Re: Change in the Mentoring program
On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:05:04 Brandon Holtsclaw wrote: People might be more inclined to volunteer if there was more visibility into the progress this project is making? I 100% agree, just dont have the numbers to make a solution to this. The file where the reception records the mentoring activities is here: https://code.launchpad.net/~motu-mentoring-reception Is public and readable by everyone. Cesare -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
On Sunday 25 November 2007 16:12:28 Scott Kitterman wrote: That doesn't really answer my questions: Right now, the purpose of mentoring is not solely that of preparing MOTUs, one of the very reasons to make the distinction clear in dividing it into two phases. If anything, most of mentoring is actually done as a one-on-one tutoring for totally new contributors; if we were to split the program in two stages right now, my own estimation is that not many contributors will fall in stage 2. We have one proposal from Emmet, do we have any other proposals? Do you think we should restrict mentoring to stage 1 only? Do you think we should steer the program to be a pure one-on-one preparatory program for MOTUship? Do you think we should dispense from mentoring altogether? And ultimately, what do you think we should do to increase the number of new contributors that actively participate and integrate within the Ubuntu community? Cesare -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Fwd: Re: Change in the Mentoring program
Thanks for sharing your opinion. This thread is of interest to #ubuntu-motu-mentors too, please cc any reply to that list as well. Cesare -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: Change in the Mentoring program Date: Sunday 25 November 2007 From: Ming Hua [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com I feel you are misunderstanding Scott. On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 06:48:00PM +0100, Cesare Tirabassi wrote: On Sunday 25 November 2007 16:12:28 Scott Kitterman wrote: That doesn't really answer my questions: [...] We have one proposal from Emmet, do we have any other proposals? Do you think we should restrict mentoring to stage 1 only? Do you think we should steer the program to be a pure one-on-one preparatory program for MOTUship? If you can't answer Scott's questions, my response to these questions, as an MOTU who never participated mentoring, is: Why should I care? Do you think we should dispense from mentoring altogether? Maybe, if after the mentoring program has been running for a few months, we still don't have a clear idea about what the program has achieved. Ming 2007.11.25 -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Fwd: Re: Change in the Mentoring program
.. Original Message ... On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:14:05 +0100 Cesare Tirabassi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for sharing your opinion. This thread is of interest to #ubuntu-motu-mentors too, please cc any reply to that list as well. I disagree. Anyone in the mentors program should be subscribed to the motu list. Those of us not on the mentors list will just get moderated anyway. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:48:00 +0100 Cesare Tirabassi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 25 November 2007 16:12:28 Scott Kitterman wrote: That doesn't really answer my questions: Right now, the purpose of mentoring is not solely that of preparing MOTUs, one of the very reasons to make the distinction clear in dividing it into two phases. If anything, most of mentoring is actually done as a one-on-one tutoring for totally new contributors; if we were to split the program in two stages right now, my own estimation is that not many contributors will fall in stage 2. Getting more contributors is good too. I'm trying to understand what value the program is bringing to Universe. It's very hard for those of us not involved to tell. So far I've asked for some numbers and haven't gotten them. I'm starting to wonder if the numbers are dismal enough no one wants to share them. We have one proposal from Emmet, do we have any other proposals? Do you think we should restrict mentoring to stage 1 only? Do you think we should steer the program to be a pure one-on-one preparatory program for MOTUship? Do you think we should dispense from mentoring altogether? It's no secret that I haven't liked the idea from the start. I see a number of negatives to the program: 1. Promotes separation from the community. With dedicated mentoring there is less incentive to get involved with the community and become a part of our shared culture. This community is one of the great parts of Universe specifically and Ubuntu in general. To deal with this, I've suggested that mentors not upload/advocate their mentees changes/packages so that mentees are required to make connection with other MOTUs. This also exposes them to a broader technnical/policy perspective while they are learning. 2. People who don't have a mentor are discouraged. I am still being asked if it's OK to learn/participate if one doesn't have a mentor. In this respect the mere existence of the program discourages people from getting involved. 3. One on one mentoring means that the same questions have to be answered time and time again because bystanders can't benefit from private answers. Additionally, private answers do not benefit from community QA. Ultimately, there may be sufficient recruiting/training benefit to offset these disadvantages, which is why I'm asking for some numbers. Personally, I'd expect that people who need a mentor and can't just ask questions via IRC or e-mail probably don't have the iniative to be the kind of productive MOTUs we need. And ultimately, what do you think we should do to increase the number of new contributors that actively participate and integrate within the Ubuntu community? I think that I don't know if the mentors program is helping or hurting right now. I think encouraging people to start with bug fixing instead of new packages would be good. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Fwd: Re: Change in the Mentoring program
On Sunday 25 November 2007 19:36, Cesare Tirabassi wrote: On Monday 26 November 2007 00:34:03 Scott Kitterman wrote: .. Original Message ... On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:14:05 +0100 Cesare Tirabassi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for sharing your opinion. This thread is of interest to #ubuntu-motu-mentors too, please cc any reply to that list as well. I disagree. Anyone in the mentors program should be subscribed to the motu list. Those of us not on the mentors list will just get moderated anyway. The subject of the thread is mentoring, and it is as much of interests to MOTU, mentors and contributors. The effort to reply to both mailing lists to which the thread was addressed and give everybody interested a chance to participate do not seem excessive to me. So you don't think people in the mentoring program should be subscribed to the MOTU mailing list? Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
On Sunday 25 November 2007 19:52, Cesare Tirabassi wrote: Let me repeat once again, you haven't got any numbers simply because there are no such numbers. We have kept no record beside those which I pointed out to you. On Nov 26, 2007 10:56 AM, Scott Kitterman wrote: How many people that were involved in the program as mentees later became MOTUs? Are there any other than you? As I feel it's important to track metrics, as otherwise it's really not clear how any process changes affect things, I've reviewed the available information towards drafting some numbers, with the following results: Queue size of pending mentoring requests: unavailable from BZR People receiving mentoring that have become MOTU: 3 People who have become MOTU since the Mentor program began: 18 (including the 3 above) Number of current mentors: 17 Number of current mentees: 29 Date mentoring program started: 22 May 2007 Just as a note, in all cases where a Mentoree became MOTU there were previous uploads to the archive and previous communication with the community (prior to joining the mentoring program): I do not see any cases where a completely new person has requested Mentoring and become a MOTU. Further, these numbers are from a quick review of the revision notes in BZR and glancing at the current revision: it may be (and likely is) that I have made mistakes, and there may be benefit to someone working through revision by revision to produce more accurate numbers (including such useful things as Number of people requesting mentoring who have dropped from the program). -- Emmet -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
Hi, Am Donnerstag 15 November 2007 19:45:23 schrieb Scott Kitterman: [..] I would additionally like to propose that assigned mentors not sponsor changes by their mentees. This will better integrate mentees with the MOTU community, reduce montor worloak, and expose hopefuls to more diverse inputs from more MOTUs. [..] Hm... I like the goal, but I don't see particular harm being done if a mentor sponsors a mentee, as long as the goal is actually still met. Hence I'd rather make a rule like this: The mentor should try to integrate the mentee within the MOTU community and familiarize him/her with the MOTU workflows and procedures. As an example, the mentor should teach the mentee the regular sponsoring workflow by exercise. (more examples). Of course this rule is pretty obvious, and is what mentors are doing nowadays anyway, right? Cheers, Stefan. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
I like the idea of separating mentoring on 2 stages, and i find nice the idea of not sponsoring the mentees patches. I know the MOTUs will know when they are comfortable with the upload, but in the other hand it's common to think he has made exactly what i tell him to do, so it must be fine or to test and fine a little problem, tell the mentee to change it, and then assume he has made it without making another mistake, so, if my vote count (i don't know how it works for non-MOTUs) i will say to apply the 3 changes. On Nov 15, 2007 10:54 PM, Brandon Holtsclaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would additionally like to propose that assigned mentors not sponsor changes by their mentees. This will better integrate mentees with the MOTU community, reduce montor worloak, and expose hopefuls to more diverse inputs from more MOTUs. [..] Hm... I like the goal, but I don't see particular harm being done if a mentor sponsors a mentee, as long as the goal is actually still met. +1 I live the idea of Stage 1 and Stage 2 separation and am willing to shift me efforts to the Stage 1 needs of mentees ( I have no current mentee's ) But not sponsoring a mentee's patches I think ads just a little too much red tape into the program for my taste, I see no problem with it as MOTU should know when they are comfortable uploading a given patch/change , that is of course why they were given upload privileges in the first place. I agree that a Mentor should work to integrate the mentee into the MOTU Community. -- Brandon Holtsclaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.imbrandon.com -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu -- aka nxvl Yo uso Software Libre, y tu? -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Nov 16, 2007 at 05:45:23AM EST, Scott Kitterman wrote: I would additionally like to propose that assigned mentors not sponsor changes by their mentees. This will better integrate mentees with the MOTU community, reduce montor worloak, and expose hopefuls to more diverse inputs from more MOTUs. I'd just like to say that I do this already. I absolutely refuse to sponsor any work that my mentorees do, for this very reason. - -- Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHPLQbjVefwtBjIM4RAtGqAKCkie2nsQae/PL6UylQ+mAuNDWQkACfUUIL okRCImV/e9gw6qkdJ2WVgls= =kXuS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Nov 16, 2007 at 05:08:37AM EST, Cesare Tirabassi wrote: Before adopting this change, we would like to know how many developers would be willing to change to this scheme, and how many would be available to help out with either stage 1, stage 2 or both of them. I'd be for this change, and I'd help with only stage 2, as I find it easier to work with people who know what they are doing for the most part. Yes I can help newbies, but sometimes I find it difficult to explain things that I understand myself, and seem easy to me, but often newcomers don't always understand what I'm saying. I wouldn't say my current mentorees are stage 2, but they are mostly past stage 1, so until they are ready to apply for MOTU, I am happy to continue working with them. After that, as above, I'd be glad to work with stage 2. - -- Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHPLPUjVefwtBjIM4RAsmgAJ9n1JafxxUmndHcdVym78tVdnrSBgCfQGcm MW4SNQrMJH+7Buf8YStdb3I= =rKU7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 Cesare Tirabassi wrote: Before adopting this change, we would like to know how many developers would be willing to change to this scheme, and how many would be available to help out with either stage 1, stage 2 or both of them. I'd be willing to help with stage 1: I find that when someone wants to help, and doesn't know how, providing them with links, and answering simple questions isn't that difficult. I try not to do the work, but more provide guidance. On the other hand, if someone doesn't have the technical skills to reproduce a bug from a clear description (and I can reproduce easily), cannot generate a patch file, or the like, I'd be likely to suggest that they might want to work on bug triage for a while, as I don't think they are ready for stage 1. I'm also happy to look at stage 2, although I'd prefer to work with someone whose interests didn't match mine very closely: it's a lot easier to help prepare a plan for work to be done and sponsor arrangement when I am not distracted by attempting to pass my work to the mentee. My current mentee falls between these stages: quite capable of working via email, LP, and IRC; has connections with at least active one team; but is not yet either active enough nor reknowned enough in the community to apply for MOTU. On Nov 16, 2007 Scott Kitterman wrote: I would additionally like to propose that assigned mentors not sponsor changes by their mentees. This will better integrate mentees with the MOTU community, reduce montor worloak, and expose hopefuls to more diverse inputs from more MOTUs. I'm not opposed to this, but use a different set of criteria: when I've been involved in the production of a patch prior to it reaching the sponsors queue: I consider it a conflict of interest to sponsor. If someone I'm mentoring is generating a lot of patches for sponsorship, many of which are good (my example would be a student on break early this summer), and for which my guidance has been limited to process instruction and encouragements to subscribe to the right mailing lists and join IRC, I don't see an issue with sponsoring the patch. On the other hand, if such a rule is adopted, it makes a lot more sense to impose as a general rule Do not upload for your mentees than something like if you worked on this patch, you shouldn't upload, or please be sure to apply the same sponsoring guidelines to your mentees as for anyone else, as both the latter are far too subjective. -- Emmet HIKORY -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Change in the Mentoring program
I would additionally like to propose that assigned mentors not sponsor changes by their mentees. This will better integrate mentees with the MOTU community, reduce montor worloak, and expose hopefuls to more diverse inputs from more MOTUs. [..] Hm... I like the goal, but I don't see particular harm being done if a mentor sponsors a mentee, as long as the goal is actually still met. +1 I live the idea of Stage 1 and Stage 2 separation and am willing to shift me efforts to the Stage 1 needs of mentees ( I have no current mentee's ) But not sponsoring a mentee's patches I think ads just a little too much red tape into the program for my taste, I see no problem with it as MOTU should know when they are comfortable uploading a given patch/change , that is of course why they were given upload privileges in the first place. I agree that a Mentor should work to integrate the mentee into the MOTU Community. -- Brandon Holtsclaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.imbrandon.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
