Re: Network Manager dependencies

2012-08-23 Thread Tom H 
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> Excerpts from Tom H's message of 2012-08-22 00:24:11 -0700:
>>
>> IMO, we'll end up sooner or later using NM on X-less boxes by default
>
> I do not share your opinion. While I'm not ifupdown's biggest fan, it
> will likely be the network configuration tool of choice on servers for
> the forseeable future. NM is specifically targetted at the more flexible
> networking requirements of laptops and mobile systems. It does not,
> however, take into account all of the myriad use cases for servers that
> ifupdown handles.

Given the dislike/hate for that's often expressed on debian-devel,
Ubuntu'll have ifupdown and not have to worry about developing a
home-grown alternative to NM.

As an end-user I find the idea that every distribution has its own
networking configuration stack frustrating. In my day job, I work with
RHEL and Solaris. But I moonlight and have to deal with Arch, Debian,
Gentoo, Scientific (and Fedora), and Ubuntu. Arch and Gentoo are only
twice and once respectively - which makes things even worse.

Now that NM can handle bonds, bridges, and vlans, my hope's that
installing it on a X-less server'll be easy. Quite frankly, from an
efficiency perspective for Linux as a whole, it'd make more sense for
more developers to improve NM rather than work an alternatives. But
open source doesn't work this way.

Regarding the "flexible networking requirements", people make the same
argument for not switching to upstart or systemd..

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Re: The place of the Ubuntu Software Center regarding Steam, Desura and others

2012-08-23 Thread David Klasinc 

On 08/23/2012 07:16 AM, Nicolas Michel wrote:

I agree with Dylan. Valve is not likely to package their games because
their purpose if I understand well is to make Steam a multi-plateform
distribution software. I think that Ubuntu Software Center could only
integrate their list of software to ease and centralize the search. But
it would probably need cooperation from Valve and Desura.


Also, Steam has support for various DRM solutions, which publishers will 
probably want to keep even if they decide to extend support for other 
platforms.


Regards,
David

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Re: Update the 'tilda' package

2012-08-23 Thread Timothy Arceri 
Lanoxx, 


Can you please stop sending html based emails to the development email lists 
all I see is:

From: Lanoxx 
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss 
Subject: Update the 'tilda' package
Message-ID: <50360aa0.3000...@gmx.net>
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This is happening on this list as well as the GTK list.




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Today's Topics:

   1. Update the 'tilda' package (Lanoxx)
   2. Re: The place of the Ubuntu Software Center regarding Steam,
      Desura    and others (Matthew Paul Thomas)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:49:04 +0200
From: Lanoxx 
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss 
Subject: Update the 'tilda' package
Message-ID: <50360aa0.3000...@gmx.net>
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:11:18 +0100
From: Matthew Paul Thomas 
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: The place of the Ubuntu Software Center regarding Steam,
    Desura    and others
Message-ID: <5035e5a6.1020...@canonical.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nicolas Michel wrote on 21/08/12 22:52:
> ...
> 
> So I thought the best I would want as a user is to search for 
> everything I want to install on my desktop from the Ubuntu Software
> Center. Although I'm not aware of the future plans for the 
> application I think it would be really amazing to have a plugin 
> system on the Ubuntu Software Center to plug external content 
> database to its search engine so we could see the content
> available from Desura, Steam AND Play on Linux (and maybe others).
> These plugins should work (and keep updated their databases) even
> without these applications installed. So the user should be asked
> to install it to be able to install that game or that software.

This would be useful for software developers, too: imagine being able
to access all of Cpan from the "Developer Tools" > "Perl" subcategory,
PyPI from the "Python" subcategory, or RubyGems.org from the "Ruby"
subcategory.

> ...
> 
> Secondly to offer what guys that are coming to our platform are 
> searching for: freedom. You may think it's ironic since we are 
> talking about closed-source softwares but it is not. I'm talking
> of freedom as in freedom of choice. Regarding this topic I think
> the Ubuntu Software Center should really tag clearly what is 
> open-source, closed-source, free of charge and not.

USC already does this. We could perhaps do it more prominently
<http://launchpad.net/bugs/715683>, and we could definitely be more
specific about the open-source licenses being used.
<http://launchpad.net/bugs/435183>

> It should also really well highlight who is providing the software:
> Ubuntu, Steam, Desura, others?

We have work to do on this, though each application already links to
the publisher's Web site.

> So we'll have the choice: if I'm searching for the "video" keyword 
> and I want to use only open-source softwares provided by
> Canonical, I should be able to click on a filter to only see it.
> 
> ...

You can already filter on software provided by Canonical, but that's
not the same as filtering on open-source software.
<http://launchpad.net/bugs/630730>

Cheers
- -- 
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Re: LVM and Thin Provisioning

2012-08-23 Thread Nicolas Michel 
Hello,

I didn't know that thin provinsioning was a feature of LVM! Good to know it
:)
Said that, isn't the future will BTRFS? No need of LVM anymore then since
all of the features will be "packages" in the filesystem.

Nicolas


2012/8/23 John Moser 

> Gents,
>
> Do you think in the future Ubuntu would benefit from an LVM with thin
> provisioning default whole-disk layout?  At the moment thin
> provisioning is not considered stable, and so it would be
> inappropriate.
>
> I believe that once LVM thin provisioning is stable, it would be
> worthwhile for Ubuntu to use it by default when installing across a
> whole disk.  Essentially with a single large disk, Ubuntu could create
> one big logical volume such that 100% of the disk is /, 100% is /home,
> and some small amount is swap.  This would allow for snapshot backups,
> encryption, and such through the supported LVM interfaces.  More
> importantly, it would allow for the isolation of file systems
> (particularly / and /home) without complex considerations like "how
> big do we make them?"
>
> The down side to this is LVM complexity--power users can't simply pull
> up gparted and manipulate LVM partitions, slide things around to
> install an alternate OS, etc, without learning some new tools.  I
> think power users would plan ahead for that, and other users who do a
> full disk install won't particularly have such needs because they'll
> be of the "Install one Linux because I want my computer to work"
> variety.
>
> Users who are resizing an existing OS and using part of the disk may
> legitimately have a middle ground where they eventually move to resize
> partitions (remove the old OS or Ubuntu) and find that their basic
> knowledge is suddenly useless and they don't know where to go from
> here or really want to put in that kind of effort.  From that
> perspective, shrinking a Windows partition and putting an LVM Physical
> Volume next to it with a complex Logical Volume layout may not be a
> great idea; the distinction between "power user" and "regular user"
> does have a gray-zone border, and these sorts of installs fall within
> it much more often than straight-up whole disk installs.  But then,
> maybe it'd be perfectly fine anyway.
>
> LVM thin provision does legitimize automatic file system migration.
> Passing TRIM through a thin provisioned LVM volume doesn't just knock
> a block off an SSD; it tells the thin provisioning layer that that
> block is free.  When an entire extent is TRIMed off, it becomes
> available again (as is my understanding, anyway).  So a user on Ubuntu
> with ext3 migrating to ext4 loses out on a lot of features that ext4
> simply has to be created from scratch for; well you can create a new
> thin root, move the data across (TRIMing as you go), and then remove
> the old LV.  Even if the disk is 90% full.  Same for when some fool
> has experimented with btrfs and realizes there's no fsck tool (fsck
> doesn't FIX btrfs, it just tells you if it's broken) and he wants to
> go back to ext4 or XFS.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
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> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
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>



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LVM and Thin Provisioning

2012-08-23 Thread John Moser 
Gents,

Do you think in the future Ubuntu would benefit from an LVM with thin
provisioning default whole-disk layout?  At the moment thin
provisioning is not considered stable, and so it would be
inappropriate.

I believe that once LVM thin provisioning is stable, it would be
worthwhile for Ubuntu to use it by default when installing across a
whole disk.  Essentially with a single large disk, Ubuntu could create
one big logical volume such that 100% of the disk is /, 100% is /home,
and some small amount is swap.  This would allow for snapshot backups,
encryption, and such through the supported LVM interfaces.  More
importantly, it would allow for the isolation of file systems
(particularly / and /home) without complex considerations like "how
big do we make them?"

The down side to this is LVM complexity--power users can't simply pull
up gparted and manipulate LVM partitions, slide things around to
install an alternate OS, etc, without learning some new tools.  I
think power users would plan ahead for that, and other users who do a
full disk install won't particularly have such needs because they'll
be of the "Install one Linux because I want my computer to work"
variety.

Users who are resizing an existing OS and using part of the disk may
legitimately have a middle ground where they eventually move to resize
partitions (remove the old OS or Ubuntu) and find that their basic
knowledge is suddenly useless and they don't know where to go from
here or really want to put in that kind of effort.  From that
perspective, shrinking a Windows partition and putting an LVM Physical
Volume next to it with a complex Logical Volume layout may not be a
great idea; the distinction between "power user" and "regular user"
does have a gray-zone border, and these sorts of installs fall within
it much more often than straight-up whole disk installs.  But then,
maybe it'd be perfectly fine anyway.

LVM thin provision does legitimize automatic file system migration.
Passing TRIM through a thin provisioned LVM volume doesn't just knock
a block off an SSD; it tells the thin provisioning layer that that
block is free.  When an entire extent is TRIMed off, it becomes
available again (as is my understanding, anyway).  So a user on Ubuntu
with ext3 migrating to ext4 loses out on a lot of features that ext4
simply has to be created from scratch for; well you can create a new
thin root, move the data across (TRIMing as you go), and then remove
the old LV.  Even if the disk is 90% full.  Same for when some fool
has experimented with btrfs and realizes there's no fsck tool (fsck
doesn't FIX btrfs, it just tells you if it's broken) and he wants to
go back to ext4 or XFS.

Thoughts?

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Re: Update the 'tilda' package

2012-08-23 Thread Lanoxx 
The official repository is now the one on github [3], I contacted 
Tristan Slaughter a few month ago and asked him to pull my changes 
around that time I also asked on this mailing list that launchpad should 
synch from github instead of sourceforge.


Also the current code is not tagged it is ready to be used. I have been 
using this very code since a few years now on my laptop. If you look 
closely the changes on github from lanoxx have been merged five month 
ago, but are infact much older. So the best thing would be to just 
package it and deliver it, despide the fact that its not tagged.


I have CCed Tristan Sloughter. Tristan, maybe you could make a release 
so it can be packaged and shipped in the next Ubuntu version?


Regards
Sebastian

On 23/08/12 19:22, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio wrote:

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Lanoxx  wrote:

the tilda package in Ubuntu has not been updated since 2009 and even in
quantal the current packages are still from 2009. However the tilda source
already contains some updates for a long time (for example to move the
config files to an xdg folder). The last update in trunk contains a merge
from github which happenend in April. So my question is, could someone
please update the tilda version for quantal so that it contains the latest
version?

Could you point to where the more current releases live?  The
SourceForge page [1] doesn't have anything newer than what is in the
archive. The Launchpad page [2] is only used for bug tracking. The
GitHub project [3] seems to just be an import from some other
repository (all the commits seem to be "Davide Truffa authored 2 years
ago, lanoxx committed 5 months ago"). There are no tagged releases
there.

[1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/tilda/
[2] http://launchpad.net/tilda
[3] https://github.com/tsloughter/tilda

-- Andrew Starr-Bochicchio

Ubuntu Developer 
Debian Maintainer

PGP/GPG Key ID: D53FDCB1



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Re: Update the 'tilda' package

2012-08-23 Thread Andrew Starr-Bochicchio 
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Lanoxx  wrote:
> the tilda package in Ubuntu has not been updated since 2009 and even in
> quantal the current packages are still from 2009. However the tilda source
> already contains some updates for a long time (for example to move the
> config files to an xdg folder). The last update in trunk contains a merge
> from github which happenend in April. So my question is, could someone
> please update the tilda version for quantal so that it contains the latest
> version?

Could you point to where the more current releases live?  The
SourceForge page [1] doesn't have anything newer than what is in the
archive. The Launchpad page [2] is only used for bug tracking. The
GitHub project [3] seems to just be an import from some other
repository (all the commits seem to be "Davide Truffa authored 2 years
ago, lanoxx committed 5 months ago"). There are no tagged releases
there.

[1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/tilda/
[2] http://launchpad.net/tilda
[3] https://github.com/tsloughter/tilda

-- Andrew Starr-Bochicchio

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   Debian Maintainer

   PGP/GPG Key ID: D53FDCB1

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Re: The place of the Ubuntu Software Center regarding Steam, Desura and others

2012-08-23 Thread Matthew Paul Thomas 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nicolas Michel wrote on 21/08/12 22:52:
> ...
> 
> So I thought the best I would want as a user is to search for 
> everything I want to install on my desktop from the Ubuntu Software
> Center. Although I'm not aware of the future plans for the 
> application I think it would be really amazing to have a plugin 
> system on the Ubuntu Software Center to plug external content 
> database to its search engine so we could see the content
> available from Desura, Steam AND Play on Linux (and maybe others).
> These plugins should work (and keep updated their databases) even
> without these applications installed. So the user should be asked
> to install it to be able to install that game or that software.

This would be useful for software developers, too: imagine being able
to access all of Cpan from the "Developer Tools" > "Perl" subcategory,
PyPI from the "Python" subcategory, or RubyGems.org from the "Ruby"
subcategory.

> ...
> 
> Secondly to offer what guys that are coming to our platform are 
> searching for: freedom. You may think it's ironic since we are 
> talking about closed-source softwares but it is not. I'm talking
> of freedom as in freedom of choice. Regarding this topic I think
> the Ubuntu Software Center should really tag clearly what is 
> open-source, closed-source, free of charge and not.

USC already does this. We could perhaps do it more prominently
, and we could definitely be more
specific about the open-source licenses being used.


> It should also really well highlight who is providing the software:
> Ubuntu, Steam, Desura, others?

We have work to do on this, though each application already links to
the publisher's Web site.

> So we'll have the choice: if I'm searching for the "video" keyword 
> and I want to use only open-source softwares provided by
> Canonical, I should be able to click on a filter to only see it.
> 
> ...

You can already filter on software provided by Canonical, but that's
not the same as filtering on open-source software.


Cheers
- -- 
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Update the 'tilda' package

2012-08-23 Thread Lanoxx 

  
  
Hi,


the tilda package in Ubuntu has not been updated since 2009 and even
in quantal the current packages are still from 2009. However the
tilda source already contains some updates for a long time (for
example to move the config files to an xdg folder). The last update
in trunk contains a merge from github which happenend in April. So
my question is, could someone please


 update the tilda version for quantal so that it contains the
latest version?

Best Regards
Lanoxx
  


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