Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Conrad Knauer]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Joe Terranova <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  An option would be to perhaps have two versions in the repo.
>
>  wine-stable -- the version synced during feature freeze, that Ubuntu
>  supports (sort of)
>  wine-latest -- the latest version, synced regularly from the Wine
>  repo. MOTU's don't support it, they just update it.
>
>  Then a virtual package wine, which is implemented by both.
>  Thoughts?

Why not just take advantage of the *-updates (supported iiRC) or
*-backports (unsupported iiRC) repository infrastructure that already
exists?

The packages that require the most frequent updating should be
identified (e.g. the ones you mentioned: Tor, Tremulous, Warsow,
Firefox, Wine, etc.) and then flagged for frequent updates.

>  PS: I use the Wine repo too. But after the latest update, running wine
>  turns my screen black, and I don't know what to do about it.

Have you tried...

deleting your Wine folder (~/.wine) and starting fresh?

running winecfg and under the "Graphics" tab, checking "Emulate a
virtual desktop"? (I suggest setting its size smaller than your
desktop; e.g. if your monitor runs Ubuntu at 1280x1024, try running
Wine at 1024x786)

CK

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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Joe Terranova]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Daniel Hollocher
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Though it is my personal judgment that the two who have responded so far
> don't truely know the answer to my question, for the sake of argument, I
> will refute what has thus been presented.

Let me see if I can give it a try then.

This is the way distributions work.

1) The distribution (Ubuntu) syncs with upstream when developing the new release
2) a) the release stays stable
  b) the programs keep developing.

For most programs, this is fine. The newest release isn't necessary.
However, for many programs, having the newest release is very
important, and breaks the standard Distro formula. Examples include:

Tor -- the upstream developers recently asked Ubuntu to remove Tor
from their repositories, as older versions are hurting the network
Games -- if you're running version 1.2.1, and all the servers are
running version 1.2.3, you usually can't play
Wine -- for your stated reasons

There is little ill result of you using a different repo for Wine.
However, what happens if you used a different repo for each program
you wanted up to date. You'd have:

A Tor repo
a Tremulous repo
a Warsow repo
a Firefox repo
a Wine repo
etc

This would initially give you your ideal solution of having the most
up-to-date versions in the stable release of Ubuntu. All these repos
are built using the latest stable, so they should work together ...
right? Maybe. But the devil's in the details, and here's some things
to consider:

Ubuntu packages are updated for security issues. Do you know if all
your third party repos are?
Ubuntu packages are subject to peer review to confirm an update won't
break your system. Are your third party repos run by just one guy?
Ubuntu packages are in the repos before the next stable release, are
available on release day, and designed to transition correctly. What
happens if you update to the newest stable, and there aren't new
packages in your third party repo? If there are, has the maintainer
tries dist-upgrading using them?
Are your third party repositories updating packages that are
/dependencies/ of other packages you have?

If the answer to any of these is bad, then you're in for a world of
pain at some point. The sort of pain that Distributions are designed
to prevent. Having a third party up-to-date version of Wine might make
some things easier, but Ubuntu recognizing third party repos is a
slippery slope. Wine might be an exception, but policy wasn't made for
such exceptions.

An option would be to perhaps have two versions in the repo.

wine-stable -- the version synced during feature freeze, that Ubuntu
supports (sort of)
wine-latest -- the latest version, synced regularly from the Wine
repo. MOTU's don't support it, they just update it.

Then a virtual package wine, which is implemented by both.
Thoughts? I know that, if renaming the package, direct syncing would
not be possible, but hopefully there's something similar that can be
done without much MOTU effort, if they thought this was worth it.

Joe Terranova
PS: I use the Wine repo too. But after the latest update, running wine
turns my screen black, and I don't know what to do about it.

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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Scott Ritchie]

Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> So, are you trying to say that the version of wine in the ubuntu repos is
> more compatible than the one in the winehq repos?  Keep in mind, that the
> winehq version is built specifically for Ubuntu Gutsy (in my case).
> Additionally, keep in mind, that the version in the ubuntu repos is probably
> not supported by anyone.  I expect that the wine community supports only the
> latest version, and the ubuntu community diverts any wine related questions
> to the wine community.
> 

Both packages are made by me.  The intent is for the each Wine version
shipped with Ubuntu to have no regressions relative to the previous Wine
version shipped with Ubuntu.  This is something I can't guarantee using
the biweekly Wine releases, however people still want the latest Wine,
so I make it available there.


Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Jan Claeys]

Op woensdag 13-02-2008 om 19:32 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Daniel
Hollocher:
> From Jan:
> "Not every user will be able to find those 3rd-party repositories."
> Well, most people coming from windows will be able to find those
> repositories.  The winehq website presents very clear directions on
> how to set them up, and it involves cutting and pasting two commands.
> This is a matter of opinion, and is also besides the point, since you
> can just download the latest version.  You don't need the repos.

You're obviously a "newbie" in supporting "ordinary" users...  ;-)

They don't want to enter or copy/paste magic spells.


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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 13.02.2008, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Daniel Hollocher:
> I have a different but related question:  why is a wine package
> included in the Ubuntu repositories at all?  
would your mother (want to) know how to add a sourcees.list entry etc ?

> I understand that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6 month
> basis to ensure compatibility, but why include wine in that process
> when the wine devs are probably doing a better job?
the wine devs work closely with our wine maintainer, if you look at
ubuntus release schedule you will find that one half of the release
cycle time is dedicated to development/integration and another (usually
the complete second half) to stabilization and bugfixing. beyond its own
bugs software tends to have bugs caused by interaction with other
software. due to the fact that it was tested intensely you can give some
guarantees (this app/software was tested in version x.y.z to work with
all the other versions shipped in ubuntu etc) if you do a release a week
you cant give that quality guarantee since you simply dont have the time
to test as many cases as you can in three months.

so as long as software upstreams dont follow the same release schedule
having a stable and tested package of their software in the archive is
the best way you can go to make sure to hold a certain QA level.

i agree that your mother should have an easy way to add repos if she
wants to go beyod that path and needs the latest and gratest though, but
that wont change ubuntus quality expectations :)

ciao
oli


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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Stephan Hermann]

hi Daniel,

Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> Hey, good response. 
> It looks like this problem will be fixed in the future, and I see the 
> irony of to whom I originally responded to.

If you see the current development release of Ubuntu (named Hardy Heron) 
you can see, that Ubuntu is up2date with wine.
Scott Ritchie, the WineHQ Package Maintainer for Ubuntu, is working 
inside Ubuntu to give you, the user, the best wine experience.
He is doing for WineHQ some packages of newer version of Wine for older 
Ubuntu Releases, but not for the Ubuntu development release.
This will change in the future (hopefully) and all his effords will hit 
Ubuntu directly.

As, I'm just the guy who is uploading Wine to ubuntu, we are using 
Scotts packages, there is no or little difference between Scotts and our 
packages for development releases.
It's difficult for us, indeed, to provide more backports of newer wine 
versions from hardy to older releases, because of several things 
regarding packaging.
We are in need of testers and more packagers to provide this in the future.

The statement I'm making here now is this:
It's not easy for People finding those repository, and if they find 
it, it's not easy for them, to include those 3rd party repositories into 
their system.


Further more, we, as the MOTU team, are providing support only for 
packages which are in our own repositories, not for 3rd party repositories.
So, if something goes wrong with a package of a 3rd Party repo, the user 
is alone. But he/she isn't alone with Ubuntu packages.

Regards,

\sh



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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hey, good response.
It looks like this problem will be fixed in the future, and I see the irony
of to whom I originally responded to.

Dan



On Feb 13, 2008 8:05 PM, Onno Benschop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 14/02/08 09:32, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> > Again, wine in ubuntu is unsupported and outdated.
> Perhaps some prior research would be appropriate before you shoot from
> the hip:
>
>https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-January/000720.html
>
>
> --
> Onno Benschop
>
> Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA)
> --
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>
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>
>


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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Onno Benschop]

On 14/02/08 09:32, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> Again, wine in ubuntu is unsupported and outdated.
Perhaps some prior research would be appropriate before you shoot from
the hip:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-January/000720.html


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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Though it is my personal judgment that the two who have responded so far
don't truely know the answer to my question, for the sake of argument, I
will refute what has thus been presented.

>From Jan:
"Not every user will be able to find those 3rd-party repositories."
Well, most people coming from windows will be able to find those
repositories.  The winehq website presents very clear directions on how to
set them up, and it involves cutting and pasting two commands.  This is a
matter of opinion, and is also besides the point, since you can just
download the latest version.  You don't need the repos.

"Maybe some companies want to say that their software works with "WINE in
Ubuntu X.YZ", which can't be guaranteed with "random" upstream versions."
If companies are relying on a specific release of wine, why include only
one?  Why not include all of them, like the winehq website does here:
http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/archive/index.html


>From Onno:
"You could make the above argument for all available software anywhere ie:
Why ship a kernel when you can download it from kernel.org"
kernel.org did not seem to have a .deb package built specifically for Ubuntu
Gutsy, which is what I'm running.

"Why ship Firefox and Thunderbird when you can get them from
mozilla.com"
Again, no packages.

> Your understanding "that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6
> month basis to ensure compatibility" does not ring true to me. If you
> understood it, that is, really understood it, then you would know that
> wine isn't an island. It relates to all the software around it, the
> kernel, the windowing system, the hardware abstraction code, etc.
> "Ensuring Compatibility" isn't just wine, its the whole lot.

So, are you trying to say that the version of wine in the ubuntu repos is
more compatible than the one in the winehq repos?  Keep in mind, that the
winehq version is built specifically for Ubuntu Gutsy (in my case).
Additionally, keep in mind, that the version in the ubuntu repos is probably
not supported by anyone.  I expect that the wine community supports only the
latest version, and the ubuntu community diverts any wine related questions
to the wine community.

> Now long-time Ubuntu users know that this process isn't 100%, that is,
> unexpected things still happen, incompatibilities still creep in and
> bugs still get unearthed, but at least you're working within a known
> problem scope, that is, the goal-posts move every six months, but they
> don't move every minute, which is what you're proposing.

With wine, the situation is different.  In terms of getting apps to run on
wine, wine IS an island.  I don't know of any ubuntu specific support for
wine, the only support is on the wine website.  And that website does not
support the package that is in the Ubuntu repos.  So, in terms of getting
things to work on wine, those six month goal posts don't apply.

Again, wine in ubuntu is unsupported and outdated.  No, you did not answer
my question.  Why is it included when a better version is so readily
available.  OR, why not include the updated version in gutsy-backports?  Or
even proposed?

Dan
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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Onno Benschop]

On 14/02/08 07:53, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> I have a different but related question:  why is a wine package
> included in the Ubuntu repositories at all? 
>
> Its 5 months old, and the winehq website not only has a package built
> specifically for ubuntu gutsy/whatever, but they have their own
> repository that will allow your install of wine to be automatically
> updated. 
>
> I understand that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6 month
> basis to ensure compatibility, but why include wine in that process
> when the wine devs are probably doing a better job?
>
> Dan
>
> PS - I'm very curious to the response, since I feel that similar
> criticisms can be leveled at other packages in the ubuntu repos.

You could make the above argument for all available software anywhere, ie:

* Why ship a kernel when you can download it from kernel.org
* Why ship Firefox and Thunderbird when you can get them from
  mozilla.com
* [.. etc..]

While it might look like I'm being flippant, I'm not. I'm serious. The
whole point of putting together a distribution is that the sum of the
parts is greater. That goes for wine as much as any other application /
code.

The release schedule that Ubuntu uses is better than any distribution
I've seen anywhere, period.

Your understanding "that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6
month basis to ensure compatibility" does not ring true to me. If you
understood it, that is, really understood it, then you would know that
wine isn't an island. It relates to all the software around it, the
kernel, the windowing system, the hardware abstraction code, etc.
"Ensuring Compatibility" isn't just wine, its the whole lot.

Now long-time Ubuntu users know that this process isn't 100%, that is,
unexpected things still happen, incompatibilities still creep in and
bugs still get unearthed, but at least you're working within a known
problem scope, that is, the goal-posts move every six months, but they
don't move every minute, which is what you're proposing.


So, does that answer your question?

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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Jan Claeys]

Op woensdag 13-02-2008 om 17:53 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Daniel
Hollocher:
> I have a different but related question:  why is a wine package
> included in the Ubuntu repositories at all?
> 
> Its 5 months old, and the winehq website not only has a package built
> specifically for ubuntu gutsy/whatever, but they have their own
> repository that will allow your install of wine to be automatically
> updated.
> 
> I understand that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6 month
> basis to ensure compatibility, but why include wine in that process
> when the wine devs are probably doing a better job?

I can see at least 2 possible reasons:

  * Not every user will be able to find those 3rd-party
repositories.
  * Maybe some companies want to say that their software works with
"WINE in Ubuntu X.YZ", which can't be guaranteed with "random"
upstream versions.

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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Daniel Hollocher]

I have a different but related question:  why is a wine package included in
the Ubuntu repositories at all?

Its 5 months old, and the winehq website not only has a package built
specifically for ubuntu gutsy/whatever, but they have their own repository
that will allow your install of wine to be automatically updated.

I understand that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6 month basis to
ensure compatibility, but why include wine in that process when the wine
devs are probably doing a better job?

Dan

PS - I'm very curious to the response, since I feel that similar criticisms
can be leveled at other packages in the ubuntu repos.


On Feb 11, 2008 7:49 PM, Scott Ritchie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wine uses the Gecko rendering engine for functionality in its fake
> internet explorer, which is needed by a lot of applications.  Wine can't
> just use the system Gecko that Firefox does, however - it needs to use
> the Windows version of Gecko.
>
> This presents a problem, since windows Gecko can't compile on Linux and
> Wine can't bundle it upstream.
>
> Currently, Wine gets the Gecko engine the first time it needs to be used
> by downloading it over the internet.  This has all sorts of problems;
> sometimes the download fails, sometimes the user doesn't have internet,
> different users have to download it multiple times since it isn't
> system-wide, and the user gets burden with all this confusion.
>
>
> Wine does, however, support simply using a local copy of the gecko
> engine rather than downloading it.  All we have to do is put it in a
> specific place on the filesystem.
>
> Ideally, Windows Gecko would be buildable under the tools we already
> have in Ubuntu (Mingw), then we could make a wine-gecko package fairly
> easily that just put gecko in its place.  Unfortunately, that's not the
> case today: the Gecko that Wine needs has to be built with Visual Studio.
>
>
> So, what's the best way to do this?  Put the file that Wine downloads
> anyway into a wine-gecko package, and put that on the local filesystem?
>  What do we do about LGPL compliance and providing source code?
>
> I've opened a bug to track integration:
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/191132
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie
>
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