Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
Flávio Etrusco spake thusly: >>> Exacty. That's precicely my point. Fedora, Mandriva and openSUSE have >>> thsi down. >> >> Which has nothing to do with rpm versus deb. It just happens that their >> repo layout/structure was much more conducive to packaging properly for >> 64-bit. >> >> > IIRC rpm allows installing multiple versions of one given package while > dpkg prohibits it, is this correct? > Correct. You can have both the 64 and 32 bit versions of a package installed (e.g. gnome-themes-extras). -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Wednesday, March 17, 2010 08:15 AM, Flávio Etrusco wrote: >>> >>> Exacty. That's precicely my point. Fedora, Mandriva and openSUSE have >>> thsi down. >> >> Which has nothing to do with rpm versus deb. It just happens that their >> repo layout/structure was much more conducive to packaging properly for >> 64-bit. >> > > IIRC rpm allows installing multiple versions of one given package > while dpkg prohibits it, is this correct? > Hmm, Scott was talking about the toolchain and not the format eh? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
>> >> Exacty. That's precicely my point. Fedora, Mandriva and openSUSE have >> thsi down. > > Which has nothing to do with rpm versus deb. It just happens that their > repo layout/structure was much more conducive to packaging properly for > 64-bit. > IIRC rpm allows installing multiple versions of one given package while dpkg prohibits it, is this correct? Best regards, Flávio -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Wednesday, March 17, 2010 03:10 AM, Scott Beamer wrote: > Christopher Chan spake thusly: > >>> I don't mean to be a "[citation needed] troll", but I've honestly never >>> heard anything suggesting this before. Would you mind explaining how >>> RPMs handle 32/64 better than DEBs? My understanding was that as long >>> as you installed ia32-libs then you shouldn't have to do anything else; >>> the software having problems in this thread is some sort of anomaly. >>> >>> >> It probably is not rpm being better than deb. But right now most 32-bit >> library packages cannot just be installed on a 64-bit installation. > > Unless of course youu're running Feodra, openSUSE or Mandriva (among > others I'm sure) Oh come on, Scott, you know this is about Ubuntu. Anyway, come June, it will be at least three years since this issue was highlighted. You got more salt for this wound? Of course, this was never a problem for Solaris/OpenSolaris too. This particular competitor cannot be ignored much longer. > > >> 32-bit packages will take over /usr/lib 'namespace' in a 64-bit >> installation when they should be stuffing themselves under /usr/lib32. >> It is as if you need to have a separate repository for 64-bit distros >> just so that their 32-bit library packages can be told to make their >> home in /usr/lib32 and not try to take over /usr/lib which really >> belongs to 64-bit libraries on a 64-bit installation. In fact, this is >> exactly how Fedora and RHEL work. They have a separate repository for >> 32-bit distros and for 64-bit distros. The 64-bit distros' repos have >> both 32-bit and 64-bit packages which are going to stick their contents >> in the places. > > It's similar for Mandriva as well. I wonder why I am not surprised. They used to advertise themselves as an 'optimized' RHL + Mandrakeware > >> >> The problem therefore is the way packaging is currently done and the >> repository architecture. That is why you have to resort to an uber >> ia32-libs package which is really not a solution at all but a cloth >> being tied around a leak of a pipe. It helps but does not completely >> solve the problem. > > Exacty. That's precicely my point. Fedora, Mandriva and openSUSE have > thsi down. Which has nothing to do with rpm versus deb. It just happens that their repo layout/structure was much more conducive to packaging properly for 64-bit. > > Debuntu is just lost. > Happens when you have been King of the Hill for so long. Turtle versus Hare anybody? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
Christopher Chan spake thusly: >> I don't mean to be a "[citation needed] troll", but I've honestly never >> heard anything suggesting this before. Would you mind explaining how >> RPMs handle 32/64 better than DEBs? My understanding was that as long >> as you installed ia32-libs then you shouldn't have to do anything else; >> the software having problems in this thread is some sort of anomaly. >> >> > It probably is not rpm being better than deb. But right now most 32-bit > library packages cannot just be installed on a 64-bit installation. Unless of course youu're running Feodra, openSUSE or Mandriva (among others I'm sure) > 32-bit packages will take over /usr/lib 'namespace' in a 64-bit > installation when they should be stuffing themselves under /usr/lib32. > It is as if you need to have a separate repository for 64-bit distros > just so that their 32-bit library packages can be told to make their > home in /usr/lib32 and not try to take over /usr/lib which really > belongs to 64-bit libraries on a 64-bit installation. In fact, this is > exactly how Fedora and RHEL work. They have a separate repository for > 32-bit distros and for 64-bit distros. The 64-bit distros' repos have > both 32-bit and 64-bit packages which are going to stick their contents > in the places. It's similar for Mandriva as well. > > The problem therefore is the way packaging is currently done and the > repository architecture. That is why you have to resort to an uber > ia32-libs package which is really not a solution at all but a cloth > being tied around a leak of a pipe. It helps but does not completely > solve the problem. Exacty. That's precicely my point. Fedora, Mandriva and openSUSE have thsi down. Debuntu is just lost. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Christopher Chan wrote: > > > I don't mean to be a "[citation needed] troll", but I've honestly never > > heard anything suggesting this before. Would you mind explaining how > > RPMs handle 32/64 better than DEBs? My understanding was that as long as > > you installed ia32-libs then you shouldn't have to do anything else; the > > software having problems in this thread is some sort of anomaly. > > > > It probably is not rpm being better than deb. But right now most 32-bit > library packages cannot just be installed on a 64-bit installation. > 32-bit packages will take over /usr/lib 'namespace' in a 64-bit > installation when they should be stuffing themselves under /usr/lib32. > It is as if you need to have a separate repository for 64-bit distros > just so that their 32-bit library packages can be told to make their > home in /usr/lib32 and not try to take over /usr/lib which really > belongs to 64-bit libraries on a 64-bit installation. In fact, this is > exactly how Fedora and RHEL work. They have a separate repository for > 32-bit distros and for 64-bit distros. The 64-bit distros' repos have > both 32-bit and 64-bit packages which are going to stick their contents > in the places. > > The problem therefore is the way packaging is currently done and the > repository architecture. That is why you have to resort to an uber > ia32-libs package which is really not a solution at all but a cloth > being tied around a leak of a pipe. It helps but does not completely > solve the problem. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
> I don't mean to be a "[citation needed] troll", but I've honestly never > heard anything suggesting this before. Would you mind explaining how > RPMs handle 32/64 better than DEBs? My understanding was that as long as > you installed ia32-libs then you shouldn't have to do anything else; the > software having problems in this thread is some sort of anomaly. > It probably is not rpm being better than deb. But right now most 32-bit library packages cannot just be installed on a 64-bit installation. 32-bit packages will take over /usr/lib 'namespace' in a 64-bit installation when they should be stuffing themselves under /usr/lib32. It is as if you need to have a separate repository for 64-bit distros just so that their 32-bit library packages can be told to make their home in /usr/lib32 and not try to take over /usr/lib which really belongs to 64-bit libraries on a 64-bit installation. In fact, this is exactly how Fedora and RHEL work. They have a separate repository for 32-bit distros and for 64-bit distros. The 64-bit distros' repos have both 32-bit and 64-bit packages which are going to stick their contents in the places. The problem therefore is the way packaging is currently done and the repository architecture. That is why you have to resort to an uber ia32-libs package which is really not a solution at all but a cloth being tied around a leak of a pipe. It helps but does not completely solve the problem. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
Evan spake thusly: > I don't mean to be a "[citation needed] troll", but I've honestly never > heard anything suggesting this before. Would you mind explaining how > RPMs handle 32/64 better than DEBs? My understanding was that as long as > you installed ia32-libs then you shouldn't have to do anything else; the > software having problems in this thread is some sort of anomaly. They just "work". For example, in Fedora... if you install a 32-bit RPM via YUM (see APT in Debuntu) as you would with a 64-bit RPM, YUM will pull all the edependancies in and install them as well. Debian's ia32libs doesn't install ALL needed 32-bit libs for a number of packages if installed in the past. My best suggetion to you would be to spend some time with the competition and see for yourself. :) P.S. PLEASE don't post in HTML to the lists. Thanks. Scott -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Scott Beamer wrote: > Thomas Tempelmann spake thusly: > > >... I've created a 32 bit application that uses Gtk 2, which > > launches fine on the 32 Bit Ubuntu 9.10 default installation. > > > > But when I launch the same app on the 64 bit Ubuntu version, the > > following things happen.. > > [...] > > The problem is that Debian (and therfore Ubuntu) is still in the 20th > century when it comes to easily installing and running 32-bit software > beside 64-bit software. > > Outiside of sticking with OS X (or Windows for that matter) your other > alterntiave is to go with the more advanced RPM-based distributions where > you can routinely install 32-bit packages on a 64-bit OS (examples of > such operating systems include Fedora, openSUSE and Mandriva). > > *Someday* Debian (and therefore Ubuntu) will catch up > I don't mean to be a "[citation needed] troll", but I've honestly never heard anything suggesting this before. Would you mind explaining how RPMs handle 32/64 better than DEBs? My understanding was that as long as you installed ia32-libs then you shouldn't have to do anything else; the software having problems in this thread is some sort of anomaly. Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
Thomas Tempelmann spake thusly: >... I've created a 32 bit application that uses Gtk 2, which > launches fine on the 32 Bit Ubuntu 9.10 default installation. > > But when I launch the same app on the 64 bit Ubuntu version, the > following things happen.. [...] The problem is that Debian (and therfore Ubuntu) is still in the 20th century when it comes to easily installing and running 32-bit software beside 64-bit software. Outiside of sticking with OS X (or Windows for that matter) your other alterntiave is to go with the more advanced RPM-based distributions where you can routinely install 32-bit packages on a 64-bit OS (examples of such operating systems include Fedora, openSUSE and Mandriva). *Someday* Debian (and therefore Ubuntu) will catch up -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote: > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 00:26, Dmitrijs Ledkovs > wrote: > > > I don't think an error is needed. Generally on Ubuntu you launch > > .desktop files of applications installed using Software Centre / > > Synaptic / apt. All of which are of correct architecture. > > I disagree. I think it's important to get your error reporting right, > because error reporting is mostly for the cases where things are NOT > normal. Like here, in my particular case. A general attitude of "no > error handling needed, as it's not happening usually" only leads to > more and more slips, and hard-to-maintain software eventually. > I agree. If a case should never happen, we still need to handle the what-if-it-does. It can't be considered a high priority item, but it should be dealt with. Maybe a papercut bug? Anyway. My biggest problem now is that all I get in the Terminal is > "seg fault" and no other hints telling me where the problem might be > so that I could fix it, maybe. > > Any suggestions how I could debug this Assuming that ldd isn't missing anything (if that is even possible?) then I don't have any suggestions beyond printf, but I do hope you get it working. Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 00:26, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: > I don't think an error is needed. Generally on Ubuntu you launch > .desktop files of applications installed using Software Centre / > Synaptic / apt. All of which are of correct architecture. I disagree. I think it's important to get your error reporting right, because error reporting is mostly for the cases where things are NOT normal. Like here, in my particular case. A general attitude of "no error handling needed, as it's not happening usually" only leads to more and more slips, and hard-to-maintain software eventually. > How come you can't build it on AMD64? Sounds like a bug in that > software. And do use ldd as suggested in previous mail to find all of > the missing 32 bit libs needed for your binary. > > Is it not free software? Correct guess. It's a commercial cross-platform dev system that allows me to write GUI apps for all platforms with easy (much easier than with Qt). As my app is freeware, you can try it out for yourself to see the problem, here: http://apps.tempel.org/iBored/ The app is a disk editor, which can do quite a few things that you won't find anywhere else, probably. But the user base is so small that I do not want to put too much effort into making it work for everyone. E.g, building a fancy installer for Windows is just overkill, IMO. Still, if I can figure out how to make it work on Ubuntu 64, with a few extra steps, I'd be happy, and the few users I have as well. Anyway. My biggest problem now is that all I get in the Terminal is "seg fault" and no other hints telling me where the problem might be so that I could fix it, maybe. Any suggestions how I could debug this? -- Thomas Tempelmann, http://www.tempel.org/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On 14 March 2010 22:40, Thomas Tempelmann wrote: > Hi there, > this is my first post. I've signed up here because I have a particular > problem I like to discuss with the developers. > > I'm a long-time software developer, although I'm not a big fan of Unix and > derivates. I am mostly developing for OS X, and used to do for classic Mac > OS, so I'm more of a autmatic tools user than a user of command line tools. > > > Anyway. I've created a 32 bit application that uses Gtk 2, which launches > fine on the 32 Bit Ubuntu 9.10 default installation. > > But when I launch the same app on the 64 bit Ubuntu version, the following > things happen: > There is quite a huge difference between Mac-O binaries and linux elf binaries and how the libraries are linked. On mac most binaries are compiled to be "fat" meaning that 32 & 64 bit versions are compiled and merged into final binary. Similar thing is done with libraries as well. That's why when you compile on mac you generally can run binary on both 32 & 64 bit macs. That's why there are apps like trim the fat which can save about ~6-9 GB of space. On linux we are not doing fat binaries =) You can use pbuilder / qemu or launchpad PPA to compile two binaries: 32 & 64 bit. > 1. > When launching by double clicking it within the Explorer (sorry, haven't > figured out the name of the UI desktop app yet), _nothing_ happens. Not even > a error message popping up. This is, IMO, something that should be fixed, > i.e. that the user needs to get some kind of response telling him that his > attempt to launch the app was actually understood. > On Ubuntu default file manager is Nautilus. I don't think an error is needed. Generally on Ubuntu you launch .desktop files of applications installed using Software Centre / Synaptic / apt. All of which are of correct architecture. > 2. > When launching it from the Terminal, the only message I get is "bash: > ./appname: No such file or directory". > > Now, this is a bad error message as well. The file exists and is executable. > So, the error message should be something like "required lib .. not found" > or "this executable has no code for this architecture" or whatever. But not > a message saying "there is no file". > Dunno did you run this command from the folder the binary is located? I'll try some 64bit arch binaries in terminal to see if I get that error message. Cause I thought the error was something else. > So, is there a chance that this gets fixed/improved without me actually > having to do that (I won't, I've got other problems, thank you :) ? > If so, where should I address this issue, or does this post already make it > into the bug DB even, magically? > > No there is no magic which scans mailing lists and files bug in launchpad =) This type of request might actually be marked invalid. It is more idea or wish of how to make ubuntu better and is more suited for Brainstrom. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ > BTW, I'm still stuck solving this problem, i.e. getting the right libs > installed so that this app eventually launches (no, I can not build a 64 bit > version of this app, just believe me), and so I installed, as a first step, > the "ia32-libs". This, in fact, made the misleading error msg in Terminal go > away, replaced by a similarly useless "segmentation fault" without any > further info even in which context this happened, and again with no error > msg when double clicking the app in Explorer. Any suggestions how I could > get at least some more information so that I can figure out which other 32 > bit libs are missing? > > How come you can't build it on AMD64? Sounds like a bug in that software. And do use ldd as suggested in previous mail to find all of the missing 32 bit libs needed for your binary. Is it not free software? With regards, Dima. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 23:52, Stéphane Graber wrote: > ldd > > Will at least give you the list of shared libraries that your binary is > using an if not present, tell you so. Yes, it appears to find them all, mostly in /usr/lib32 and /lib32, which is expected, I assume. Only exceptions not in lib32: linux-gate.so.1 => (0xf770a000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xf770b000) I wonder what these mean. Does the empty space after "=>" mean that the lib is not found? "man ldd" doesn't explain its output very well. > I'd expect a 32-bit only program that's to run on 64bit to be > distributed in a static form to avoid issues like missing shared > libraries. Not in this case. I have no control over this as I'm not in control of the way it's built, unfortunately (no, it's not a simple C program). -- Thomas Tempelmann, http://www.tempel.org/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 23:40 +0100, Thomas Tempelmann wrote: > Hi there, > this is my first post. I've signed up here because I have a particular > problem I like to discuss with the developers. > > I'm a long-time software developer, although I'm not a big fan of Unix and > derivates. I am mostly developing for OS X, and used to do for classic Mac > OS, so I'm more of a autmatic tools user than a user of command line tools. > > > Anyway. I've created a 32 bit application that uses Gtk 2, which launches > fine on the 32 Bit Ubuntu 9.10 default installation. > > But when I launch the same app on the 64 bit Ubuntu version, the following > things happen: > > 1. > When launching by double clicking it within the Explorer (sorry, haven't > figured out the name of the UI desktop app yet), _nothing_ happens. Not even > a error message popping up. This is, IMO, something that should be fixed, > i.e. that the user needs to get some kind of response telling him that his > attempt to launch the app was actually understood. > > 2. > When launching it from the Terminal, the only message I get is "bash: > ./appname: No such file or directory". > > Now, this is a bad error message as well. The file exists and is executable. > So, the error message should be something like "required lib .. not found" > or "this executable has no code for this architecture" or whatever. But not > a message saying "there is no file". > > So, is there a chance that this gets fixed/improved without me actually > having to do that (I won't, I've got other problems, thank you :) ? > If so, where should I address this issue, or does this post already make it > into the bug DB even, magically? > > > BTW, I'm still stuck solving this problem, i.e. getting the right libs > installed so that this app eventually launches (no, I can not build a 64 bit > version of this app, just believe me), and so I installed, as a first step, > the "ia32-libs". This, in fact, made the misleading error msg in Terminal go > away, replaced by a similarly useless "segmentation fault" without any > further info even in which context this happened, and again with no error > msg when double clicking the app in Explorer. Any suggestions how I could > get at least some more information so that I can figure out which other 32 > bit libs are missing? Hi, ldd Will at least give you the list of shared libraries that your binary is using an if not present, tell you so. I'd expect a 32-bit only program that's to run on 64bit to be distributed in a static form to avoid issues like missing shared libraries. -- Stéphane Graber Ubuntu developer http://www.ubuntu.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Trouble with 32 bit Gtk app on 64 bit system - no or misleading error msgs
Hi there, this is my first post. I've signed up here because I have a particular problem I like to discuss with the developers. I'm a long-time software developer, although I'm not a big fan of Unix and derivates. I am mostly developing for OS X, and used to do for classic Mac OS, so I'm more of a autmatic tools user than a user of command line tools. Anyway. I've created a 32 bit application that uses Gtk 2, which launches fine on the 32 Bit Ubuntu 9.10 default installation. But when I launch the same app on the 64 bit Ubuntu version, the following things happen: 1. When launching by double clicking it within the Explorer (sorry, haven't figured out the name of the UI desktop app yet), _nothing_ happens. Not even a error message popping up. This is, IMO, something that should be fixed, i.e. that the user needs to get some kind of response telling him that his attempt to launch the app was actually understood. 2. When launching it from the Terminal, the only message I get is "bash: ./appname: No such file or directory". Now, this is a bad error message as well. The file exists and is executable. So, the error message should be something like "required lib .. not found" or "this executable has no code for this architecture" or whatever. But not a message saying "there is no file". So, is there a chance that this gets fixed/improved without me actually having to do that (I won't, I've got other problems, thank you :) ? If so, where should I address this issue, or does this post already make it into the bug DB even, magically? BTW, I'm still stuck solving this problem, i.e. getting the right libs installed so that this app eventually launches (no, I can not build a 64 bit version of this app, just believe me), and so I installed, as a first step, the "ia32-libs". This, in fact, made the misleading error msg in Terminal go away, replaced by a similarly useless "segmentation fault" without any further info even in which context this happened, and again with no error msg when double clicking the app in Explorer. Any suggestions how I could get at least some more information so that I can figure out which other 32 bit libs are missing? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
