Re: The Dell Latitude reality check
On Wednesday, February 16, 2011 08:45:01 pm Patrick Goetz wrote: > On 2/16/2011 4:07 PM, Paul Smith wrote: > > The problem is with the licensing of the _proprietary driver_. These > > drivers typically allow no-charge download directly from the vendor > > website, but the license includes terms that make REDISTRIBUTION illegal > > (without permission). > > If that's the case, then the solution is option A: provide the user with > upfront information on the issue with this driver and how to obtain the > driver and then provide some mechanism (think Windows XP here) to vector > the driver into the install using a USB stick or some such device. > > Not only will this provide a much better user experience, but it creates > consumer awareness of these driver issues. And who knows how many of > these first time installers will get irritated enough to contact the > hardware vendor and complain? in essence, a free opportunity to apply > pressure to vendors to provide open source or at least freely > distributable linux drivers. It's not the case. We have broadcom drivers in restricted on at least some ISOs. The issue is the lack of U/I to make driver install and wireless setup easy in the context of the installer. Some of this work was planned for Maverick, but didn't get done due to lack of resources. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The Dell Latitude reality check
On 2/16/2011 4:07 PM, Paul Smith wrote: The problem is with the licensing of the _proprietary driver_. These drivers typically allow no-charge download directly from the vendor website, but the license includes terms that make REDISTRIBUTION illegal (without permission). If that's the case, then the solution is option A: provide the user with upfront information on the issue with this driver and how to obtain the driver and then provide some mechanism (think Windows XP here) to vector the driver into the install using a USB stick or some such device. Not only will this provide a much better user experience, but it creates consumer awareness of these driver issues. And who knows how many of these first time installers will get irritated enough to contact the hardware vendor and complain? in essence, a free opportunity to apply pressure to vendors to provide open source or at least freely distributable linux drivers. -- Patrick Goetz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The Dell Latitude reality check
When starting a new thread, do not reply to an existing thread and delete all of the text and change the subject. It still shows up as a reply to the original thread. This means people who are ignoring the original thread will never see your message. On 02/16/2011 04:49 PM, Patrick Goetz wrote: At work we have an automated install system and use a highly customized version of 10.10. For friends and family, I use the standard i386/amd64 Ubuntu Desktop ISO to install Ubuntu on their machines. Recently, I decided to re-install an old Dell Latitude D630 with Maverick so that my 16-month-old electronics fanatic would have something to bang around on and watch Sesame Street videos. I took the opportunity to play the "what if I were a naive end user installing Ubuntu for the first time?" game. It's a laptop, so obviously I'm going to be using a wireless network connection ... I decided to try doing the install over wireless -- what else? (Mentally try and count the number of end users you know who don't even understand the concept of a wired connection.) Then queue up the Rolling Stones, because you still can't get any satisfaction, as far as I can tell, trying to install Ubuntu 10.10 on a 6-year old laptop with a Broadcom wireless chip. I understand the whole issue with proprietary drivers, but surely -- 19 years into the linux game -- there must be a solution to this problem for providing end users a painless install experience on extremely generic hardware? At the very least, the installer should scan the hardware and notify the user that they have install-critical hardware which requires proprietary drivers along with instructions on how to get the necessary drivers. A better solution would be to include the most common proprietary drivers in some kind of encrypted sandbox on the install CD and let the user choose whether or not he/she would like to use the proprietary drivers at the time of the install. I'll let the GPL legal experts figure out precisely how this could be done, but it seems to me it should be possible. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The Dell Latitude reality check
On Wed, 2011-02-16 at 15:49 -0600, Patrick Goetz wrote: > A better solution would be to include the most common proprietary > drivers in some kind of encrypted sandbox on the install CD and let > the user choose whether or not he/she would like to use the > proprietary drivers at the time of the install. I'll let the GPL > legal experts figure out precisely how this could be done, but it > seems to me it should be possible. Hi Patrick. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the broadcom licensing per se, but if it's like the other proprietary driver licensing problems we have then you're misunderstanding the situation. The problem has nothing to do with the GPL vs. LGPL vs. whatever; in fact it has nothing to do with licensing of any part of Ubuntu at all. The problem is with the licensing of the _proprietary driver_. These drivers typically allow no-charge download directly from the vendor website, but the license includes terms that make REDISTRIBUTION illegal (without permission). That means that Ubuntu _cannot give you_ the driver, unless they go to the vendor and pay $$ (presumably you're not asking that a distro you downloaded for free should pay $$ for the privilege of shipping these proprietary drivers) or work out some other arrangement. In short, there's simply nothing that Ubuntu can do about this if the vendor won't agree to allow redistribution. For things like nVidia graphics drivers or the Microsoft truetype fonts, etc. we can get away with this because they are not critical to bring the system up, so we can get the system up then there's a little trick: there's a package available that will automatically go to the vendor site and download the package directly from there (no redistribution by Ubuntu here) and install it. Of course, this trick does not work with a network driver for obvious reasons! I know this doesn't make anyone, including me, happier but at least we can focus our ire in the correct direction and not shoot the hapless, and helpless, messenger. Cheers! PS. Hopefully I've not completely misinterpreted the situation with the broadcom drivers... I probably should have gone to look at the license before writing all this. Oh well! :-p :-) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The Dell Latitude reality check
On Wednesday, February 16, 2011 04:49:40 pm Patrick Goetz wrote: > At work we have an automated install system and use a highly customized > version of 10.10. For friends and family, I use the standard i386/amd64 > Ubuntu Desktop ISO to install Ubuntu on their machines. > > Recently, I decided to re-install an old Dell Latitude D630 with > Maverick so that my 16-month-old electronics fanatic would have > something to bang around on and watch Sesame Street videos. I took the > opportunity to play the "what if I were a naive end user installing > Ubuntu for the first time?" game. It's a laptop, so obviously I'm going > to be using a wireless network connection ... I decided to try doing the > install over wireless -- what else? (Mentally try and count the number > of end users you know who don't even understand the concept of a wired > connection.) Then queue up the Rolling Stones, because you still can't > get any satisfaction, as far as I can tell, trying to install Ubuntu > 10.10 on a 6-year old laptop with a Broadcom wireless chip. > > I understand the whole issue with proprietary drivers, but surely -- 19 > years into the linux game -- there must be a solution to this problem > for providing end users a painless install experience on extremely > generic hardware? > > At the very least, the installer should scan the hardware and notify the > user that they have install-critical hardware which requires proprietary > drivers along with instructions on how to get the necessary drivers. > > A better solution would be to include the most common proprietary > drivers in some kind of encrypted sandbox on the install CD and let the > user choose whether or not he/she would like to use the proprietary > drivers at the time of the install. I'll let the GPL legal experts > figure out precisely how this could be done, but it seems to me it > should be possible. Although not trivial to discover, all the needed bits should be on the live CD. I have a Dell mini 10v (which also has broadcom) and I've done multiple Kubuntu installs with wireless. I did have to go into the live session, use jockey to install the drivers, set up wireless, and then fire up the installer, so it's not dead simple, but it does work. The problem isn't getting the ones and zeros on the ISO, it's getting the U/I in the installer right for wifi setup and installer drivers in the live session. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
