Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Sorry Scott, but we're going to have to disagree on that point. Fundamentally ubuntu development is based around launchpad, and you have to get involved in that if you want to deal with bugs, upgrades and the like. To then require people to learn an entirely different system for new packages is frankly a waste of community effort. With REVU out of action, this is the time to seize the moment and merge the new package system with the sync and update regimes already in place If the MOTU community is genuinely interested in encouraging new software into the universe (and from my own experience it doesn't feel like that at all), then you need to reduce the learning curve and harmonise the processes. Not increase it on ideological grounds. Now I'm sure that MOTUs don't believe that they are alienating developers. But your current processes will leave people with that feeling. What you have to remember is that developers are busy people too. I certainly don't have time to sit on IRC shouting forlornly into the ether until somebody deems it appropriate to answer just to get a package reviewed. Much more sensible that I subscribe the 'motu-reviewers' group to a [needs packaging] bug and come back later once I get an email telling me that something has happened. That way I can get something else done in the mean time. I would ask that you all consider the load that you place upon people want to contribute to Ubuntu. QA is a good thing, but when it becomes alienating then it is failing its purpose. NeilW -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Hi Neil, Neil Wilson wrote: Sorry Scott, but we're going to have to disagree on that point. Fundamentally ubuntu development is based around launchpad, and you have to get involved in that if you want to deal with bugs, upgrades and the like. Nope. Launchpad is just a tool like bugzilla, opensuse buildservice or subversion/cvs or whatever tool you use. To then require people to learn an entirely different system for new packages is frankly a waste of community effort. With REVU out of action, this is the time to seize the moment and merge the new package system with the sync and update regimes already in place Ubuntu is not a distro which is standalone. Ubuntu builds upon Debian, and Debian doesn't use Launchpad or any Canonical tool which is used as tool most of the time for Ubuntu. If the MOTU community is genuinely interested in encouraging new software into the universe (and from my own experience it doesn't feel like that at all), then you need to reduce the learning curve and harmonise the processes. Not increase it on ideological grounds. If you let MOTU wannabes learn just the Launchpad way, you will have stupid, dumb drones. They can't do anything just using Launchpad, and with BTS or Bugzilla they will just die like a vampire in the sunlight. Development means not only packaging but as well coding and bugfixing. Using tools like diff and patch, knowning what the other development utilities are doing. You have to know your tools, and you have to know the other tools, other distros are using. Now I'm sure that MOTUs don't believe that they are alienating developers. But your current processes will leave people with that feeling. What you have to remember is that developers are busy people too. I certainly don't have time to sit on IRC shouting forlornly into the ether until somebody deems it appropriate to answer just to get a package reviewed. Much more sensible that I subscribe the 'motu-reviewers' group to a [needs packaging] bug and come back later once I get an email telling me that something has happened. That way I can get something else done in the mean time. No, people with knowledge will agree with me, that just using one tool from one commercial sponsor or distributor will not help the developers and package maintainers at all. As I said, with your approach you create stupid drones. I would ask that you all consider the load that you place upon people want to contribute to Ubuntu. QA is a good thing, but when it becomes alienating then it is failing its purpose. Why? Do you think the human brain is so small to not use other tools then Launchpad? Linux is about choice and Ubuntu, too. You should start trying to understand what Launchpad is for whom, and what is Launchpad not for the others. Regards, \sh signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Previous MOTU meeting.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey folks Was just wondering about the minutes for the previous meeting, and when the next meeting is scheduled, as there has been no word on the ML. Thanks. - -- Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGxuvRjVefwtBjIM4RAk9PAJ4tYDo5JX6lTQNe9LHSf7x4nZW7qQCgpaM1 S3oQ5G72MQ1dg92Ic8bmBHs= =VaYO -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:06:09 -0400, Barry deFreese wrote: [...] Additionally, before you start demanding that I do things in the way that's easy for you, remember that I'm a volunteer. On a related note, I really don't think we need to make it easier to submit packages. I have to agree with Scott here for the most part. You have to remember that community development works both ways. It's mighty easy to throw a package up on REVU/LP/wherever and walk away. It's another thing to get it packaged properly, make sure it meets Debian/Ubuntu standards wrt to licensing, packaging, dependencies, etc. As a contributor, though, it's also hard to get your packaging done properly when the review feedback doesn't come until months after the upload. Maybe some of the people who gave up would have become good long- term maintainers if they'd had a good first experience. I know I'm guilty of this too. As an upstream author, I don't have time to look at many of the patches people send me, and I never hear from them again. Back when I was a student (and had more time!) I replied to everything and built up a good developer community. There are over 7,000 bugs filed against packages in Universe and Multiverse. Add to that hundreds of packages that possibly 1 individual thinks should be added to the archive. And this is all to be supported by a few dozen volunteer MOTUs? Many of whom have full-time RL jobs/school/wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends/children, etc. Tell me how we are supposed to manage that? You can't. But, these people still need a way to distribute their programs. If someone makes a package that's only useful to 10 Ubuntu users in the whole world, then the only recommended way to get it to them is to get it into Universe. Yet, the full review process doesn't make sense for such a small audience. How about suggesting that these packagers first create a Zero Install package (http://0install.net) and maintain that on their own web-site for a while? Then MOTU could *invite* authors of desirable packages to get them into Universe, rather than having people submit everything and the reviewers being too polite to turn them away? This is similar to the development model used in the distributed version control systems: let people publish whatever they want on their own site and the 'official' maintainer pulls the bits they want. If you don't have to be accepted by MOTU to distribute packages with security, updates, dependency handling, etc then there's less pressure to get every trivial package in Universe in the first place. -- Dr Thomas Leonard http://rox.sourceforge.net GPG: 9242 9807 C985 3C07 44A6 8B9A AE07 8280 59A5 3CC1 -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
