Re: Fwd: future development idea: presentation mode
Sorry, I don't wanted to say, that more screens are uncommon absolutely. I wanted to say, that they are quite uncommon relatively to how often presentations are used. At least in the world where I am moving. Sorry for missunderstanding. I have written it in a bad way. I don't want to do anything with the current multiple screen implementation. It is a prefect solution for working. But not so good for presenting. Marek 2015-04-29 2:20 GMT+02:00 Dale Amon a...@vnl.com: Actually you will find the use of 2, 3 and 4 screens very common. Walk through an accounting office. True they are in the windows world, but multi-screens are basic to their work flow. Similarly (also windows), you will find that in the case of many engineering applications, two screens are essential. SolidWorks for example. You did mention developers. I am always moving cursor between screens and have programs in both. Actually I wish I had more screens. Even 4 dual screen desk tops isn't enough for me. Not to suggest that making it easier to do what you suggest is a bad idea... I just wanted to correct any impression that multiple screens is unusual in any way. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: future development idea: presentation mode
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:00:48AM +0200, Marek Sterzik wrote: solution for working. But not so good for presenting. One problem I have run into (at night when I am kicking back for leisure after a long day of engineering) are some annoying effects that are the sort of thing you may be speaking of. If I make a YouTube video full screen in my big display screen, I cannot do any further work because any attempt to type on any other screen causes it to go back to the small size. I've also run into cases where enlarging a screen always goes on top of the primary display, which when working with a laptop is the smaller laptop screen. So there are areas in which things could be better, and these are just as true of regular work flow... for example what if you wanted to watch a training video on SolidWorks on you biggest display while you followed the tutorial on one of your other screens? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Yeah, I guess I deserved that :) Using unity tweak tool to do this has not worked for a long time, it's never worked for me. I've read that the location has been hard-coded in such a way as to make it virtually impossible to change this without a major code rewrite: http://askubuntu.com/a/451330 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-tweak-tool/+bug/1310056 http://www.webupd8.org/2014/01/unity-7-to-get-new-window-decorations.html I think this is something that needs to be addressed. It isn't up to the developers to tell the users how things should look. It works the other way around. At the very least, give me the option, I don't even care if I have to install some packages or dconf configurations, or even hand edit xml files (yuk), so long as it remains possible. Not to say that any of that should be necessary. On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:40 PM Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 April 2015 at 20:56, Mark Faine mark.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. Best! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Excerpts from Martinx - ジェームズ's message of 2015-04-28 21:40:11 -0700: On 28 April 2015 at 20:56, Mark Faine mark.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right of the screen consequence free for a single click. This is to encourage the user to dig into the indicators and to help developers inform users easily in a uniform way. Hate on it all you want, this is safer for new users, and it's almost a perfect copy of one of the things that is actually good about OS X. I've grown accustomed now, and I prefer it this way. :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 10:41 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 10:38 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 10:23 PM, John Moser wrote: I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Right, so by that logic the close button should be as far away from that as possible, right? I mean, you definitely wouldn't want to hit it by mistake. :) This comment is competing with my Elbonia comment for most hilarious in this thread, and I think I may be losing. You see my point, of course: reaching up-left is slow and awkward; bicycling 5 miles is faster and less exhausting than walking 2 (it takes the same amount of energy to walk 1 mile as it does to bicycle 7 in the same amount of time). The menus would belong in the top-right if they weren't variable-width and, generally, wide and complex. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) But seriously, arguing about which side the window decorations should be on is like arguing which flavour of cake tastes best. It took me two or three days to get used to having them on the opposite side the few times in my life where I switched from windows to mac to Gnome and then to Unity, but after a few days I got used to them. Here, have a slice of my chocolate cake. Chocolate is scientifically proven to be the best cake ever. :) Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 08:54 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 08:32 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right Actually, no, you know what? I'm going to set decorum aside and pull a Linus here, on everyone involved. Not you, Clynt; *everyone*. First and foremost, the biggest red flag you'll ever find in the UI design sphere is Apple blahblahblah. This statement comes out of people who have no clue what they're talking about, so make an appeal to authority--typically the authority of the least-successful product produced by the least-successful desktop computer OS manufacturer. Folks seem to forget that Apple's OSX is the only broadly-marketed, consumer-targeted alternative to Microsoft Windows, and is completely trounced by them; while also conveniently forgetting that Android devices control *four* *times* the handheld device market of iOS (caveat: that's by browser detection; by sales, people have purchased 7 times as many Android devices as iOS devices, and manufacturers have shipped 8 times as many Android devices as iOS devices). Claiming that Apple does something a certain way should be an argument made *against* doing something--it would still be a bad argument, but it would at least make sense. Apple makes a shitload of money being iTunes, Inc. So let's set aside the pointless Apple fanboy arguments and do some history. Back in 10.04, Ubuntu tried moving the controls to the left. This met with huge resistance, largely in the form of complaining, whining, and people putting the controls back where they belong. Now, I can't recall who said what, but I can at least recall what I said, so we'll go with that. What did I say? Oh yeah. I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Those of us with civil rights in Elbonia will find I'm completely correct; lefties will find confusion, followed by the realization that they're using the wrong hand. A year later, in 11.04, Ubuntu released the Global Menu. Three days before 15.04, Ubuntu reversed a decision to disable the Global Menu by default, after preening themselves with talk about the new Locally Integrated Menus--i.e. pre-11.04, non-Apple menus. Again, more bitching. People hated on the Global Menu. A lot. It's sort of a big deal: loads of contention among users, news articles asking if Shuttleworth is insane or just stupid, everything from strategic trepidation to outright hostility. The Ubuntu developers actually had an explanation for this one. They said it puts the menus in a consistent location, so the user won't get lost trying to find File Edit blah blah blah Tools. Translation: Users are retards who have been beaten with Cricket bats until they've sustained sufficient brain damage to soil themselves uncontrollably, so we've put the menus somewhere we can train an Amoeba to find consistently. My take on the situation? Two simple things: First, if the window is maximized, the menu is obviously in the same place on the screen. If not, you have multiple windows, and it takes *two* *mouse* *clicks* to click a menu. With LIMs (you know, *normal* menus), you just click File on the window; with Global Menus, you have to click the window, then go back and click File at the top. These days, even standard Windows 7 is so screwed up that I'm not sure what window I've got selected; right now, on Ubuntu, the only difference between this window and the Thunderbird main window is this window has black title bar text and controls, while every other window on the screen has medium-dark gray text and controls. Back in the day, the title bar would be an entirely different color. You can be pretty sure the user will have to stop and verify he's looking at the right menus before he can click with confidence. Second, people don't work the way Canonical has suggested. A screen is meaningless. Say it with me: The screen is meaningless. People don't know where they are on the screen. They know they're working on a specific window; LIMs are part of that window, and share a consistent spatial relationship with that window. Everything in the window shares a specific spatial relationship with that window--mostly with the top and left of that window. The window may resize or move around, but most things--including the menus and controls--share a specific spatial relationship with the top and left of that window. Putting the menu in the same fixed position in the workspace--the screen--means you're moving it around. You have a component of the window which no longer has a fixed spatial relationship with the window, and must be located when used. The controls in the top-right have the slightest disadvantage of being affected by the width of the window; this is made up for by the fact that the user is typically
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 10:38 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 10:23 PM, John Moser wrote: I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Right, so by that logic the close button should be as far away from that as possible, right? I mean, you definitely wouldn't want to hit it by mistake. :) This comment is competing with my Elbonia comment for most hilarious in this thread, and I think I may be losing. You see my point, of course: reaching up-left is slow and awkward; bicycling 5 miles is faster and less exhausting than walking 2 (it takes the same amount of energy to walk 1 mile as it does to bicycle 7 in the same amount of time). The menus would belong in the top-right if they weren't variable-width and, generally, wide and complex. Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 10:44 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 10:36 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. Close button was directly at the top-left here when i upgraded to 15.04. On my 39 inch monitor, I don't believe the entire title bar is an inch high. :p An inch high? What application are you running that has the menu right underneath the window decorations? Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 08:32 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right of the screen consequence free for a single click. This is to encourage the user to dig into the indicators and to help developers inform users easily in a uniform way. You encourage people to the indicators by highlighting them some way, not moving something they're actually looking for away from them. You're not going to draw attention to something by moving things actually relevant to the user away from it. Hate on it all you want, this is safer for new users, and it's almost a perfect copy of one of the things that is actually good about OS X. Doesn't seem safer. If you're talking about being able to click up at the indicators without accidentally hitting the close button... the top row of pixels is active for the indicators; you're just bluntly slamming the mouse into the top of the screen to use indicators, not precision-noodling around a bunch of small controls trying to poke things. You know. |Activities ||[X][_][0] ||File Edit Blah Blah Blah Tools || The treacherous Close/File area. I've grown accustomed now, and I prefer it this way. :) Well yeah, you've been trained now, and have those reflexes, and would then have to untrain it now. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 10:23 PM, John Moser wrote: I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Right, so by that logic the close button should be as far away from that as possible, right? I mean, you definitely wouldn't want to hit it by mistake. :) Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. I think you need a better mouse. Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 10:36 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. Close button was directly at the top-left here when i upgraded to 15.04. On my 39 inch monitor, I don't believe the entire title bar is an inch high. :p I think you need a better mouse. Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 07:55 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 10:44 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 10:36 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. Close button was directly at the top-left here when i upgraded to 15.04. On my 39 inch monitor, I don't believe the entire title bar is an inch high. :p An inch high? What application are you running that has the menu right underneath the window decorations? Anything with the old style, in window menus. That being said I prefer the newer style with the menu in the window title bar, but each to their own. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
All of which is why I am migrating to Mint, step by step. Even on Ubuntu I use Mate and make the changes to make the OS and GUI do my bidding. A OS is a slave. It does what its master tells it to do, whether that be to put buttons on the right or the left. Different people have different tastes. They should command their slave to do things the way they demand, and if it does not, they should get a new silicon servant. When computers get uppity and start deciding how you are going to do things, it is time to put them in their place. This is not intended to be a bias against eventual AI entities who are not the amoeba level intellects of the software we currently deal with. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
