Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
OMG! There has to be an easier way than this. Finally got it working, sort of. Through diligent trial and error I was able to finally add in what X.org wanted in the xorg.conf file to make this work. It did, of course, break something doing this. The boot splash screen no longer comes up, and the desktop comes up at 800x600 rather than 1024x768. I can parse the xorg.conf file with the Nvidia X Server Configurator. I haven't tested to see if that will finally make Ubuntu behave or break what I've done even further. I could try it and keep the current xorg.conf file as backup. I can restore it via the LiveCD if X.org files to work afterwards. As I said, there needs to be a better way to do this. -- Michael "TheZorch" Haney "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion." ~ Arthur C. Clarke "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there is no place for it in the endeavor of science. " ~ Carl Sagan Visit My Site: http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1 To Contact Me: http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1/zorch-central---contacts Free Your PC from the Bondage of Windows http://www.ubuntu.com -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 23:18 -0400, Michael Haney wrote: > I've decided to give Ubuntu another chance. I love the distro, > nothing else compares, and using something else just felt like i'd > taken a trip back in time 10 years. My experience with both Mandriva > 2010 and MEPIS Linux has shown me just how far Ubuntu has come, how > more ahead of the curve Ubuntu is. The Monitor Detection issue is a > serious problem and does need addressing. I'm going to join the Gnome > list and see what I can do about getting something done towards fixing > it. Its an issue which should have been corrected long ago. Perhaps > I can get someone to make a better randr frontend that can be used to > change your monitor hardware settings. I have no programming > expertise at all. I'm going to be learning Java. The last time I > programmed was in ANSI-C on an old Unix minicomputer 15 years ago, and > I've dabbled a little in Perl. I don't know anything about Mono, > Python or Qt. > > Thank you all. I'll give G. Bowman's X.org suggestion a try. FWIW, this isn't necessarily a Ubuntu issue as I've seen very similar behaviour in RHEL and SLES, especially with off-brand LCDs and monitors that don't report correct data anyway. I've also seen this issue a LOT when running X on systems connected to KVMs that do not properly pass the DDC probing info between the monitor and the computer. Unfortunately, I do not know of a way in Ubuntu to get around this aside from hand crafting an Xorg.conf file. It's my understanding that Xorg will use that file, if present in /etc/X11 instead of auto-probing everything. You could also try booting into recovery mode and running this: # Xorg -configure which should create an Xorg.conf file based on what probing returns, and then edit that as needed to match your monitors settings. I'm not saying that the ability to config Xorg manually via GUI or CLI tools does not exist in Ubuntu, I've just never used them, or really looked that hard for them as my systems all probe successfully. -- Jeff Lane Ubuntu Ham: W4KDH IRC: bladernr or bladernr_ gpg: 1024D/3A14B2DD 8C88 B076 0DD7 B404 1417 C466 4ABD 3635 3A14 B2DD signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
I've decided to give Ubuntu another chance. I love the distro, nothing else compares, and using something else just felt like i'd taken a trip back in time 10 years. My experience with both Mandriva 2010 and MEPIS Linux has shown me just how far Ubuntu has come, how more ahead of the curve Ubuntu is. The Monitor Detection issue is a serious problem and does need addressing. I'm going to join the Gnome list and see what I can do about getting something done towards fixing it. Its an issue which should have been corrected long ago. Perhaps I can get someone to make a better randr frontend that can be used to change your monitor hardware settings. I have no programming expertise at all. I'm going to be learning Java. The last time I programmed was in ANSI-C on an old Unix minicomputer 15 years ago, and I've dabbled a little in Perl. I don't know anything about Mono, Python or Qt. Thank you all. I'll give G. Bowman's X.org suggestion a try. -- Michael "TheZorch" Haney "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion." ~ Arthur C. Clarke "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there is no place for it in the endeavor of science. " ~ Carl Sagan Visit My Site: http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1 To Contact Me: http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1/zorch-central---contacts Free Your PC from the Bondage of Windows http://www.ubuntu.com -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:32 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Grant Bowman wrote: >> Regarding failed monitor auto-detection, one procedure I have used >> successfully is described by going to www.x.org, clicking FAQ then >> ConfigurationHelp. Here is a direct link. >> http://www.x.org/wiki/ConfigurationHelp This procedure uses the >> current auto-detection code to write a fresh xorg.conf file which you >> can carefully edit with your changes from previous versions. These >> files in my experience are well commented. With some additional >> research each change you require can be added in whatever new syntax >> might be required for the particular version of "X" you are running. >> Using an xorg.conf file from an older version of X may have >> unpredictable results. It sounds like this has stopped working for >> you. > > Do you know whether X has any way of hardcoding (into Xorg, I mean) > information about monitors that provide incorrect information? I'm > thinking of like how in ALSA there are quirk tables. Hi Mackenzie, I don't know how the code for auto-detection of monitors works but I have used the above linked procedure (also described in the X wiki pages) to work around it. As I perform some more searches I see quite a few items on brainstorm.ubuntu.com and ubuntuforums.org with problems auto-detecting monitors. Another complication I came across just this week when I installed 10.04 on a laptop was that it required the use of binary drivers for the video card and wifi adapater to allow suspend and resume to work. In fact https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/MonitorDetection says "Monitor detection is one of Ubuntu/Xorg's most major problems." My experience sponsoring several school computer labs in San Francisco using donated hardware seems to support this claim. X/MonitorDetection gives a great description of the problem from the x.org perspective with some insight into why the problem exists. Unfortunately that page was written in 2007 and has not been updated. Thank you for the link to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Resolution you provided earlier in this thread. The X wiki pages have some great information. To answer your question I suspect it would best be asked on IRC or the Ubuntu X mail list linked from the ~ubuntu-x-swat launchpad team page. https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-x Regards, Grant Bowman https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Grant Bowman wrote: > Regarding failed monitor auto-detection, one procedure I have used > successfully is described by going to www.x.org, clicking FAQ then > ConfigurationHelp. Here is a direct link. > http://www.x.org/wiki/ConfigurationHelp This procedure uses the > current auto-detection code to write a fresh xorg.conf file which you > can carefully edit with your changes from previous versions. These > files in my experience are well commented. With some additional > research each change you require can be added in whatever new syntax > might be required for the particular version of "X" you are running. > Using an xorg.conf file from an older version of X may have > unpredictable results. It sounds like this has stopped working for > you. Do you know whether X has any way of hardcoding (into Xorg, I mean) information about monitors that provide incorrect information? I'm thinking of like how in ALSA there are quirk tables. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Jeremy Foshee wrote: > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:34:02AM -0400, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: >> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Michael Haney wrote: >> > A GUI based solution to the monitor issue like what Ubuntu 7.04 had in >> > the Screen Resolution window's Hardware tab is what is required. The >> > point is the Hardware tab should not have been removed and needs to be >> > restored. That is my argument. Its removal resulted in consequences >> > which were not properly explored. Had a thorough study been done the >> > development community would not have removed it due to the chaos for >> > many users it would cause. >> >> It wasn't exactly removed. The entire tool was replaced with a >> frontend for xrandr because X (as you've noticed) has changed >> significantly on the backend. Nobody has gotten around to adding that >> functionality to the GUI for xrandr. Are you volunteering to write a >> tool that lets you add modes through a GUI? If not, this'd be a >> feature request on GNOME Control Center. This list is not a bug >> tracker. >> > I'd also like to point out that Modesetting now occurs in the kernel and > such a tool would have to take that into consideration as one would need > to work with the kernel to change mode. This change occured fairly > recently and, with the changes in DRM being backported into Lucid and > subsequently being different in Maverick, one would need to consider > these changes as well. Hello Michael, I sympathize with your frustration and I agree that a better solution to this issue would benefit many Ubuntu installers. Given how the code bases have evolved this seems to be a tough problem. Unfortunately I think ubuntu-qa is the wrong forum to get the answers you seek. These changes began upstream from the Ubuntu project. What is the right forum? I don't know of any "silver bullet" type answer to this issue. There also might be different ways to get a) your immediate configuration need addressed and b) a GUI tool for all users developed. Here are are some educated guesses. I welcome others who know more to correct me or provide more detail than I am currently aware of. I find that IRC is a great way to get questions answered. There are many relevant channels but #ubuntu, despite being very busy, often has skilled people with good answers available. Other channels require more patience and persistence in getting a good response. While the quality of answer from an IRC channel depends on who might be participating at that time, more than once I have used a "pastebin" like http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/ to show some interested person on IRC my configuration and get help in updating it to work with a new configuration. I recommend starting with IRC to address your immediate configuration issue. Mail lists can be useful as well. If there are user groups in your area you may find others that have had similar problems that can help in the process of producing a better solution. You might consider joining some of the various resources of the http://www.x.org and http://www.kernel.org project. While these resources are quite technical these are the most qualified people to provide a real solution. As has been indicated there have been some substantial changes to the graphics system, both within x.org and with Kernel Mode Settings (KMS) now in the kernel with more to come. >From an Ubuntu project perspective, I believe joining the launchpad team https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat and their mail list would be the best way to work with the appropriate developers. These people may be able help you with issues that are Ubuntu specific. Regarding failed monitor auto-detection, one procedure I have used successfully is described by going to www.x.org, clicking FAQ then ConfigurationHelp. Here is a direct link. http://www.x.org/wiki/ConfigurationHelp This procedure uses the current auto-detection code to write a fresh xorg.conf file which you can carefully edit with your changes from previous versions. These files in my experience are well commented. With some additional research each change you require can be added in whatever new syntax might be required for the particular version of "X" you are running. Using an xorg.conf file from an older version of X may have unpredictable results. It sounds like this has stopped working for you. I hope some of this helps, Grant Bowman https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:34:02AM -0400, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Michael Haney wrote: > > A GUI based solution to the monitor issue like what Ubuntu 7.04 had in > > the Screen Resolution window's Hardware tab is what is required. The > > point is the Hardware tab should not have been removed and needs to be > > restored. That is my argument. Its removal resulted in consequences > > which were not properly explored. Had a thorough study been done the > > development community would not have removed it due to the chaos for > > many users it would cause. > > It wasn't exactly removed. The entire tool was replaced with a > frontend for xrandr because X (as you've noticed) has changed > significantly on the backend. Nobody has gotten around to adding that > functionality to the GUI for xrandr. Are you volunteering to write a > tool that lets you add modes through a GUI? If not, this'd be a > feature request on GNOME Control Center. This list is not a bug > tracker. > I'd also like to point out that Modesetting now occurs in the kernel and such a tool would have to take that into consideration as one would need to work with the kernel to change mode. This change occured fairly recently and, with the changes in DRM being backported into Lucid and subsequently being different in Maverick, one would need to consider these changes as well. ~JFo > -- > Mackenzie Morgan > http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com > apt-get moo > > -- > Ubuntu-qa mailing list > Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Michael Haney wrote: > A GUI based solution to the monitor issue like what Ubuntu 7.04 had in > the Screen Resolution window's Hardware tab is what is required. The > point is the Hardware tab should not have been removed and needs to be > restored. That is my argument. Its removal resulted in consequences > which were not properly explored. Had a thorough study been done the > development community would not have removed it due to the chaos for > many users it would cause. It wasn't exactly removed. The entire tool was replaced with a frontend for xrandr because X (as you've noticed) has changed significantly on the backend. Nobody has gotten around to adding that functionality to the GUI for xrandr. Are you volunteering to write a tool that lets you add modes through a GUI? If not, this'd be a feature request on GNOME Control Center. This list is not a bug tracker. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Michael Haney wrote: >> It was decided to let X.org auto-detect video hardware starting with >> Ubuntu 7.10. Unfortunately, the auto-detection procedure does not >> always work correctly. Some monitors are not Plug & Play, which is >> needed for this to work properly. The resulting problem that occurs >> is one which I have had and struggled with for some time, which >> eventually forced me to make a switch to different Linux distribution >> just to correct the issue. Getting Ubuntu to detect the correct video >> card and getting the video card to work is not the problem. Detection >> of the monitor hardware and no longer being able to manually change >> those settings is what is the problem. > > http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Resolution -- in particular, see 4.2 > This is not a Quality Assured solution but a temporary workaround. Ubuntu is a Linux distribution directly targeting "newcomers to Linux" and thus a solution that involves the Command Prompt isn't acceptable. The Command Prompt frightens "newcomers to Linux" because of all of the anti-Linux propaganda that is out there about the myth of always having to use the Command Prompt and dealing with its immense complexities. A GUI based solution to the monitor issue like what Ubuntu 7.04 had in the Screen Resolution window's Hardware tab is what is required. The point is the Hardware tab should not have been removed and needs to be restored. That is my argument. Its removal resulted in consequences which were not properly explored. Had a thorough study been done the development community would not have removed it due to the chaos for many users it would cause. This seemingly insurmountable problem has resulted in these "newcomers" to either abandon Ubuntu for another distribution that does offer this feature, or God forbid, return to Windows. Given these facts the restoration of this feature should be made a high priority as it is a clear Quality Assurance issue. Failure to act on this issue raises serious doubts about the effectiveness of the Quality Assurance Team to ensure that Ubuntu is free of such problems. Prove that statement wrong and ensure that this problem gets addressed. -- Michael "TheZorch" Haney thezo...@gmail.com -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Re: Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Michael Haney wrote: > It was decided to let X.org auto-detect video hardware starting with > Ubuntu 7.10. Unfortunately, the auto-detection procedure does not > always work correctly. Some monitors are not Plug & Play, which is > needed for this to work properly. The resulting problem that occurs > is one which I have had and struggled with for some time, which > eventually forced me to make a switch to different Linux distribution > just to correct the issue. Getting Ubuntu to detect the correct video > card and getting the video card to work is not the problem. Detection > of the monitor hardware and no longer being able to manually change > those settings is what is the problem. http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Resolution -- in particular, see 4.2 -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
Removed Feature Impact Quality of Ubuntu
There is an issue with Ubuntu that started in version 7.10 and persists all the way to 10.04. In previous versions before 7.10 users were able to change the make and model of their monitors from the Hardware tab in the screen resolution window in the System => Preferences.window. This was removed in 7.10 and all later versions of Ubuntu. The removal of this feature has had undesirable consequences which need to be addressed immediately. It was decided to let X.org auto-detect video hardware starting with Ubuntu 7.10. Unfortunately, the auto-detection procedure does not always work correctly. Some monitors are not Plug & Play, which is needed for this to work properly. The resulting problem that occurs is one which I have had and struggled with for some time, which eventually forced me to make a switch to different Linux distribution just to correct the issue. Getting Ubuntu to detect the correct video card and getting the video card to work is not the problem. Detection of the monitor hardware and no longer being able to manually change those settings is what is the problem. After Ubuntu is installed, X.org detects the monitor as just "default monitor". The maximum available screen resolution is 800x600. Being visually impaired I'm dependent on the Enhanced Desktop Zoom feature of Compiz Fusion, which requires that I install the drivers for my Nvidia graphics card. After these drivers are installed my maximum screen resolution is 640x480. Ubuntu is unusable at that resolution because many windows do not scale nor do they let you scroll down to portions which are hidden off screen. This is a problem that is impacting many users. Prior to Ubuntu 10.04 I have been copying & pasting the monitor settings from the xorg.conf generated by 7.04 into the xorg.conf files of each new release. This has been a workaround, but it invariably breaks something in the process. The Nvidia X Server Configuration Tool for instance cannot save settings to xorg.conf anymore, is a prime example. Another is the login screen is set to 6040x480 but the screen area pans at 1024x786. When I login the desktop changes resolutions to 1024x768 which is large enough to give me a lot of work space but not too small for me to read. This is particularly helpful with web pages, which are usually made for screens at 1024x768. Plus, if something is far too small I have the Enchance Desktop Zoom of Compiz Fusion to help. Using this copy & paste workaround does not work in Ubuntu 10.04, however. X.org will not start. In fact the system hangs. Apparently fundamental changes in the format in which information is stored and/or read in the xorg.conf file appears to have changed, and now the old settings text from my xorg.conf file from version 7.04 no longer works. This has prompted me to switch to Mandria for the time being, which allows me to have a Compiz Fusion glx enabled desktop at 1024x768. While Mandriva is indeed a user friendly Linux distribution its not nearly as polished as Ubuntu, and also not as many applications are available as RPMs are compared to Debian. The main problem is the lack of a feature to manually change the monitor settings in Ubuntu. If something similar to the Hardware tab were available in a separate window in the System => Administration menu then this wouldn't be an issue. However, there is no easy or clear-cut way to correct this problem at this current time unless something changes. In the spirit of improving Ubuntu's accessibility I believe a Preferences window should be made that allows users to manually change the monitor type just like we were able to do in Ubuntu 7.04 in the Hardware tab of the Screen Resolution window. This feature should not have been removed originally. Speaking as a Visually Impaired Linux User this has seriously impaired my ability to use Ubuntu. It is my hope that this message prompts the development community to take action and correct this problem as soon as possible. -- Michael "TheZorch" Haney "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion." ~ Arthur C. Clarke "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there is no place for it in the endeavor of science. " ~ Carl Sagan Visit My Site: http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1 To Contact Me: http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1/zorch-central---contacts Free Your PC from the Bondage of Windows http://www.ubuntu.com -- Ubuntu-qa mailing list Ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
