Re: Pulse Audio Sound Levels
On 12 March 2013 00:44, Lanoxx wrote: > Hi, > > I have a sound system from Teufel (Concept C 200) which has a built in USB > sound card and an analogue aux input. When I connect the USB cable to my > computer and the aux cable to my radio, then the sound of the radio does not > play. When I unplug the USB cable the sound from the radio starts playing > immediately. I have found out from the hardware manual that the sound card > is able to control the aux output and mute it or control the volume. On > windows it is possible to simultaneously enable both usb and aux inputs (see > [1]). I have not found any way to do the same in Ubuntu so far and I would > like to know if this is a bug (or missing feature) in which case I would > report it on launchpad, or if I simply haven't found the right option. > > I have already tried to use alsamixer and pavucontrol. In alsamixer i can > see that the usb sound card has separate "speaker" and "line" devices, but > changing the volume does not affect the output. In pavucontrol there is > simply no way to see the difference between "speaker" and "line" as there is > only a single volume control for the usb sound card. This would probably be better sent to the ubuntu users list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users Colin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio being disabled
(MTA constraints) What do you mean by "disabled"? On Oct 15, 2009 8:27 AM, "John Vivirito" wrote: I have seen in last few releases that PA gets disabled when i reboot. This is not due to updates or reboot i dont think since it happens all the time after updates than reboot. -- Sincerely Yours, John Vivirito https://launchpad.net/~gnomefreak https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnVivirito Linux User# 414246 "How can i get lost, if i have no where to go" -- Metallica from Unforgiven III -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/12 Lukas Hejtmanek > not offending, just curious, what are the things you like on PA? > One positive experience here: More than two years ago, I bought a Sony-Ericsson bluetooth headset. I have tried it with every single Ubuntu release since then, only to end up deeply frustrated every time: sometimes it was utterly impossible to make it run at all, sometimes sound was transfered in only one direction, sometimes it would work for a few minutes and then stop, requiring a reboot to work again. And even when it worked, Skype didn't manage to handle it, and other programs such as Ekiga would barely work. This all changed in Karmic beta. I paired the headset using the new functionality in the bluetooth apple, started the new beta version of Skype and proceeded to have a three-hour call using the headset. No glitches at all! This new smoothness can be attributed in no small part to PulseAudio. They have done a very good job of collaborating with the Bluez (Linux Bluetooth stack) project and apparently also with Skype to achieve this. The best part is that PulseAudio recognizes automatically that Skype's streams are voice-related, and routes them automatically to the headset. Before starting Skype, I was listening to music through my stereo, and I didn't have to configure anything for Skype to use the headset, it just happened. I also think (but haven't tried it as yet) that if you detach the headset during a call, PulseAudio will move the sound on the fly to other hardware (e.g., standard speakers and microphone). So, all in all, PulseAudio has a huge potential for enhancing Ubuntu's usability. Granted, some pieces seem to still be falling into place, but it's definitely getting there. Cheers, M. S. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
Switching outputs on the fly (I was sceptical, but when I started to use USB headphones it is no way back), when I switch USB ports from one side of laptop to another, output is just switched and it just works. With Karmic, volume per application is starting to make sense. And I really hope Empathy and Skype use this feature extensively. Of course sound mixing working without any command line woodoo is also a win. Cheers, Peter. 2009/10/12 Lukas Hejtmanek : > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:16:39PM +0300, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: >> As for a topic - I have criticized PulseAudio as being very bloating >> edge and therefore not suitable for default desktop. However, again, >> devs have answered criticism with better code, inegration and bug >> fixes. Yes, there are issues, and inclusion of it felt very early and >> sure did lot of damage on Ubuntu presence. However, I start to feel >> that it was worth it, because in 2.28 PA starts to show it's true >> colors and so far I really like what I see. > > not offending, just curious, what are the things you like on PA? > > -- > Lukáš Hejtmánek > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:16:39PM +0300, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: > As for a topic - I have criticized PulseAudio as being very bloating > edge and therefore not suitable for default desktop. However, again, > devs have answered criticism with better code, inegration and bug > fixes. Yes, there are issues, and inclusion of it felt very early and > sure did lot of damage on Ubuntu presence. However, I start to feel > that it was worth it, because in 2.28 PA starts to show it's true > colors and so far I really like what I see. not offending, just curious, what are the things you like on PA? -- Lukáš Hejtmánek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Joao Pinto wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia > wrote: > > > > I am pointing out that empathy at the moment is widely broken, and none > > of the feature it promises are there. I don't think you can install > > ubuntu on a fresh computer and be sure voice calls with empathy will > > work at all. I don't think you can really use empathy for IRC. I don't > > think empathy will imports accounts from pidgin in a reliable way. > > > > How do I know these things, is because I tried it. When it'll be ready, > > it will be a pleasure to use it. I am not saying distributors should > > "resist" to change. > > Your mail would be much more clear if you listed the bug numbers for > the problems you are describing. > Being "widely broken" for you does not mean is widely broken in general. > Maybe you should start a new discussion about Empathy being broken (or not) as this has little to do with Pulseaudio Thanks, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > > I am pointing out that empathy at the moment is widely broken, and none > of the feature it promises are there. I don't think you can install > ubuntu on a fresh computer and be sure voice calls with empathy will > work at all. I don't think you can really use empathy for IRC. I don't > think empathy will imports accounts from pidgin in a reliable way. > > How do I know these things, is because I tried it. When it'll be ready, > it will be a pleasure to use it. I am not saying distributors should > "resist" to change. Your mail would be much more clear if you listed the bug numbers for the problems you are describing. Being "widely broken" for you does not mean is widely broken in general. > > V. > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/11 Vincenzo Ciancia : > Il 10/10/2009 21:16, Peteris Krisjanis ha scritto: >> >> Sorry, I can't agree more either. You don't even offer your reasoning >> why there is no strong reasons. For me, integrity, visual style, etc. >> makes it much better and welcome in Ubuntu desktop than Pidgin. And it >> has been a class example why we do evaluate apps and why they are >> given second chance if they improve as Empathy did. > > I am pointing out that empathy at the moment is widely broken, and none of > the feature it promises are there. I don't think you can install ubuntu on a > fresh computer and be sure voice calls with empathy will work at all. > I don't think you can really use empathy for IRC. I don't think empathy will > imports accounts from pidgin in a reliable way. > > How do I know these things, is because I tried it. When it'll be ready, it > will be a pleasure to use it. I am not saying distributors should "resist" > to change. Really? IRC works, I used Empathy to connect to freenode for last two weeks. Sure, there are rough edges, but it is very usable without big effort. About calls - I have done them in the past (using Empathy from PPA about half a year ago) and they worked (problems where if you use different input than default (USB headset for example), PA switched back to default input all the time.). I haven't tried now though, but I really doubt that situation generally is worse than before :) Sorry, I simply don't see it as "wildely broken". It has bugs as any new software, but it moves in right direction. Cheers, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
Il 10/10/2009 21:16, Peteris Krisjanis ha scritto: > Sorry, I can't agree more either. You don't even offer your reasoning > why there is no strong reasons. For me, integrity, visual style, etc. > makes it much better and welcome in Ubuntu desktop than Pidgin. And it > has been a class example why we do evaluate apps and why they are > given second chance if they improve as Empathy did. I am pointing out that empathy at the moment is widely broken, and none of the feature it promises are there. I don't think you can install ubuntu on a fresh computer and be sure voice calls with empathy will work at all. I don't think you can really use empathy for IRC. I don't think empathy will imports accounts from pidgin in a reliable way. How do I know these things, is because I tried it. When it'll be ready, it will be a pleasure to use it. I am not saying distributors should "resist" to change. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/10 Lukas Hejtmanek : > hmm, let me see. ALSA is broken. OK. How do we fix it? Insert new layer > between ALSA and Apps. (PA). Oh no, PA is also broken. (as you stated that PA > sooner or later solves its problems). So I should ask, why should we fix PA > rather > than fix ALSA? You don't seem to be reading closely. No one is fixing PA _instead of_ ALSA. Bugs are being fixed throughout the stack. It's not a zero-sum game, so stop making it seem so. -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/10 Lukas Hejtmanek : > not so fast. gnome-settings-daemon tries to connect to pulse. multimedia keys > work no more without pulse. gnome-volume-control does nothing without pulse. I can't reproduce any of these symptoms with PA completely disabled (no autospawn, PA killed). > I had no problems with pure alsa. Which of course has absolutely no bearing at all with whether ALSA needs to be fixed. -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/10 Lukas Hejtmanek : > On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 04:52:43PM -0400, Daniel Chen wrote: >> I'm not surprised that ALSA "did everything [you] ever wanted from >> it." However, it does not change that there were latent bugs. Clearly >> they existed despite ALSA working for you. > > hmm, let me see. ALSA is broken. OK. How do we fix it? Insert new layer > between ALSA and Apps. (PA). Oh no, PA is also broken. (as you stated that PA > sooner or later solves its problems). So I should ask, why should we fix PA > rather > than fix ALSA? I'm no expert on the field, but here is how I understand it: ALSA is not broken. The kernel part is used to talk to devices and to give a low level API to userland. This works very well. But the userspace ALSA library is not sufficient for modern needs. ALSA doesn't do audio over networking or Bluetooth, since those things can't be done in the kernel (as a policy). A layer was *missing*. The ALSA userspace library could have been hacked up to meet these requirements, but you'd get something similar to PulseAudio. It's a necessary layer. In addition there was the sound server mess. You'd have plain ALSA, plain OSS, ESD, Arts, and none were compatible with each other. If we just call PulseAudio good, and all start using it (which has happened), then that problem is solved. In the mean time there are a few emulation layers with varying degree of workingness, but it's a matter of time before those are obsolete or fixed. And since the OSS API is a bad idea according to the PA developers, people like me who like the open/close/read/write simplicity of OSS can instead just use the PulseAudio Simple API, which is essentially the OSS API. ;) http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/pulseaudio/doxygen/simple.html -- Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/9 Mario Vukelic : > On Fri, 2009-10-09 at 14:50 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: >> Do you mean that I have a possibly remote possibility of convincing the >> ubuntu developers to ship pidgin instead of empathy? Do I need to write >> a scientific paper on that, or is it possible that someone actually does >> an unbiased comparison by themselves? > > Speaking as a non-developer, I would say yes, at the appropriate time. > Even I know that planned changes are tracked at Launchpad: > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ > > I would think that thoughtful input would have had an effect: > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic?searchtext=pidgin > > Regarding Pidgin, please note that AFAIK it of course won't be > uninstalled when upgrading. It remains a first-class citizen in "main", > and you are welcome to install it in new installations, same as with all > kinds of other applications. E.g., I always install and use a number of > other video players for different purposes, but it's still very possible > to understand the default choice of Totem, even if it misses a number of > features for some of my tastes. First of all, why would they have to do that (t.i. change back to Pidgin as default)? I think change was discussed very extensively, Empathy had been tested for two years by GNOME devs before it was accepted as official module. In result Empathy grow stronger, better and features richer. in this time, Pidgin, while being overwhelmingly popular, have resisted integration requests and stagnated feature-wise. In result, I think it was natural to choose Empathy over Pidgin. Yes, Pidgin users doing fresh install have to install it from repos using Ubuntu Software Center. But with current ease of using it, it is a non-issue. >> No, no, I can't agree. I like new software but there must be a measure. >> Pulseaudio in the end could be easily disabled in hardy, but e.g. >> empathy can not make sense, there are no strong reasons to use it, >> except that it is "a gnome thing" but also pidgin is. Sorry, I can't agree more either. You don't even offer your reasoning why there is no strong reasons. For me, integrity, visual style, etc. makes it much better and welcome in Ubuntu desktop than Pidgin. And it has been a class example why we do evaluate apps and why they are given second chance if they improve as Empathy did. As for a topic - I have criticized PulseAudio as being very bloating edge and therefore not suitable for default desktop. However, again, devs have answered criticism with better code, inegration and bug fixes. Yes, there are issues, and inclusion of it felt very early and sure did lot of damage on Ubuntu presence. However, I start to feel that it was worth it, because in 2.28 PA starts to show it's true colors and so far I really like what I see. Whatever PA should have lot of integration with rest of the desktop I don't know. ALSA purists still should have possibility to run Ubuntu. However, for majority of users PA is right way forward. Cheers, Peter -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 04:52:43PM -0400, Daniel Chen wrote: > I'm not surprised that ALSA "did everything [you] ever wanted from > it." However, it does not change that there were latent bugs. Clearly > they existed despite ALSA working for you. hmm, let me see. ALSA is broken. OK. How do we fix it? Insert new layer between ALSA and Apps. (PA). Oh no, PA is also broken. (as you stated that PA sooner or later solves its problems). So I should ask, why should we fix PA rather than fix ALSA? -- Lukáš Hejtmánek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 08:40:33AM -0400, Daniel Chen wrote: > (4) has always been possible. It has always been easy to use > PulseAudio and discover its integration deficiencies. It has not > always been easy to disable PulseAudio, but it certainly remains > straightforward for a savvy user: > > touch ~/.pulse_a11y_nostart > echo autospawn = no|tee -a ~/.pulse/client.conf > killall pulseaudio not so fast. gnome-settings-daemon tries to connect to pulse. multimedia keys work no more without pulse. gnome-volume-control does nothing without pulse. I had no problems with pure alsa. -- Lukáš Hejtmánek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Fri, 2009-10-09 at 14:50 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > Do you mean that I have a possibly remote possibility of convincing the > ubuntu developers to ship pidgin instead of empathy? Do I need to write > a scientific paper on that, or is it possible that someone actually does > an unbiased comparison by themselves? Speaking as a non-developer, I would say yes, at the appropriate time. Even I know that planned changes are tracked at Launchpad: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ I would think that thoughtful input would have had an effect: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic?searchtext=pidgin Regarding Pidgin, please note that AFAIK it of course won't be uninstalled when upgrading. It remains a first-class citizen in "main", and you are welcome to install it in new installations, same as with all kinds of other applications. E.g., I always install and use a number of other video players for different purposes, but it's still very possible to understand the default choice of Totem, even if it misses a number of features for some of my tastes. > No, no, I can't agree. I like new software but there must be a measure. > Pulseaudio in the end could be easily disabled in hardy, but e.g. > empathy can not make sense, there are no strong reasons to use it, > except that it is "a gnome thing" but also pidgin is. I'm not an IM user, but I think you are missing the vast improvements to all-round communication in Gnome that Empathy promises, though I'm not qualified to comment about its current state. Mario -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, 2009-10-08 at 08:40 -0400, Daniel Chen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > > The real problem that nobody seemed ever to be getting is that when you > > introduce huge regressions, then you probably should 1) either not > > distribute the software yet 2) or put more energy into bug fixing for > > the particular software, or at least have strong, or 3) have convincing > > reasons for forcing people to "enjoy" the regressions while they could > > as well live happily with the previously used one, or 4) make it easy > > for people to try the new solution, and if it fails, revert to the old > > All valid points, but: > > (1) is a catch-22: software does not get fixed if no one uses it. You > need real, difficult bugs to be reported, i.e., real testing. > Testers use the software, I have been a tester, we all probably are or have been. But ubuntu should perhaps be more inclined to abandon software even after testing, that is, the software stays there for the alphas, but if it's still broken it goes away in the beta. Otherwise it's like saying that end-users really are testers, it must not be the case. > > video calls. I never succeded in having it work for voice/video. And > it > > is so badly broken in other areas I really wonder how you all can be > so > > blind. > > You seem to use "you all" as if you can't effect change within the > source development. Do you mean that I have a possibly remote possibility of convincing the ubuntu developers to ship pidgin instead of empathy? Do I need to write a scientific paper on that, or is it possible that someone actually does an unbiased comparison by themselves? > No need for experimental; just look at all the bug reports filed > affecting flashplugin-nonfree, nspluginwrapper, firefox-3.0, alsa-lib, > and pulseaudio. The sad thing is that we could have shipped a two-line > change to /etc/pulse/default.pa that would have alleviated nearly all > of the (users') showstoppers. The change remains in my > pulseaudio/hardy bzr branch. > > Skype fundamentally misused the alsa-lib API. PulseAudio "broke" Skype > is a horrible non-example. > Skype is an horrible example of software by itself, but it is a software that changed the life of people. It was very bad that in hardy pulseaudio was enabled by default even if it was very clear that it fought with skype. Because that meant that dual-boot still felt the need to reboot. No, no, I can't agree. I like new software but there must be a measure. Pulseaudio in the end could be easily disabled in hardy, but e.g. empathy can not make sense, there are no strong reasons to use it, except that it is "a gnome thing" but also pidgin is. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, 2009-10-08 at 16:59 -0400, Stuart Read wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Daniel Chen wrote: > > > > I don't think the situation is nearly as bleak as you paint it here, > > Hear, hear. I don't really know anything about audio but when I > started using Ubuntu (Dapper) it was bad (for me). Now, every release > the audio situation on my old craptop gets better and easier to use. > So thanks. > -Stuart > I want to also insert my kudos to the Karmic team, audio is indeed getting better with each new release. I chalk this up to the hard work of the community, PA, Alsa and apps. Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Remco wrote: > Why has it not been changed in Hardy? Did it break other stuff? Firstly, it was too late to make the change. Secondly, it breaks with upstream's (PA's) adamant policy that (ALSA) hw: be used by default, not dmix: or dsnoop:. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Daniel Chen wrote: > > I don't think the situation is nearly as bleak as you paint it here, Hear, hear. I don't really know anything about audio but when I started using Ubuntu (Dapper) it was bad (for me). Now, every release the audio situation on my old craptop gets better and easier to use. So thanks. -Stuart -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 22:55, Daniel Chen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Remco wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 14:40, Daniel Chen wrote: >>> The sad thing is that we could have shipped a two-line >>> change to /etc/pulse/default.pa that would have alleviated nearly all >>> of the (users') showstoppers. The change remains in my >>> pulseaudio/hardy bzr branch. >> >> Why? > > What? > Why has it not been changed in Hardy? Did it break other stuff? -- Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Remco wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 14:40, Daniel Chen wrote: >> The sad thing is that we could have shipped a two-line >> change to /etc/pulse/default.pa that would have alleviated nearly all >> of the (users') showstoppers. The change remains in my >> pulseaudio/hardy bzr branch. > > Why? What? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Martin Olsson wrote: > Sound was broken for me in all releases before hardy and then > in hardy it worked _perfectly_ with Skype, Flash etc. Sound Again, just because it worked for you does not mean that it wasn't broken. If you care to look outside your hardware and your configuration, you'll see it clearly. > notice; ALSA did everything I ever wanted from it. Anyway, > then came jaunty and it was broken again. Now in karmic > alpha I got audio back but I got these extremely load sparks > and cracks which give me a really poor audio experience. I'm not surprised that ALSA "did everything [you] ever wanted from it." However, it does not change that there were latent bugs. Clearly they existed despite ALSA working for you. As for Karmic, are you using the ubuntu-audio-dev PPA? If not, you should. > By now it's obvious that karmic as well with line up along > with the releases that did not reach back up to the level > where ALSA was for me. I honestly wonder, when will it stop? Pretty clearly, you can continue to use Hardy. When you choose to test a development release that becomes a stable release, you choose to test an entirely different stack. Developments are quick in the audio world. You may not follow the git commits and the breakages - and you shouldn't be required to - but just because things appear to continue to be broken doesn't mean no one cares or no one is working to fix the regressions. > I have a _lot_ of respect for the work that the Ubuntu audio > team (and Lennart) is doing but the TB decision to accept > PA into Ubuntu was a _BIG_ mistake. The appropriate action > would have been to talk some sense into upstream. If you How do you intend to "talk some sense into upstream"? Upstream, presuming you mean PulseAudio, is _one_ project. Its success in any distribution depends on perfect alignment of the layers beneath it: linux, alsa-lib(, and to some extent, alsa-plugins). Every current desktop Linux distribution ships a different combination of stack components. Drilling down, even the linux configurations are different. Even the compiler flags are different. A more persuasive test is to take the precise Fedora 12 configuration of PulseAudio and demonstrate that it works remarkably better in Ubuntu Karmic than Ubuntu Karmic's. In other words, you need to maintain the precise configuration across the board before you can really say something is broken and thus needs to be beaten into upstream. > I was very glad that Canonical posted a job listing for > "Desktop Architect – Sound Experience" recently, clearly > someone is noticing this and pulling the right strings. My understanding is that it is more a UI position. > I do definitely think following upstream is the only sensible > thing to do but not to follow them into an 18 month walk in the > valley of death without water. I don't think the situation is nearly as bleak as you paint it here, but I caution you to consider the myriad hardware combinations that wreak havoc on the default PA configuration. In other words, it may suck for "you", but it sucks a whole lot worse for people in the trenches, because there are thousands of "you" with "your" craptastic hardware, and the people in the trenches have to balance thousands of configurations. -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
Daniel Chen wrote: > Just because ALSA has appeared to be > sufficient in the past does not mean that it is, or even will be, > sufficient. Saying that ALSA only "appeared to be sufficient" feels Sound was broken for me in all releases before hardy and then in hardy it worked _perfectly_ with Skype, Flash etc. Sound plackback _and_ recording. Then PulseAudio was introduced and when I upgraded to intrepid alpha I lost audio. It was a test release so I expected it, but it was still broken in final which was sad. I read all the pro-PA arguments and I thought okay so maybe maybe it's a good thing if we'll get better sound for other cards or something (because mine sure worked fine in ALSA). Maybe I didn't had advanced buffering, no network streams and no powersave but honestly I didn't even notice; ALSA did everything I ever wanted from it. Anyway, then came jaunty and it was broken again. Now in karmic alpha I got audio back but I got these extremely load sparks and cracks which give me a really poor audio experience. By now it's obvious that karmic as well with line up along with the releases that did not reach back up to the level where ALSA was for me. I honestly wonder, when will it stop? The bug I filed after upgrading to karmic is here (alsa-info included): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/443364 I have a _lot_ of respect for the work that the Ubuntu audio team (and Lennart) is doing but the TB decision to accept PA into Ubuntu was a _BIG_ mistake. The appropriate action would have been to talk some sense into upstream. If you search for "crackling sound" in LP you quickly see that these problems are not related to a few specific cards, it's tons of people suffering through this: https://launchpad.net/+search?field.text=crackling+audio&field.actions.search=Search I was very glad that Canonical posted a job listing for "Desktop Architect – Sound Experience" recently, clearly someone is noticing this and pulling the right strings. Also, it's not just PA; we've also had the intel gfx driver migration. That was not exactly a walk in the park either, even though it was handled a lot more smoothly than PA. In that case Ubuntu remained on a relatively stable version while upstream was fixing PILES of bugs filed by testers using xorg-edgers etc. If intel had done it "the PA way", we would have had a BLACK EMPTY SCREEN in not just 1 _stable_ release but 2 stable releases, and then a flickering screen in the third _stable_ release. I do definitely think following upstream is the only sensible thing to do but not to follow them into an 18 month walk in the valley of death without water. Let's just not do that again, let's try to talk some sense into upstream instead if similar disruptive chaos approaches. Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
Le jeudi 08 octobre 2009 à 14:14 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia a écrit : > Ubuntu did not show particular interest in any of the above > policies. Typically, the new software replaces the old one, period. It's simply not true. GNOME 2.26 (ie jaunty cycle) enforced the pulseaudio requirement and we did distro change several GNOME components to not force that upon our users. The thing is that spending efforts to go against upstream is a waste of energy since: - those efforts are not spent fixing issues - you don't benefit from upstream changes - you don't work with upstream to improve things and create your own set of issues nobody will be wanting to look at for you We did follow upstream this cycle because now is about time to follow upstream and get things sorted if we want ubuntu to be good for the next lts, using old years versions just don't work, you stay on the same bugs and don't benefit from new technologies, work from other people, over time it also break extra softwares which rely on things you refuse to use, etc > See > e.g. the shiny new IM software that will replace the old one, and > karmic > users will love. The only advantage that it should offer is voice and > video calls. I never succeded in having it work for voice/video. And > it > is so badly broken in other areas Could you give details on how it's broken for you? We did the technology change this cycle to be ready for the lts version. You seem to miss one of the reason which motivated the change which is the telepathy stack which will allow better desktop integration (sharing screen over vnc is one thing ready this cycle, next versions should allow you to share things like your music with your im contacts too for example). Note that upgraders are not migrated and pidgin is still available for those who install karmic and want to use it. The user feedback showed some issues but that things are mostly working for most users too. Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 14:40, Daniel Chen wrote: > The sad thing is that we could have shipped a two-line > change to /etc/pulse/default.pa that would have alleviated nearly all > of the (users') showstoppers. The change remains in my > pulseaudio/hardy bzr branch. Why? -- Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > The real problem that nobody seemed ever to be getting is that when you > introduce huge regressions, then you probably should 1) either not > distribute the software yet 2) or put more energy into bug fixing for > the particular software, or at least have strong, or 3) have convincing > reasons for forcing people to "enjoy" the regressions while they could > as well live happily with the previously used one, or 4) make it easy > for people to try the new solution, and if it fails, revert to the old All valid points, but: (1) is a catch-22: software does not get fixed if no one uses it. You need real, difficult bugs to be reported, i.e., real testing. (2) requires that clueful people dedicate resources. Resources are not just economic. As I've stated previously, finding people who know the stack intimately is nontrivial. (4) has always been possible. It has always been easy to use PulseAudio and discover its integration deficiencies. It has not always been easy to disable PulseAudio, but it certainly remains straightforward for a savvy user: touch ~/.pulse_a11y_nostart echo autospawn = no|tee -a ~/.pulse/client.conf killall pulseaudio > video calls. I never succeded in having it work for voice/video. And it > is so badly broken in other areas I really wonder how you all can be so > blind. You seem to use "you all" as if you can't effect change within the source development. > Asking users to start contributing proves that there is no sufficient > manpower to fix bugs. But perhaps people could live without the new > software and related regressions? Now in the case of pulseaudio, for me, There has always been a manpower issue. Realistically, people need to step up. I'm a bit tired of spending all my free time doing this for naught. Living without PulseAudio is possible, but which bugs would you prioritize? For instance, how easily would you find bugs in alsa-lib and linux if you don't have hard but useful test cases? Empirically, not easily at all. Significant bugs in both alsa-lib and linux sat undiscovered and unfixed for _eleven years_ before PulseAudio finally revealed them. > But are there experimetnal measurements of the impact the introduction > of pulseaudio had in hardy on users? Empirically, I saw that it broke > skype for everybody I knew. No need for experimental; just look at all the bug reports filed affecting flashplugin-nonfree, nspluginwrapper, firefox-3.0, alsa-lib, and pulseaudio. The sad thing is that we could have shipped a two-line change to /etc/pulse/default.pa that would have alleviated nearly all of the (users') showstoppers. The change remains in my pulseaudio/hardy bzr branch. Skype fundamentally misused the alsa-lib API. PulseAudio "broke" Skype is a horrible non-example. -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 23:32 -0400, Daniel Chen wrote: > > > Granted, fixing things upstream is generally smiled upon more so than > focusing on a particular distribution. In the case of stellar Ubuntu > audio bugs, perhaps contributing more than "just testing" is way > forward? The real problem that nobody seemed ever to be getting is that when you introduce huge regressions, then you probably should 1) either not distribute the software yet 2) or put more energy into bug fixing for the particular software, or at least have strong, or 3) have convincing reasons for forcing people to "enjoy" the regressions while they could as well live happily with the previously used one, or 4) make it easy for people to try the new solution, and if it fails, revert to the old one. Ubuntu did not show particular interest in any of the above policies. Typically, the new software replaces the old one, period. See e.g. the shiny new IM software that will replace the old one, and karmic users will love. The only advantage that it should offer is voice and video calls. I never succeded in having it work for voice/video. And it is so badly broken in other areas I really wonder how you all can be so blind. Asking users to start contributing proves that there is no sufficient manpower to fix bugs. But perhaps people could live without the new software and related regressions? Now in the case of pulseaudio, for me, the benefits are greater than the regressions. I personally can use skype while watching a flash movie, and that's an innovation in linux. But are there experimetnal measurements of the impact the introduction of pulseaudio had in hardy on users? Empirically, I saw that it broke skype for everybody I knew. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Null Ack wrote: > I dont think the ordinary user cares about PulseAudio or other > internal components to their desktops. They just want audio to work. Definitely agreed. > 1. Not delivering reliable audio experiences in production releases of Ubuntu Certainly, the Ubuntu development team welcomes contributions. The most visible and impacting contributions for Ubuntu audio come in the form of source code changes. Granted, fixing things upstream is generally smiled upon more so than focusing on a particular distribution. In the case of stellar Ubuntu audio bugs, perhaps contributing more than "just testing" is way forward? > 2. A breakdown in the development process where my bug reports and > others bug reports remain unresolved, and largely unanswered, except > for bug spam messages like "I have this too" and "I think this might > be related to buy XYZ". The breakdown can be due to prioritizing. Is your bug the most impacting of all PulseAudio bugs? It's straightforward to say that my bug is truly important to me, but it's often less admissible that the bug only affects a given portion of users who are technically savvy and know of workarounds. I've presented numerous times that fixing the (Ubuntu) Linux audio mess will take a while. This example is certainly not an instant-gratification one. In my mind, the ramp-up is also due to the fact that very few people within the community truly understand the devastating cascade effect of changes to any part of the audio stack. > time with testing, but I find the audio bugs go on without resolution > from previous cycle experiences. When I try to use it in applications, > say warzone2100 I find the sound a garbled inaudible mess. Since bug > reports dont seem to be effective, I've tried to get discussion going > on if I could take the problems upstream or if they were Ubuntu > specific problems but that was also left unanswered. How can you assist in resolving the problems? Firstly, try to pinpoint where in the audio stack the breakage is occurring. Secondly, understand that your workaround is just a workaround and that it may well break numerous other hardware. Thirdly, test your workaround on as many hardware as you can. > Other bugs in other internal components are actively resolved during > the dev cycle so I think the issues are about a lack of capability in > the audio space for Ubuntu. Absolutely. One person volunteering and one person full-time makes for much pain. We all welcome your contributions (including your testing). Please take advantage of the mentoring offered (i.e., consider this an explicit offer for mentoring). -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
2009/10/7 Lukas Hejtmanek : > why there is now hard-coded pulse audio in Ubuntu/Karmic? Simply, this approach is upstream's, and it makes sense resource-wise to follow upstream. More bluntly, if you'd like to contribute a novel audio framework to Linux, particularly Ubuntu, then here's as good a place to start as any. It would be wise to be aware that many people have tried, failed, and (wrongly) lambasted others. > There seem to be many users not willing to use PA at all: > http://idyllictux.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/ubuntu-904-jaunty-keeping-the-beast-pulseaudio-at-bay/ Many users not willing to use PA is not a compelling reason to deviate from upstream. Many users not willing to use PA but willing to contribute resources to the development of a better framework is only slightly more compelling than the previous. Finally, many users willing to advance PA is the most compelling reason to fix audio in Linux. Many people miss/ignore the fact that PA has done more to fix ALSA than any other audio framework. Just because ALSA has appeared to be sufficient in the past does not mean that it is, or even will be, sufficient. And it certainly doesn't mean that ALSA is bug-free. > What are benefits for ordinary users? No, ordinary user really does not want > to send audio through the network. Ordinary user really does not want PA > process to eat about 3-5% CPU time (mainly when running on batteries). These are complaints that plague most new software. Given time, they are fixed. -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulse audio
Hi Lukas, I dont think the ordinary user cares about PulseAudio or other internal components to their desktops. They just want audio to work. The problem that I see is not so much about internal components, but is about failures in: 1. Not delivering reliable audio experiences in production releases of Ubuntu 2. A breakdown in the development process where my bug reports and others bug reports remain unresolved, and largely unanswered, except for bug spam messages like "I have this too" and "I think this might be related to buy XYZ". Right now my Audigy 2 card crackles / pops unless I disable mixers in alsamixer, where I then loose some sounds. I accept that in a dev cycle these things will happen, and thats the reason I contribute my time with testing, but I find the audio bugs go on without resolution from previous cycle experiences. When I try to use it in applications, say warzone2100 I find the sound a garbled inaudible mess. Since bug reports dont seem to be effective, I've tried to get discussion going on if I could take the problems upstream or if they were Ubuntu specific problems but that was also left unanswered. Other bugs in other internal components are actively resolved during the dev cycle so I think the issues are about a lack of capability in the audio space for Ubuntu. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
