Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 17:18 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > If metacity just does the features in 'Normal' visual effects. Then you > could reserve the Extra button for installing compiz, much like the > codecs are installed. > This is the option we discussed last week; however Metacity doesn't provide anything like the current level of effects :-/ metacity-clutter is more "interesting" in this regard. Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 13:39 -0800, Dylan McCall wrote: > Another thing worth noting is that Ubuntu's /default/ effects via Compiz > are very modest. In fact, they provide the same general features as > Metacity's compositor does by default with about a quarter the standards > compliance. > Not true. The only effect provided by the Metacity compositor is drop-shadows. Otherwise all other effects are not available. Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 17:18 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > > In the interest of feature-parity, the relevant question to my mind is: > > can composited Metacity do everything that the default Compiz can? I'm > > not talking about what can be enabled with ccsm or simple-ccsm, but what > > can be enabled in Appearances -> Desktop Effects. If the simple > > transitions and wall and things that are available in "Normal" and > > "Extra" (on KDE at the moment, so unsure of phrasing) mode are available > > then yes, I would remove Compiz and let Metacity handle it. For the > > record: KWin does handle these things just fine from what I can tell. > > If metacity just does the features in 'Normal' visual effects. Then you > could reserve the Extra button for installing compiz, much like the > codecs are installed. > > That way you don't need them on the CD, but they are still there where > people expect it to be. Sounds perfect. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 01:25 +0100, Remco wrote: > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Christopher James Halse Rogers > wrote: > > The characterisation of Compiz as just about shiny effects is wrong. > > The default plugin set also provides a better _window manager_ than > > Metacity in many ways. > > I wouldn't know about that last claim. Metacity doesn't have all the > useful features of Compiz, but it does work a lot better. While pure > compositing actions such as Alt+Tab may be faster on Compiz (I don't > notice any difference), the applications themselves are a lot slower. > Have you ever tried resizing a window in Compiz? Metacity is much > smoother. If I remember correctly, this is an artefact of the slowness of GL_EXT_tfp and making lots of new textures. This is why the default resize mode for Compiz is 'rectangle', which isn't slow at all. Some of this slowness will be going away as drivers get better. > Also, Compiz is different with regards to snapping windows. > That's a very subtle difference, but combined with the slow resizing, > it makes the desktop feel a lot harder to manipulate. I, personally, don't find Compiz's snapping behaviour better or worse than Metacity's. If you can provide a use-case where Compiz's snapping behaviour is bad (as opposed to simply different from Metacity's behaviour), then this can be fixed in Compiz. > > Switching between non-composited and composited Metacity is also a > smoother transition. One, it doesn't take too long for the desktop to > come up again (though it should really be as seamless as in Windows > Vista). But what's more important: everything still works the same. > It's just slightly more beautiful and useful. > > Would you recommend switching from Compiz to Metacity when your laptop > goes from AC to batery power? That's not a pretty sight. While > Metacity doesn't do this perfectly seamlessly either, at least it's > relatively fast, and it doesn't mess up your window positions. No, I wouldn't. But mainly because Compiz is no worse on battery life than Metacity. Compositing should be a battery-life _win_, generally. There were some powertop benchmarks done, Compiz vs Metacity a year or so ago, and the outcome was that they didn't make a consistent difference. I don't switch between Metacity and Compiz, and I don't suggest other people do, either. > > The ideal solution would be for Metacity (or the appropriate Gnome > app) to implement some of the features that Compiz provides. Scale, > Animations and the Desktop Wall come to mind. Animations may sound > like a useless eye-candy thing, but when done subtly, it just provides > more clues as to where objects are moving toward. Right now, for > example, even compositing Metacity shows some kind of black rectangle > effect when minimizing. That doesn't fit with the nicely shaded > windows. You appear to be describing something we already have. Compiz. It behaves differently to Metacity, yes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. If Compiz does something badly, file a bug. If Metacity does something badly, file a bug. But having Compiz behave exactly the same as Metacity is an explicit non-goal. > > Bottom line: the core of Metacity is just a lot better than that of > Compiz. Compiz has the advantage of a huge amount of plugins. But I > don't see why Metacity couldn't get plugins itself. Because this is pretty much anathema to the goals of Metacity. The motto is "Metacity is Cheerios"! Also, providing a plugin system would almost certainly require serious changes to Metacity's core; you'd end up with something like... Compiz. > > Does anyone know if there is any development going on with Metacity's > compositing mode (or the appropriate Gnome app)? > There is gnome-shell, which uses a forked metacity with a completely different compositor to provide a whole desktop, with panels and task-switcher and such. I would be amazed if any of these suggestions moved into Metacity's trunk. I'm not suggesting that Compiz is perfect; far from it. I *am* suggesting that the way to get a better desktop is to improve Compiz, rather than reimplementing it in Metacity. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Christopher James Halse Rogers wrote: > The characterisation of Compiz as just about shiny effects is wrong. > The default plugin set also provides a better _window manager_ than > Metacity in many ways. I wouldn't know about that last claim. Metacity doesn't have all the useful features of Compiz, but it does work a lot better. While pure compositing actions such as Alt+Tab may be faster on Compiz (I don't notice any difference), the applications themselves are a lot slower. Have you ever tried resizing a window in Compiz? Metacity is much smoother. Also, Compiz is different with regards to snapping windows. That's a very subtle difference, but combined with the slow resizing, it makes the desktop feel a lot harder to manipulate. Switching between non-composited and composited Metacity is also a smoother transition. One, it doesn't take too long for the desktop to come up again (though it should really be as seamless as in Windows Vista). But what's more important: everything still works the same. It's just slightly more beautiful and useful. Would you recommend switching from Compiz to Metacity when your laptop goes from AC to batery power? That's not a pretty sight. While Metacity doesn't do this perfectly seamlessly either, at least it's relatively fast, and it doesn't mess up your window positions. The ideal solution would be for Metacity (or the appropriate Gnome app) to implement some of the features that Compiz provides. Scale, Animations and the Desktop Wall come to mind. Animations may sound like a useless eye-candy thing, but when done subtly, it just provides more clues as to where objects are moving toward. Right now, for example, even compositing Metacity shows some kind of black rectangle effect when minimizing. That doesn't fit with the nicely shaded windows. Bottom line: the core of Metacity is just a lot better than that of Compiz. Compiz has the advantage of a huge amount of plugins. But I don't see why Metacity couldn't get plugins itself. Does anyone know if there is any development going on with Metacity's compositing mode (or the appropriate Gnome app)? Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:10:23 -0500 Danny Piccirillo wrote: > Would it be a good idea to plan to use Metacity as the default > compositing manager for Ubuntu instead of compiz in the future? > > Compiz seems mostly unnecessary. If metacity was used, it would be > easier on the machine and work for people who don't have the hardware > for compiz. Anyone who wants all the exra effects can still install > compiz, but for almost everyone, shouldn't metacity be fine? I thought Ubuntu moved from Metacity to Compiz just about a year ago? -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 14:10 -0500, Danny Piccirillo wrote: > Would it be a good idea to plan to use Metacity as the default > compositing manager for Ubuntu instead of compiz in the future? > > Compiz seems mostly unnecessary. If metacity was used, it would be > easier on the machine and work for people who don't have the hardware > for compiz. Anyone who wants all the exra effects can still install > compiz, but for almost everyone, shouldn't metacity be fine? There are two problems here: the first is that Metacity's compositor is _slower_ and more CPU intensive than Compiz for people with decent 3d drivers (particularly nvidia users - the blob is great at 3d, not so good at 2d). For example, the alt-tab provided by Metacity's compositor is significantly slower than Compiz's, at least for me. The second is that Metacity's compositor is in no way feature-comparable with Compiz. I believe the 'scale' plugin is enabled in our default compiz setup; this gives exposé-like functionality which is not provided by Metacity, and is a _huge_ usability win. The characterisation of Compiz as just about shiny effects is wrong. The default plugin set also provides a better _window manager_ than Metacity in many ways. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
> In the interest of feature-parity, the relevant question to my mind is: > can composited Metacity do everything that the default Compiz can? I'm > not talking about what can be enabled with ccsm or simple-ccsm, but what > can be enabled in Appearances -> Desktop Effects. If the simple > transitions and wall and things that are available in "Normal" and > "Extra" (on KDE at the moment, so unsure of phrasing) mode are available > then yes, I would remove Compiz and let Metacity handle it. For the > record: KWin does handle these things just fine from what I can tell. If metacity just does the features in 'Normal' visual effects. Then you could reserve the Extra button for installing compiz, much like the codecs are installed. That way you don't need them on the CD, but they are still there where people expect it to be. Regards, Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
Another thing worth noting is that Ubuntu's /default/ effects via Compiz are very modest. In fact, they provide the same general features as Metacity's compositor does by default with about a quarter the standards compliance. (A stand-out example for standards compliance being the fact that GIMP's utility windows are totally dysfunctional under Compiz but work fine with Metacity). Metacity, when we filter in its elegant behaviour, is far prettier than Compiz even if it does just give us shadows and a fancy window switcher. Further, the fact is half of Compiz's effects are entirely out of scope for a window manager and rely on horrible, kludgey, unsightly workarounds. All of Metacity's effects are in scope and only exist if they're going to work consistently. Everything else, for example fancy window previews on the window list applet, can and should be implemented by the individual child applications. This is because the window manager is not the only thing capable of pretty visual effects! I think users get confused when they switch between Compiz and Metacity, because the two have profoundly different feels, and in some cases different key bindings. Metacity uses workspaces, while default Compiz uses viewports (and a different number, if I remember right). One follows the extended window manager hints spec to precision, another has quirks. Because of that, switching the window manager should not be considered standard operation. I definitely don't think it is acceptable to dump it as a prominently displayed option as if it is something user friendly to do. So, I for one strongly recommend that Ubuntu migrates back to Metacity by default. Here's another reason: One obvious next step in GNOME's evolution as a desktop environment is the more rigid integration of the window manager with everything else. For example, GNOME-Shell is based on a heavily modified Metacity. In the future a lot of cool stuff will depend on Metacity (or whatever it comes to be called later on). It would be a shame to miss it. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 16:00 -0500, Joe Terranova wrote: > >> As it is, compiz is tried, and Ubuntu falls back on Metacity if it > >> doesn't work. So if they don't have the "hardware", they'll use > >> Metacity. > > > That's good, but why even include compiz in the first place? Doesn't it just > > take up extra space that could be used for something more useful (isn't > > there a problem with keeping Ubuntu small enough to fit onto a CD?) > > Compiz doesn't actually take up very much space from what it looks. > From a cursory look at package sizes, a few megs. A few megs can be enough to get other things in. For example, on ubuntu-devel, someone is asking about having network-manager-vpnc (which requires vpnc) and network-manager-pptp installed by default, all of which would be able to fit if only a few megs were freed up. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joe Terranova wrote: > >> As it is, compiz is tried, and Ubuntu falls back on Metacity if it > >> doesn't work. So if they don't have the "hardware", they'll use > >> Metacity. > > > That's good, but why even include compiz in the first place? Doesn't it > just > > take up extra space that could be used for something more useful (isn't > > there a problem with keeping Ubuntu small enough to fit onto a CD?) > > Compiz doesn't actually take up very much space from what it looks. > From a cursory look at package sizes, a few megs. > > I agree that Compiz is useless. But it does turn heads. When I do > presentations, I always show it. It looks cool. I agree with > Shuttleworth that Linux needs to be gorgeous [1]. Ubuntu needs the > cool factor in order to compete with other OSes. Is it vain? Silly? > Useless? yes. But I've gotten people to try Ubuntu by showing them > compiz. > > On the other hand, I'd be for letting people choose whether to enable > compiz on install, instead of waiting until they startup the machine > and go to appearance. Novice users might never know there's a way to > turn off the fancy effects. > > Joe Terranova > > [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/10/30/1744232.shtml > I also agree that Ubuntu needs to look great but i don't think that the default compiz settings offer much more than metacity. Yes, compiz IS really cool, and it's great to show off, but you can easily isntall it like everyone did before it came with Ubuntu. Having it available is no less impressive. I guess space might not be such a huge issue, but it still seems unecessary to support. How much does it slow down the system? I think speed is as important as looks. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 15:48 -0500, Danny Piccirillo wrote: > That's good, but why even include compiz in the first place? Doesn't > it just take up extra space that could be used for something more > useful (isn't there a problem with keeping Ubuntu small enough to fit > onto a CD?) In the interest of feature-parity, the relevant question to my mind is: can composited Metacity do everything that the default Compiz can? I'm not talking about what can be enabled with ccsm or simple-ccsm, but what can be enabled in Appearances -> Desktop Effects. If the simple transitions and wall and things that are available in "Normal" and "Extra" (on KDE at the moment, so unsure of phrasing) mode are available then yes, I would remove Compiz and let Metacity handle it. For the record: KWin does handle these things just fine from what I can tell. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
>> As it is, compiz is tried, and Ubuntu falls back on Metacity if it >> doesn't work. So if they don't have the "hardware", they'll use >> Metacity. > That's good, but why even include compiz in the first place? Doesn't it just > take up extra space that could be used for something more useful (isn't > there a problem with keeping Ubuntu small enough to fit onto a CD?) Compiz doesn't actually take up very much space from what it looks. >From a cursory look at package sizes, a few megs. I agree that Compiz is useless. But it does turn heads. When I do presentations, I always show it. It looks cool. I agree with Shuttleworth that Linux needs to be gorgeous [1]. Ubuntu needs the cool factor in order to compete with other OSes. Is it vain? Silly? Useless? yes. But I've gotten people to try Ubuntu by showing them compiz. On the other hand, I'd be for letting people choose whether to enable compiz on install, instead of waiting until they startup the machine and go to appearance. Novice users might never know there's a way to turn off the fancy effects. Joe Terranova [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/10/30/1744232.shtml -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Metacity as a compositing manager
That's good, but why even include compiz in the first place? Doesn't it just take up extra space that could be used for something more useful (isn't there a problem with keeping Ubuntu small enough to fit onto a CD?) On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Joe Terranova wrote: > As it is, compiz is tried, and Ubuntu falls back on Metacity if it > doesn't work. So if they don't have the "hardware", they'll use > Metacity. > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Danny Piccirillo > wrote: > > Would it be a good idea to plan to use Metacity as the default > compositing > > manager for Ubuntu instead of compiz in the future? > > > > Compiz seems mostly unnecessary. If metacity was used, it would be easier > on > > the machine and work for people who don't have the hardware for compiz. > > Anyone who wants all the exra effects can still install compiz, but for > > almost everyone, shouldn't metacity be fine? > > > > -- > > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > > > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Metacity as a compositing manager
Would it be a good idea to plan to use Metacity as the default compositing manager for Ubuntu instead of compiz in the future? Compiz seems mostly unnecessary. If metacity was used, it would be easier on the machine and work for people who don't have the hardware for compiz. Anyone who wants all the exra effects can still install compiz, but for almost everyone, shouldn't metacity be fine? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
