Window Controls on the Right Side
Would any one be willing to discuss a technical solution that brings value to the user regarding customization of this feature. If yes, could someone sponsor an issue/bug if we open one against Unity? I think it is better than having nonproductive discussions to justify a specific design. But if nobody would be interested in sponsoring that bug I think it is moot to open the issue. Regards Raphael Calvo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Le mercredi 20 mai 2015 à 11:18 -0400, Rodney Dawes a écrit : [...] There is no sponsorship of bugs in Launchpad. I think it's vitally important here to make sure things are clear: yes, there is such as thing as sponsorship. Once someone has a fix ready that is both appropriate and well-executed (as reviewed by some person, upstream or a domain expert), then developers can upload these fixes for a contributor who has no upload access. It seems to me like this is what Raphael was pre-emptively asking for. However, it's *way* too early for this... If there is already a bug about the window controls, then simply make sure that ubuntu-ux is an affected project as well, and feel free to discuss details on implementation and design in there. However, please keep such discussion objective and technical, rather than filling it with the subjective commentary as is common with these sorts of polarizing religious topics. I agree. This is a contentious issue that polarizes people, even though, in the end, the actual location of the controls doesn't matter. We've changed them once already and there was a lot of criticism. It seems like now there'd be just as much, since people have gotten accustomed to it, like it this way, etc.; just like there are others who are just coming to Ubuntu and feel their placement is wrong. If you want change to happen, the best way is to provide concrete technical proof (studies?) that it's a better location -- anything else boils down to personal opinion. If what you're after is providing a setting so that users can customize their systems, then you probably should bring this up on the appropriate technical list (unity-design or unity-dev I guess?), so that domain experts can say that it has already been considered, and why it wasn't done yet. Finally, if I can share a bit: when I concentrate on a window for an extended period of time, it's maximized. This means I will have the menu in the title bar, which is integrated in the top panel. Having the window controls on the left in this case is fine since it would otherwise be unbalanced to have even more icons on the right (plus these icons have a vastly different purpose. Some are menu-like to effect an action on the current window, the others provide global information about my system. White space generally separates the two, unless the window title is very long). The window controls also push the title right just enough that it's almost lined up with the actual window, rather than being above the Launcher. -- Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@gmail.com Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com 4096R/DC95CA5A 36E2 CF22 B077 FEFE 725C 80D3 C7DA A946 DC95 CA5A signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On Wed, 2015-05-20 at 14:25 -0400, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre wrote: Le mercredi 20 mai 2015 à 11:18 -0400, Rodney Dawes a écrit : [...] There is no sponsorship of bugs in Launchpad. I think it's vitally important here to make sure things are clear: yes, there is such as thing as sponsorship. Once someone has a fix ready that is both appropriate and well-executed (as reviewed by some person, upstream or a domain expert), then developers can upload these fixes for a contributor who has no upload access. It seems to me like this is what Raphael was pre-emptively asking for. However, it's *way* too early for this... Developer sponsoring of uploads is completely unrelated to the concept of sponsoring bugs though. Depending on the time within the development cycle, I don't necessarily need a bug to have an upload to the archive sponsored by a core dev. And having someone else say yeah, file a bug isn't really helpful either. It doesn't guarantee there will be a fix. If you see a bug, file a bug. Simple. :) If there is already a bug about the window controls, then simply make sure that ubuntu-ux is an affected project as well, and feel free to discuss details on implementation and design in there. However, please keep such discussion objective and technical, rather than filling it with the subjective commentary as is common with these sorts of polarizing religious topics. I agree. This is a contentious issue that polarizes people, even though, in the end, the actual location of the controls doesn't matter. We've changed them once already and there was a lot of criticism. It seems like now there'd be just as much, since people have gotten accustomed to it, like it this way, etc.; just like there are others who are just coming to Ubuntu and feel their placement is wrong. If you want change to happen, the best way is to provide concrete technical proof (studies?) that it's a better location -- anything else boils down to personal opinion. You're going to have a hard time finding concrete proof that one location is going to be markedly better than the other. What you'll find is that both seem sufficient in user testing. Which is why, as you said, in the end, it doesn't really matter where they are. It is just personal preference. If what you're after is providing a setting so that users can customize their systems, then you probably should bring this up on the appropriate technical list (unity-design or unity-dev I guess?), so that domain experts can say that it has already been considered, and why it wasn't done yet. A setting for this exact thing already exists in the system. And I'm pretty sure that Unity used to respect it, but no longer does (compiz without unity does still, AFAIK). I don't really know how long it's not been respecting the setting, though. Finally, if I can share a bit: when I concentrate on a window for an extended period of time, it's maximized. This means I will have the menu in the title bar, which is integrated in the top panel. Having the window controls on the left in this case is fine since it would otherwise be unbalanced to have even more icons on the right (plus these icons have a vastly different purpose. Some are menu-like to effect an action on the current window, the others provide global information about my system. White space generally separates the two, unless the window title is very long). The window controls also push the title right just enough that it's almost lined up with the actual window, rather than being above the Launcher. Personally, I almost never even bother with the window controls. I use keybindings for everything. The close button is the only one I sometimes use, because not all windows respect standard keybindings for closure (beyond Alt-F4 which is part of the WM, and a bit of a pain to press on many keyboards). I pretty much never restore things, and maximize/restore are easy enough to do from keyboard. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Please stop starting new threads with the same topic. Discussion of a design to resolve this issue, needs to happen with the Design team, as well as engineers who would be implementing the feature. There is no sponsorship of bugs in Launchpad. If there is already a bug about the window controls, then simply make sure that ubuntu-ux is an affected project as well, and feel free to discuss details on implementation and design in there. However, please keep such discussion objective and technical, rather than filling it with the subjective commentary as is common with these sorts of polarizing religious topics. I'm sure there is already at least one bug filed on the matter, even if it's already been marked as Opinion or Won't Fix. On Wed, 2015-05-20 at 09:26 -0300, Raphael Calvo wrote: Would any one be willing to discuss a technical solution that brings value to the user regarding customization of this feature. If yes, could someone sponsor an issue/bug if we open one against Unity? I think it is better than having nonproductive discussions to justify a specific design. But if nobody would be interested in sponsoring that bug I think it is moot to open the issue. Regards Raphael Calvo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Window Controls on the Right Side
As an engineer I can definitelly say that saddens me to see such level of argumentation towards a client/user. It does not matter if the client\user knows the science behind the subject. Imagine if I would have to explain to a business jet client that he would have to wait 30 minutes to the aircraft to perform all of its automated safety checks before taking off. It does not matter if the engineer is right about all the safety tests that need to be done. Probably the engineer is right, nevertheless, the 30 minute waiting is absurd. The problem is not the test itself but the time consumed to do it. After all when you pay for a business jet you expect to spend less time. When you have a car of 20kUsd that takes less than 3 seconds to perform this kind of tests you already have a performance standard in your mind. The same comparison applies to this menu discussion. There is an industry standard that is embedded on the user mind and every change implicates in a learning curve, even worse if the user has to work in one OS environment and at home the user uses another environment with a different UI behavior. Thinking as an engineer focused on maximizing the happiness all possible clients I would invest time to bring customization options that are safe to be tweaked and very accessible instead of deep hidden in the system. For this particular subject IMHO there is no correct answer. The correct place for the close, minimize and maximize controls are where the user wants it to be and not where someone think its best. IDEA: Could we have a drop down menu accessible by right-clicking on the Close-Minimize-Maximize button where we could choose where in the title bar we would wanted it to be placed? And once this setting is applied it becomes valid for every window already opened and for future windows? Best Regards Raphael das Neves Calvo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 05/18/2015 08:24 PM, Raphael Calvo wrote: As an engineer I can definitelly say that saddens me to see such level of argumentation towards a client/user. As an engineer, I can say you're vulnerable to the engineer's problem of coming up with some complicated way of doing things. Thinking as an engineer focused on maximizing the happiness all possible clients I would invest time to bring customization options that are safe to be tweaked and very accessible instead of deep hidden in the system. ...and this is the other problem: instead of coming up with the worst answer by overcomplication (how do I handle a file being picked up early during upload by a daemon watching a directory? Well we could write a kernel module to hide the file from that daemon), you come up with the answer catering to the engineer audience (How do we design the best plastic wrench? Well, you could sell a plastic epoxy allowing the customer to design their own wrench...). Congratulations, you managed to beat the primary engineer's problem and instead fall to a more common-mode thinking problem. Customization is its own engineering decision; it comes with presets, defaults, and a configuration setting to make new outcomes if the presets are not satisfactory. Before you can provide customization, you must provide *the* definitive default. For this particular subject IMHO there is no correct answer. Then you haven't actually asked a question. The correct place for the close, minimize and maximize controls are where the user wants it to be and not where someone think its best. That's a project management approach: If the customer has asked for the controls to be on the right, then they belong on the right. We're arguing over the engineering approach: where is the optimal place for this crap? IDEA: Could we have a drop down menu accessible by right-clicking on the Close-Minimize-Maximize button where we could choose where in the title bar we would wanted it to be placed? And once this setting is applied it becomes valid for every window already opened and for future windows? This opens a brand new battle about how much is too much. Context-based interfaces are great; but context-based interfaces with hundreds of context options are overwhelming. Now we must ask if this is the highest-priority action for the context, or if we should prune it in favor of other things to put on that context interface. Best Regards Raphael das Neves Calvo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote on 14/05/15 04:06: On 05/01/2015 10:52 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... There have been dozens of desktop computer OS manufacturers less successful than Apple -- for example, Acorn, Be, Commodore, Google, IBM, Sun, and every company that has ever released an OS based on Gnome or KDE. Broadly marketed is assuming the question -- the For decades? Standing side-by-side with Dell in Best Buy and CompUSA? With their own stores? All over the news, pervasive throughout culture? You are assuming exactly the same question again. That they were less successful is precisely why they weren't broadly marketed for decades. And that has pretty much nothing to do with window controls. ... Back in 10.04, Ubuntu tried moving the controls to the left. This met with huge resistance, largely in the form of complaining, whining, and people putting the controls back where they belong. That is similarly assuming the question. The only reason you think the controls ... belong on the right is that around 1993, someone at I have given the ergonomic definition. Which makes several unfounded assumptions. Most notably, that more users of Ubuntu -- which was originally focused on notebooks, and has always been preinstalled most often on notebooks -- use mice (where rotating to the right may indeed be easier) rather than touchpads, trackballs, and pointing sticks combined (where extending a bent pointing finger to the left is probably easier). And that window state changes are more frequent and/or hurried than other functions that could occupy the same area. In both Windows and OS X, putting the controls all on one side (a) increases the risk that you'll close a window when you mean to minimize or maximize it, The argument is about putting all the controls on the left instead of the right. In that context, you risk closing the window when you operate the locally-integrated menu. You are still assuming that all the controls belong on one side at all. I was demonstrating that that assumption, too, is unfounded. (b) makes centered titles look imbalanced in the title bar, No different if all controls are on the left; and, generally, the least-important thing anyone could say on the topic. Again, you are wrongly assuming that all controls are on one side or the other. and (c) causes ugliness when a window doesn't have maximize and/or close functions, because you end up with buttons that are either permanently insensitive (as in Windows and OS X) or inconsistently-placed (as in Ubuntu). This is not solved by moving buttons around. Yes it is, if there is one subtle extra rule: an unminimizable window can't be maximizable either. Then if you have minimize and close at opposite ends, and maximize next to minimize, all the possible combinations of those three controls avoid all three problems I described. ... Apart from the Fitts's-Law-derived conclusions that the easiest pixels to hit are (a) the one you're at right now and (b) the four corners, I'm not aware of any research on this. Do you know of any? Hold your right arm out straight in front of you, with the fingers extended in line with the forearm. Now, tilt your wrist thirty degrees to the right. That's easy, yes? It's a wide range of motion. Again, you're assuming that most Ubuntu users use mice. ... A year later, in 11.04, Ubuntu released the Global Menu. Three days before 15.04, Ubuntu reversed a decision to disable the Global Menu by default, after preening themselves with talk about the new Locally Integrated Menus--i.e. pre-11.04, non-Apple menus. As far as I know, there was no decision to disable global menus by default in 15.04, it was just a mistake. They accidentally set bug #1412297 as Fix Released as well. As is clear from the bug report, it was supposed to be Kylin-only. Locally Integrated Menus are a red herring: they don't solve the primary problem of menus being invisible by default. Long ago, I went on some long rant about multiple mouse clicks required to access a visible window's menus when using global menus. Nobody believed me. Maybe it was something to do with it being a rant. You suggest the intellectually disjoint argument that every window's menu should be visible by default, but that putting the menu in the window is the wrong solution. This is a generous assumption on my part: all other things you could possibly suggest would be ridiculous, and indicate a deluded mind afflicted with some form of mental illness. Then this is the single most important thing for you to learn from this exchange: If it seems that someone is either intellectually disjoint or mentally ill, your first hypothesis should be that you misunderstood them. Because if you suggest either of the other two -- or even worse, both -- and you're wrong, you'll look like a churl.
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 01:14:45PM +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Ah yes, the days when much design was done by engineers and managers who shrugged and communicated in their settings dialogs, We don't know how to design software. Why don't you have a go? And when, as a result, people were often -- justifiably! -- afraid of breaking their computer by accidentally changing settings that shouldn't have existed in the first place. People are willing to pay for the privilege of not making decisions like those. And this is precisely the reason I have trouble with some of the 'modern' UI's. I *am* an engineer and I'm perfectly willing to let 'granny go suck eggs'. I prefer all of my global config to be in ascii files in /etc that I edit with emacs or else with a tool that simply does what I would have done in emacs but in the UI. The beauty of Unix is that it is (was?) available to be learned. You start at the bottom; everything is in a man page and everything is editable. No corner of the system is hidden or obfuscated. It is one of the things we laugh about with Microsoft products: they are impenetrable even to the expert; most fixes are 'black magic' which even the experts can't explain because they are just incantations discovered at great effort or passed on within high priced courses. Unix frees you. It allows anyone to understand and *control* their world. Some people want systems for the lazy minded. I prefer systems that expose their innards and teach. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Il 01/05/2015 16:52, Matthew Paul Thomas ha scritto: With LIMs (you know, *normal* menus), you just click File on the window; with Global Menus, you have to click the window, then go back and click File at the top. That isn't correct either. Locally Integrated Menus are not normal menus; menus in the title bar are unlike Windows, OS X, or any other system or app I've seen, except the eccentric iTunes for Windows. Rigth. Regardless, with Locally Integrated Menus you have to focus the window before you can open a menu -- just as you need to do with the global menu bar. No, this changed starting from 15.04, now unfocused windows have LIMs as well and you can activate the menu (and the window) by just clicking on it, despite its focus state (there's also an option to avoid this, by the way). The reason for moving the controls to the left was made clear by Mark at the time: Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely, and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options there. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110 Those innovative options were, of course, windicators and netbooks. http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333 Right... This was not easy to do with old decorations, while now it would be quite trivial to get this done. All that would be needed is an API to use on the app side, but this is not anymore a priority with unity8 rework. Back on the main topic, I've already explained [1] the reason why we didn't include in new decorations the ability to change the layout. And there are both UX and technical reasons (although the last ones are just some optimization). As always, patches welcome, by the way. [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-tweak-tool/+bug/1309942/comments/8 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iF4EAREIAAYFAlVUhWgACgkQy6VOJFdF1OoPHgEAjbG1xTtJVxjQuW07Jzui55vJ Xl+/2VHuDUhDxPngdv4A/jxg646vlsHy5rDvuQIFaOZ7A3ZurDF9+DCceOF4Fcil =+YwR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 05/01/2015 10:52 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: John Moser wrote on 30/04/15 03:23: ... There have been dozens of desktop computer OS manufacturers less successful than Apple -- for example, Acorn, Be, Commodore, Google, IBM, Sun, and every company that has ever released an OS based on Gnome or KDE. Broadly marketed is assuming the question -- the For decades? Standing side-by-side with Dell in Best Buy and CompUSA? With their own stores? All over the news, pervasive throughout culture? Sure, there are plenty of commercially-introduced operating systems--such as Ubuntu. Do you see Ubuntu stores popping up everywhere? Do you see ads for Ubuntu on TV, imploring users to switch? Is Ubuntu broadly marketing toward the consumer market, or just passively sitting aside as an available option? Back in 10.04, Ubuntu tried moving the controls to the left. This met with huge resistance, largely in the form of complaining, whining, and people putting the controls back where they belong. That is similarly assuming the question. The only reason you think the controls ... belong on the right is that around 1993, someone at I have given the ergonomic definition. In both Windows and OS X, putting the controls all on one side (a) increases the risk that you'll close a window when you mean to minimize or maximize it, The argument is about putting all the controls on the left instead of the right. In that context, you risk closing the window when you operate the locally-integrated menu. (b) makes centered titles look imbalanced in the title bar, No different if all controls are on the left; and, generally, the least-important thing anyone could say on the topic. and (c) causes ugliness when a window doesn't have maximize and/or close functions, because you end up with buttons that are either permanently insensitive (as in Windows and OS X) or inconsistently-placed (as in Ubuntu). This is not solved by moving buttons around. These problems could be avoided by splitting them across left and right, as Canonical's then-head of design suggested: Personally, I would have the max and min on the left and close on the right. https://web.archive.org/web/20100315143609/http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 That seems like the ultimate bad design, but I'll dodge on that one entirely because it only strikes my senses as scattering related window controls around. I can make up an argument for it on-the-spot, and it'll sound impressive and well-reasoned; but I'd rather not commit to anything I haven't considered substantially. ... I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Those of us with civil rights in Elbonia will find I'm completely correct; lefties will find confusion, followed by the realization that they're using the wrong hand. Apart from the Fitts's-Law-derived conclusions that the easiest pixels to hit are (a) the one you're at right now and (b) the four corners, I'm not aware of any research on this. Do you know of any? Hold your right arm out straight in front of you, with the fingers extended in line with the forearm. Now, tilt your wrist thirty degrees to the right. That's easy, yes? It's a wide range of motion. Now, instead, tilt your wrist thirty degrees to the left. YOU CANNOT DO IT. The inward tilting motion is awkward. It strains the wrist, and range of motion is minimal. Further, the mouse is in such a position that pushing forward in the neutral manner or extending the fingers causes it to move roughly 10 degrees (extending the fingers may move the mouse 0 to 5 degrees) to the right--to the outside of the body. Generally, when moving up-right, the crude movement sends the mouse pointer off at a 45 degree angle; up-left crude movement is 10-15 degrees. Large, wide movements of the arm are used to make the mouse move inward toward the body--left for right-handed people. You *can* get around this if you own a cordless mouse: advanced juggling tricks such as lifting your hand off the mouse and rotating your arm to shuffle the mouse around on the desk with your pinky can more easily move it to the left. Some people as well reposition their computer mice; if you watch, you'll see they never lift and reposition the mouse to go right, but will occasionally lift and reposition the mouse out to the right so as to use the range of motion of the arm (from the shoulder) to go left. This is basic human physiology applied to ergonomics: movement X is easy for a human, task A is easy if it requires movement X. The four corners thing is just that you can crash the mouse out infinitely up and right and end up at a corner (same for the other 3). You'll notice the implication that hitting a pixel *close* to where you are now is harder than hitting a corner pixel. A year later, in
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On ĵaŭ, 2015-04-30 at 00:04 -0400, John Moser wrote: Caveat: the alt-tab behavior is functionally useless; I believe it may be an abandoned feature, because it never gets fixed and behaves in entirely unjustifiable ways. The designers have thought about it. I don't necessarily agree with them, but if you didn't realise how it works before, then it's Alt+Tab to switch between applications, and Alt+` (the button above the tab) to switch between windows of an application. The two controls can be combined by holding down Alt, so you can switch to a specific window of another application in one step by utilising both buttons. I find myself using the wrong shortcut too frequently, but navigation is possible. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Moser wrote on 30/04/15 03:23: ... First and foremost, the biggest red flag you'll ever find in the UI design sphere is Apple blahblahblah. This statement comes out of people who have no clue what they're talking about, so make an appeal to authority--typically the authority of the least-successful product produced by the least-successful desktop computer OS manufacturer. Folks seem to forget that Apple's OSX is the only broadly-marketed, consumer-targeted alternative to Microsoft Windows, and is completely trounced by them; There have been dozens of desktop computer OS manufacturers less successful than Apple -- for example, Acorn, Be, Commodore, Google, IBM, Sun, and every company that has ever released an OS based on Gnome or KDE. Broadly marketed is assuming the question -- the reason many of the systems are no longer marketed is that they were unsuccessful. Success or failure of an OS is not so much a red flag as a red herring: generally, Windows has demonstrated that good design is not necessary for success, while OS X has demonstrated that it is not sufficient. Back in 10.04, Ubuntu tried moving the controls to the left. This met with huge resistance, largely in the form of complaining, whining, and people putting the controls back where they belong. That is similarly assuming the question. The only reason you think the controls ... belong on the right is that around 1993, someone at Microsoft decided to add a close button alongside the minimize and maximize buttons on the right of windows in Windows. This change showed up in Encarta 95 on Windows 3 (flouting the standard of where the controls belonged on Windows, rabble rabble!), and then in Windows 95 and later. From then until OS X in 2001, Windows was pretty much alone in having all its visible window controls on one side of the title bar. For example, Mac OS 7~9, AmigaOS, BeOS, and twm all split the controls across left and right. In both Windows and OS X, putting the controls all on one side (a) increases the risk that you'll close a window when you mean to minimize or maximize it, (b) makes centered titles look imbalanced in the title bar, and (c) causes ugliness when a window doesn't have maximize and/or close functions, because you end up with buttons that are either permanently insensitive (as in Windows and OS X) or inconsistently-placed (as in Ubuntu). These problems could be avoided by splitting them across left and right, as Canonical's then-head of design suggested: Personally, I would have the max and min on the left and close on the right. https://web.archive.org/web/20100315143609/http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 If we *were* going to put them all on one side, the right would be a bit easier, for Windows refugees to migrate to, than the left would. That's a valid reason that is obscured by talk of where they belong. ... I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Those of us with civil rights in Elbonia will find I'm completely correct; lefties will find confusion, followed by the realization that they're using the wrong hand. Apart from the Fitts's-Law-derived conclusions that the easiest pixels to hit are (a) the one you're at right now and (b) the four corners, I'm not aware of any research on this. Do you know of any? A year later, in 11.04, Ubuntu released the Global Menu. Three days before 15.04, Ubuntu reversed a decision to disable the Global Menu by default, after preening themselves with talk about the new Locally Integrated Menus--i.e. pre-11.04, non-Apple menus. As far as I know, there was no decision to disable global menus by default in 15.04, it was just a mistake. Locally Integrated Menus are a red herring: they don't solve the primary problem of menus being invisible by default. Last month's SRU introducing the com.canonical.Unity always-show-menus setting is a first step toward solving it, but long-term, having a setting for something like that would demonstrate indecision. ... First, if the window is maximized, the menu is obviously in the same place on the screen. If not, you have multiple windows, and it takes *two* *mouse* *clicks* to click a menu. That isn't correct. It takes 1 + n clicks, where n = the probability that the menu item you want is for a window different from the focused one. So, probably about 1.1 clicks on average, varying depending on the kind of work you're doing. With LIMs (you know, *normal* menus), you just click File on the window; with Global Menus, you have to click the window, then go back and click File at the top. That isn't correct either. Locally Integrated Menus are not normal menus; menus in the title bar are unlike Windows, OS X, or any other system or app I've seen, except the eccentric
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Am 30.04.2015 um 02:32 schrieb Clint Byrum: Excerpts from Martinx - ジェームズ's message of 2015-04-28 21:40:11 -0700: On 28 April 2015 at 20:56, Mark Faine mark.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right of the screen consequence free for a single click. This is to encourage the user to dig into the indicators and to help developers inform users easily in a uniform way. Hate on it all you want, this is safer for new users, and it's almost a perfect copy of one of the things that is actually good about OS X. I've grown accustomed now, and I prefer it this way. :) I also liked the decision that the window buttons moved to the left side by default. Before that time, I prefered closing windows by double-clicking on their window-menu-button (which was always on the left side), like you did it in Windows 3.11. And thus moving the window buttons became handy for me regarding this habit. Btw., I have never used a Mac. My two cents ;-) Kind regards, Jan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Yeah, I guess I deserved that :) Using unity tweak tool to do this has not worked for a long time, it's never worked for me. I've read that the location has been hard-coded in such a way as to make it virtually impossible to change this without a major code rewrite: http://askubuntu.com/a/451330 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-tweak-tool/+bug/1310056 http://www.webupd8.org/2014/01/unity-7-to-get-new-window-decorations.html I think this is something that needs to be addressed. It isn't up to the developers to tell the users how things should look. It works the other way around. At the very least, give me the option, I don't even care if I have to install some packages or dconf configurations, or even hand edit xml files (yuk), so long as it remains possible. Not to say that any of that should be necessary. On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:40 PM Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 April 2015 at 20:56, Mark Faine mark.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. Best! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
Excerpts from Martinx - ジェームズ's message of 2015-04-28 21:40:11 -0700: On 28 April 2015 at 20:56, Mark Faine mark.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right of the screen consequence free for a single click. This is to encourage the user to dig into the indicators and to help developers inform users easily in a uniform way. Hate on it all you want, this is safer for new users, and it's almost a perfect copy of one of the things that is actually good about OS X. I've grown accustomed now, and I prefer it this way. :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 10:41 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 10:38 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 10:23 PM, John Moser wrote: I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Right, so by that logic the close button should be as far away from that as possible, right? I mean, you definitely wouldn't want to hit it by mistake. :) This comment is competing with my Elbonia comment for most hilarious in this thread, and I think I may be losing. You see my point, of course: reaching up-left is slow and awkward; bicycling 5 miles is faster and less exhausting than walking 2 (it takes the same amount of energy to walk 1 mile as it does to bicycle 7 in the same amount of time). The menus would belong in the top-right if they weren't variable-width and, generally, wide and complex. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) But seriously, arguing about which side the window decorations should be on is like arguing which flavour of cake tastes best. It took me two or three days to get used to having them on the opposite side the few times in my life where I switched from windows to mac to Gnome and then to Unity, but after a few days I got used to them. Here, have a slice of my chocolate cake. Chocolate is scientifically proven to be the best cake ever. :) Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 08:54 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 08:32 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right Actually, no, you know what? I'm going to set decorum aside and pull a Linus here, on everyone involved. Not you, Clynt; *everyone*. First and foremost, the biggest red flag you'll ever find in the UI design sphere is Apple blahblahblah. This statement comes out of people who have no clue what they're talking about, so make an appeal to authority--typically the authority of the least-successful product produced by the least-successful desktop computer OS manufacturer. Folks seem to forget that Apple's OSX is the only broadly-marketed, consumer-targeted alternative to Microsoft Windows, and is completely trounced by them; while also conveniently forgetting that Android devices control *four* *times* the handheld device market of iOS (caveat: that's by browser detection; by sales, people have purchased 7 times as many Android devices as iOS devices, and manufacturers have shipped 8 times as many Android devices as iOS devices). Claiming that Apple does something a certain way should be an argument made *against* doing something--it would still be a bad argument, but it would at least make sense. Apple makes a shitload of money being iTunes, Inc. So let's set aside the pointless Apple fanboy arguments and do some history. Back in 10.04, Ubuntu tried moving the controls to the left. This met with huge resistance, largely in the form of complaining, whining, and people putting the controls back where they belong. Now, I can't recall who said what, but I can at least recall what I said, so we'll go with that. What did I say? Oh yeah. I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Those of us with civil rights in Elbonia will find I'm completely correct; lefties will find confusion, followed by the realization that they're using the wrong hand. A year later, in 11.04, Ubuntu released the Global Menu. Three days before 15.04, Ubuntu reversed a decision to disable the Global Menu by default, after preening themselves with talk about the new Locally Integrated Menus--i.e. pre-11.04, non-Apple menus. Again, more bitching. People hated on the Global Menu. A lot. It's sort of a big deal: loads of contention among users, news articles asking if Shuttleworth is insane or just stupid, everything from strategic trepidation to outright hostility. The Ubuntu developers actually had an explanation for this one. They said it puts the menus in a consistent location, so the user won't get lost trying to find File Edit blah blah blah Tools. Translation: Users are retards who have been beaten with Cricket bats until they've sustained sufficient brain damage to soil themselves uncontrollably, so we've put the menus somewhere we can train an Amoeba to find consistently. My take on the situation? Two simple things: First, if the window is maximized, the menu is obviously in the same place on the screen. If not, you have multiple windows, and it takes *two* *mouse* *clicks* to click a menu. With LIMs (you know, *normal* menus), you just click File on the window; with Global Menus, you have to click the window, then go back and click File at the top. These days, even standard Windows 7 is so screwed up that I'm not sure what window I've got selected; right now, on Ubuntu, the only difference between this window and the Thunderbird main window is this window has black title bar text and controls, while every other window on the screen has medium-dark gray text and controls. Back in the day, the title bar would be an entirely different color. You can be pretty sure the user will have to stop and verify he's looking at the right menus before he can click with confidence. Second, people don't work the way Canonical has suggested. A screen is meaningless. Say it with me: The screen is meaningless. People don't know where they are on the screen. They know they're working on a specific window; LIMs are part of that window, and share a consistent spatial relationship with that window. Everything in the window shares a specific spatial relationship with that window--mostly with the top and left of that window. The window may resize or move around, but most things--including the menus and controls--share a specific spatial relationship with the top and left of that window. Putting the menu in the same fixed position in the workspace--the screen--means you're moving it around. You have a component of the window which no longer has a fixed spatial relationship with the window, and must be located when used. The controls in the top-right have the slightest disadvantage of being affected by the width of the window; this is made up for by the fact that the user is typically
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 10:38 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 10:23 PM, John Moser wrote: I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Right, so by that logic the close button should be as far away from that as possible, right? I mean, you definitely wouldn't want to hit it by mistake. :) This comment is competing with my Elbonia comment for most hilarious in this thread, and I think I may be losing. You see my point, of course: reaching up-left is slow and awkward; bicycling 5 miles is faster and less exhausting than walking 2 (it takes the same amount of energy to walk 1 mile as it does to bicycle 7 in the same amount of time). The menus would belong in the top-right if they weren't variable-width and, generally, wide and complex. Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 10:44 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 10:36 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. Close button was directly at the top-left here when i upgraded to 15.04. On my 39 inch monitor, I don't believe the entire title bar is an inch high. :p An inch high? What application are you running that has the menu right underneath the window decorations? Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 08:32 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: The entire reason for them being on the left is to make the top-right of the screen consequence free for a single click. This is to encourage the user to dig into the indicators and to help developers inform users easily in a uniform way. You encourage people to the indicators by highlighting them some way, not moving something they're actually looking for away from them. You're not going to draw attention to something by moving things actually relevant to the user away from it. Hate on it all you want, this is safer for new users, and it's almost a perfect copy of one of the things that is actually good about OS X. Doesn't seem safer. If you're talking about being able to click up at the indicators without accidentally hitting the close button... the top row of pixels is active for the indicators; you're just bluntly slamming the mouse into the top of the screen to use indicators, not precision-noodling around a bunch of small controls trying to poke things. You know. |Activities ||[X][_][0] ||File Edit Blah Blah Blah Tools || The treacherous Close/File area. I've grown accustomed now, and I prefer it this way. :) Well yeah, you've been trained now, and have those reflexes, and would then have to untrain it now. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 10:23 PM, John Moser wrote: I said most people are right-handed, and that the easiest way to tilt your wrist or move your arm was out and away. The top-right of your screen is the easiest area of the screen to access--go ahead, try it. Right, so by that logic the close button should be as far away from that as possible, right? I mean, you definitely wouldn't want to hit it by mistake. :) Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. I think you need a better mouse. Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 10:36 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. Close button was directly at the top-left here when i upgraded to 15.04. On my 39 inch monitor, I don't believe the entire title bar is an inch high. :p I think you need a better mouse. Marc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 07:55 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 10:44 PM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 10:36 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote: On 2015-04-29 12:42 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File Seriously? On my 13 screen, File is about an inch away from the close button. Close button was directly at the top-left here when i upgraded to 15.04. On my 39 inch monitor, I don't believe the entire title bar is an inch high. :p An inch high? What application are you running that has the menu right underneath the window decorations? Anything with the old style, in window menus. That being said I prefer the newer style with the menu in the window title bar, but each to their own. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
All of which is why I am migrating to Mint, step by step. Even on Ubuntu I use Mate and make the changes to make the OS and GUI do my bidding. A OS is a slave. It does what its master tells it to do, whether that be to put buttons on the right or the left. Different people have different tastes. They should command their slave to do things the way they demand, and if it does not, they should get a new silicon servant. When computers get uppity and start deciding how you are going to do things, it is time to put them in their place. This is not intended to be a bias against eventual AI entities who are not the amoeba level intellects of the software we currently deal with. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Window Controls on the Right Side
I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 28 April 2015 at 20:56, Mark Faine mark.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand if Ubuntu wants to be backward and contrary and default the window controls to the wrong side for new installations, but why must they force the issue. From what I understand it is very difficult, to the point of being impractical, to move them to the right side, due to decisions that were made specifically to prevent it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Please give me the ability to put my window controls on the correct (right) side. Thanks I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. Best! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Window Controls on the Right Side
On 04/29/2015 12:40 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I am very happy with window controls on the correct (left) side. :-P It is close to the App's Menus which is why the window closes 40% of the time I try to hit File (I don't need to travel the entire screen to hit those buttons) and Unity left panel. If I'm not wrong, with Ubuntu Teak Tools, you can do that, with Ubuntu Gnome, you can do that, for sure. requires dconf-editor now Best! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Feature Request: Move window controls to the right side
Please allow the location of the user controls to be user selectable. I don't care if they default to the left (though the right would be better) but, at the very least please allow them to be moved to either side. This was possible in previous versions of Unity but apparently no longer. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
