Re: your thoughts wanted on bzr team UDD focus

[Robert Collins]

On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 04:16 +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:
> 
> These three all require additional "magic" versioned files, which are
> a
> pain when roundtripping. 
> 
> Also, supporting any of these alternatives now means we'll have to
> bump
> the bzr-git mapping when nested trees land and we do want to create
> proper nested trees. 

Well, we'll probably have to do that anyway, unless no changes are made
to the nested trees design before it becomes stable.

-Rob


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Re: your thoughts wanted on bzr team UDD focus

[Jelmer Vernooij]

On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 13:41 +1100, Robert Collins wrote: 
> On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 02:39 +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> > 
> > On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 12:19 +1100, Martin Pool wrote: 
> > > I'd like to get a sanity check from UDD people on what the Bazaar team
> > > is going to do for our 2.1 release, which will have a feature freeze
> > > in February and go into Karmic.
> > > 
> > > From the previous threads, it seems that the main large things we need
> > > to do are:
> > > 
> > >  * get more code imports working -- investigation of failure causes is
> > > continuing
> > >  * support imports of git submodules or svn externals -- this is not 
> > > moving yet
> > As for bzr-git/bzr-svn support for git submodules / svn externals:
> > 
> > fwiw git submodules can (as of UDS when I discussed this with Dustin and
> > Vincent) now be imported with newer versions of bzr-git, and are
> > converted to by-reference nested trees. This will of course only work if
> > the target repository supports storing nested trees (e.g. the
> > experimental development-subtree format). 
> 
> This makes me extremely nervous. The last time a plugin did something
> the core didn't /support/, it took us 4 and a half years or so to fix
> it, because we were constrained by having lots of data around, and we
> didn't get to do the fix that would have been best (and been maybe 10%
> smaller on the converted data).
Last time this happened we required a particular format for all  
 bzr-svn/bzr-git imports, without a particularly good reason. Now it's
 just for repositories that require submodules, there's no proper way  
 to support those with a non-experimental format. bzr-git doesn't
  create development-subtree branches by itself, not even if it sees a
 submodule.

I understand that development-subtree is experimental - this implies
 imports with bzr-git of submodules are experimental too. I don't see
 how bzr-git creating revisions with by-reference nested trees is any
 worse than users doing so manually using "bzr join --reference". Users
 have to manually initialise a development-subtree branch before in either 
case. 

> _please please please please_ contribute to bzr's support first, and
> only enable this in bzr-git when there is a supported format that does
> nested trees.
While I would love to see proper by-reference nested trees support in
bzr core, I'm very hesitant to contribute given the history of nested
trees in bzr. 

If the current development-subtree format (while clearly marked as
experimental) is bad even for experimentation, can we please remove it? 

> Until then, I suggest outputting one of:
>  - a bzr-builder recipe
>  - scm-proj
>  - config-manager
These three all require additional "magic" versioned files, which are a
pain when roundtripping. 

Also, supporting any of these alternatives now means we'll have to bump
the bzr-git mapping when nested trees land and we do want to create
proper nested trees.

Cheers,

Jelmer


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Re: your thoughts wanted on bzr team UDD focus

[Robert Collins]

On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 02:39 +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 12:19 +1100, Martin Pool wrote: 
> > I'd like to get a sanity check from UDD people on what the Bazaar team
> > is going to do for our 2.1 release, which will have a feature freeze
> > in February and go into Karmic.
> > 
> > From the previous threads, it seems that the main large things we need
> > to do are:
> > 
> >  * get more code imports working -- investigation of failure causes is
> > continuing
> >  * support imports of git submodules or svn externals -- this is not moving 
> > yet
> As for bzr-git/bzr-svn support for git submodules / svn externals:
> 
> fwiw git submodules can (as of UDS when I discussed this with Dustin and
> Vincent) now be imported with newer versions of bzr-git, and are
> converted to by-reference nested trees. This will of course only work if
> the target repository supports storing nested trees (e.g. the
> experimental development-subtree format). 

This makes me extremely nervous. The last time a plugin did something
the core didn't /support/, it took us 4 and a half years or so to fix
it, because we were constrained by having lots of data around, and we
didn't get to do the fix that would have been best (and been maybe 10%
smaller on the converted data).

_please please please please_ contribute to bzr's support first, and
only enable this in bzr-git when there is a supported format that does
nested trees.

Until then, I suggest outputting one of:
 - a bzr-builder recipe
 - scm-proj
 - config-manager
 - by-value nested tree.

-Rob


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Re: your thoughts wanted on bzr team UDD focus

[Jelmer Vernooij]

Hi Martin,

On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 12:19 +1100, Martin Pool wrote: 
> I'd like to get a sanity check from UDD people on what the Bazaar team
> is going to do for our 2.1 release, which will have a feature freeze
> in February and go into Karmic.
> 
> From the previous threads, it seems that the main large things we need
> to do are:
> 
>  * get more code imports working -- investigation of failure causes is
> continuing
>  * support imports of git submodules or svn externals -- this is not moving 
> yet
As for bzr-git/bzr-svn support for git submodules / svn externals:

fwiw git submodules can (as of UDS when I discussed this with Dustin and
Vincent) now be imported with newer versions of bzr-git, and are
converted to by-reference nested trees. This will of course only work if
the target repository supports storing nested trees (e.g. the
experimental development-subtree format). 

This should at least allow imports of repositories with nested trees to
work. Of course - since bzr only stores nested trees at the moment and
doesn't have working tree support for them - this doesn't really allow
submodules to be used yet as they were intended. Launchpad will also
need some fixes to be able to import repositories with submodules, as
its current default target format (2a) doesn't support subtrees. 

svn externals are ignored at the moment, and we will need a bzr-svn
mapping bump (generating different revision ids) to start supporting
them. Some initial work on this is available here:
http://people.samba.org/bzr/jelmer/bzr-svn/nestedtrees/

Cheers,

Jelmer


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Re: your thoughts wanted on bzr team UDD focus

[Tim Penhey]

On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:19:13 Martin Pool wrote:
> I'd like to get a sanity check from UDD people on what the Bazaar team
> is going to do for our 2.1 release, which will have a feature freeze
> in February and go into Karmic.
> 
> From the previous threads, it seems that the main large things we need
> to do are:
> 
>  * get more code imports working -- investigation of failure causes is
> continuing
>  * support imports of git submodules or svn externals -- this is not moving
>  yet

This makes me very happy.

Tim

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your thoughts wanted on bzr team UDD focus

[Martin Pool]

I'd like to get a sanity check from UDD people on what the Bazaar team
is going to do for our 2.1 release, which will have a feature freeze
in February and go into Karmic.

>From the previous threads, it seems that the main large things we need
to do are:

 * get more code imports working -- investigation of failure causes is
continuing
 * support imports of git submodules or svn externals -- this is not moving yet

At the moment we're mostly doing consolidation work after 2.0:
continuing to pull on performance threads (2.1 should be substantially
faster and use less memory), fixing bugs, improving documentation, and
making community contribution more fun.  This is very satisfying and
going well, but we may need to shift focus to more specifically
strategic things.

I'd like that bug work to be guided by UDD requirements.  So feel free
to either ask here, or put the 'affects-udd' tag onto our bugs, or ask
on irc or the Bazaar list.  I'd say that tag should count as about a
+3 to hit, or in other words an upgrade of one Importance level.

My sense is that getting submodule/external imports going by February
is not out of the question but might be a stretch to do it safely.
(More data welcome.)  And it seems also that for the initial rollout
of UDD it would be ok to do it on trees that don't use
submodules/externals, but it will of course block widespread use.

So, UDDers:

 * are there other things that should be on this map, either bugs or features?
 * how do you feel about the relative importance of those features vs
bugs or performance?
 * how crucial is it to get submodule/external support in 2.1?

Thanks
-- 
Martin 

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