Please think before you send bugs to Debian
Recently I was informed by a DD that I often work with about an odd bug that one of my fellow MOTUs had filed. Apparently this person had thought it would be good to suggest the Debian Maintainer incorporate the Ubuntu specific changes in his package. While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the iceweasel symlinks from the package. This would, of course, have made the package quite broken in Debian. Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian. Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that are all to common in Debian. Scott K P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing once Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian. -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 10:34:39PM -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro > relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian. > Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that > are all to common in Debian. This is a great reminder, and I think one that should go out to a broader medium that reaches more potential contributors. > > > P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing once > Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian. > I hope that's a button that is restricted to MOTU or some other prequalified group, not clickable by any random person? I know that, for example, Backports nominations can be done by anyone and I go through plenty of badly marked Backports bug reports :) John signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Scott, Scott Kitterman schrieb: > Recently I was informed by a DD that I often work with about an odd bug that > one of my fellow MOTUs had filed. Apparently this person had thought it > would be good to suggest the Debian Maintainer incorporate the Ubuntu > specific changes in his package. > > While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the > iceweasel symlinks from the package. > > This would, of course, have made the package quite broken in Debian. > > Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro > relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian. > Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that > are all to common in Debian. Thanks for this reminder. Maybe we can codify that somewhere in the wiki. Also the use of submittodebian (ubuntu-dev-tools package) should be encouraged. > P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing once > Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian. If you want your specific concerns about future feature implementation to be answered or addressed, why don't you choose a forum where Launchpad developers can answer the question? All open systems have the problem that they could be tampered with. As somebody who did a lot of Desktop bug triage, I know that a lot of people will see simple-bug-forwarding as beneficial. A few things TTBOMK: - the upstream bug tracker people will need to opt in - the use of the "forward now" button will not be accessible in the UI to everybody by default Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqq7cRjrlnQWd1esRApz+AJ4m8ytaqDkfD/fbJ9UTx732j2RLGwCeKg/p OHvuVwtYS1N50lJfbAT03Xo= =vHCs -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:10:20 +0100 Daniel Holbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hello Scott, > >Scott Kitterman schrieb: >> Recently I was informed by a DD that I often work with about an odd bug that >> one of my fellow MOTUs had filed. Apparently this person had thought it >> would be good to suggest the Debian Maintainer incorporate the Ubuntu >> specific changes in his package. >> >> While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the >> iceweasel symlinks from the package. >> >> This would, of course, have made the package quite broken in Debian. >> >> Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro >> relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian. >> Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that >> are all to common in Debian. > >Thanks for this reminder. Maybe we can codify that somewhere in the >wiki. Also the use of submittodebian (ubuntu-dev-tools package) should >be encouraged. > Go for it. Since the reorganization, I can never tell where things should go. >> P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing once >> Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian. > >If you want your specific concerns about future feature implementation >to be answered or addressed, why don't you choose a forum where >Launchpad developers can answer the question? Already had the conversation. I didn't get very far with it. No point in repeating the frustration again. >All open systems have the problem that they could be tampered with. As >somebody who did a lot of Desktop bug triage, I know that a lot of >people will see simple-bug-forwarding as beneficial. I'm guessing most of these people will be the senders of the bugs. Not the recipients. I know how I've felt about getting nonsense bugs from Baltix. >A few things TTBOMK: > - the upstream bug tracker people will need to opt in > - the use of the "forward now" button will not be accessible in the UI >to everybody by default > Those are good to hear. That's not how it looked last I heard (it's been a while). Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Holbach wrote: > Scott Kitterman schrieb: >> Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro >> relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian. >> >> Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes >> that >> are all to common in Debian. > > Thanks for this reminder. Maybe we can codify that somewhere in the > wiki. Also the use of submittodebian (ubuntu-dev-tools package) should > be encouraged. This worries me. We apparently have various people who don't think before sending changes, yet have direct upload access to most of the archive. Is having a note in the wiki really going to suffice? It appears to me that people who don't use thought in sending changes (and I'm aware that this is not occuring all the time - at least, I hope not!) won't have the thought to check the wiki for sane things to do either. Hobbsee -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqrUJ7/o1b30rzoURAsmtAKCmcoKyae3k4NETCrPQKkf/HItuvgCeK1GG 23WssQdyVf1/m0Z/NL+0wIs= =MGDA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott Kitterman schrieb: > Go for it. Since the reorganization, I can never tell where things should > go. Where would you have put it before? What about doing a title search for Debian? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/ReportingToDebian seems to stand out to me as a good place. > Already had the conversation. I didn't get very far with it. No point in > repeating the frustration again. About the forwarding of bugs? > I'm guessing most of these people will be the senders of the bugs. Not the > recipients. I know how I've felt about getting nonsense bugs from Baltix. If you mean that the person reporting the bug is the person that forwards it upstream, I don't know. We have a lot of bugs that are filed by users and are forward by somebody who either triaged the issue or who fixed the bug. The Debian case might be different but in the case of GNOME more than 95% of the bugs were not forwarded by the bug reporter. (Especially since the majority of bugs the MOTU team deals with are bugs that have patches.) Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqrVQRjrlnQWd1esRAtp9AJ9P7Ri29vqK/bNEVJHvlsCOPUBlMQCeL9kR nl4+HD8GYvuHWs23Xfd6g1Q= =CgIn -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sarah Hobbs schrieb: > This worries me. We apparently have various people who don't think > before sending changes, yet have direct upload access to most of the > archive. Is having a note in the wiki really going to suffice? Everybody has done a mistake in the past - including you. I really don't like that you assume that people did not employ thought. Mistakes are easy to make in a world where lots of problems are dealt with and lots of conversations go on at the same time. It's our task as a team to let each other know when things go wrong. The open culture and trust is our core value. The challenge is to keep these kinds of incidents low. I'm not inclined to believe that the percentage of 'broken' forwarded patches is worrying right now and further not worried that our MOTU members do a bad job. > It appears to me that people who don't use thought in sending changes > (and I'm aware that this is not occuring all the time - at least, I hope > not!) won't have the thought to check the wiki for sane things to do either. My proposal was to document the use of tools like submittodebian, which some people might not know about yet. Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqrjqRjrlnQWd1esRAn4HAJ9HCnJ2VA+82A4UMPcbxqZnfCeZfACdGY05 AjPs5JCBayspGmgnJfaqn7o= =XR/7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott Kitterman schrieb: > While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the > iceweasel symlinks from the package. I just thought that it might make sense to add this kind of side-cases to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingChanges and reference it in places like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/ReportingToDebian I'll look into that. Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqr1QRjrlnQWd1esRAihCAJ9pcIdDCcEb4tGQRY6qBWmDqTclHwCfb0nL CUl1eV6D/bBD2552NssrYZ0= =SpVX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Holbach wrote: > Sarah Hobbs schrieb: >> This worries me. We apparently have various people who don't think >> before sending changes, yet have direct upload access to most of the >> archive. Is having a note in the wiki really going to suffice? > > Everybody has done a mistake in the past - including you. I really don't > like that you assume that people did not employ thought. Come now. I was merely raising the question as to whether a note in the wiki (which a lot of people (especially established MOTU's) don't read, as it's still being rearranged, is the most useful way of conveying this information. That being said, the reason why I didn't suggest something else was that I hadn't come up with a better way of conveying the information to everyone. Clearly, not eloquently enough. I wasn't suggesting throwing people out, etc - if I *was* suggesting such a thing, then I would have come out and said that. Take it, or leave it, as you wish - but please don't jump down my throat for something that I did not say. That is not fair. Hobbsee -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqszk7/o1b30rzoURAlClAJ9CDl1Ef5ciPbkSCmfFyoJqubLuxQCgv2pU 9788ZYx3IAu11WpXcpkacvY= =wLfh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Sarah, I did not mean to tell you off, but express my confidence in all the members of the MOTU team. Sarah Hobbs schrieb: > Come now. I was merely raising the question as to whether a note in the > wiki (which a lot of people (especially established MOTU's) don't read, > as it's still being rearranged, is the most useful way of conveying this > information. > > That being said, the reason why I didn't suggest something else was that > I hadn't come up with a better way of conveying the information to > everyone. Clearly, not eloquently enough. I wasn't suggesting > throwing people out, etc - if I *was* suggesting such a thing, then I > would have come out and said that. > > Take it, or leave it, as you wish - but please don't jump down my throat > for something that I did not say. That is not fair. "We apparently have various people who don't think before sending changes" is the sentence that irked me. For my taste it draws a much too negative picture of the team. I agree that this is an important issue and that we should try to come up with solutions to fix it. Here's what I just did: - asked Alexander Sack to add the list of ice* packages to UbuntuPackagingChanges and add some explanation to it - referenced UbuntuPackagingChanges from more wiki pages (UbuntuDevelopment/Merging, UbuntuDevelopment/KnowledgeBase, , Bugs/ReportingToDebian) - wrote an small note on how to use submittodebian on Bugs/ReportingToDebian - I'll also write James Westby to ask if he plans to add some words about this to his "Working with Debian" session What else could we improve? Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqtVURjrlnQWd1esRAtxFAJ9NyLubT8EK+V0JJ4e9qL/ytGiy1ACfXVO3 3qjz/rsyn+TSE2bSOU67pWw= =qBd0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott Kitterman schrieb: > The forward from the old MOTU/SRU page to the new one needs updating. It > forwards to a #universe anchor that no longer exists. I know. It's a wiki, Fixed it. It's #REDIRECT PageTitle now. Before it was the rather horrible #REFRESH 2 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PageTitle#SomeAnchor which is not as easy to edit, but the only way I know to to redirect to an anchor of another page. Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqxd0RjrlnQWd1esRApG5AJ96LWCcYs7ioi/QN5ohqeyoE7Ni3gCfZYzn tmqvvg0BtjL6fRNYoM8ELqw= =6/HY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please think before you send bugs to Debian
On Thursday 07 February 2008 02:37, Daniel Holbach wrote: > Scott Kitterman schrieb: > > Go for it. Since the reorganization, I can never tell where things > > should go. > > Where would you have put it before? > > What about doing a title search for Debian? > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/ReportingToDebian seems to stand out to me > as a good place. > Agreed. In that case I think it would have been easy enough to understand. In general, I'm sufficiently lost about the new structure that I'm not at all confident about adding things. I still end up getting to most wiki pages I need by hitting the forwards from the old pages. Which reminds me ... The forward from the old MOTU/SRU page to the new one needs updating. It forwards to a #universe anchor that no longer exists. I know. It's a wiki, but I've no idea about how one changes that. I'll get it sorted out eventually (probably after I get a new computer so the old URL's aren't in my browser history any more). Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
