Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 14:53 -0400, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > P.S.: If the OP is not a troll, I don't know what is. > http://redenaz.deviantart.com/art/Behind-the-Keyboard-Trolls-76598407 Do NOT feed the trolls! Hug them. Martin, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Mat Tomaszewski < mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com> wrote: > So this is actually the only good and valid point in this, otherwise > exaggerated, rant. > > I'm currently reviewing the download process on Ubuntu.com and been > looking into various help and support options that the user is presented > with. The non-paid choices basically are: > > - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich > resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) > - Forums – lots of information noise, very difficult to locate the right > thread (or even find out where to start) to someone not already > accustomed with how forums work > - Mailing lists – the UI the user is presented with when subscribing can > be intimidating and does not provide a helpful "how to" information > - IRC – most users never heard of it and never used it. Very niche and > mysterious way of communication from average user's standpoint > > I'd personally hesitate to offer any of the above to my wife, mum, or > anyone who I know is not deeply into "all things web". Would you? I'm > very curious what are the experiences of people here, would be great to > hear your stories and opinions on that. Hi. I'm not a regular here, but I feel compelled to comment on this point. You're right, I wouldn't expect my mom to be able to RTFM and figure out how to, say, recover a corrupt grub installation or set up LVM. Similarly, I wouldn't expect her to be able to recover a corrupted registry on a Windows box without a lot of help. Documentation simply isn't going to be read by this class of user, regardless of whether it comes from ubuntu.com or microsoft.com. When a problem or question arises, the course of action is the same regardless of what OS is in use: first, ask my dad; if that fails, ask me. However, since installing Ubuntu and showing her how to launch Firefox and Skype, I've noticed a real difference: the number of problems and questions that arise have dropped to zero. The computer just works. Examples of things I used to hear regularly during the pre-Ubuntu era, and have never heard since: - Why is it so slow? - What is this [insert annoyware/malware du jour] and why is it here? - Why did my computer reboot without my permission, after I explicitly selected the "do not reboot after installing updates" option? - Everything is broken! Nothing at all is working! There are also some questions that I, as the de facto administrator of the machine, no longer have to ask myself: - Why do I need this third party bloatware just to use the printer, and why does that bloatware include a process that eats 90%+ CPU, even at times when nothing printer-related is going on? (In Ubuntu, of course, it Just Works(tm)). - Where can I find software to do XYZZY for Windows? How do I know what I'm downloading? How can I estimate the trustworthiness of the author? (apt-cache search ; apt-get install. Or, Synaptic, if you prefer). - Looks like the hard drive crashed and will need to be replaced. Do I have a day to sacrifice reinstalling applications and drivers interactively? (Install Ubuntu, feed apt-get a list of packages from the old system, restore /home). In short: the documentation may not make a completely non-technical user able to install and administer an Ubuntu system herself, but that's irrelevant. That user won't be installing or administering her own Windows system, either -- someone else will be doing that. The difference is that with Ubuntu, she will have to call that someone else a lot less often. Ubuntu makes her life easier, as well as mine. As for the quality of the documentation, in my personal opinion it's usually incomparably better than that provided by Microsoft ... but hey, YMMV, and as I said, it's irrelevant anyway. P.S.: If the OP is not a troll, I don't know what is. > > Cheers, > > Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
2009/8/26 Mat Tomaszewski : > - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich > resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) > - Forums – lots of information noise, very difficult to locate the right > thread (or even find out where to start) to someone not already > accustomed with how forums work > - Mailing lists – the UI the user is presented with when subscribing can > be intimidating and does not provide a helpful "how to" information > - IRC – most users never heard of it and never used it. Very niche and > mysterious way of communication from average user's standpoint > I note that launchpad answers is missing off the support options on that download page. Seems answers has always played second fiddle to _all_ other support options, which seem strange to me. Cheers, Al. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Hi Mat, On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Mat Tomaszewski wrote: > I'm currently reviewing the download process on Ubuntu.com and been > looking into various help and support options that the user is presented > with. The non-paid choices basically are: > > - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich > resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) help.ubuntu.com (which reproduces the desktop help system) is intended to be helpful to beginners as well as more technical users. Primarily, it should be useful to beginners. If it's not, then that is something to explore with the documentation team and something we'll be keen on fixing. If you've got any specific feedback, then I suggest that you open a discussion on the ubuntu-doc mailing list so that we can develop that and look into making some improvements. Obviously individual items can be reported as bugs on the ubuntu-docs package. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Aug 26, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Mat Tomaszewski wrote: > > I'd personally hesitate to offer any of the above to my wife, mum, or > anyone who I know is not deeply into "all things web". Would you? I'm > very curious what are the experiences of people here, would be great > to > hear your stories and opinions on that. > Most likely not. If I turned somebody on to Ubuntu that wasn't a stranger on the street, I would be forced to admit to myself that most likely *I* will become the main support resource, which will probably end up with me posting to forums/IRC/lists. At least until such time as they are educated enough to be more self sufficient. -Steve -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Conrad Knauer wrote: > >> All documentation is useless to beginners >> > > ??? And have you visited the forums? > > So this is actually the only good and valid point in this, otherwise exaggerated, rant. I'm currently reviewing the download process on Ubuntu.com and been looking into various help and support options that the user is presented with. The non-paid choices basically are: - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) - Forums – lots of information noise, very difficult to locate the right thread (or even find out where to start) to someone not already accustomed with how forums work - Mailing lists – the UI the user is presented with when subscribing can be intimidating and does not provide a helpful "how to" information - IRC – most users never heard of it and never used it. Very niche and mysterious way of communication from average user's standpoint I'd personally hesitate to offer any of the above to my wife, mum, or anyone who I know is not deeply into "all things web". Would you? I'm very curious what are the experiences of people here, would be great to hear your stories and opinions on that. Cheers, Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
My troll-detection senses are tingling on this, but in case you are just frustrated user, let me reply... On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Jonathan Taylor wrote: > Ubuntu may be a very nice OS, but until the average person can use it, > it will not amount to much. The most difficult thing for 'average users' to pick up on when learning how to use computers is the mouse (seriously; as in, holding it steady when clicking). Ubuntu is all about pointing and clicking; my 4 1/2 year old has been using it since well before she started preschool. My neighbor, a lady around retirement age, has been using Ubuntu for a couple years now. In terms of "using" Ubuntu, the average person can easily. > Using Ubuntu is like buying a half built > car. Then you have to guess at how to build the other half. Assuming that your hardware is supported by free (libre) drivers, Ubuntu should 'just work'. You should not have to 'build' (compile) anything yourself unless you *want* to... > All documentation is useless to beginners ??? And have you visited the forums? > and you can't even install most things without using the terminal. ??? Click "Add/Remove..." > So, why is it sooo much easier to install things in Windows and Mac? ??? DEB files are exceptionally easy to install and if you're installing them from a repository, its easier than Win or Mac. > You'll never be more than a curiosity until this is fixed. Could you provide us with the specific trouble you were having, rather than making false generalizations? CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Advanced?
2009/8/25 Jan-Michael Heller : > Hi there, > > is singed up this mailinglist, because i thought of having an > Ubuntu-flavor for corporate use. > I experienced that ubuntu in its form now (8.04~9.04) is a bit too automatic > to > handle well and leave customers long-time unsupported. I know for some > people out there, the fact that sometime anything automates wrong in > ubuntu, gives money to them, because they get payed for support. > But aren't we all interested in a system, that we can hand-out to anybody > and it will just run and be easy to maintain? > Full automation is one aspect, that makes it easy for homeusers. But in > a corporate environment a teached person (should) handle with the > problems the users have. You are talking about LTS here :) Dapper LTS was very strongly supported and was very very polished. Hardy is still the same but I am using bloatin edge versions, so I can't surerly say that it is rock stable. However, again, it was very polished and robust last time I used it. > What, if there would be a long-time-supported or what ever called > flavour of ubuntu, that is easy to maintain, meaning: > No automated driverbuilds at bootup and > no changings in versions, of course Those drivebuilds happens only after you upgrade. Hardy had nice bunch of upgrades for nvidia and stuff, but now I think it is rather calm. LTS doesn't change versions of software unless you're using backports repository (which is disabled by default). > only security updates You can do it already by yourself. Just disable all other repositories excluding security ones - via /etc/apt/sources.list or System => Administration => Software Sources. > great robustnes: > - linux - just proofen hardware-detection at bootup, no underlying Just ensure boxes have up-to-date hwdata package. Otherway, I think it is already there. > skripts, that generate configurationfiles, for everything they see and > keep it forever > - better tested (community is there to help, some unixers would like > easy-to-maintain systems for ther families too) But it is already tested a lot and it is easy to maintain for families, there are lot of stories about grandma using Ubuntu floating around. > - A centralized configuration that is under /etc/ and not too often > changed by scripts, only if that is explicitly necessary. It is already done, as a basic principle of Debian and therefore Ubuntu too. > And a bit more tidied-up configuration-tools that really use /etc/ > like the admin does. Yes, I agree, some nice guis for some uncovered system settings would be nice. > Ubuntu was so nice and tidy, because of its debian-flavour in the > beginnig and now its too much affected by many skript-features, that > make your life hard. For example? As far as I know, you still can turn off all scripts and run the tidy ship. > Maybe someone knows, how Canonical thinks about corporate use of Ubuntu, > but good unix-systems are known for their robustness, and this is > something, that ubuntu is still missing a bit (make it just a little bit more > like > Knoppix) What exactly it miss? So far as I have seen there is no streamlined practice/doc/knowhow places about it, but Ubuntu is used in corps. Anyway, it is question to ask Canonical directly, but they offer lot of choices even for individual users now - begining with phone/email support and ending with serious problem solving. And even so - there are at least bunch of companies with very compentent specialists who dig Ubuntu/Debian as they work with such systems every day in their daily work. > And I am not an enemy of scripts, but they should be used with care. > > I hope someone understands me. > > regards > > Jan If you about serious about implementing Ubuntu in Enterprise and have concrete qestions about implementation - I suggest contact Canonical about it, because it will require serious expertise. Cheers, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: ubuntu
Hi Jo Jo Demetriou wrote: > I don't know who to contact, I downloaded ubuntu from a disc. It has > made my computer very slow as I still have windows on startup. How do I > uninstall it. It does not prompt you on the disc to uninstall. My guess is that you've installed using Wubi and you are now low on disk space. Try removing it using the Add/Remove tool from the control panel. -Jonathan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Gnome Phone Manager
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kyle Amadio wrote: > Will the final release Karmic version include the latest version of > gnome-phone-manager, there have been some bug fixes to the re-connect > function. The current build of 0.65 does not re-connect when a bluetooth > connected phone moves out of and then returns into range. I filed a bug on > this and the developers messaged that it was fixed in a later version than > we have in the repository. > > Really like the ease of sending SMS messages via the desktop, especially the > Evolution Address book Integration There has been no new version released yet, but I grabbed the fix from git: gnome-phone-manager (0.65-1ubuntu1) karmic; urgency=low * debian/patches/01-from-git-fix-gnome-bug-495278.patch: grab patch from git to fix reconnecting. (LP: #311541, LP: #86950) * debian/control: add Depends on evolution-data-server. (LP: #225306) Have a great day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkqU8vgACgkQRjrlnQWd1etrwgCfR1AaT2KYr6LXSU7yIhUkPxaX w2UAnirsCOSCIabvn+vpp4hEkBiha8Jo =xy4s -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: ubuntu ubiquity
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Thiago Braga Santana wrote: > I need to know how to pass a pressed.cfg file as an argument for program > ubiquity. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbiquityAutomation should help you get started with that. > When I'm trying to install, it stops at step 7 without displaying any error. > The preseed.cfg file is attached. You do not have a partition recipe set. Please note for future reference that attaching /var/log/syslog, /var/log/installer/debug (if present), and /var/log/partman, in addition to the preseed file, will help us debug any further problems you have. Also, in an email sent directly to me, you asked if it was possible to configure networking via ubiquity. It it not possible at present. You'll need to do an install via the alternate CD for that. Hope that helps, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Ubuntu may be a very nice OS, but until the average person can use it, it will not amount to much. Using Ubuntu is like buying a half built car. Then you have to guess at how to build the other half. All documentation is useless to beginners and you can't even install most things without using the terminal. So, why is it sooo much easier to install things in Windows and Mac? You'll never be more than a curiosity until this is fixed. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
ubuntu
I don't know who to contact, I downloaded ubuntu from a disc. It has made my computer very slow as I still have windows on startup. How do I uninstall it It does not prompt you on the disc to uninstall. Please help Thanks Jo<><>-- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Ubuntu Advanced?
Hi there, is singed up this mailinglist, because i thought of having an Ubuntu-flavor for corporate use. I experienced that ubuntu in its form now (8.04~9.04) is a bit too automatic to handle well and leave customers long-time unsupported. I know for some people out there, the fact that sometime anything automates wrong in ubuntu, gives money to them, because they get payed for support. But aren't we all interested in a system, that we can hand-out to anybody and it will just run and be easy to maintain? Full automation is one aspect, that makes it easy for homeusers. But in a corporate environment a teached person (should) handle with the problems the users have. What, if there would be a long-time-supported or what ever called flavour of ubuntu, that is easy to maintain, meaning: No automated driverbuilds at bootup and no changings in versions, of course only security updates great robustnes: - linux - just proofen hardware-detection at bootup, no underlying skripts, that generate configurationfiles, for everything they see and keep it forever - better tested (community is there to help, some unixers would like easy-to-maintain systems for ther families too) - A centralized configuration that is under /etc/ and not too often changed by scripts, only if that is explicitly necessary. And a bit more tidied-up configuration-tools that really use /etc/ like the admin does. Ubuntu was so nice and tidy, because of its debian-flavour in the beginnig and now its too much affected by many skript-features, that make your life hard. Maybe someone knows, how Canonical thinks about corporate use of Ubuntu, but good unix-systems are known for their robustness, and this is something, that ubuntu is still missing a bit (make it just a little bit more like Knoppix) And I am not an enemy of scripts, but they should be used with care. I hope someone understands me. regards Jan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
ubuntu ubiquity
Good afternoon. I need to know how to pass a pressed.cfg file as an argument for program ubiquity. When I'm trying to install, it stops at step 7 without displaying any error. The preseed.cfg file is attached. Regards. Thiago Santana preseed.cfg Description: Binary data -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
expand iptraf for new log format output
Hallo, I want to ask, how it is possible that I can change log format output of traffic which was transfered. Well I would rewrite iptraf to output new format, but how can I implement it correctly that it can provide in a offical release? The reason I want to do that is that another programme of me should read and analyse this data for summary the traffic, because of this I need a special log file format which uses a Tabulator as seperator and every time the same package size format in kB and even a special time stamp format and other format too like from whom was send the package, for example. Could this be possible that it could realeased as a new version when development is finised? best regards volker obhof -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Gnome Phone Manager
Will the final release Karmic version include the latest version of gnome-phone-manager, there have been some bug fixes to the re-connect function. The current build of 0.65 does not re-connect when a bluetooth connected phone moves out of and then returns into range. I filed a bug on this and the developers messaged that it was fixed in a later version than we have in the repository. Really like the ease of sending SMS messages via the desktop, especially the Evolution Address book Integration -- Regards Kyle Amadio International TV Shopping Systems +61 411707081 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Jack inclusion in Main
This has perhaps been the single biggest request of users of Ubuntu Studio. Eric in his 1st post has detailed the best reasons for it's inclusion. Even though I'm on hiatus from the project, I fully support this effort and hope it can happen. -Cory Kontros -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
