Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
There are a lot of truths in what you are saying. There seems to be some points that I have different thoughts about. There are limited programmer resources and seems to be a good idea to pre-work which can be done by none-programmers. There are and probably always will be some big amount of bug reports and some of them are critical, some important, some not so important and some trivial. Thus one needs to prioritize somehow. During this of course mistakes can be made. One of the way to see how important a bug is to try to reproduce. A bug to be a bug does not necessary need to be reproducable. However you can have bugs that are just freak incidents - had some which never returned - ever. Also if the bug can be only produced on one computer then it can be an isolated bug effecting a rare architecture or set of circumstances. In this case the question will rise how important that bug is compare to one that appears on every or at least a lot of different computers. Also raises the question how to fix it if the programmer does not have that architecture and thus can't reproduce, test. Pretty hard to work with I would think. These are my thoughts. Ml, Gabor Toth Sent from Nexus 7 On Dec 28, 2013 1:12 PM, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/12/13 23:22, Gabor Toth wrote: Hi Matteo, You see several points correctly as far as I can see. There is a point though that I think your point is missing reality. As you know Ubuntu is for a big part a community project or at least community of volunteers pitch in with quite some work including the bug squad [...] I don't think I missed that point. I think I do know that. Of course if there was an enterprise with money and resources to spend into maintaining Ubuntu (oh wait, there _is_ one and it's called Canonical, but anyway I don't know how big its resources are and how relevant compared to the volunteer effort of the opensource comminity at large) more people could be working at it and more work could be done. (And yes, no questioning that big enterprises with enormous resources like MS and A***e do an astonishingly bad job in using those resources.) The fact is that a lot of people _are_ working at it and a lot of work _is_ being done, and sometimes I get the impression that much of this effort is simply not put in the right direction. On this very list I read bits of a conversation (I thing it was about the 100-Papercuts project or whatever it is called) in which a list of directions was being made about things to do in order to progress as quickly and/or effectively as possible. One of the suggested directions was to look for bugs filtered by certain criteria and one of the criteria was: - confirmed bugs That seems to me tremendously wrong. It looks to me like there are some underlying assumptions in the way bugs are managed, among others: 1 - people and groups of people who dedicate their organized effort in thorough testing (let's call them pro testers, regardless of whether their effort is volunteer or paid) will find and report the most part of the most relevant bugs (meaning those with the greatest impact on end users) 2 - Bug reports filed by end users don't deserve any attention until they are confirmed by at least another user 3 - Bug reports filed by end users don't deserve working at them until they include all the information 4 - If it is detected that some information is missing in order for a bug to be workable, it is completely the responsibility of the original reporter to provide this information; until he/she doesn't, the bug report doesn't deserve any attention. All of these assumption are wrong; the last one probably the wrongest. I'll anticipate an objection to the last assumption in my list: that I get it wrong and the actual assumption being made is: the original reporter is the only one who can provide that additional information, and if he/she doesn't, sorry but there's nothing that can be done about that bug report. Well in many, many cases, that is simply untrue. So, the policy of completely ignoring a bug that is in the need info state until the original reporter responds, and have it expire if she doesn't within a given time, is simply wrong. In my opinion, the very concept of a bug report expiring is wrong. Just in case you want some arguments to back the statement that the mentioned assumptions are wrong: 1 - wrong. A huge lot of big-impact bugs will elude testing and be found by end users. Note that I'm not questioning at all that this work done by the pro testers should be done, nor that it's being done in the best way possible; I'm just saying it can't be assumed that it alone will accomplish the greatest part of the goal, making the rest scarcely relevant. 2 - wrong. In many cases there's no need to wait for a second person to incur in the same bug. Unless you think the reporter is inventing a fake bug (which of course is
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Hi, hugging a bug is one of the best things a non-programmer can do. Find a bug that you care about and see as an issue for the wider family and 'run with it'. Go and ask people about how much work is needed to solve it, research the bug to see if it is fixed in other members of the linux familiy (an example being that there was a patch for a bug in red-hat kernel which could then be pulled into the ubuntu one, via debian)... Sounds crazy? yes it is. It also takes a quite a lot of patience and time to follow things up. If you can give the people who *can* fix the bugs enough information they will happily assist you. There is a recent example that I 'ran' with and still owe a massive thanks to everyone else who provided information / patches / testing. Do read the bug history [1] entirely and you will get a good idea as to how involved hugging a bug can become :) But, it is exceedingly rewarding. Regards, Phill. 1. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1227202 On 28 December 2013 12:46, Gabor Toth gabor...@gmail.com wrote: There are a lot of truths in what you are saying. There seems to be some points that I have different thoughts about. There are limited programmer resources and seems to be a good idea to pre-work which can be done by none-programmers. There are and probably always will be some big amount of bug reports and some of them are critical, some important, some not so important and some trivial. Thus one needs to prioritize somehow. During this of course mistakes can be made. One of the way to see how important a bug is to try to reproduce. A bug to be a bug does not necessary need to be reproducable. However you can have bugs that are just freak incidents - had some which never returned - ever. Also if the bug can be only produced on one computer then it can be an isolated bug effecting a rare architecture or set of circumstances. In this case the question will rise how important that bug is compare to one that appears on every or at least a lot of different computers. Also raises the question how to fix it if the programmer does not have that architecture and thus can't reproduce, test. Pretty hard to work with I would think. These are my thoughts. Ml, Gabor Toth Sent from Nexus 7 On Dec 28, 2013 1:12 PM, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/12/13 23:22, Gabor Toth wrote: Hi Matteo, You see several points correctly as far as I can see. There is a point though that I think your point is missing reality. As you know Ubuntu is for a big part a community project or at least community of volunteers pitch in with quite some work including the bug squad [...] I don't think I missed that point. I think I do know that. Of course if there was an enterprise with money and resources to spend into maintaining Ubuntu (oh wait, there _is_ one and it's called Canonical, but anyway I don't know how big its resources are and how relevant compared to the volunteer effort of the opensource comminity at large) more people could be working at it and more work could be done. (And yes, no questioning that big enterprises with enormous resources like MS and A***e do an astonishingly bad job in using those resources.) The fact is that a lot of people _are_ working at it and a lot of work _is_ being done, and sometimes I get the impression that much of this effort is simply not put in the right direction. On this very list I read bits of a conversation (I thing it was about the 100-Papercuts project or whatever it is called) in which a list of directions was being made about things to do in order to progress as quickly and/or effectively as possible. One of the suggested directions was to look for bugs filtered by certain criteria and one of the criteria was: - confirmed bugs That seems to me tremendously wrong. It looks to me like there are some underlying assumptions in the way bugs are managed, among others: 1 - people and groups of people who dedicate their organized effort in thorough testing (let's call them pro testers, regardless of whether their effort is volunteer or paid) will find and report the most part of the most relevant bugs (meaning those with the greatest impact on end users) 2 - Bug reports filed by end users don't deserve any attention until they are confirmed by at least another user 3 - Bug reports filed by end users don't deserve working at them until they include all the information 4 - If it is detected that some information is missing in order for a bug to be workable, it is completely the responsibility of the original reporter to provide this information; until he/she doesn't, the bug report doesn't deserve any attention. All of these assumption are wrong; the last one probably the wrongest. I'll anticipate an objection to the last assumption in my list: that I get it wrong and the actual assumption being made is: the original reporter is the only one who
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
On 26/12/13 19:14, Gabor Toth wrote: I would question though if bluetooth would be the most major issue. Obviously not the most major issue in Ubuntu. There are bigger issues, like those that completely freeze the whole system obliging you to do a hard reboot and loose all unsaved data, or sudden xorg crashes/logouts (which also wipe out all your unsaved data) or not being able to hibernate (and if you do, take the risk you may not be able to resume). But bluetooth and wifi connectivity (oh!! and mobile broadband! what a nightmare too) are the kind of things that one expects to be completely painless, as you won't easily find a smartphone that has the smallest wifi/bluetooth issue, so in comparison it's a little embarassing and irritating to find yourself unable to use bluetooth on a laptop. I personally did not have much problem with that for what I was using it for - sending music over to a bluetooth device. Worked with a few click no manual setting or scripting at all. I personally use it mainly for transferring files (primarily pictures) from my android smartphone to the computer (which is only a small fraction of its uses, I realise), and it also used to work without and manual setting or scripting at all... not even a click! (except clicking on OK when you had received a file), on previous versions of Ubuntu. It occasionally would start to systematically reject all transfers, which used to be fixed by turning bluetooth off and on. Now on 13.04 and on my new computer, sending a file from the phone is completely impossible, so I've started browsing files on the phone from the computer, which works like 15% of the times. I do think that a team to look into bluetooth would be helpful. However, as there are few people who can work on sections such as the drivers for, e.g. nvidia, In the mean time, go complain to companies who do not have linux drivers for their hardware :) Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression everybody here is assuming all or most bluetooth issues are related to drivers. The fact is most of the bug reports have not even been looked at, and I suspect a few of them are not even related to drivers, being either in the tray-icon applet or in Nautilus. In many cases the hcidump is completely empty while experiencing the issue. By the way, I got the impression there is a kind of more general issue in the way bugs are managed, please take it into consideration, I may be completely mistaken of course. It looks to me like there's a gap that needs to be filled between users reporting bugs and developers working on fixing triaged and confirmed bugs. That is, the typical lifecycle of a lot of bug reports (of course I see this mainly on bugs I report myself, so I don't claim this is statistically significant) is: - a user files a bug report - then either: -- A: nobody (capable of fixing, investigating, triaging or digging into it) even looks at it until it's confirmed, which may be in ages or just never or -- B: - somebody (or a bot) asks for more infomration, like please test upstream kernels, or whatever. - The OP simply can't, or doesn't want to, or hasn't the skills or the time to, or just WON'T, do that. Most of the time the required work of collecting additional information must be done by somebody with more experience and knowledge than you can expect by the original reporter. - so the bug expires. Most of the bugs I report end like that, and many that I didn't report myself but I found out describing the issues I was experimenting, had the exact same fate. If the strategy used to tackle bugs is: - developers only look at/for confirmed, perfectly triaged bug reports with already enough information to start fixing them - expect users who encounter the issues to file complete, perfect, already workable bug reports - then have some people dedicated to testing who, of course, will file complete, perfect, already workable bug reports (and expect this to be enough to find and report most relevant issues) then sorry but that's a wrong strategy and is not going to work. Those trained people dedicated to testing will only find a ridiculously small percentage of bugs affecting end users (I'm not saying there's anything wrong in that, that's certainly a necessary and invaluable work). But bug reports filed by end users, finding bugs that have eluded dedicated testing, will either starve or expire. Either developers who work at fixing bugs or testers who usually do thorough testing, should also look at unconfirmed, need-info, etc. bug reports where the OP hasn't provided (and will never provide) all the needed information, because often the bug report, whether or not the issue is easily reproducible, does contain enough information for somebody to investigate and test it further and take it to the next step. As a user, like me, who uses some amazing software that has been created by the
Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Guys please, one of the greatest annoyances in Ubuntu is that connecting bluetooth devices (e.g. mobile phones) and exchange files with them is almost impossible, and it has become worse and worse as the latest releases of ubuntu have been released. Just search launchpad for bugs with the bluetooth keyword (don't forget to include non-confirmed bugs). I myself have reported quite a few of them, none of which has even got the importance decided. Oh wait, ONE, which is now 3 years old, has got the wrong low value for importance (while it is at least major). Things like these are the reason why so many people still prefer to pay for shitty operating systems like Windows rather than using Ubuntu for free. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Um... lemme comment in a few things I see wrong in your email. Firstly, bug importance isn't set based on yours or mine's opinion only, there's certain things that importance is influenced by. (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance). Secondly, the compatability of Bluetooth cards and transceivers with the kernel is an issue. We have the same problem with some wifi cards and even sound cards. Ultimately if there are no Linux drivers for a certain Bluetooth card then either drivers need to be written or the manufacturer has to have Linux drivers made for that. Thirdly, your attitude of anger at this issue, Matteo, by swearing and such in your message, gets us nowhere. As these lists are public, and many many people are on these lists, getting angry on the QA mailing lists doesn't help. Ultimately, yes, I think your points that some features don't work is why Ubuntu hasn't gained a huge amount of use. In the long run these things tend to get fixed though. (As well, we have to typically wait for drivers to be written by either the open source community or the hardware manufacturer before we can truly fix all hardware problems where cards don't work in Linux, though, and creating drivers takes a while and a lot of effort so for that one you need a ton of patience.) -- Thomas *Sent from my phone. Please excuse any typos, as they are likely to happen by accident.* On Dec 26, 2013, at 6:25, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com wrote: Guys please, one of the greatest annoyances in Ubuntu is that connecting bluetooth devices (e.g. mobile phones) and exchange files with them is almost impossible, and it has become worse and worse as the latest releases of ubuntu have been released. Just search launchpad for bugs with the bluetooth keyword (don't forget to include non-confirmed bugs). I myself have reported quite a few of them, none of which has even got the importance decided. Oh wait, ONE, which is now 3 years old, has got the wrong low value for importance (while it is at least major). Things like these are the reason why so many people still prefer to pay for shitty operating systems like Windows rather than using Ubuntu for free. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
On 26/12/13 18:07, Thomas Ward wrote: Um... lemme comment in a few things I see wrong in your email. Firstly, bug importance isn't set based on yours or mine's opinion only, there's certain things that importance is influenced by. (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance). Yes, and importance low for such an issue is wrong based on those criteria, not on my or your opinion. (So this wasn't something wrong in my email, but that doesn't matter) Secondly, the compatability of Bluetooth cards and transceivers with the kernel is an issue. We have the same problem with some wifi cards and even sound cards. Ultimately if there are no Linux drivers for a certain Bluetooth card then either drivers need to be written or the manufacturer has to have Linux drivers made for that. Ok, I don't see how that's something wrong in my email, but that's interesting. So, writing drivers for bluetooth cards (if that is the cause of the many issues with bluetooth) is one of the places where effort should be concentrated in order to make Ubuntu quality better. Thirdly, your attitude of anger at this issue, Matteo, by swearing and such in your message, Where did I swear in my message? Oh yes, sorry, shitty operating systems like Windows, that was the only one. Sorry about that. Note that wasn't about anyting related to ubuntu, however. gets us nowhere. I don't expect my anger to get anybody anywhere but I was trying to give a suggestion. IIUC, The QA list is meant to discuss what actions could be taken to improve Ubuntu quality, right? Among which, which categories of bugs may need serious attention. So here's the point I was trying to make: there are a pretty huge bunch of bugs related to bluetooth that are degrading the Ubuntu experience a lot, are even getting worse over time, and are not getting the attention they deserve (which is demonstrated by the fact most of them don't even the importance decided, let alone correctly or not). So that's a problem to take into consideration, just in case it wasn't already, and whether or not the person pointing it out (me) is an hole shouldn't matter a lot. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Hello Guys! I was following up the interesting conversation about bluetooth compatibility with Ubuntu. May I throw in some of my thoughts here? Thanks. :) I can see the point that is being made by Matteo and certainly hardware that is not usable with Ubuntu is a major problem as of getting Ubuntu widely used. I would question though if bluetooth would be the most major issue. I personally did not have much problem with that for what I was using it for - sending music over to a bluetooth device. Worked with a few click no manual setting or scripting at all. I can see that this was not the issue for you Matteo so of course I can be wrong and it is perhaps very important issue for many people. If I might throw in a suggestion to solve this matter: there could possible be done a survey for people that are using Ubuntu or trying to use it and see what is the issue - hardware or otherwise - that comes up the most. Getting it answered by a number of people - pro's and and amateurs alike - we could get a clear picture of what actually is the major issue and perhaps resources could be directed towards that. I do not think Matteo that you would be an hole even though I do not know you so I might be wrong again. :P And yes, absolutely no swearing on these lists so calm the fck down! (Sorry. LOL Couldn't miss that.) Ml, Gabor On 12/26/2013 06:33 PM, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: On 26/12/13 18:07, Thomas Ward wrote: Um... lemme comment in a few things I see wrong in your email. Firstly, bug importance isn't set based on yours or mine's opinion only, there's certain things that importance is influenced by. (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance). Yes, and importance low for such an issue is wrong based on those criteria, not on my or your opinion. (So this wasn't something wrong in my email, but that doesn't matter) Secondly, the compatability of Bluetooth cards and transceivers with the kernel is an issue. We have the same problem with some wifi cards and even sound cards. Ultimately if there are no Linux drivers for a certain Bluetooth card then either drivers need to be written or the manufacturer has to have Linux drivers made for that. Ok, I don't see how that's something wrong in my email, but that's interesting. So, writing drivers for bluetooth cards (if that is the cause of the many issues with bluetooth) is one of the places where effort should be concentrated in order to make Ubuntu quality better. Thirdly, your attitude of anger at this issue, Matteo, by swearing and such in your message, Where did I swear in my message? Oh yes, sorry, shitty operating systems like Windows, that was the only one. Sorry about that. Note that wasn't about anyting related to ubuntu, however. gets us nowhere. I don't expect my anger to get anybody anywhere but I was trying to give a suggestion. IIUC, The QA list is meant to discuss what actions could be taken to improve Ubuntu quality, right? Among which, which categories of bugs may need serious attention. So here's the point I was trying to make: there are a pretty huge bunch of bugs related to bluetooth that are degrading the Ubuntu experience a lot, are even getting worse over time, and are not getting the attention they deserve (which is demonstrated by the fact most of them don't even the importance decided, let alone correctly or not). So that's a problem to take into consideration, just in case it wasn't already, and whether or not the person pointing it out (me) is an hole shouldn't matter a lot. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Maybe it would be possible to qualify this Bluetooth business for hundred paper cuts treatment... I don't expect my anger to get anybody anywhere but I was trying to give a suggestion. IIUC, The QA list is meant to discuss what actions could be taken to improve Ubuntu quality, right? Among which, which categories of bugs may need serious attention. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
My vote for upping the interest level in bluetooth. I wish I could use my bluetooth keyboard every time I test a new build of Ubuntu on a tablet. There's only so much I can do with the soft keyboard, and not just because I'm old with fat fingers and failing eyesight. There are times when I need to see the whole screen *and* type something. And, in the interest of broader-acceptance-of-Ubuntu, users who do serious work on Android/iOS tablets often rely on bluetooth keyboards. -dave On 12/26/2013 11:36 AM, chris hermansen wrote: Maybe it would be possible to qualify this Bluetooth business for hundred paper cuts treatment... I don't expect my anger to get anybody anywhere but I was trying to give a suggestion. IIUC, The QA list is meant to discuss what actions could be taken to improve Ubuntu quality, right? Among which, which categories of bugs may need serious attention. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Chris, you read my mind :) But, paper cuts do need people to solve them. Were ubuntu (and linux in general) have enough developers and coders then we would be about a decade forward to where we are currently owing to 'secrecy' and the new toy... 'patent'. Totally off topic, but people such as http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 made things happen. Regards, Phill. On 26 December 2013 18:36, chris hermansen clherman...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe it would be possible to qualify this Bluetooth business for hundred paper cuts treatment... I don't expect my anger to get anybody anywhere but I was trying to give a suggestion. IIUC, The QA list is meant to discuss what actions could be taken to improve Ubuntu quality, right? Among which, which categories of bugs may need serious attention. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: Unusability of bluetooth is one of the worst plagues in Ubuntu
Phill hit it on the nose. But what we also need to note is that the Bluetooth bugs have different levels of dev experience needed to fix. For new Bluetooth hardware, Linux drivers might not exist, or be obsolete. A kernel dev might need to go in and either fix existing open source drivers, or have to wait for the manufacturer to release Linux drivers, or for the community to make open source ones. I don't think Bluetooth on its own is papercuts-worthy. The software that uses Bluetooth drivers and cards might be, but not the lack of hardware drivers and similar issues. -- Thomas *Sent from my phone. Please excuse any typos, as they are likely to happen by accident.* On Dec 26, 2013, at 14:11, Phill Whiteside phi...@phillw.net wrote: Chris, you read my mind :) But, paper cuts do need people to solve them. Were ubuntu (and linux in general) have enough developers and coders then we would be about a decade forward to where we are currently owing to 'secrecy' and the new toy... 'patent'. Totally off topic, but people such as http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 made things happen. Regards, Phill. On 26 December 2013 18:36, chris hermansen clherman...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe it would be possible to qualify this Bluetooth business for hundred paper cuts treatment... I don't expect my anger to get anybody anywhere but I was trying to give a suggestion. IIUC, The QA list is meant to discuss what actions could be taken to improve Ubuntu quality, right? Among which, which categories of bugs may need serious attention. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
