Re: Dump Google?
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 06:45:57PM -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote: Please see http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/world/europe/12raids.html?_r=2partner=rssemc=rsspagewanted=all from today which describes a well-known evil corporation (you-know-who) and makes mention of Google in China: In China, Microsoft has complied with censorship rules in operating its Web search service, preventing Chinese users from easily accessing banned information. Its archrival Google stopped following censorship regulations there, and scaled back its operations inside China’s Internet firewall. Looks like the situation has changed since I last read about it. I wonder how much public outrage and bad publicity had to do with the apparent change of heart. My opinion of their ethics stands. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:05 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote: What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? ..snip.. Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late. Uhm, news flash. Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE. I think it's blog search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the Google news or groups search. I did a little digging. Running a search on icerocket + google turned up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your conclusion? The fact that their web search result pages are nearly identical to Google's (minus the upper header actually), and results are identical to Google. Just do some comparison searches. They find the same numbers of pages, rank them the same, and are using the same extracts/excerpts. I really highly doubt they've enough spidering capacity to replicate Google's results so closely. The fact that their nothing found/error page also contains Google's nothing found/error language verbatim points to this as well. As for their blog search, it also looks like the Google Blog Search API Data, with some form of additional filtering, exactly what they're doing there I'm not sure. Icerocket is very clearly someone whose written a UI for Google searches, there's nothing there to suggest otherwise. In web searches especially they're *identical*. The likelihood of two independent search databases of the web producing the EXACTLY same results for the first 15 for every single search I tested (I tried 6 of them, 'dog pile', 'google philanthropy', 'rock hunting', 'terranova space suit', 'feel good music', 'hockey pucks for sale' -- just random keyword strings really except for the google philanthropy one). And at a glance it also appears everything past the top 15 was identical too. Empirically, Icerocket web search is just google search API. If anyone here is self serving it's Icerocket. Try matching ANY other search engine against Google, (or against any other!) You're not going to get the same results. Even if they use the same algorithms, differing databases will produce different results. The only way to replicate the breadth and depth of Google's results is to have the many many many TB of search index capability that Google has. I'd be really surprised if their blog search isn't Google, the data that's there is what is represented in the API's. That one I haven't been able to figure out what they're doing to get those results, so they're offering something of value there. It certainly produces better results than blogsearch.google.com -- but maybe that's not the data stream that icerocket is using either. The simple fact that they're blatantly lifting Google web search though makes it pretty likely their blog search is based off Google data. The twitter search looks to me to be a wrapper around Twitter's own Search API as well, but I didn't spend any time looking into that. Their 'advanced search' syntax, is also identical to Google's (that's not saying much honestly, but it's one additional little thing) -- though they're filtering out at least some of the specialty search prefixes like links. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:16:08AM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:05 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote: What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? ..snip.. Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late. Uhm, news flash. Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE. I think it's blog search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the Google news or groups search. I did a little digging. Running a search on icerocket + google turned up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your conclusion? The fact that their web search result pages are nearly identical to Google's (minus the upper header actually), and results are identical to Google. Just do some comparison searches. They find the same numbers of pages, rank them the same, and are using the same extracts/excerpts. You could be right but in the absence of documentation what you say is conjecture (although logical) and I remain skeptical. I'll still stand by my original statement. ...snip... -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
Doesn't connical and google have some agreement or certain projects? On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:16:08AM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:05 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote: What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? ..snip.. Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late. Uhm, news flash. Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE. I think it's blog search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the Google news or groups search. I did a little digging. Running a search on icerocket + google turned up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your conclusion? The fact that their web search result pages are nearly identical to Google's (minus the upper header actually), and results are identical to Google. Just do some comparison searches. They find the same numbers of pages, rank them the same, and are using the same extracts/excerpts. You could be right but in the absence of documentation what you say is conjecture (although logical) and I remain skeptical. I'll still stand by my original statement. ...snip... -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkyNP5oACgkQv5BYD41UknmMmACfRG0gmxJQzLkhGq5MoGIDeZGe yJsAoMxkAGV3gGKnwXFIC2JDayqDmWWe =AagZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you? Google did it's best NOT to bend to China. But in order to maintain any official presence at all in China they had to make available a Chinese censorship approved version of Google search. They did their best to legally maintain the full search view for China. Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then they dropped their pants and bent over. Actually, no they didn't. They said screw it, and left. The remaining .cn is all in .com.hk, which has different laws. Running a search on google + remains + china turned up some sites (one dated Thursday July 1, 2010) saying they are still there but pointing out that the link to the HK site exists. Also, an Inquirer site says However, while not quite toeing the red party line, Schmidt continued, We continue to follow their laws, we continue to offer censored results but at a reasonable short time from now we'll be making some changes there. He added, We'd like to do that on somewhat different terms than we have but we remain quite committed to being there. This is dated Fri Jan 22 2010 and I'm well aware that things could have changed drastically since then. Like I said, I stand by my statement. Please see http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/world/europe/12raids.html?_r=2partner=rssemc=rsspagewanted=all from today which describes a well-known evil corporation (you-know-who) and makes mention of Google in China: In China, Microsoft has complied with censorship rules in operating its Web search service, preventing Chinese users from easily accessing banned information. Its archrival Google stopped following censorship regulations there, and scaled back its operations inside China’s Internet firewall. You might also find this interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_flower_tribute CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Harry Strongburg harry.ubu...@harry.luwrote: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote: Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine, because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google. I highly doubt Google or Big Brother would care what you search. If Big Brother cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent in plaintext across the Internet). -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss And, honestly, Google is probably one of the most open search (or just plain internet) companies out there. They're also one of the biggest users and proponents for open source, too. -- Greg Bair gregb...@gmail.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
Well, I'm not much of an Ubuntu user. But I've been hanging around on the internet since there wasn't no Google at all. Today, the average user expects to find a Google search pane in their Firefox, Chromium, Konqueror -- so why dump it? Is there a sensible alternative? flori -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:50:05AM +, Harry Strongburg wrote: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote: Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine, because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google. I highly doubt Google or Big Brother would care what you search. If Big Brother cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent in plaintext across the Internet). Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On 09/11/2010 07:49 AM, Florian Rehnisch wrote: Well, I'm not much of an Ubuntu user. But I've been hanging around on the internet since there wasn't no Google at all. Today, the average user expects to find a Google search pane in their Firefox, Chromium, Konqueror -- so why dump it? Is there a sensible alternative? flori Google's not beyond criticism, but it's a good service, and one users expect to have available. It's trivially easy to change the default search engine in Firefox, and not much more difficult to add additional search engines to the list. Adding a few under-appreciated open source search engines to the list seems like a reasonable proposal. Removing Google from the list does not. Brian -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? Simon Ponder On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:50:05AM +, Harry Strongburg wrote: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote: Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine, because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google. I highly doubt Google or Big Brother would care what you search. If Big Brother cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent in plaintext across the Internet). Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On 09/11/2010 12:06 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. That's a gross oversimplification of the PRC vs. Google issue. Take a look at www.google.cn, and notice the redirect to www.google.com.hk, just for starters. Try doing a few searches on political subjects, and see what happens. Brian -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On 09/10/2010 08:14 PM, Martin Albisetti wrote: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Jordanjordanh...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Ubuntu Developers, I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on). Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system). Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu. I'm thinking large-picture here. Ubuntu's main attraction is it's security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance). With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say? I don't think Ubuntu's main attraction is security and privacy. It's important to many of us on this list, but hardly the reason we've got millions of users. Yikes, I didn't know there would be such a volatile reaction...it was just a suggestion. True, it does seem like Google does the best they can and they haven't broken any laws (as far as we know). However, Google does store user's information, such as I.P. addresses and the searches (yes, the I.P. address goes away after 8 months) and they transmit a crazy amount information back to the server (autocomplete for instance). Now, as far as I know, the Ubuntu platform does not record or store your I.P. address except for services like Ubuntu One. A search engine like Google, to me, doesn't fall in line with a privatized search engine like Google. Or one thing we could do is still provide Google, but add a more private search engine to give the user's that option (I mentioned Startpage above). I'm sure they would love to help improve open source. Again, only a suggestion...I'm trying to make Ubuntu better as much as the next guy. Sorry if I made anyone angry. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote: What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? ..snip.. Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:23:51PM -0700, Brian Vaughan wrote: On 09/11/2010 12:06 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. That's a gross oversimplification of the PRC vs. Google issue. Take a look at www.google.cn, and notice the redirect to www.google.com.hk, just for starters. Try doing a few searches on political subjects, and see what happens. Looks like you're right except that I read some time ago that the PRC made them stop allowing the redirect. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:17:06PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: ..snip.. Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you? Google did it's best NOT to bend to China. But in order to maintain any official presence at all in China they had to make available a Chinese censorship approved version of Google search. They did their best to legally maintain the full search view for China. Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then they dropped their pants and bent over. So now there's the limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the unfiltered version still in most cases. That came as a surprise to me. I remember reading that the PRC made them eliminate the HK link. In the cases that it doesn't there are well documented work arounds using proxies. Quit criminalizing/blaming/whatever Google for the *CHINESE GOVERNMENTS* shortcomings and requirements. I didn't criminalize them but my statement stands. They are just as unprincipled as any other avaricious corporation, their self serving protestations not withstanding. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sunday 12 September 2010 12:49 AM, Jordan wrote: Google does store user's information, such as I.P. addresses and the searches (yes, the I.P. address goes away after 8 months) and they transmit a crazy amount information back to the server (autocomplete for instance). Well IP address logging isn't something new. All websites do it. Even blogs! If you get a hosting with cPanel, the IP address logger is installed by default. You wont be even knowing that your hosting is logging the IP of people who are coming to your domain Secondly, Google makes money by collecting information. They dont charge us. I would be really keen to know how they would make money without collecting information and also giving away for free. BTW I would surely object if google collects some private information. IP address is not a private information nor is User-agent string Or one thing we could do is still provide Google, but add a more private search engine to give the user's that option (I mentioned Startpage above). I'm sure they would love to help improve open source. One option should be there. Google for day-to-day people who care more about their search results and dont care about google's collection of data. One private engine for purists. And a few more for more flexibility. Everyone should have something for them in the list of search engines/ Again, only a suggestion...I'm trying to make Ubuntu better as much as the next guy. Sorry if I made anyone angry. No. It didnt. Everyone is voicing their opinion. I don't think there is something to get angry. -- Manish -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Jordan jordanh...@gmail.com wrote: Again, only a suggestion...I'm trying to make Ubuntu better as much as the next guy. Sorry if I made anyone angry. Sorry my reply was so dry. I shouldn't reply to email on Friday evenings :) I appreciate spirit of your idea, and great things happen when everything is questioned. I think that the main point is that as well as freedom and privacy, we want to offer the best possible experience to users. Sometimes that means we need to make trade-offs (like providing closed-source drivers). As it stands right now, Google is the best option for search and many other services, they are very open source friendly and vastly more open than other of the popular search engines. If we found another search engine that could match Google's quality, and it was more open, I'm sure we'd jump to it in a heartbeat. The main message I wanted to convey is that we should be just as mindful of people's experience as of privacy issues, which many many people don't care (or know) about. It's easy to assume everyone else cares about the things we do, but we're a small and funny group of people, we shouldn't forget that! cheers, -- Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:17:06PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: ..snip.. Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you? Google did it's best NOT to bend to China. But in order to maintain any official presence at all in China they had to make available a Chinese censorship approved version of Google search. They did their best to legally maintain the full search view for China. Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then they dropped their pants and bent over. Actually, no they didn't. They said screw it, and left. The remaining .cn is all in .com.hk, which has different laws. So now there's the limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the unfiltered version still in most cases. That came as a surprise to me. I remember reading that the PRC made them eliminate the HK link. They can't make them do much of anything to the .com.hk hosted infrastructure. To the best of my knowledge they've basically left China over the PRC's censorship requirements. They tried to make the PRC happy for a while, but when it became too onerous to do that, they said screw it and left. Quite the opposite of whatever impression you've gotten. They were, and still are, one of the loudest voices for freedom of (search/speech). In the cases that it doesn't there are well documented work arounds using proxies. Quit criminalizing/blaming/whatever Google for the *CHINESE GOVERNMENTS* shortcomings and requirements. I didn't criminalize them but my statement stands. They are just as unprincipled as any other avaricious corporation, their self serving protestations not withstanding. If they are so completely self serving then why have there been something like 700 published research papers from Google (Yahoo! Research also has a similar number) -- why has Google sponsored the summer of code for the last six years? Why has google open sourced so many different technologies? Some of Google's papers and research are what helped to start the latest evolution in computing (they call it the cloud). IBM has a LOT more publishing, but they've had decades more to work at it, and are a larger organization. Universities have a lot more as well. But amongst the bigger corporations, in so far as technology research and publishing (that is making findings publicly available), and helping MANY other open source projects along, Google is pretty generous. Yes Google uses some of the information as part of recruiting (they're VERY clear about that) -- but the code is public domain, it could do that just as well without funding any of these projects. Go take a look at the Google Summer of Code (SoC) information. Ubuntu has benefitted from atleast this years SoC. I'm not sure about prior years. For SoC 2010 Google awards $5500 per approved student/coder. $500 goes to the sponsoring organization, and $5000 goes to the student. For 2010 they funded about 1000 Student Developers. That's $5M USD (up to, payment disbursement depends on a passing evaluation - done by the mentoring organization) -- The mentoring organizations basically submit a ranked list of possible projects/candidates. Google awards N% of the total possible awards to each org based on the number of applicants (more applicants more projects and students get funded). They did $5M last year too. So Google gave *YOU* $5M in software development, because ALL of the code is open source. Google doesn't even really decide who gets the money, they just put a framework in place for well known (open source) community organizations to say we want to have some deserving Open Source projects receive some time and funding, and here's our list Like it or not, Google does a lot of non self serving (or atleast not entirely self serving) good out there. Even if Google is self serving and unprincipled, they're certainly the amongst least so of any of their peers (Bing anyone?) Also, I think that Google likely makes the VAST majority of its money from Adwords and Adwords related services, not from the data it collects (and uses in aggregate) for search. I tried finding similar examples of philanthropy for Yahoo! and actually came up blank (using both Google and Yahoo! search honestly) Microsoft has a pretty well known history of philanthropy, mostly directly from Bill Gate's Bill
Re: Dump Google?
--On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote: What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? ..snip.. Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late. Uhm, news flash. Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE. I think it's blog search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the Google news or groups search. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:06:36PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. Yeah, chosing to not use a search engine because they were legally forced by the government to change something... pretty inane in my opinion. I'd like to see you run a search engine that the Chinese government dislikes some results on it, and then go to them nah Chinese government, it's okay, we aren't going to remove the results that offend you. Google redirects www.google.cn to www.google.com.hk, and results are uncensored there. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
--On Friday, September 10, 2010 7:58 PM -0700 Jordan jordanh...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Ubuntu Developers, I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on). Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system). Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu. I'm thinking large-picture here. Ubuntu's main attraction is it's security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance). With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say? I don't know that Ubuntu (or any particular Linux distro) main attraction is either of those. But it certainly is choice. Ubuntu could provide more choice out of the box. Whatever choice Ubuntu makes it would also have to be endorsed by it's users. The results would have to be good and timely, just picking a different search engine to jump on the band wagon is probably a bad idea. The new engine, whatever chosen, would have to be fairly robust as well since Ubuntu represents a non-trivial share of users, and, Ubuntu users I'm sure also expect things to work well. In fact I'd say choice, and working well, as well as having the latest updates are the three highest expectations of Ubuntu users as a whole. Security and privacy also figure in the top five reasons as well I'm sure, and different users will have different priorities. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:34:25PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:33 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 03:21:51PM -0400, Simon Ponder wrote: What other engine do you use, if you do not mind me asking? ..snip.. Icerocket, although it's been getting flaky on me as of late. Uhm, news flash. Icerocket's web search IS GOOGLE. I think it's blog search is also google based, I'd have to dig, but, looks a bit like the Google news or groups search. I did a little digging. Running a search on icerocket + google turned up several sites that contrasted icerocket and google. If there was anything linking the two, I missed it. Can you supply a URL for your conclusion? -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:32:31PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:51 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:17:06PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: --On Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:06 PM -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: ..snip.. Google's archiving all searches isn't the only reason to dump it. If you are willing to use a search engine that censors web sites at China's whim go right ahead. Google puts their profit ahead of their stated support of the free flow of information. Only the lazy or those who are uninformed or lack principals use Googleand yes, I do use another search engine. Wow you really don't pay any attention to reality do you? Google did it's best NOT to bend to China. But in order to maintain any official presence at all in China they had to make available a Chinese censorship approved version of Google search. They did their best to legally maintain the full search view for China. Up until the time the PRC threatened not to renew their license. Then they dropped their pants and bent over. Actually, no they didn't. They said screw it, and left. The remaining .cn is all in .com.hk, which has different laws. Running a search on google + remains + china turned up some sites (one dated Thursday July 1, 2010) saying they are still there but pointing out that the link to the HK site exists. Also, an Inquirer site says However, while not quite toeing the red party line, Schmidt continued, We continue to follow their laws, we continue to offer censored results but at a reasonable short time from now we'll be making some changes there. He added, We'd like to do that on somewhat different terms than we have but we remain quite committed to being there. This is dated Fri Jan 22 2010 and I'm well aware that things could have changed drastically since then. Like I said, I stand by my statement. So now there's the limited Chinese censored site, but a simple click will get you the unfiltered version still in most cases. That came as a surprise to me. I remember reading that the PRC made them eliminate the HK link. They can't make them do much of anything to the .com.hk hosted infrastructure. No one said that they were forced to do anything to the HK infrastructure. My understanding was that they were forced to remove the link. If they are so completely self serving then why have there been something like 700 published research papers from Google (Yahoo! Research also has a similar number) -- why has Google sponsored the summer of code for the last six years? Why has google open sourced so many different technologies? Some of Google's papers and research are what helped to start the latest evolution in computing (they call it the cloud). You're thinking in absolutes. Just because they are self serving in one area doesn't mean they are in all others. ..snip.. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Dump Google?
Dear Ubuntu Developers, I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on). Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system). Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu. I'm thinking large-picture here. Ubuntu's main attraction is it's security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance). With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say? Thanks! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Jordan jordanh...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Ubuntu Developers, I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on). Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system). Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu. I'm thinking large-picture here. Ubuntu's main attraction is it's security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance). With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say? I don't think Ubuntu's main attraction is security and privacy. It's important to many of us on this list, but hardly the reason we've got millions of users. -- Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 23:14, Martin Albisetti be...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Jordan jordanh...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Ubuntu Developers, I'm not sure if I'm the first person to suggest this, but lately Google's reputation has diminished, especially with talk of them being Big Brother (yes, I know what server my email's on). Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? I know of a few underdogs such as Startpage and Yauba (I know of one more whose name I forgot...they have plans for an email system). Probably they would be happy to form an alliance with Ubuntu. I'm thinking large-picture here. Ubuntu's main attraction is it's security and privacy (not requiring users to register, for instance). With the technology news on Google and large search engines, I think we should jump on the band wagon to avoid Google. What do you say? I don't think Ubuntu's main attraction is security and privacy. It's important to many of us on this list, but hardly the reason we've got millions of users. We could do *everything* for as many users as possible. Or we could work for as many users as we can while still standing by our philosophies of free software and freedom for our users. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Dump Google?
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 07:58:29PM -0700, Jordan wrote: Why not drop Google and go for a more private search engine? Yes, let's suggest for Ubuntu users use an obscure search engine, because they are worried someone at Google Inc may be knowing what kind of searches they do. Anyone who is concerned about Google would already use a different search engine. Ubuntu does not force you to use Google. I highly doubt Google or Big Brother would care what you search. If Big Brother cared enough about you, they could just sniff all your traffic ISP-side. If you are searching for something illegal or incriminating, you're probably going to get in trouble, no matter if you use Google, or $some_random_foreign_search_engine. I am not implying that you are searching anything illegal, but it's pretty crazy to care about where your search queries go (especially when they are being sent in plaintext across the Internet). -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
