote: The correct solution is not dead-simple to implement, but it works: When you C-A-B, grab the whole screen and put up a confirmation dialog like gksudo does. You can't switch desktops off it (CAB happens sometimes while swapping around virtual desktops and landing in a text editor, trying to backspace over stuff), and it's right in your face. It says In 10 seconds I will kill X and reload it. This will destroy all of your work. Click the big red CANCEL button below now or hit SPACE! This is how I would say it should be done :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 19:10 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: I don't particularly care for the deicision that was made, but it's been made, so there's little point rehashing it now. Scott K Cool, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:37:49 -0500 John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: I don't particularly care for the deicision that was made, but it's been made, so there's little point rehashing it now. Fallacy. I don't particularly care for the decision that every computer should run Windows, but it's been made, so there's little point in rehashing it now. Do you see what I did there? Incorrect decisions need to be questioned, fought, and reversed; actually pushing a decision through neither makes it right nor permanent. In the scientific community they spend time trying to disprove gravity and evolution, things we pretty much damn well know are 100% accurate; if you feel something is wrong or just could be done a better way it's worth pursuing. This is engineering, not science. There is no single answer that is right for everyone. It's 9 days until feature freeze, so if you want it different I suggest sending patches. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:37:49 -0500 John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: This is engineering, not science. There is no single answer that is right for everyone. Engineering is science. How do you think engines get improved on? This is computer science... software engineering, particularly. It's 9 days until feature freeze, so if you want it different I suggest sending patches. Obviously given the solutions I outlined above, 9 days is not enough. You would want to rewrite some stuff in a big, complex, and critical software product; then you'd have to test it, a lot. AFAIK things get kicked out of feature freeze for not being stable enough or well-tested before freezing-- which, btw, is a very good idea. My point was more that if you think it's wrong, you should suggest and continue to advocate a better solution, even after all is done and said. Maybe the NEXT release will turn around and do something different; maybe it'll be FIVE releases down the line. Hell, maybe Xorg gets replaced with something much better someone came up with this morning over coffee. Things eventually change, sometimes the changes get changed. If you don't like it, keep thinking of better ways. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 19:06 -0500, John Moser wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Justin M. Wray wray.justin.ubu...@gmail.com wrote: Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard. This is poorly conceived thinking, but switching it off is straight up naive. This is a power user tool and can accidently happen, and is bad when accidents happen, so let's take it away. Knee-jerk reaction to dumb down the system. The correct solution is not dead-simple to implement, but it works: When you C-A-B, grab the whole screen and put up a confirmation dialog like gksudo does. Not dead-simple...in fact: impossible! The point of C-A-B is when X has crashed or locked. It by definition cannot do what you are suggesting in such a situation. I'm still in favor of OpenSUSE's way. And this was already discussed on ubuntu-devel. It seemed that many agreed that either press hold or press twice (a la OpenSUSE) were good ways to do it, with press twice having the discoverability bonus of it didn't work so try again and the code bonus of already existing. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:26:06 -0500 John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:37:49 -0500 John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: This is engineering, not science. There is no single answer that is right for everyone. Engineering is science. How do you think engines get improved on? This is computer science... software engineering, particularly. Science is a pursuit of knowledge. Engineering applies it to practical problems in the real world. Engineering involves trade offs between different requirements. That's what happened here. There is not one absolute right answer, but a balance between competing requirements. It's 9 days until feature freeze, so if you want it different I suggest sending patches. Obviously given the solutions I outlined above, 9 days is not enough. You would want to rewrite some stuff in a big, complex, and critical software product; then you'd have to test it, a lot. AFAIK things get kicked out of feature freeze for not being stable enough or well-tested before freezing-- which, btw, is a very good idea. Right, which gets to why I was saying I think more arguing about it is rather pointless at the moment. My point was more that if you think it's wrong, you should suggest and continue to advocate a better solution, even after all is done and said. Maybe the NEXT release will turn around and do something different; maybe it'll be FIVE releases down the line. Hell, maybe Xorg gets replaced with something much better someone came up with this morning over coffee. Things eventually change, sometimes the changes get changed. Sure. In this case we are following an upstream change, so upstream is probably the best place to pursue getting it changed again. If you don't like it, keep thinking of better ways. Of course. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 19:06 -0500, John Moser wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Justin M. Wray wray.justin.ubu...@gmail.com wrote: Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard. Not dead-simple...in fact: impossible! The point of C-A-B is when X has crashed or locked. It by definition cannot do what you are suggesting in such a situation. By definition, if X is completely incapable of executing any additional codepath, it is itself completely incapable of terminating when C-A-B is pressed. C-A-B doesn't work when X fails to actually obtain and respond to user input; it does work when X fails to pass user input along to X clients, fails to update the display, fails to respond to X clients, etc. If the entire X process enters a state from which it cannot continue execution, C-A-B does not work at all; it's not a kernel function. The solution I described was one which will fail to properly execute when X cannot present clients to the user or properly deliver input to the user, i.e. when it's lost control of the display, driver, etc. If X can still handle a zap, however, then it can also spawn a child process and react to that child process' failure to properly execute (i.e. notification by return code). One other note is you really need to release the mouse from whoever has it if you implement this. I've had qemu crash, holding the mouse, and now I no longer have mouse/keyboard in X aside from the ability to ctrl-alt-F1 and execute another qemu to grab/release the mouse with. Also nice would be a button that says Task Manager and brings up a task manager, in display-frozen view, so that misbehaving mouse grabbers can't have the mouse back until you kill them. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
