Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 15:18 +0200, Aurélien Naldi wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Shane Fagan shanepatrickfa...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. This probably deserves some discussion. I'm not a huge fan or openoffice in general for various reasons but it seems to be the best free software available for a wide audience (LaTeX, R and other great tools are way too specialised and techie). Back to OOo draw: it seems to me that it is just impress without the effect parts and as such I don't think it uses much space. For the record I do use it (mostly to do simple drawings, export them as pdf and insert them into latex document, so I guess I'm not the main target here...). I agree with this and I would like to add a few extra points. OOo Draw is not the best standalone vector drawing tool around, that's true. On the other hand, it's one of the most accessible for casual users and it is also the best tool when you use it as part of the OOo suite, in collaboration with OOo Writer, Impress or Calc. For instance, I use OOo Draw all the time to produce diagrams that I subsequently include into OOo Writer documents (that generally end up as Word or PDF docs). OOo Draw provides the simplest workflow for that type of usage, which I encounter all the time in business environments. So when it comes to Shane's statement it just isnt any good, I'd say it depends from what point of view. If you are a graphic artist, indeed you need a more elaborate tool and you probably expect to have to download such a specialist tool. If you are a business or home user who just wants to include the occasional drawing into a word processing document, OOo Draw is exactly what you need. Also note that OOo Draw has its quirks but once you understand how things work (such as the colour palette management), it is actually quite good. I first used it under duress because it was the only tool that supported the workflow I needed and I had low expectations but I have been pleasantly surprised along the way. One last that point I want to make it that removing OOo Draw from the default install would mean that you would no longer have a vector drawing tool in the default install (apart from OOo Impress but that would be misusing it to do a job it's not really designed to do, in the same way that thousands of Windows users routinely misuse Powerpoint to include drawings in their documents because they don't have any real vector drawing package at their disposal). In conclusion, I think OOo Draw fits well in the Ubuntu application ecosystem and deserves to be installed by default because it provides casual users with an adequate drawing package that works out of the box, is reasonably intuitive to use and integrates well with the rest of the office suite. I don't mind installing extra software so removing it would be OK for me, but only if it does allow a huge space gain, which I doubt (the size of the .deb isn't a good hint here as impress is tiny and depends on draw). I agree to that too. And I think that the benefits of removing it without crippling Impress are too small compared to the downsides of doing so (namely: working out how to de-couple it from Impress and not break anything as well as the reasons detailed above). Bruno -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
We are a school. We use OpenOffice Draw all the time. I agree that it doesn't seem to have been developed recently - a great pity. But it does work and is very useful. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
I would second this. Ubuntu Linux have been penetrating educational market and schools use whole package, including OO.o Draw. Maybe it's not for good looking presentations, but it gives insight about drawing on computer. Dia is really powerful tool and I love it, but I wait for interface redesign to suggest it to anyone else, because it's clumsy and looks very dated. Cheers, Peter. 2010/5/17 Mark Ellse m...@chaseacademy.com: We are a school. We use OpenOffice Draw all the time. I agree that it doesn't seem to have been developed recently - a great pity. But it does work and is very useful. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
I too think that OpenOffice draw is not to be removed. It may be used by a few but considerable number of people, and as previously said, mostly in educational and related works. I also agree to Peteris' view that the Dia interface requires a redesign, to make it more usable to the mainstream users. On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: I would second this. Ubuntu Linux have been penetrating educational market and schools use whole package, including OO.o Draw. Maybe it's not for good looking presentations, but it gives insight about drawing on computer. Dia is really powerful tool and I love it, but I wait for interface redesign to suggest it to anyone else, because it's clumsy and looks very dated. Cheers, Peter. 2010/5/17 Mark Ellse m...@chaseacademy.com: We are a school. We use OpenOffice Draw all the time. I agree that it doesn't seem to have been developed recently - a great pity. But it does work and is very useful. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Regards, Saji.N (Opensource Enthusiast) Blog-http://saji89.wordpress.com Launchpad ID-https://launchpad.net/~sajinsj Wiki-https://wiki.ubuntu.com/saji89 Twitter-saji89 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
openoffice.org-presentation (Impress) currently depends on it. Assuming we would be keeping that on the CD it would need to be tested to see if the libraries in the draw package are needed by Impress to function, which I am pretty certain they are needed. In that case we would have to split them out into a separate package that stays on the cd for Impress, but that would make the space gained by removal very small. It could still be done if the overall effect is that we don't want users seeing the OpenOffice.org Draw icon in the menu. Also note that OpenOffice.org is a very monolithic office suite and the individual 'App' launchers really all just call the same code (soffice.bin). Each 'App' is just a particular view into that program and each 'App' depends on functionality of the other 'App's so splitting the packaging up to reduce install size has often lead to weird breakage. Its not all linkage via libraries linked at build time, there is code that is dlopened and other code that is called via a registry of sorts. So its nearly impossible to be competely certain which parts of the code are able to safely split into other packages that aren't installed by default which has led to numerous prior bugs in the various distributions that have attempted to do so. Chris On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 12:27 +0100, Shane Fagan wrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. --fagan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 18:28 -0500, Chris Cheney wrote: openoffice.org-presentation (Impress) currently depends on it. Assuming we would be keeping that on the CD it would need to be tested to see if the libraries in the draw package are needed by Impress to function, which I am pretty certain they are needed. In that case we would have to split them out into a separate package that stays on the cd for Impress, but that would make the space gained by removal very small. It could still be done if the overall effect is that we don't want users seeing the OpenOffice.org Draw icon in the menu. Also note that OpenOffice.org is a very monolithic office suite and the individual 'App' launchers really all just call the same code (soffice.bin). Each 'App' is just a particular view into that program and each 'App' depends on functionality of the other 'App's so splitting the packaging up to reduce install size has often lead to weird breakage. Its not all linkage via libraries linked at build time, there is code that is dlopened and other code that is called via a registry of sorts. So its nearly impossible to be competely certain which parts of the code are able to safely split into other packages that aren't installed by default which has led to numerous prior bugs in the various distributions that have attempted to do so. Chris Hey Chris, So in short its not worth the time to remove it really. I really dont like open office in general but I suppose till something better comes along we will have to put up with it and its quirks. I just thought there was an easier way of splitting the office apart. --fagan On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 12:27 +0100, Shane Fagan wrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. --fagan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 01:05 +0100, Shane Fagan wrote: On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 18:28 -0500, Chris Cheney wrote: openoffice.org-presentation (Impress) currently depends on it. Assuming we would be keeping that on the CD it would need to be tested to see if the libraries in the draw package are needed by Impress to function, which I am pretty certain they are needed. In that case we would have to split them out into a separate package that stays on the cd for Impress, but that would make the space gained by removal very small. It could still be done if the overall effect is that we don't want users seeing the OpenOffice.org Draw icon in the menu. Also note that OpenOffice.org is a very monolithic office suite and the individual 'App' launchers really all just call the same code (soffice.bin). Each 'App' is just a particular view into that program and each 'App' depends on functionality of the other 'App's so splitting the packaging up to reduce install size has often lead to weird breakage. Its not all linkage via libraries linked at build time, there is code that is dlopened and other code that is called via a registry of sorts. So its nearly impossible to be competely certain which parts of the code are able to safely split into other packages that aren't installed by default which has led to numerous prior bugs in the various distributions that have attempted to do so. Chris Hey Chris, So in short its not worth the time to remove it really. I really dont like open office in general but I suppose till something better comes along we will have to put up with it and its quirks. I just thought there was an easier way of splitting the office apart. --fagan It might buy us a little space but probably not too much so I would really only advise doing it if we intend the change to be just for hiding the Draw application. We might be able to actually remove it without any related crashes happening but I am pretty sure that at minimum the ability to draw items in Impress would be removed, which would probably confuse users. Chris -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Remove OO Draw from the default install
Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. --fagan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Shane Fagan shanepatrickfa...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. This probably deserves some discussion. I'm not a huge fan or openoffice in general for various reasons but it seems to be the best free software available for a wide audience (LaTeX, R and other great tools are way too specialised and techie). Back to OOo draw: it seems to me that it is just impress without the effect parts and as such I don't think it uses much space. For the record I do use it (mostly to do simple drawings, export them as pdf and insert them into latex document, so I guess I'm not the main target here...). I don't mind installing extra software so removing it would be OK for me, but only if it does allow a huge space gain, which I doubt (the size of the .deb isn't a good hint here as impress is tiny and depends on draw). Best regards. -- Aurélien Naldi -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
Of all the tools available by default it is the best at handling diagramming. Since most of openoffice is included, it shouldn't add much to the space on the CD. Unless an equivalent or better diagramming tool is included it is not a good idea to remove it from the default install. -- Chandra Sekar.S On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Shane Fagan shanepatrickfa...@ubuntu.comwrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. --fagan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
This is my first time posting to a mailing list in years, so someone let me know if I messed up. :) I've found Dia to be useful for diagrams. It's a lot like Visio (the flowchart program in MS Office). On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Chandru chandru...@gmail.com wrote: Of all the tools available by default it is the best at handling diagramming. Since most of openoffice is included, it shouldn't add much to the space on the CD. Unless an equivalent or better diagramming tool is included it is not a good idea to remove it from the default install. -- Chandra Sekar.S On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Shane Fagan shanepatrickfa...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. --fagan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 09:49 -0400, Michael Robinson wrote: This is my first time posting to a mailing list in years, so someone let me know if I messed up. :) I've found Dia to be useful for diagrams. It's a lot like Visio (the flowchart program in MS Office). I took a look at Dia in the Ubuntu Software Center. While it looks well-adapted for diagramming schematics and such, I'm not sure how it would do with flow charts and the like. Any thoughts on that? --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 09:49 -0400, Michael Robinson wrote: I took a look at Dia in the Ubuntu Software Center. While it looks well-adapted for diagramming schematics and such, I'm not sure how it would do with flow charts and the like. Any thoughts on that? --Dane I'm not knowledgeable enough about them to know what an average flowchart-using person would need, but I do know it has flowchart symbols in the dropdown box. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On 16 May 2010 18:53, David Futcher bo...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 16 May 2010 15:26, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 09:49 -0400, Michael Robinson wrote: I've found Dia to be useful for diagrams. It's a lot like Visio (the flowchart program in MS Office). I took a look at Dia in the Ubuntu Software Center. While it looks well-adapted for diagramming schematics and such, I'm not sure how it would do with flow charts and the like. Any thoughts on that? I have used Dia a bit and found it quite clunky and difficult to use. The graphics in the files aren't spectacular either. I haven't used Openoffice Draw before but seeing was we include much of OO.o anyway, I don't think it would really make too much sense to replace it with something that is (apparently, again I have not used OO Draw) not much better. Are there any other suggestions for a replacement app? Dia seems to really be the other go-to app for diagramming, but it doesn't really feel professional or sleek enough to include in the default install. I personally find Google Docs Diagrams more flexible and easier to use than OO.o Draw Dia both for a quick vector sketch flowcharts. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On 16/05/10 12:27, Shane Fagan wrote: Hey all, I forgot to mention this at the session for default app selection but can we remove Open Office Draw from the default ubuntu install? The reasons are quite obvious it just isnt any good and I dont think any of the regular users actually use it. --fagan i agree that oodraw is not much use for most people. but as others have said it probably wont save much space. the draw package seems to be 2.3MB, and install size 9.4MB. i assume that the ability of openoffice to handle documents with shapes in them is in the core. the best vector graphics app is inkscape. it is probably a bit big to add to the default package list. (though it could probably be cut down. inkscape does ship with 36MB of uncompressed tutorial svg files for example) sam -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
