Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Am Mittwoch, den 12.12.2007, 05:06 -0600 schrieb Conrad Knauer: > Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO download is > 690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that could be used > for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB, there are just > two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot (photo manager) and > Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two other programs > which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and GNOME sticky notes. > > In my opinion, these two applications function well enough to warrant > the removal of Mono dependent programs. What is your data migration model? You cannot replace software in each release. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
> What is your data migration model? You cannot replace software in each > release. The data created in these services was stored in a proprietary and non-system wide format? See this is why we need User Services via dbus; what good is an address book or notes if each program stores them in an incompatible format. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Sebastian Heinlein schrieb: > Am Mittwoch, den 12.12.2007, 05:06 -0600 schrieb Conrad Knauer: > >> Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO download is >> 690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that could be used >> for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB, there are just >> two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot (photo manager) and >> Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two other programs >> which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and GNOME sticky notes. >> >> In my opinion, these two applications function well enough to warrant >> the removal of Mono dependent programs. > > What is your data migration model? You cannot replace software in each > release. > actually you dont need any data migration if you remove something from the default install. Existing F-Spot & Tomboy users wont be affected. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 17:22 +0100, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Am Mittwoch, den 12.12.2007, 05:06 -0600 schrieb Conrad Knauer: > > > Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO download is > > 690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that could be used > > for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB, there are just > > two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot (photo manager) and > > Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two other programs > > which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and GNOME sticky notes. > > > > In my opinion, these two applications function well enough to warrant > > the removal of Mono dependent programs. This argument has been made and lost in Launchpad, and the consensus seems to eliminate gThumb. I for one agree with that assessment. F-Spot and gThumb are very similar in capabilities on local images. Though F-Spot's interface is a little cleaner. But the big difference comes in Web2.0 integration. GThumb has none, while F-Spot integrates with Flickr, Picasa, etc. Hands down, this is what end users expect, and it is gThumbs that needs to be eliminated. As for Tomboy vs GNOME sticky notes, this one is even more obvious. Sticky notes needs to go away. GNOME no longer considers it part of the base suite of packages, and has instead worked with Tomboy on tighter and tighter integration. Tomboy can fire links to open on your browser or Nautulus, fire alarms as reminders, and integrates with Evolution. Sticky notes does none of that. I realize the original argument was about the size of Mono. And that is a legitimate argument. But lets also realize functionality and integration needs to be maximized in order to make this distro easy for the noobs it is aimed at. We already have a distro out there that makes sacrifices of number of packages over space... its called DSL. So, when I hear solid arguments on both sides like this one, I generally follow the Dad test (my dad will screw things up faster than my mom because his is more willing to mess with things to "make" them work, mom will just ask). Mom takes pictures with her new digital camera she is getting for Christmas... then asks my dad's help in putting them online so she can share them with my brother in LA, me in Denver, and her sister in Pittsburgh. If they were on a Ubuntu system with gThumb or F-Spot, the pictures can be imported, tagged, and sorted quite well. But with F-Spot, my dad can export to a web page, or use file->export to post those to a Flickr account. Huge win to F-Spot. Taking the same thought process with Tomboy vs Sticky Notes... If I want to take an quick note, both will do the job just fine. But I can also take an email and drop it into a sticky with Tomboy. I can also make the notes appear as to-do items in evolution. If a file on my hard drive is referenced in the note (i.e. Finish sales proposal ~/2008 Sales.odt), I can click on the file name to open it. None of that can be done with Sticky Notes. These two products have been replaced with a Mono based equivalent and both have become standards despite the size hit. There are solid reasons for that. While space is always a concern, the level of integration expected by the modern users can not be sacrificed. And therefore, I would disagree with the OPs suggestion that these products be replaced. If you want to save space, I say get rid of gThumb and Sticky Notes like many other distros have. The mono based replacements have too many modern features to follow the OPs suggestion. Just my $0.02 -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 12:58 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > > F-Spot and gThumb are very similar in capabilities on local images. > > Though F-Spot's interface is a little cleaner. But the big difference > > comes in Web2.0 integration. GThumb has none, while F-Spot integrates > > with Flickr, Picasa, etc. Hands down, this is what end users expect, > > and it is gThumbs that needs to be eliminated. > > Users who want any of these applications can get them from the > repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them > good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should > sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space > instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than > just nice sticky notes and Flicker integration. They get these features in Windows, if we want to reasonably expect to get users to switch over, we need to supply them also. This goes to user expectations. Windows and Mac are the front runners, We need our best foot forward to compete with iPhoto. A better program in the repositories means nothing when you pop that CD in to show the end user they can have the same capabilities with Ubuntu than they can in Windows or Mac. As for me, given the programs that are there, and the ones that will make hesitant users switch, the 60MB must be sacrificed. Putting lesser programs on the disk to add in what? Multimedia is so mainstream that hardware manufacturers are making it available from an otherwise turned off machine. The only think that brings more bling would be codecs, and that is not going to happen for licensing reasons. So, I could not agree with you assertions more. Programs that integrate better with more features are far more important that number of features. I would rather see a second disk than to back off on these features. And I feel a second disk is a huge mistake. > Although I didn't see you mentioning that F-Spots flicker integration > will be removed and moved into Conduit (which we don't include by > default) so you argument does loose some merit with the way things are > going. And if we should be or not was not the question. I have no problem with the conduit. But to install a lesser program to get more software is a DSL type decision. That is what they do best, not us. We need to keep everything about providing a highly usable desktop with the features people expect. After iPhoto, they expect more than gThumb. They expect what F-Spot brings. Like I said, the users have already spoken on this exhaustively in both the forums and Launchpad. My opinion seems to be the overwhelmingly popular one. Quality over quantity... That is what makes Ubuntu the best distro. I would also be curious as to which programs you would choose to include to replace that 60MB? -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Martin Owens escreveu: > Users who want any of these applications can get them from the > repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them > good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should > sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space > instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than > just nice sticky notes and Flicker intergration. Well, if I had to choose, I would vote for the removal and use this space to include more language packs so people who does not use English can have their languages installed without having to be connect to the internet. Specially useful where internet access is not easy/cheap. []s Adilson. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
> F-Spot and gThumb are very similar in capabilities on local images. > Though F-Spot's interface is a little cleaner. But the big difference > comes in Web2.0 integration. GThumb has none, while F-Spot integrates > with Flickr, Picasa, etc. Hands down, this is what end users expect, > and it is gThumbs that needs to be eliminated. Users who want any of these applications can get them from the repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than just nice sticky notes and Flicker intergration. Although I didn't see you mentioning that F-Spots flicker integration will be removed and moved into Conduit (which we don't include by default) so you argument does loose some merit with the way things are going. > As for Tomboy vs GNOME sticky notes, this one is even more obvious. > Sticky notes needs to go away. GNOME no longer considers it part of the > base suite of packages, and has instead worked with Tomboy on tighter > and tighter integration. Tomboy can fire links to open on your browser > or Nautulus, fire alarms as reminders, and integrates with Evolution. > Sticky notes does none of that. Notes are not a core application, I haven't the faintest idea why we include any notes app at all. Some people may find them useful but they can quite easily install this extra application. > I realize the original argument was about the size of Mono. And that is > a legitimate argument. But lets also realize functionality and > integration needs to be maximized in order to make this distro easy for > the noobs it is aimed at. We already have a distro out there that makes > sacrifices of number of packages over space... its called DSL. I think some of these arguments are a little biased; I feel like some of the developers are championing Mono as a principle rather than on technical merits. It's nice that they've invested all this time into learning CLI; But we shouldn't let our ego's run away with us. Mono is big, too big in fact to be reasonably included by default without being biased. I'll be happy to see a small light weight notes and photo application for inclusion. But at the moment these don't exist and we shouldn't be looking for these tiny features when we could be including much better things on the CD. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 13, 2007 1:58 AM, Martin Owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > F-Spot and gThumb are very similar in capabilities on local images. > > Though F-Spot's interface is a little cleaner. But the big difference > > comes in Web2.0 integration. GThumb has none, while F-Spot integrates > > with Flickr, Picasa, etc. Hands down, this is what end users expect, > > and it is gThumbs that needs to be eliminated. > > Users who want any of these applications can get them from the > repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them > good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should > sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space > instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than > just nice sticky notes and Flicker intergration. > This is one of the reason why Linux in general only appeal to geeks, and why Windows is still the primary OS of choice for non-geeks. Tomboy and F-Spot are two most useful and innovative Linux applications in the desktop, removing them will give non-geeks no reason to switch to Linux. This move is headed in a backward direction, and will not provide any solution to solve bug #1, piracy, poor software quality and many other proprietary-model related problems. Mono, is a direct invitation for Microsoft Windows developers to jump in the Linux development scene, to provide more innovations, solutions and man-power. > > As for Tomboy vs GNOME sticky notes, this one is even more obvious. > > Sticky notes needs to go away. GNOME no longer considers it part of the > > base suite of packages, and has instead worked with Tomboy on tighter > > and tighter integration. Tomboy can fire links to open on your browser > > or Nautulus, fire alarms as reminders, and integrates with Evolution. > > Sticky notes does none of that. > > Notes are not a core application, I haven't the faintest idea why we > include any notes app at all. Some people may find them useful but > they can quite easily install this extra application. > > > I realize the original argument was about the size of Mono. And that is > > a legitimate argument. But lets also realize functionality and > > integration needs to be maximized in order to make this distro easy for > > the noobs it is aimed at. We already have a distro out there that makes > > sacrifices of number of packages over space... its called DSL. > > I think some of these arguments are a little biased; I feel like some > of the developers are championing Mono as a principle rather than on > technical merits. It's nice that they've invested all this time into > learning CLI; But we shouldn't let our ego's run away with us. Mono is > big, too big in fact to be reasonably included by default without > being biased. > > I'll be happy to see a small light weight notes and photo application > for inclusion. But at the moment these don't exist and we shouldn't be > looking for these tiny features when we could be including much better > things on the CD. > > Regards, Martin Owens > -- Computer Science Honours and Scholar Student Cisco Certified Network Associate Microsoft Certified Professional Mayers-Briggs Personality Type: INFP GTK+, C, Perl, Python, Ruby, XML, XMLHTTPRequest, XHTML, JavaScript, POSIX Bash (Dash) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 12, 2007 1:37 PM, Joel Bryan Juliano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tomboy and F-Spot are two most useful and innovative Linux applications > in the desktop, removing them will give non-geeks no reason to switch > to Linux. Just an aside, what do you think of Miro? (its got the 'Web 2.0' look and the 1.0 version is ~7MB decompressed; something I'd like to see in the next version of Ubuntu which could easily fit if the WinFOSS is removed, as has also been suggested...) CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
> Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? Sure thing: Inkscape, Conduit, opensync, Glipper, firefox-adblock, rar-free, more languages, obex, gnome parition editor, audacity, gnomebaker, vim (real vim), PGP keys manager, open office draw, any kind of irc program, keep backup 2, graphics tablet integrations, any kind of webcam management software, cheese, devede, atlantik-gtk, compiz manager, start up manager, Storage Manager, schedual, Dohickey. I'm sure some of these things will sneak in, but it's not helpful for developers to have developed this odd, almost religious fascination with including every development library, of every bloated framework out there. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Hang on a second, > This is one of the reason why Linux in general only appeal to geeks, > and why Windows is still the primary OS of choice for non-geeks. > Tomboy and F-Spot are two most useful and innovative Linux applications > in the desktop, removing them will give non-geeks no reason to switch > to Linux. Your saying that computers users have a choice? I never thought they did, I always thought they were told what to use by their friends, co-workers and computer support that windows was the only thing going; not that (as it appears you feel) it's the best thing since sliced bread. > This move is headed in a backward direction, and will not provide any solution > to solve bug #1, piracy, poor software quality and many other > proprietary-model > related problems. We have plenty of great applications, I'd rather see though the base system solidified with good support for more hardware and more functional tools than a massive library for two accessory applications. The only thing you seem to be saying is that any software not installed by default will never be installed. Well if this software is as good and popular as you appear to be saying then people _will_ install it after the fact. Are we building an functional operating system or pandering to the lowest common denominator? > Mono, is a direct invitation for Microsoft Windows developers to jump in > the Linux development scene, to provide more innovations, solutions > and man-power. Because microsoft windows developers are so thick that they need the libraries installed by default? That's not a very good argument for inclusion by default. We have mono, great. now lets not get carried away by filling our precious default cd space with it. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On mer, 2007-12-12 at 12:58 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > for inclusion. But at the moment these don't exist and we shouldn't be > looking for these tiny features when we could be including much better > things on the CD. Hi, Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
> I will even help you with one more I would like to see... Scribus. My > mother uses this along with Inkscape for her scrap-booking (definitely > not a geeky endeavor), and with a few tweaks to the descriptions, could > be a very popular addition. I'll have insist about the sync support, it's not a geeky endeavour; and most people avoid it because of the difficulty. It's a feature we could make better than other platforms, we have all the tools written already. > But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like > to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers > to extend their product to the Linux desktop. That would be a win for > everybody but Microsoft, but that does not disappoint me so much. But as you pointed out, we don't want to include things because it's good for developers, it's an operating system for human beings, not wintel geeks. I'm not sure where this fascination has come from that we need to include mono by default to encourage windows developers. All the developers I know from the windows world move into Linux by programming in python, c++ and java. Not through the .net framework. In fact shouldn't we be installing Eclipse if we're so focused on developers? When we have a _need_ for mono libs by default we can mull it over, but at the moment all I see is some pretty weak arguments and developer bias. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 15:27 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > > Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? > > Sure thing: Inkscape, Conduit, opensync, Glipper, firefox-adblock, > rar-free, more languages, obex, gnome parition editor, audacity, > gnomebaker, vim (real vim), PGP keys manager, open office draw, any > kind of irc program, keep backup 2, graphics tablet integrations, any > kind of webcam management software, cheese, devede, atlantik-gtk, > compiz manager, start up manager, Storage Manager, schedual, Dohickey. I'll give you Inkscape and webcam, but I think the rest such as addons, vim, irc, gnome partition editor, etc really do need to stay in the repos. I will even help you with one more I would like to see... Scribus. My mother uses this along with Inkscape for her scrap-booking (definitely not a geeky endeavor), and with a few tweaks to the descriptions, could be a very popular addition. But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers to extend their product to the Linux desktop. That would be a win for everybody but Microsoft, but that does not disappoint me so much. -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
(could you just send the mail to the list and not to the submitter?) On mer, 2007-12-12 at 15:27 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > > Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? > > Sure thing: Inkscape, Conduit, opensync, Glipper, firefox-adblock, > rar-free, more languages, obex, gnome parition editor, audacity, > gnomebaker, vim (real vim), PGP keys manager, open office draw, any > kind of irc program, keep backup 2, graphics tablet integrations, any > kind of webcam management software, cheese, devede, atlantik-gtk, > compiz manager, start up manager, Storage Manager, schedual, Dohickey. > > I'm sure some of these things will sneak in, but it's not helpful for > developers to have developed this odd, almost religious fascination > with including every development library, of every bloated framework > out there. Did you try to get those added to Ubuntu? Do you think that they are not shipped on the CD only because it's lacking space? Everything you list doesn't seem obvious lack, not having an another IRC client than pidgin is a choice for example. Could you argue with a rational on why you think those should be added? Maybe there is a way to add some of those without having to remove cool applications already installed there Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
> Use the carrot and back off on the whip by showing that they can tweak > existing programs to gain mono But that doesn't require mono to be installed by default does it? we're not trying to prove a point by including this software are we? I hope not. > Its about making the transition easier for the new user. Right, but the transition is made easier by increasing the default support in a number of areas, not little accessories that take up 10% of the CD. We could be doing so much more and yet instead of serving our users we choose to prove points and try and bribe windows developers with the promise of complete compatibility (fallacy imo) > Your application suggestions falls on the category of specific people, we are > not all IT's, Computer Scientists. Ah right yes, copy and paste is something only scientists use. firefox-adblock? why I only ever see that on geeky machines, I believe it comes with a heroes wallpaper even. burning cd's is a little more geeky but pgp? shouldn't we include the management of security features so we can build upon them later? hardware support is key and shouldn't be secondary, nor should the ability to open common files. I fail to see your Computer Scientists argument, I run a LoCo on the front lines and I see plenty of teachers, social workers and lawyers who want the kind of functionality I've mentioned. I'd also be damn cautious about the f-spot internet integration, not only is it being removed in future versions; but having support for speific websites without a standardised communication protocol is a lock-in creating bias and we shouldn't stand for that sort of thing. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 13, 2007 4:27 AM, Martin Owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? > > Conduit, opensync, Glipper, firefox-adblock, > rar-free, more languages, obex, gnome parition editor, audacity, > gnomebaker, vim (real vim), PGP keys manager, open office draw, any > kind of irc program, keep backup 2, graphics tablet integrations, any > kind of webcam management software, cheese, devede, atlantik-gtk, > compiz manager, start up manager, Storage Manager, schedual, Dohickey. > It may be worth to you, but it's worthless for an average user who found F-Spot to be more useful to post his daughter's birthday photos in the Internet. Your application suggestions falls on the category of specific people, we are not all IT's, Computer Scientists. There are also writers, social workers, teachers, professors, psychologists, lawyers, counselors, etc. -- Computer Science Honours and Scholar Student Cisco Certified Network Associate Microsoft Certified Professional Mayers-Briggs Personality Type: INFP GTK+, C, Perl, Python, Ruby, XML, XMLHTTPRequest, XHTML, JavaScript, POSIX Bash (Dash) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 15:46 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: > > I will even help you with one more I would like to see... Scribus. My > > mother uses this along with Inkscape for her scrap-booking (definitely > > not a geeky endeavor), and with a few tweaks to the descriptions, could > > be a very popular addition. > > I'll have insist about the sync support, it's not a geeky endeavour; > and most people avoid it because of the difficulty. It's a feature we > could make better than other platforms, we have all the tools written > already. Sync is definitely gray area (goes to my earlier quality over quantity argument). The problem is that I have yet to see a sync client that truly does it all. They all claim to, but reality is a bit more sketchy. Right now, I will settle for one that does most, reasonably... still waiting > > But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like > > to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers > > to extend their product to the Linux desktop. That would be a win for > > everybody but Microsoft, but that does not disappoint me so much. > > But as you pointed out, we don't want to include things because it's > good for developers, it's an operating system for human beings, not > wintel geeks. I'm not sure where this fascination has come from that > we need to include mono by default to encourage windows developers. > All the developers I know from the windows world move into Linux by > programming in python, c++ and java. Not through the .net framework. > In fact shouldn't we be installing Eclipse if we're so focused on > developers? You are talking tools, and those that are taking the effort to learn Linux. One of the areas where I think we can all do better is to encourage Wintel geeks to stop being hostile to Linux. Encourage the use of tools such as Wine and mono. Use the carrot and back off on the whip by showing that they can tweak existing programs to gain mono and Wine compatibility, and instantly grow their market without having to actually write for Linux. This then causes more of a crutch on mono, and extends the conversation to Wine. Which come to think about it, would be great to add to the base install. Its about making the transition easier for the new user. Two other programs that by the way also use the mono runtime are Beagle (ok stop laughing, I turn it off too), and gnome-rdp used to access Windows desktops. Less so in homes, but that is extremely useful in businesses, or more importantly... workers at home. Again, services that are built into Windows, so they should be represented in Linux so noobs can see that it can be done easily. The easier they see the transition, the more likely they will be to start the journey. -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Kevin Fries wrote: > I will even help you with one more I would like to see... Scribus. My > mother uses this along with Inkscape for her scrap-booking (definitely > not a geeky endeavor), and with a few tweaks to the descriptions, could > be a very popular addition. > I second that, but this adds a Qt dependency. > But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like > to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers > to extend their product to the Linux desktop. That would be a win for > everybody but Microsoft, but that does not disappoint me so much. > I guess you've read paranoid scenarios like this one: http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono I'd rather hope that Mono stays an exception in the FLOSS world, only using it for IT that want to convert Windows software or that develop corporation-specific apps. Encouraging the use of Mono in GNOME and default Desktops is IMHO very dangerous until we have got certitudes about patents. Windows developers should better change their practices and philosophy. Though, I agree F-Spot is one of our killer apps, and that GThumb is not as user-friendly as we may expect. May we hope it evolves? It may be worth to care about it, since it has many nice features, and only lacks a few (UI for the most part, and Conduit will come). Cheers, Milan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I'll have to answer some of these in the wrong order, and I've put it back on list since it's an important thread regardless. > I for one am done with this conversation. You just don't seem to get > it. I am not sure why you refuse to listen, but please, find another > windmill OK? This is a discussion, not a preaching session. bullying, braying and ignoring what the other person is putting across don't make for good solutions. your angry because instead of meeting all of my objections with counter arguments your forced to sulk. If your going to involve yourself in discussions can you have the stamina to argue properly? > Yes it does. It requires that the foundation be in place so these types > of applications can flourish. Having programs already built on those > foundations sends the message that the water is fine, come on in. No it doesn't, this is an obsession with attracting windows programmers who would be quite happy for their program to lean of non default mono dependencies. I feel your using this argument as a crutch in place of something of substance. I repeat that it is not the job of the default install to cater to developers. It's to serve ubuntu users. > You are arguing some someone who is pissed off that their pet > project was not included, and you worked so hard on > it. Ah yes you noticed that, funny I've never tried to get it into the default install because 1) it's not ready (alpha) and 2) most of it will go into hal and you'll be including it anyway. I'm am glad you went fishing for excuses though, nice to be proven right. > But joe sixpack expects the functionality to be there. You know I hate that term, it's so American. anyway, I find most of the users your talking about don't get a computer and decide to install ubuntu from the CD. more likely they are to have a friend of variable skill who "knows something about computers" to install it and anything else that joe uses. > You are also confusing support simplicity with transition simplicity. I snipped this entire section, OK I'm more concerned with serving our existing user base than I am about attracting new users. This is where a lot of distros go wrong, they get obsessive about attracting new users and it leads to some unfortunate side effects. You remember what gimmicks are right? well don't let ubuntu be the linux for gimmicks. because all the developers care about is hauling new users in. If we look after our existing users by solving some of their real problems, new users will come of their own accord. > That must be priority, nothing else. A very dangerous way to think, so black and white and yet so ferocious. I'm reminded at this point about how many of the developers on this list are either dealing with real deployments or spend time on ubuntu forums. They think your ignoring their problems. And wouldn't you just go and prove them right with tunnel vision comments like that. Kevin, I don't mind if your angry and in a sulk about this thread, you shouldn't be. nor should you expect everyone to agree to the same things. But we need to at least reach a point where we agree to disagree. We obviously have different focuses in both how we serve the public and the best ways to encourage participation. I'm quite happy to discuss all of these things with you. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 12, 2007 2:36 PM, Kevin Fries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > any > > kind of webcam management software, cheese > > I'll give you Inkscape and webcam, but I think the rest such as addons, > vim, irc, gnome partition editor, etc really do need to stay in the > repos. I'm going to second cheese; its fun but is still a good UI if you want to take basic pics or vids w/o the silly filters. > But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like > to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers > to extend their product to the Linux desktop. So going the other way from removing Mono, are there any mono-based libre software apps in the repos you'd like to see moved onto the default desktop? CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 18:51 -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote: > On Dec 12, 2007 2:36 PM, Kevin Fries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So going the other way from removing Mono, are there any mono-based > libre software apps in the repos you'd like to see moved onto the > default desktop? Not specifically. What I was really referencing was more of a "lets start building more apps with Mono that are Windows ports" type of argument. But as some have correctly pointed out, that may be a bit tricky given that Linux has supposedly violated every patent that Microsoft has ever owned, and several they have not even written yet, lol. I feel that Mono is that safe haven you give Windows developers. That carrot to encourage them to take that .NET app, and while not breaking .NET capabilities, also allows them to expand their audience. For that reason alone, I would like to see the Linux community put more apps on Mono. The more Windows apps that can easily convert to Linux compatibility, the better for Linux users, the Linux community in general and Ubuntu in specific. Much better idea in the long run than adding a bunch of geek apps like gParted and VIM. -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
