Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Julian Andres Klode]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 04:10:31PM +0100, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> Julian Andres Klode:
> > If A suggests B, and you install B in some way, you may have come to
> > rely on the fact that A is extended by B on your system.
> > Automatically removing B could thus cause an unexpected loss of
> > functionality.
> 
> The point I do not understand is why after removing A, being A the only that
> recommends B from all the packages installed by the user, B is still
> considered needed.
> 
> Is it because a previously installed package recommends B but didn't install
> it? Or because the new set up makes the dependency tree to recommend itself?

Cycles are also possible, but less likely. Usually it is a Suggests from
another existing package, as I have explained about three times already.

I also wrote I am thinking about adding some kind of apt revert command
that allows you to revert entries from apt's history.log, which would allow
you to undo install commands.

But that's sort-of-dangerous in many cases (everything involving an
upgrade), and most likely only works for the latest change.

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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Julian Andres Klode]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 04:37:40PM +0100, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> Julian Andres Klode:
> > Usually it is a Suggests from another existing package.
> 
> If I run "apt-cache depends gnome-shell", it says:
> Recommends: gdm
> Breaks: gdm
> 
> Is this normal, having a package both as recommended and as breaking?

It does not show you version numbers. gnome-shell recommends gdm,
because it works best with it, and breaks old gdm versions it does
not work with.

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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Julian Andres Klode]

On 21 December 2015 at 14:59, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
> Julian Andres Klode:
>>
>> autoremove will remove all packages that no other package
>> PreDepends, Depends, Recommends, or Suggests.
>
>
> Probably the problem is the latest.
>
> Since I did not install other package apart from cortina, probably what is
> holding back gdm is a package already present in the system. Hold as
> suggested.
>
> Because the default behaviour is to automatically install recommended
> packages but not suggested ones, that is what is causing the mismatch.
>
> The expected behaviour is autoremove to keep packages from the sets that
> will install automatically, and to remove the rest. So to depend on the
> system configuration.
>

No it's not. I told you what the expected behavior is and the reasons
why it is the expected behavior. You can configure that differently if
you want to.

I'll repeat this one last time for you: If A suggests B, and you
install B in some way, you may have come to rely on the fact that A is
extended by B on your system. Automatically removing B could thus
cause an unexpected loss of functionality.

This is not going to be changed, so do not waste your time and
everyone elses time.

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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Abou Al Montacir]

On Mon, 2015-12-21 at 17:03 +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 04:57:39PM +0100, Abou Al Montacir wrote:
> > Hi Julian
> > 
> > On Mon, 2015-12-21 at 16:13 +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> > > I also wrote I am thinking about adding some kind of apt revert command
> > > that allows you to revert entries from apt's history.log, which would
> > > allow
> > > you to undo install commands.
> > That will be really a great feature. I was always upset that apt(itude) does
> > not
> > have this feature. I was even thinking about a feature that allows you to
> > recover your system at a certain date based on snapshots.
> > The last time I was missing this is today. I updated ssh and suddenly I
> > could
> > not access anymore my github account due to my key was rejected. I would
> > loved
> > to aptitude revert instead of doing this manually.
> 
> In a lot of cases it won't work though. For example, reverting an
> upgrade is formally unsupported (so you'd need to answer yes to
> some warnings), and in any case, the old versions and packages
> still need to be available in your sources. Actually, anything
> where something other than an install happened (whether remove
> or upgrade) is a bit flaky.
I was more thinking about sid/testing users that stable users. So these people
should be experimented enough to be able to deal with warnings.
Normally one can always access snapshots to recover a given version of any
package so why should one have to have the old packages?
> A better option is to use snapshotting on the file system.
> 

Yes was thinking about putting / in a git repository and playing with
.gitignore, but maybe there are better solutions.
-- 
Cheers,
Abou Al Montacir

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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Luis Felipe Tabera Alonso]

On lunes, 21 de diciembre de 2015 16:10:31 (CET) Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> Julian Andres Klode:
>  > If A suggests B, and you install B in some way, you may have come to
>  > rely on the fact that A is extended by B on your system.
>  > Automatically removing B could thus cause an unexpected loss of
>  > functionality.
> 
> The point I do not understand is why after removing A, being A the only
> that recommends B from all the packages installed by the user, B is
> still considered needed.

Just a note, if you want to know why the system insists on havin a specific 
package installed, you can try the command

aptitude why $packagename

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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Julian Andres Klode]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 04:57:39PM +0100, Abou Al Montacir wrote:
> Hi Julian
> 
> On Mon, 2015-12-21 at 16:13 +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> > I also wrote I am thinking about adding some kind of apt revert command
> > that allows you to revert entries from apt's history.log, which would allow
> > you to undo install commands.
> That will be really a great feature. I was always upset that apt(itude) does 
> not
> have this feature. I was even thinking about a feature that allows you to
> recover your system at a certain date based on snapshots.
> The last time I was missing this is today. I updated ssh and suddenly I could
> not access anymore my github account due to my key was rejected. I would loved
> to aptitude revert instead of doing this manually.

In a lot of cases it won't work though. For example, reverting an
upgrade is formally unsupported (so you'd need to answer yes to
some warnings), and in any case, the old versions and packages
still need to be available in your sources. Actually, anything
where something other than an install happened (whether remove
or upgrade) is a bit flaky.

A better option is to use snapshotting on the file system.

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Julian Andres Klode  - Debian Developer, Ubuntu Member

See http://wiki.debian.org/JulianAndresKlode and http://jak-linux.org/.

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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Johannes Schauer]

Hi,

Quoting Julian Andres Klode (2015-12-21 13:43:41)
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 01:35:21PM +0100, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> > Julian Andres Klode:
> > > It just happens that some of the newly installed dependencies are also
> > > Suggested by other installed packages, and thus are not removed,
> > > because you might have installed the package in order to extend the
> > > functionality of another installed package suggesting it.
> > 
> > sudo apt-get install cortina -y
> > sudo apt-get purge cortina -y
> > sudo apt-get autoremove -y
> > 
> > Result: the recommended dependencies installed only during this operation
> > are not removed. Now we have the GNOME Display Manager, and also plenty of
> > extra wallpapers, among others.
> 
> This is intended. Some other packages that were previously installed
> merely suggest gdm, so the end result is that the package will stay
> installed.
> 
> If you don't want that, you can set 
>   APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant
> to false.

it is maybe also worth mentioning that since apt 1.1.5 and fixing of Debian bug
#807413 this setting (AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant and
AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant) is semi-documented in
/usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz

cheers, josch


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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Robie Basak]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 03:08:51PM +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> I'll repeat this one last time for you: If A suggests B, and you
> install B in some way, you may have come to rely on the fact that A is
> extended by B on your system. Automatically removing B could thus
> cause an unexpected loss of functionality.

I understand your logic here. But doesn't the same logic apply to
Depends? If B depends on A and you install B in some way, then you may
have come to reply on the fact that A is extended by B on your system,
etc.

I had always assumed that this is the risk you take by using autoremove
and thus you need to pay attention to what you autoremove, which is for
example why unattended-upgrades is sensible by not doing it by default.

What makes Recommends and Suggests special?


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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 00:35:25 +, Robie Basak wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 03:08:51PM +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
>> I'll repeat this one last time for you: If A suggests B, and you
>> install B in some way, you may have come to rely on the fact that A
>> is extended by B on your system. Automatically removing B could thus
>> cause an unexpected loss of functionality.  
>
>I understand your logic here. But doesn't the same logic apply to
>Depends? If B depends on A and you install B in some way, then you may
>have come to reply on the fact that A is extended by B on your system,
>etc.
>
>I had always assumed that this is the risk you take by using autoremove
>and thus you need to pay attention to what you autoremove, which is for
>example why unattended-upgrades is sensible by not doing it by default.
>
>What makes Recommends and Suggests special?

They are optional dependencies. Software can run without optional
dependencies, just some options are missing if those dependencies
aren't installed. Hard dependencies are dependencies that are needed by
the software.

Recommended and suggested dependencies are Debian/Ubuntu terms for
optional dependencies. The default is that recommended dependencies are
automatically installed too and suggested dependencies are not
automatically installed.

There is something else to consider regarding upgrades, the difference
between upgrade (under no circumstances are currently installed
packages removed, nor are packages that are not already installed
retrieved and installed) and dist-upgrade (a "smart" conflict
resolution system, and it will attempt to upgrade the most important
packages at the expense of less important ones, if necessary).

However, claims to make it more user-friendly for some so called
"averaged" user are hard to fulfil, solutions always need to be
solutions based on the common ground. User-friendly doesn't mean that a
non restricted free operating system could be used without a learning
curve or without any self-responsibility.

Even if the package management would be able to read the mind of a
user, it only could do what's in the mind of the user.

The package management is unable to read the mind, but a user can
configure the package management not to use the defaults. The defaults
of Ubuntu try to fit to what is common ground of "averaged" users.

Somebody already pointed out, the only enhancement could be an undo
option based on the package management's log (history), but that could
become very tricky. I bet it will cause more trouble, than enhance
user-friendliness.
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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Montag, den 21.12.2015, 13:35 +0100 schrieb Alberto Salvia Novella:
> Julian Andres Klode:
>  > It just happens that some of the newly installed dependencies are
> also
>  > Suggested by other installed packages, and thus are not removed,
>  > because you might have installed the package in order to extend
> the
>  > functionality of another installed package suggesting it.
> 
> sudo apt-get install cortina -y
> sudo apt-get purge cortina -y
> sudo apt-get autoremove -y
> 
well, there is a very simple solution, do not use -y  :) 
apt will tell you what it installs and you have to explicitly agree to
this, these Y/N questions are there for a reason ... 

also, an "average user" as describer on the papercuts wiki should never
even have to use apt or a terminal.

ciao
oli


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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Oliver Grawert:

well, there is a very simple solution, do not use -y  :)


> also, an "average user" as describer on the papercuts wiki should
> never even have to use apt or a terminal.

Isn't that the same as installing a package from the Software Center?




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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Julian Andres Klode:

autoremove will remove all packages that no other package
PreDepends, Depends, Recommends, or Suggests.


Probably the problem is the latest.

Since I did not install other package apart from cortina, probably what 
is holding back gdm is a package already present in the system. Hold as 
suggested.


Because the default behaviour is to automatically install recommended 
packages but not suggested ones, that is what is causing the mismatch.


The expected behaviour is autoremove to keep packages from the sets that 
will install automatically, and to remove the rest. So to depend on the 
system configuration.





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Re: Is this list appropriate for technical support?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

J Fernyhough:

Not really. This is one of the reasons developers don't post to it.


Wrote a note about it at
(https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment#Communication)
(https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperCommunication#Where)

Thanks




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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Julian Andres Klode:
> It just happens that some of the newly installed dependencies are also
> Suggested by other installed packages, and thus are not removed,
> because you might have installed the package in order to extend the
> functionality of another installed package suggesting it.

sudo apt-get install cortina -y
sudo apt-get purge cortina -y
sudo apt-get autoremove -y

Result: the recommended dependencies installed only during this 
operation are not removed. Now we have the GNOME Display Manager, and 
also plenty of extra wallpapers, among others.



Ralf Mardorf at :
> autoremove could consider recommended dependencies as automatically
> installed, but likely already now some users complain that autoremove
> uninstalls software they still want to use.

So the root cause is in autoremove, not in the package management. Just 
taking one specimen using the above example:

- Installing cortina installs the gnome-shell as dependency
- gnome-shell installs gdm as recommended packages
- gdm installs the gnome-icon-theme as recommended package

So using autoremove without touching the recommended packages will leave 
plenty of stuff there, in a fashion that is costly to trace back.



Ralf Mardorf
> Already now some users complain that autoremove uninstalls software
> they still want to use.

I think that if an user wants to install something to stay there, they 
will do explicitly and not through a third package.


More surprising is that the "install" and "remove" buttons do not act on 
the same software.





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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Julian Andres Klode:
> If A suggests B, and you install B in some way, you may have come to
> rely on the fact that A is extended by B on your system.
> Automatically removing B could thus cause an unexpected loss of
> functionality.

The point I do not understand is why after removing A, being A the only 
that recommends B from all the packages installed by the user, B is 
still considered needed.


Is it because a previously installed package recommends B but didn't 
install it? Or because the new set up makes the dependency tree to 
recommend itself?





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Systemd on Ubuntu

[Michael Parchet]

Hello,

Is it possible to install systemd on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS 64 bit or should I 
upgrade Ubuntu ?

Thanks for your answer

Best regards

mparchet
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Re: Systemd on Ubuntu

[J Fernyhough]

On 21 December 2015 at 15:15, Michael Parchet  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Is it possible to install systemd on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS 64 bit or should I
> upgrade Ubuntu ?
>
>
Assuming you're running LTS for a reason, your best bet is to wait until
16.04 LTS is released, then upgrade to that.

J
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Re: Systemd on Ubuntu

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Michael Parchet:

Is it possible to install systemd on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS 64 bit or should I 
upgrade Ubuntu ?


For user support, please refer to (http://www.ubuntu.com/support).




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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Julian Andres Klode:
> Usually it is a Suggests from another existing package.

If I run "apt-cache depends gnome-shell", it says:
Recommends: gdm
Breaks: gdm

Is this normal, having a package both as recommended and as breaking?




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Re: How shall I report a bug in the .deb packaging itself?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Julian Andres Klode:

It does not show you version numbers. gnome-shell recommends gdm,
because it works best with it, and breaks old gdm versions it does
not work with.


Okay. Thank you.



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