RE: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello Evan, Thank you for your comments and clarifications. It's interesting to know that Ubuntu already takes care during a reinstall of the home folder as well as user settings, when these already exist on the partition. Thinking about the motivation I had to move the home folder to a separate partition, I see that there could be several reasons why having the home folder on a separate partition might still be useful. 1. data safety -- in case the user by mistake formats the main partition during the installation process. 2. simplicity of reformatting -- in case the use wants to reformat the main partition while keeping the "user" partition intact. 3. simplicity of hard disk exchange -- in case the home folder resides on a separate hard disk, 4. I think there is also a psychological factor here. Currently, the user needs to trust the Ubuntu reinstall process, that it doesn't touch the user data and settings, with the data tucked away on a separate partition, it is easier to trust Ubuntu that the data wouldn't be touched. 5. install of other Linux instead or in addition to Ubuntu could benefit from having a home folder either shared or untouched. Will let you know if I can figure out some more motivations :-) Re: Preserving packages after reinstall You are right. Thinking about it again, I wanted to clean up my installation, and also thought it might improve performance. Perhaps a reinstall could offer a list of already installed packages, and the user can select the subset of packages he/she wants to again include. Thank you, Daniel -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Evan Huus Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:23 AM To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross wrote: > Hello, > > I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead > of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). Congrats :) > It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder > from the "boot" partition to a "data" partition. Ideally, the tool would > support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as > well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the > size of the home folder. > > Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the > Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an "advanced setup" heading > -- removing the need to move the home partition. > > The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu > without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a > separate data partition. Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. > Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a > data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring > itself accordingly. This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only need the one partition for it though. > Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve > the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the > data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could > be "User" partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, > created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base > OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see "reinstalling while keeping current packages" to be a common desire. You've raised some very interesting points, all of which merit further discussion. Enjoy your shiny new Ubuntu :) Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/ma
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello João, Thank you for your response. I agree with you that ultimately having proper backup is THE solution for data loss. At the same time there are many factors that mitigate data loss. Keep in mind that data loss is a probabilistic event, and you want to increase the odds in your favor. For example, the ext4 file system format is newer than ext3. Having the boot partition run on ext4 while keeping the data partition on ext3 may for example increase the odds that data on the ext3 partition is more recoverable than on an ext4 partition. Having home on a separate partition thus allows you to vary file system formats to meet such needs. Also, the problem that i had was related to physical sectors becoming unavailable on the boot partition, which corrupted data in such a way that the partition became inaccessible. A second partition on the same physical hard disk continued to work error-free. If i had my home partition on the second partition i could have mounted it without error using a live CD. So, what i am saying is, data loss can be mitigated by certain kinds of setups, and thats, essentially, what we all try to do. Ideally, as i said, is having all off-site managed professionally at a data center where data is backed up in such a way that the odds are very much in your favor (but even there data can still be lost when very unusual events occur). thanks, Daniel On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 22:23 +, Joao Pinto wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Daniel Gross > wrote: > Hello Phill, > > I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a > separate > partition to users having a backup. > > Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the > unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those > users who > have a backup will clearly benefit. > > Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition > (such as > due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the > data on a > separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a > working > system much more easily without data loss. > > In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup > of all > data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i > guess a > separate data partition will lose its necessity. > > > thanks, > > Daniel > > > > > Daniel, > having a separate partition for /home does not not improve data > protection in any way, it does not provide backups and the data access > is not isolated. > > Your case would not be better with a different partition, whatever > caused you the ext4 corruption could happen to your home partition as > well, or both. > > For disaster situations like yours (unrecoverable file system > corruption) a proper solution is to have backups. > > > -- > João Luís Marques Pinto > GetDeb Team Leader > http://www.getdeb.net > http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello Phill, I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a separate partition to users having a backup. Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those users who have a backup will clearly benefit. Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition (such as due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the data on a separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a working system much more easily without data loss. In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup of all data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i guess a separate data partition will lose its necessity. thanks, Daniel On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 18:11 +, Joao Pinto wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Phill Whiteside > wrote: > Hi Joao, > > the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home > area, which is on the install CD and causes no end of grief on > support. They get the option of that, but not a seperate /home > partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing mostly with Windows > users, is the encryption part really needed as a default > question - or only available in advanced? > > Regards, > Phill. > > > Hi Phill, > I don't have data to support this, but a significant part of today's > devices are mobile devices. I truly believe that the risk of keeping > unencrypted data on a mobile device is so high that encryption more > than an option should be a default. > Encryption provides a clear and unarguable benefit for most users. I > am not sure to which support problems are you referring to, unless you > are doing low level file management (advanced user), home encryption > is transparent. > > I am sorry but I am unable to identify any clear benefit for most > users to keep the data on a different partition. > > -- > João Luís Marques Pinto > GetDeb Team Leader > http://www.getdeb.net > http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello I just had a really bad experience while working with Ubuntu 10.10, which suggested to me another reason for having a separate home folder. My ext4 boot partition with all my data became inaccessible -- not mountable, not checkable, only accessible via dd or ddrescue, but the data coming out is very partial (the image i am getting claims to be of type ext2, for some reason, so can't be checked either). I had just started a new virtual machine, and then the hard drive started spinning at "full speed", with the computer not responding. After a while I felt that the only way out is a hard reset. Unfortunately, either the spinning out of control, or the hard reset, or both, have damaged the ext4 partition in a significant way. Interestingly, a second NTFS partition (with my preinstalled windows xp pro on it) wasn't affected, and i was able to boot windows xp without problems, but not able to access the ext4 partition, also not with a special ext4 file system utility. After much trial and error i still can not properly access the ext4 partition, getting a "drive exclusively in use by other process or mounted error?". I happened to have another 320 SATA drive around, which i am not freshly installing with ubuntu 10.10. To avoid such problems with the boot partition in the future, I decided to the the following partitioning scheme. Ubuntu Boot partition -- 40 GB, ext4 Primary NTFS partition of size 220 GB, mounted at /windows Primary NTFS partition of size 60 GB, not mounted. My plan is to move my home directory to the 220GB partition. Like this if the ubuntu ext4 boot partition fails again, i will hopefully be able to access all my data from both windows and ubuntu rescue facilities. So, the reason to move the home directory to a different partition (and file system type), relates to not putting all your files in one ext4 boot partition basket. Daniel On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss>> wrote: >* Hello, *>* *>* I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead *>* of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). * Congrats :) >* It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder *>* from the "boot" partition to a "data" partition. Ideally, the tool would *>* support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as *>* well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the *>* size of the home folder. *>* *>* Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the *>* Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an "advanced setup" heading *>* -- removing the need to move the home partition. *>* *>* The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu *>* without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a *>* separate data partition. * Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. >* Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a *>* data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring *>* itself accordingly. * This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only need the one partition for it though. >* Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve *>* the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the *>* data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could *>* be "User" partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, *>* created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base *>* OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. * Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see "reinstalling while keeping current packages" to be a common desire. You've raised some very interesting points, all of which merit further discussion. Enjoy your shiny new Ubuntu :) Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On my former Lenovo notebook windows xp pro installation, Lenovo added a feature called "rejuvenate system", which restores windows xp to a baseline installation (the first backup snapshot of the system taken), while keeping all data files intact --presumably whatever is stored in My documents. Is this the kind of feature you mean with "in place re-installation"? thanks, Daniel On Wed, 2010-11-10 at 21:56 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Daniel Hollocher wrote on 05/11/10 15:20: > > > That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same > partition doesn't lose the user's data either. > > A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why > so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. > >... > > I imagine you would have to make it part of the gui of whatever > > installer supports it if you wanted more people to use the feature. > > Otherwise, it is a bit too complicated to communicate to people. > >... > > That's a good point. > > Up till now, to get this effect, you had to use the advanced > partitioning step, choose to use the existing root partition, but choose > not to format it. That was pretty obscure. > > Today Evan Dandrea, the installer maintainer, has been working on making > in-place reinstallation one of the basic installation options. > > - -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAkzbFQYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrGeACfZojcSBSPTlQg3PoV3tnIff9X > kiwAn1+MuCD93MGX5ytiozkVzuq/h32i > =vM74 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello Matthew, I wonder whether the definition of user data is well understood. Does it include all configuration data of installed packages? Does it include data stored in non-standard locations? What about user data stored by different applications? Do all applications behave and place their data in hidden home folders? I guess what i am getting at is that a commitment to preserve user data needs a clear and visible definition what is and what is not included, and thus reasonably preserved. thanks, Daniel On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: > >... > > It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home > > folder from the "boot" partition to a "data" partition. Ideally, the > > tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot > > partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data > > partition based on the size of the home folder. > > > > Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the > > Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an "advanced setup" heading > > -- removing the need to move the home partition. > > > > The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling > > Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting > > in a separate data partition. > >... > > That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same > partition doesn't lose the user's data either. > > A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so > many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. > > - -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAkzS3lEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoFyQCgi293WgfunRFjLNEumIqEFvZE > 8fMAn29Q09tBn+onl0ni3/fgtHQp4XG+ > =InlV > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello, I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the "boot" partition to a "data" partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an "advanced setup" heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring itself accordingly. Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be "User" partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. thanks, Daniel -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
