Re: Network Manager dependencies
Dale Amon wrote: > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 07:40:58PM -0500, Jordon Bedwell wrote: > > prefer to stay away from it, preference perhaps? But with preference > > comes the problem that NM relies on wpasupplicant and a couple of > > other wireless tools that we would absolutely never need on a server, > > unless we are crazy or there is some one-off sysadmin who has some > > crazy ideas. > > I agree for the most part... although there are appliances that > use mobile phone connection as a sysadmin emergency back door > to get at servers if the host facility backbone is down. Consider also the case of mobile servers, which have started to become available in retail: current devices are things like WiFi<->4G bridge routers, portable WiFi NAS devices, etc. We very much shouldn't limit our conception of what makes sense on a "server" to only that set of things that happens to make sense for large devices in racks in a data centre. That said, ifupdown can currently handle just about any type of network connection the administrator can imagine, including complexities like autofailover to VPN over PAN, or arbitrary ESSID WiFi activated by USB key or local presence of a bluetooth device. Where Network Manager shines is in the close userspace coordination of the selection and activation of network connections, considerably reducing the advance configuration necessary to adjust to a wide variety of network options, and allowing users to immediately begin to use hotplug network devices. So, rather than debating whether a "server" should be using Network Manager or ifupdown based on the networking technologies that one might imagine to be used for some arbitrary hardware in some arbitrary environment, we should instead consider how we expect the users of the system to interact with the system we use to define and configure the networks. Devices with a single user running interactive processes will likely be better served by Network Manager (or similar tools), as the user will want to be able to select from available networking options at will and receive notifications about the current state of the network. Devices with few interactive processes will likely be better served by ifupdown, as the administrator will want to configure the networking options once, and allow users to attach to network services exposed once the network comes up. Of course, as the tools continue to advance, some other selection may make sense in the future, but even then I think we should continue to debate the tools in terms of how the system is expected to be used, rather than what hardware is present, or into which environment we expect that hardware to be placed. -- Emmet HIKORY -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The place of the Ubuntu Software Center regarding Steam, Desura and others
I agree with Dylan. Valve is not likely to package their games because their purpose if I understand well is to make Steam a multi-plateform distribution software. I think that Ubuntu Software Center could only integrate their list of software to ease and centralize the search. But it would probably need cooperation from Valve and Desura. 2012/8/22 Dylan McCall > On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:00 PM, David Klasinc > wrote: > > Implementation wise, I think the best way would be if PPA system can be > > extended to offer necessary support for selling software. This way Steam, > > Desura and alike could offer a simple PPA. PlayOnLinux could probably do > > this already. > > > > Regards, > > David > > I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I think there is about a 0.1% chance > of Steam using a Debian package repository to install Linux software. > Their system is known for quickly and immediately updating games, as > soon as updates appear. This is very important to keep them in sync > with other players. Apt and dpkg don't offer that for free, and I > can't think of a practical reason beyond that for Valve to bother with > packaging everything when it can just be shipped in a standard format: > 'here are the game files: put them $somewhere'. > > The best we can do is anticipate that and think about software > installation in a world where some common applications manage the job > outside of Debian's tutelage. People use and like Desura (and likely > will Steam) and SC won't be replacing them, but maybe, with some very > simple common interfaces, it can augment them in a way that makes > sense. > > Dylan > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Nicolas MICHEL -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Network Manager dependencies
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 07:40:58PM -0500, Jordon Bedwell wrote: > prefer to stay away from it, preference perhaps? But with preference > comes the problem that NM relies on wpasupplicant and a couple of > other wireless tools that we would absolutely never need on a server, > unless we are crazy or there is some one-off sysadmin who has some > crazy ideas. I agree for the most part... although there are appliances that use mobile phone connection as a sysadmin emergency back door to get at servers if the host facility backbone is down. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Network Manager dependencies
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Dale Amon wrote: > I usually de-install it on servers. A server has the interfaces > and static IP addresses I tell it has and it should never, ever > even consider overriding those settings. > > NM is okay (usually) for portable luser devices, but not for > the rack. I think I would be a little bit upset if Ubuntu started defaulting to NM on servers. It brings nothing better or new to the table and as everybody already mentioned it's focus is primarily mobile users. I have it on my laptop, wouldn't live without it, but on my desktop I remove it and use ifupdown because removing NM allows me to remove dependencies I'll never need or use and ones that I wouldn't file a ticket over because so many other users need it. I guess this whole NM issue might fall under the tasksel issue, I prefer not to use it but a friend of mine does...you prefer NM I prefer to stay away from it, preference perhaps? But with preference comes the problem that NM relies on wpasupplicant and a couple of other wireless tools that we would absolutely never need on a server, unless we are crazy or there is some one-off sysadmin who has some crazy ideas. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Network Manager dependencies
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 04:56:40PM -0400, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre wrote: > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 3:24 AM, Tom H wrote: > > IMO, we'll end up sooner or later using NM on X-less boxes by default > > It might be the case eventually, but we're not there yet. I usually de-install it on servers. A server has the interfaces and static IP addresses I tell it has and it should never, ever even consider overriding those settings. NM is okay (usually) for portable luser devices, but not for the rack. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Network Manager dependencies
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 3:24 AM, Tom H wrote: > IMO, we'll end up sooner or later using NM on X-less boxes by default It might be the case eventually, but we're not there yet. > NM on Fedora can now handle bonding and bridging by reading > "/etc/sysconfig/netwok-scripts/ifcfg-*" files. > > I was curious about whether NM could do the same by reading > "/etc/network/interfaces" so I've just tried to install NM in an > X-less Quantal VM. Not by reading /e/n/i; but bonding and bridging support was added in NetworkManager 0.9.4.0. There is currently no way to configure it besides the rather opaque files in /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections. This will be fixed eventually, but you'll still see the configuration methods come up in nm-applet first, before it's added to the command-line configuration tool or to the /e/n/i parser (and parsing that is difficult, if not dangerous anyway). > > "apt-get install network-manager" results in: > [...] > and > > "apt-get install network-manager -o APT::Install-Recommends=false" results in: > [...] > So, even an installation of NM without its "Recommends" (which isn't > something that I like to do or, AFAIK, something that's recommended) > results in the installation of packages that are only needed by a DE, > like dconf-gsettings-backend, dconf-service, glib-networking, > glib-networking-common, glib-networking-services, > gsettings-desktop-schemas. > [...] > Could NM's "Depends" and "Recommends" be pared down for an X-less > use-case? Thanks. "We'll burn that bridge when we get there." :) Seriously though; I agree that some of these requirements are unfortunate, especially with all this coming from glib-networking (which I'll look to make sure is really required). Any help you can provide to reducing these requirements and making NetworkManager suitable on X-less systems is definitely welcome. I recommend you come hang around on #nm on Freenode if it's the case; this is where the upstream NetworkManager development gets done. Regards, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com 4096R/EE018C93 1967 8F7D 03A1 8F38 732E FF82 C126 33E1 EE01 8C93 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Network Manager dependencies
Excerpts from Tom H's message of 2012-08-22 00:24:11 -0700: > IMO, we'll end up sooner or later using NM on X-less boxes by default > I do not share your opinion. While I'm not ifupdown's biggest fan, it will likely be the network configuration tool of choice on servers for the forseeable future. NM is specifically targetted at the more flexible networking requirements of laptops and mobile systems. It does not, however, take into account all of the myriad use cases for servers that ifupdown handles. > NM on Fedora can now handle bonding and bridging by reading > "/etc/sysconfig/netwok-scripts/ifcfg-*" files. > ... > The following NEW packages will be installed: > consolekit dconf-gsettings-backend dconf-service dnsmasq-base > glib-networking glib-networking-common glib-networking-services > gsettings-desktop-schemas iputils-arping libck-connector0 libdconf1 > libgudev-1.0-0 libnetfilter-conntrack3 libnl-route-3-200 libnm-glib4 > libnm-util2 libnspr4 libnss3 libpcsclite1 libpolkit-agent-1-0 > libpolkit-backend-1-0 libproxy1 libsoup2.4-1 libsysfs2 libxml2 > network-manager policykit-1 wpasupplicant Thats cool. If we go down that route in Ubuntu, perhaps then we would address the dependencies that you mentioned. But AFAIK, there is no such plan and ifupdown is safe for the time being. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The place of the Ubuntu Software Center regarding Steam, Desura and others
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:00 PM, David Klasinc wrote: > Implementation wise, I think the best way would be if PPA system can be > extended to offer necessary support for selling software. This way Steam, > Desura and alike could offer a simple PPA. PlayOnLinux could probably do > this already. > > Regards, > David I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I think there is about a 0.1% chance of Steam using a Debian package repository to install Linux software. Their system is known for quickly and immediately updating games, as soon as updates appear. This is very important to keep them in sync with other players. Apt and dpkg don't offer that for free, and I can't think of a practical reason beyond that for Valve to bother with packaging everything when it can just be shipped in a standard format: 'here are the game files: put them $somewhere'. The best we can do is anticipate that and think about software installation in a world where some common applications manage the job outside of Debian's tutelage. People use and like Desura (and likely will Steam) and SC won't be replacing them, but maybe, with some very simple common interfaces, it can augment them in a way that makes sense. Dylan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Network Manager dependencies
IMO, we'll end up sooner or later using NM on X-less boxes by default NM on Fedora can now handle bonding and bridging by reading "/etc/sysconfig/netwok-scripts/ifcfg-*" files. I was curious about whether NM could do the same by reading "/etc/network/interfaces" so I've just tried to install NM in an X-less Quantal VM. "apt-get install network-manager" results in: The following NEW packages will be installed: acl at-spi2-core binutils colord consolekit dbus-x11 dconf-gsettings-backend dconf-service dnsmasq-base fontconfig fontconfig-config gconf-service gconf-service-backend gconf2-common glib-networking glib-networking-common glib-networking-services gnome-icon-theme gsettings-desktop-schemas hicolor-icon-theme humanity-icon-theme indicator-application iputils-arping libappindicator3-1 libasound2 libatk-bridge2.0-0 libatk1.0-0 libatk1.0-data libatspi2.0-0 libcairo-gobject2 libcairo2 libcanberra-gtk3-0 libcanberra-gtk3-module libcanberra0 libck-connector0 libcolord1 libcroco3 libcups2 libdatrie1 libdbusmenu-glib4 libdbusmenu-gtk3-4 libdconf1 libexif12 libfontconfig1 libgconf-2-4 libgd2-xpm libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 libgdk-pixbuf2.0-common libgnome-bluetooth11 libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgphoto2-2 libgphoto2-l10n libgphoto2-port0 libgtk-3-0 libgtk-3-bin libgtk-3-common libgudev-1.0-0 libgusb2 libieee1284-3 libindicator3-7 libjasper1 libjbig0 libjpeg-turbo8 libjpeg8 liblcms2-2 libltdl7 libnetfilter-conntrack3 libnl-route-3-200 libnm-glib-vpn1 libnm-glib4 libnm-gtk-common libnm-gtk0 libnm-util2 libnotify4 libnspr4 libnss3 libogg0 libpam-ck-connector libpango1.0-0 libpcsclite1 libpixman-1-0 libpolkit-agent-1-0 libpolkit-backend-1-0 libproxy1 librsvg2-2 librsvg2-common libsane libsane-common libsoup2.4-1 libsysfs2 libtdb1 libthai-data libthai0 libtiff5 libv4l-0 libv4lconvert0 libvorbis0a libvorbisfile3 libxcb-render0 libxcb-shm0 libxcomposite1 libxcursor1 libxdamage1 libxfixes3 libxft2 libxi6 libxinerama1 libxml2 libxpm4 libxrandr2 libxrender1 libxtst6 mobile-broadband-provider-info modemmanager network-manager network-manager-gnome network-manager-pptp network-manager-pptp-gnome notification-daemon policykit-1 policykit-1-gnome pptp-linux sgml-base shared-mime-info sound-theme-freedesktop ttf-dejavu-core usb-modeswitch usb-modeswitch-data wpasupplicant x11-common xml-core and "apt-get install network-manager -o APT::Install-Recommends=false" results in: The following NEW packages will be installed: consolekit dconf-gsettings-backend dconf-service dnsmasq-base glib-networking glib-networking-common glib-networking-services gsettings-desktop-schemas iputils-arping libck-connector0 libdconf1 libgudev-1.0-0 libnetfilter-conntrack3 libnl-route-3-200 libnm-glib4 libnm-util2 libnspr4 libnss3 libpcsclite1 libpolkit-agent-1-0 libpolkit-backend-1-0 libproxy1 libsoup2.4-1 libsysfs2 libxml2 network-manager policykit-1 wpasupplicant So, even an installation of NM without its "Recommends" (which isn't something that I like to do or, AFAIK, something that's recommended) results in the installation of packages that are only needed by a DE, like dconf-gsettings-backend, dconf-service, glib-networking, glib-networking-common, glib-networking-services, gsettings-desktop-schemas. Could NM's "Depends" and "Recommends" be pared down for an X-less use-case? Thanks. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
