Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On 9/15/07, Milan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We can also think (and this is my opinion ;-) ) that the locate command > is only used by advanced users that now how to install slocate in two > minutes, and thus that we don't need to install it by default. Newbies > don't use locate in a terminal, but Tracker in GNOME. And we should > remember that users are likely to use new background processes with > Tracker or Beagle, that may even be installed by default. So the less > are running, the better the system will work. Replacements like find can > be used when necessary (eg for occasional remote help), though they are > less efficient. > Wouldn't it be possible to replace locate with tracker somehow? Or let locate use the tracker database? Wouter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On 15/09/2007 Wouter Stomp wrote: > Wouldn't it be possible to replace locate with tracker somehow? Or let > locate use the tracker database? I would like to add that often "dpkg -S" can replace locate. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 04:54:57PM +0200, Milan wrote: > We can also think (and this is my opinion ;-) ) that the locate > command is only used by advanced users that now how to install slocate > in two minutes, and thus that we don't need to install it by default. I agree with this. Heck, I consider myself a pretty advanced user, and the number of times I've used locate in my life can be counted on one hand (with enough fingers to spare to pick my nose and do a bit of typing). I realise the benifits of it, but I've just never gotten used to it, and it's really not very easily discoverable. If one were to find mention of it in a magazine or on IRC or whatever, it /is/ only a quick apt-get away. IMO, nuke it. IME the utility is never really used, and the daily(?) updatedb run is annoying and confusing to users who haven't asked for it. -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Server Team http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 05:49:37PM +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > On 15/09/2007 Wouter Stomp wrote: > > Wouldn't it be possible to replace locate with tracker somehow? Or let > > locate use the tracker database? > > I would like to add that often "dpkg -S" can replace locate. Ehm, locate works on any file. Not just the ones in packages. :) I use locate on a daily bases. 'Ow, where did I put that file again?' Locate is easy IMHO. Nuking it would be bad. On the desktop, it would be nice if locate would be talking to tracker. On the server, I would like to keep locate as it is. Usually, the server-users don't even notice the cronjob, but do use locate. And they are often more experienced users. Mark Schouten aka Jeeves_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:53:11 +0200 Soren Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 04:54:57PM +0200, Milan wrote: >> We can also think (and this is my opinion ;-) ) that the locate >> command is only used by advanced users that now how to install slocate >> in two minutes, and thus that we don't need to install it by default. > >I agree with this. Heck, I consider myself a pretty advanced user, and >the number of times I've used locate in my life can be counted on one >hand (with enough fingers to spare to pick my nose and do a bit of >typing). I realise the benifits of it, but I've just never gotten used >to it, and it's really not very easily discoverable. If one were to find >mention of it in a magazine or on IRC or whatever, it /is/ only a quick >apt-get away. IMO, nuke it. IME the utility is never really used, and >the daily(?) updatedb run is annoying and confusing to users who haven't >asked for it. I use locate regularly on desktops and servers. If there are locate variants that update synchronously rather than once a day, I say looking into that is the best answer. It would both eliminate the daily cron job system slowdown and the primary limitation of locate (that it doesn't know about files added since the cron job has run). For experienced administrators I think the absence of locate would be quite suprising. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
Scott Kitterman wrote the following on 16.09.2007 00:43 > I use locate regularly on desktops and servers. If there are locate > variants that update synchronously rather than once a day, I say looking > into that is the best answer. would that slowdown file operations (mv, rm, cp)? > It would both eliminate the daily cron job > system slowdown and the primary limitation of locate (that it doesn't know > about files added since the cron job has run). > > For experienced administrators I think the absence of locate would be quite > suprising. Yes i think also the absence of 'locate' would be suprising to anyone who has used any distro before. ...and at least on kubuntu that would change s.th.: $ aptitude show kubuntu-desktop | grep kio-locate keep, kfind, kghostview, khelpcenter, kicker, kio-apt, kio-locate, ^ Personaly i: $ diff updatedb.conf.orig /etc/updatedb.conf 20c20 < NICE=10 --- > NICE=14 and $ cd /etc/cron.daily/ $ sudo mv find.notslocate ../cron.weekly/ $ sudo mv slocate ../cron.weekly/ of course that´s only my personal setting (YMMV), but that it is the best compromise between 'do not have locate at all' and 'resource intensive cron each day'. And imho updatedb seems to be much smarter today then in previous releases. e.g. when you delete a file it doesn´t show up right after in locate anymore. I don´t know if that already happens, but the same way updatedb could be instructed to do a 'delta' only and leave unchanged files alone (instead of update the whole db each time). > > Scott K > -- Thilo key: 0x4A411E09 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
Milan wrote the following on 15.09.2007 16:54 > 3) when not on battery Just for the record. On feisty the cron is not started when on battery here, unless i plug the power cable in. > Milan -- Thilo key: 0x4A411E09 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
Thilo: OK, I didn't realise that. I closed this outdated Bug 27918 consequently. To Thilo and Mark and Scott: You agree that the operation of installing slocate is a piece of cake for an admin or a power user, and even if it is "surprising", it's not an issue for them. We can keep locate on the servers, because of the way they work and of the users that are likely to log on them. Thilo said: > Yes i think also the absence of 'locate' would be suprising to anyone who has > used any distro before. Not anyone, only admins, which are not likely to be afraid. I consider myself as a power user, and I never used locate, because I disabled it and I know that find can do the job when you know in which subtree to look. No standard user will ever wonder "Where did I put that file again?" for a file out of his home, and Tracker is here for it. Furthermore, there's no need to be able to find system files except for admins, which mechanically know how to install slocate. I'm not sure slocate should be connected with Tracker by default, since standard users don't want to be annoyed by system files when searching. We should never keep our admin point of view, but think of newbie Desktop users: I'm often amazed of the problems some simple features can bring about for these users, where I would have solved it in two minutes. As Vincenzo said, "often "dpkg -S" can replace locate": it is true for a significant part of the system files (though not for all of them, or locate wouldn't exist). It's normal that kio-locate is installed by default with kubuntu-desktop, since slocate is too. But we can safely remove kio-locate from kubuntu-desktop deps: $ apt-cache rdepends kio-locate kio-locate Reverse Depends: kubuntu-desktop ichthux-desktop IMHO, the minimum we can do is using ionice and moving (as you said) the cron job to cron.weekly. using rlocate could be good, but this should be investigated more, and this is still something making the system slower, for a void overall interest in most Desktop cases. According to Bugs 134692 and 13671, ionice is not working well at the time, and that would make harder solving the issue. Anyway, I'm glad the debate is raised; whatever the choice will be, it will enhance Ubuntu. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
Hi, Milan [2007-09-15 16:54 +0200]: > We can also think (and this is my opinion ;-) ) that the locate command > is only used by advanced users that now how to install slocate in two > minutes, and thus that we don't need to install it by default. Newbies > don't use locate in a terminal, but Tracker in GNOME. I fully agree. Installing *two* search tools by default is too much. We probably should not uninstall locate on upgrades, but we should not put it into new installations. One is painful enough (although they do not server the same purpose: locate only indexes file names, while tracker indexes your entire file system, which is much more heavyweight). With command-not-found, it is also very easy to see what's wrong when the 'locate' command is not available and the package needs to be installed. Can you please file a bug about this, so that we can track it? Martin -- Martin Pitthttp://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com Debian Developer http://www.debian.org -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 08:03 +0200, Martin Pitt wrote: > Milan [2007-09-15 16:54 +0200]: > > We can also think (and this is my opinion ;-) ) that the locate > command > > is only used by advanced users that now how to install slocate in > two > > minutes, and thus that we don't need to install it by default. > Newbies > > don't use locate in a terminal, but Tracker in GNOME. > > I fully agree. Installing *two* search tools by default is too much. > We probably should not uninstall locate on upgrades, but we should not > put it into new installations. One is painful enough (although they do > not server the same purpose: locate only indexes file names, while > tracker indexes your entire file system, which is much more > heavyweight). > Sounds entirely reasonable to me; -server might choose to retain it, but they don't have trackerd. Scott -- Scott James Remnant Ubuntu Development Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 08:03:49AM +0200, Martin Pitt wrote: > Milan [2007-09-15 16:54 +0200]: > > We can also think (and this is my opinion ;-) ) that the locate command > > is only used by advanced users that now how to install slocate in two > > minutes, and thus that we don't need to install it by default. Newbies > > don't use locate in a terminal, but Tracker in GNOME. > > I fully agree. Installing *two* search tools by default is too much. > We probably should not uninstall locate on upgrades, but we should not > put it into new installations. One is painful enough (although they do > not server the same purpose: locate only indexes file names, while > tracker indexes your entire file system, which is much more > heavyweight). The idea of removing locate annoys me. I've spent too much time in past jobs fighting broken commercial Unix systems that decided to break (or didn't bother to test) standard Unix tools like man and locate. If you're working with a variety of different systems then this sort of thing is a real pain. Can we not come up with a way to generate the locate database from tracker instead? -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
Le lundi 17 septembre 2007 à 08:03 +0200, Martin Pitt a écrit : > I fully agree. Installing *two* search tools by default is too much. > We probably should not uninstall locate on upgrades, but we should not > put it into new installations. That will break gnome-search-tools (the panel item to search files) which uses it at the moment. We should probably sort the issues with the different interfaces before removing it. Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On 17/09/2007 Mark Schouten wrote: > > > Can we not come up with a way to generate the locate database from > > > tracker instead? > > I prefer this too. I also think it is good to think about newbies, but > is it really necessary to ignore more advanced users just because they > know what they're looking for? I know I would be annoyed if locate was > missing on my server. I am worried about system files creating noise in tracker searches, so that one finds non-relevant information for precise queries. If a locate-tracker package existed, I would expect it to be easy uninstallable without uninstalling tracker, and queries to default to user files only, enabling system-wide queries as an option. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 12:27 +0100, Colin Watson wrote: > > I fully agree. Installing *two* search tools by default is too much. > > We probably should not uninstall locate on upgrades, but we should not > > put it into new installations. One is painful enough (although they do > > not server the same purpose: locate only indexes file names, while > > tracker indexes your entire file system, which is much more > > heavyweight). > > The idea of removing locate annoys me. I've spent too much time in past > jobs fighting broken commercial Unix systems that decided to break (or > didn't bother to test) standard Unix tools like man and locate. If > you're working with a variety of different systems then this sort of > thing is a real pain. > > Can we not come up with a way to generate the locate database from > tracker instead? I prefer this too. I also think it is good to think about newbies, but is it really necessary to ignore more advanced users just because they know what they're looking for? I know I would be annoyed if locate was missing on my server. Mark Schouten aka Jeeves_ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
> I don´t know if that already happens, but the same way updatedb could be > instructed to do a 'delta' only and leave unchanged files alone (instead of > update the whole db each time). # time /etc/cron.weekly/slocate real1m6.354s user0m0.247s sys 0m0.581s # time /etc/cron.weekly/slocate real0m0.548s user0m0.110s sys 0m0.426s The second run was right after, so i think slocate is allready doing the 'delta' thingy. >> Scott K -- Thilo key: 0x4A411E09 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: update-db cron job: solving a long-standing issue
Mark Schouten said: > I prefer this too. I also think it is good to think about newbies, but > is it really necessary to ignore more advanced users just because they > know what they're looking for? I know I would be annoyed if locate was > missing on my server. > We're not talking about servers but only Desktop versions. Of course, on servers admin should need it. Note I'm not hating locate by principle, but because it makes sometime computers hang without explanation. If we could use a more comprehensive way of indexing files, like Tracker does (ie when you do'nt work), this could be OK. Comparison with Tracker is not accurate because of this feature. rlocate seems to be resource-intensive too, because it needs a complete rescanning every 10 starts or so. IMHO, a workaround with find and dpkg is not so bad for occasional usages, and 'apt-get install slocate' is easy for anybody using the command-line. Colin Watson said: > Can we not come up with a way to generate the locate database > from tracker instead? Beagle does this for system-wide documentation, AFAIK. So this is possible, only taking care of the filenames. (But Beagle was eating CPU doing this too, though it is not necessary.) The dependencies point should be investigated more, but AFAIK gnome-utils (ie gnome-search-tool) doesn't depend on locate. Is it able to use find ? Anyway, I've opened a bug here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/slocate/+bug/140493 We should use it when we have found a common position. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
