Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 18:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: xfce's appfinder would not give a menu. Does the (pseudo-)menu show all desktop files? Does it ignore entries as e.g. "OnlyShowIn"? I am not sure where you are going with the few lines above :) If I assume you mean when running xfce's menu in Unity. The answer is that I really don't know. I did not do close checking as I could not get other things working as I liked. That is, the concept itself did not seem to work. Having said that, I think it is possible to override some of that stuff in the menu definition file. However, I am also not sure I would want to do that. Most of the onlyshowin apps are that way for a reason. The next question of course is what DE would xfce4-panel think it was running in :) again, I don't know. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote: Hardware: - Most of Blackmagic hardware work great with Linux for video - I would recommand to avoid PCI sound card now, and use USB2 compliant sound card instead: I can work at 3ms of latency without issues with Focusrite, Presonus or Allen & Heath devices, and we can expect to have less with Arturia's Audiofuse (can't wait to test it) unless you have a working pci IF already. There are still new mother boards with working pci slots, mine has three. I don't know about buying a pci card though. I might buy a pcie AI like one of the AudioScience boards if it fit my needs, but USB would give more bang for the buck for sure. To take this one step farther, I think it is reasonable to assume that most Studio users will have a USB AI and default tweaks/setup in that direction. Those with a PCI will likely have some experience setting it up. Your breadth of experience is very helpful. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 18:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: >xfce's appfinder would not give a menu. Does the (pseudo-)menu show all desktop files? Does it ignore entries as e.g. "OnlyShowIn"? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: I have tried putting xfce's menu in there to use but was unable to make is work in a seamless manner. Isn't it possible to add a shortcut? E.g. Alt+F3 to launch xfce4-appfinder? I don't know how long it takes to launch it for the first time, but at least after it run one time, executing it again is as fast as lightning. xfce's appfinder would not give a menu. It is still a search thing. The search function in Unity is not useless. There are situations where it is helpful. Isn't it possible to use lxpanel, fbpanel or any other panel on top of Unity? xfce4-panel will work. but because it is not unity's panel, applications can cover it. If I put it on top of Unity's panel, it ends up under and I don't seem to be able to make unity's panel shorter like a can with xfce4-panel. I have shortened xfce4-panel to leave room for an xfce4-panel running remotely via ssh -Y. It works really well. I ended up with two menu icons beside each other, the left for remote and then the local one beside that. I think I started xfce4-panel on the remote with dbuslaunch so that dbus stuff on the remote just worked. The idea was that the remote was not running x (or a DE) but had the audio IF in it. I haven't had the feeling of a need to do that since I replaced the P4 with an i5. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: >I have tried putting xfce's menu in there to use but was unable to >make is work in a seamless manner. Isn't it possible to add a shortcut? E.g. Alt+F3 to launch xfce4-appfinder? I don't know how long it takes to launch it for the first time, but at least after it run one time, executing it again is as fast as lightning. Isn't it possible to use lxpanel, fbpanel or any other panel on top of Unity? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015, Timo Jyrinki wrote: 2015-09-01 1:15 GMT+03:00 Len Ovens : on all flavours... well maybe not Unity (actually I think I did, but disliked it so much, I gave up), Unity is a beautiful experience and entertaining, but does not make "work" as easy for me. It depends on the user, but for me it has been the most suitable for work. The first reason it gives the biggest amount of screen space to I understand that and that is why I added the "for me". The real coment I have about Unity though, is that it is harder to make audio work as well as with any other DE. It is not impossible for sure, but it is harder. KDE has some known DE issues with some of our (GTK based) audio apps that are "won't fix" at least for now. But KDE does not seem to interfere with audio too much... provided pavucontrol gets used to play with PA and not kmix. Kmix works ok but is missing some functionallity. Studio comes with 4 workspaces and I use them all because I am often working on more than one project. It is not uncommon for me to have as many as ten windows open in any one workspace. I could use editor/terminal tabs, but find it much nicer to be able to directly look from one window to the next without having to find the right tab. I do have dual monitors (and would welcome another) and feel that is a common thing for the workflows we deal with. (a photographer I know was using dual monitors 15 years ago in windows) Without dual monitors I would normally end up with 6 workspaces. the apps which I like, and the second reason is that the Super + 1-9 hotkeys are enough for me to quickly start + switch between key apps dragged to the launcher. Super + F for recent files/file search and DE hotkeys tend to interfere with application hotkeys. This is as true for Ardour in Linux as it is for Protools on another platform. But, it depends, like said. For some/many users it's seen as clunky UI that's mouse driven but meant for touch screens from design perspective. In my opinion that's only the surface. Clunky? no, I don't think so. Hard to make good use of, yes for me it is. The idea that there is no systray or that many applications are prevented from using it does not help either. I have one custom made one I use as well as qjackctl. We also ship some other applications that use the Standard systray. This is functionallity I would miss with unity. Not having a applications menu is the biggest minus. The search based application starting just doesn't work for me. Whatever search term I use always seems to be the wrong one... my brain just doesn't seen to think the way the search engine designer does. WHen I finally do get a screen that includes the app I want, the app is at the bottom of a scroll :P Using the bar on the left is fine, but it does not hold enough apps and again takes longer than a standard menu does to start things. My other problem with loosing the menu is that a menu makes finding an application you don't know about easier. As a new user, I made much use of the menu to find out what applications there were and tried them all out. Unity does not provide this at all... I have tried putting xfce's menu in there to use but was unable to make is work in a seamless manner. If Studio was a one workflow distro, Unity could probably work really well... but so could any other DE. Unity would also need pavucontrol installed if I remember correctly. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
Not everyone has ever used a Windows or MAC workstation, I've done low power radio audio and activist video on Audacity and Kdenlive respectively. I do not have money to buy paid software, nor do I trust closed packages not to phone home with my sensitive raw material. In audio I have added sung tracks to Audacity projects with several other tracks playing, and recorded audio from both internal and external sources using both onboard sound and the old-style $7 soundcards. The latter lacked a front headphone jack but supported internal recording from the output, which requires PA or JACK with current onboard sound due to the board makers taking money from Hollywood. Unless dealing with pulseaudio bugs or a damaged soundcard I was always able to get good enough sound for two tracks. I've never had, not sure I've even SEEN one of those surround sound systems. Not having ever used the paid software does mean I have exactly NO idea what people are saying when they claim it does a better job. OK, some versions of Kdenlive are utterly stable and some are crashy, but the only thing I would really like to see (andf it's coming) is usage of the GPU to let transitions and effects play in full realtime. I've rendered out videos over an hour long with Kdenlive, and also made intensely comples "year in review" videos with literally hundreds of clips, captions made as .png files, the works. If you sat me down in front of a $10K pro workstation to do that video, it would take me longer to learn the interface than the time the GPU would save me, unless the interface worked almost exactly like Kdenlive. On 9/1/2015 at 9:58 AM, "Ralf Mardorf" wrote: > >On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:29:01 +0200, ttoine wrote: >>Ralf, I truly believe that when it will be possible to use a Linux >>distribution without the terminal at all, Linux will become >popular. > >At least for audio Linux can't compare to Mac or Windows. >You need to use the terminal to get an audio tuned Linux and even >then >you should be aware, that you never ever will reach the quality of >a Mac >or Windows workstation. > >I'm a RME card user and the RME card driver for Linux is pure >crap! I >installed Windows and FreeBSD to test my card, to ensure that the >card >isn't broken. > >On my iPad I use a sequencer that in some important features is >better >than Qtractor, Ardour and Co and other than the Linux applications >it's >stable and this is just on a tablet PC. > >IOW if we decide to use Linux, the reason is of philosophically >nature. >Linux for creative work, audio, video, painting and publishing >can't >competed with proprietary, restricted operating systems and >software >programmed with more manpower. > >Even if the software should be able to competed, were is the FLOSS >hardware? Or were are at least good drivers for known hardware. > >The RME PCIe card I bought, recommended by the Linux audio >community, does provide only 2 of 8 ADAT I/Os by jackd, let alone >missing special features and even a complete and current version of >total mix, aka hdspmixer is missing for Linux. > >Linux already was popular, many European offices switched to Linux >and >for good reasons they switched back to Windows. > >Linux comes with pitfalls, faking Windows and Mac abilities isn't >helpful, it's better to get users used to terminal usage, than >providing crappy GUIs, that anyway can't replace the terminal. > >Regards, >Ralf > >-- >ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list >ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 17:51:29 +0200, ttoine wrote: >work with a studio who records 16 adat tracks at a time with Ardour or >Mixbus, on Ubuntu Studio, without any issue, and they love it for the >overall stability. They even dropped Mac OS X from the workflow. They >own a 9652 if my memory is good. Those are very old PCI cards, my dealer sold for peanuts: http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdsp_9652.php http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdsp_9632.php The recommendation from the Linux audio community a few years ago was to get this PCIe card, since PCI was dropped and PCIe should be the future: http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_aio.php This card was very expensive and actually the Linux support for this card didn't change in the last years. It might be the driver or some settings, but only two ADAT channels work. Are all new audio USB audio devices Class Compliant USB devices? Do they provide jitter free MIDI? Do they provide professional grade audio? It doesn't matter for me, since I anyway can't buy and buy new hardware again and again. Even if I would have the money to do so, I dislike the throwaway society approach. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
*Audio:* - I agree that if you are working with midi stuff and virtual instruments, there is not a lot of great stuff at the moment, and it is difficult to have a good performance. - However, I know many sound engineers that are using Mixbus and switched to Ubuntu Studio: for recording and mixing you don't need ultra low latency if the monitoring is external. You need a very stable OS, and we can provide that. - Harrison, one of the most important large format audio console for broadcast and studios, are using Linux as the operating system of their digital consoles and other media systems (Debian based). There choice is not a custom OS nor Windows for embedded systems. - Harrison and Waves based their product (respectively Mixbus and Tracks live) on Ardour, and made it to run on Windows, Mac, and Linux ! Mixbus was even released for Linux before being available for the other OS - Bitwig, a very good alternative to Ableton Live, is designed for Linux, Mac, and Windows - IRCAM, the french famous audio research laboratory, are one of the main contributor to Jackd and are using it mainly with Linux for their installations - once, I met at an event a former engineer at Thales, who developed missiles... and guess what ? they are using Linux RT because this is the faster operating system for I/O and driving. *Video:* - Kdenlive, OpenShot or Pitivi are not usable in a professional environment, for they don't meet the needs and standards. However, I know many people using them to create and edit interviews, documentaries or shorts. - Blender, with Blender Velvets plugins, is used to produce long motion pictures (and animations or effects, also) - Lightworks from Redshark is available for Linux, and is working great (I use it to edit the video tutorials for my company) - Cinelerra is also an interesting project - Just take some time to read what professionals think about Final Cut pro X, and you will see that the industry is looking for serious alternatives, no matter what is the operating system as long as it is possible to access data on a NAS *Hardware*: - Most of Blackmagic hardware work great with Linux for video - I would recommand to avoid PCI sound card now, and use USB2 compliant sound card instead: I can work at 3ms of latency without issues with Focusrite, Presonus or Allen & Heath devices, and we can expect to have less with Arturia's Audiofuse (can't wait to test it) - RME audio sound card miss the most recent mixer, you are right, but I work with a studio who records 16 adat tracks at a time with Ardour or Mixbus, on Ubuntu Studio, without any issue, and they love it for the overall stability. They even dropped Mac OS X from the workflow. They own a 9652 if my memory is good. *Print and graphic:* - I have in my professional content graphic designers who use Open Source software like Scribus and Inkscape to produce beautiful prints, roll'up and communication content - Scribus is the only software at the moment who can generate a fully PDF specs compliant, even Illustrator and InDesign can't - Send a pre-print cmyk pdf created with Scribus to a printing company, and be sure that the guy on the printer will love you ! - most of framework to publish content on the web are open source. Dev I know are still using Photoshop because they don't want to change, but agree that Gimp and Inkscape would fit their need. (This the same for Pro-Tools versus Ardour or Mixbus) I am also a teacher at Lyon, FR, Communication University were they have a "Bachelor in Communication with free software". I am teaching multimedia production with free software. If the students don't need high skills, what they achieve is the same than other in the classic "Bachelor in communication" where Adobe tools are used. And you know why ? because the methodology, the workflow, the preparation, the story/content are the most important. If you do that well, the tool you choose is secondary. And if you are using a different tool, what you do will be different, and seen as more creative (of course if it is good ;-) ) I am a cofounder of Ubuntu Studio, and I don't even know how to build a package... (or I knew it a long time ago). Does that really matter? not at all: when I needed to improve of fix stuff, I just contacted the developers, did the tests with them, helped them by contacting other devs to fix other issues... and eventually, after some months, it worked together. Improvement (features, bug fix, performance) will always come from upstream if we help the developers and if they can see what users really needs. And now with crowdfunding, it is possible to achieve more important ideas, like Pitivi did last year with the help of the Gnome foundation. In conclusion, I can tall that, yes, it is possible to compete with other more common solution in many fields of multimedia production. I just feel that Ubuntu Studio is not anymore the best way to attract users. We need something new, fresh and elegant for curious
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:29:01 +0200, ttoine wrote: >Ralf, I truly believe that when it will be possible to use a Linux >distribution without the terminal at all, Linux will become popular. At least for audio Linux can't compare to Mac or Windows. You need to use the terminal to get an audio tuned Linux and even then you should be aware, that you never ever will reach the quality of a Mac or Windows workstation. I'm a RME card user and the RME card driver for Linux is pure crap! I installed Windows and FreeBSD to test my card, to ensure that the card isn't broken. On my iPad I use a sequencer that in some important features is better than Qtractor, Ardour and Co and other than the Linux applications it's stable and this is just on a tablet PC. IOW if we decide to use Linux, the reason is of philosophically nature. Linux for creative work, audio, video, painting and publishing can't competed with proprietary, restricted operating systems and software programmed with more manpower. Even if the software should be able to competed, were is the FLOSS hardware? Or were are at least good drivers for known hardware. The RME PCIe card I bought, recommended by the Linux audio community, does provide only 2 of 8 ADAT I/Os by jackd, let alone missing special features and even a complete and current version of total mix, aka hdspmixer is missing for Linux. Linux already was popular, many European offices switched to Linux and for good reasons they switched back to Windows. Linux comes with pitfalls, faking Windows and Mac abilities isn't helpful, it's better to get users used to terminal usage, than providing crappy GUIs, that anyway can't replace the terminal. Regards, Ralf -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote: Ralf, I truly believe that when it will be possible to use a Linux distribution without the terminal at all, Linux will become popular. That is why Ubuntu became popular at the beginning (you install, it runs, you work, no tweak) The success today for Canonical is that with Ubuntu, they provide the same environment for devs, tests, servers, cloud, embedded devices, with support and regular updates. But that's another story. At the opposite of dev and sysadmin use, what we need is something simple, that works without having to tune it too much. Just keep in mind that multimedia producers are looking for a system that feet their workflow. They already have a lot to learn, configure and tweak within their own work area. And they are used to GUI: a sound console, a video console, camera buttons, or pots on rack analog effects are GUI. They don't need (and most of them don't care) to learn how to do something in a Terminal... Ask a sound engineer using a Mac or a Win PC if he knows where is terminal: he will most likely tell you he doesn't know what is it. The system must work and be reliable without having to understand how. I hesitate to call such a person an "engineer", Technician might be better or operator. An engineer was the person in the studio who designed/repaired/modified recording equipment. There are still some in big studios and they certainly know what a terminal is and use it. They would be expected to design/repair/modify code (and they do). I am not putting down the person who produces content without being an engineer at all. The computer has made it possible for a much wider group of people, may of them without much technical knowlage, to make music/video/art. I think a person shouldn't have to be an engineer to do music in the same way a train driver shouldn't have to be an engineer to drive a train. Perhaps that is what you are saying and I agree. I agree with you that DE independent applications run faster, are lighter, and easy to use in many DE. However, we are not the developers of multimedia applications : from the beginning, what we do is selecting the better apps available, and make them work together. I agree. And by the way, I totally understand that Pitivi developers, who are relying on the Gstreamer framework, are developing their GUI using Gnome tools: this is simply logical, we can not fight againts that. I am convinced that what our users are waiting for is something simple and intuitive to use. And we need also to explain how to install open source based, and non open source software like Lightworks, Mixbus, and other great applications available on GNU/Linux. Yes. That is the aim. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
Ralf, I truly believe that when it will be possible to use a Linux distribution without the terminal at all, Linux will become popular. That is why Ubuntu became popular at the beginning (you install, it runs, you work, no tweak) The success today for Canonical is that with Ubuntu, they provide the same environment for devs, tests, servers, cloud, embedded devices, with support and regular updates. But that's another story. At the opposite of dev and sysadmin use, what we need is something simple, that works without having to tune it too much. Just keep in mind that multimedia producers are looking for a system that feet their workflow. They already have a lot to learn, configure and tweak within their own work area. And they are used to GUI: a sound console, a video console, camera buttons, or pots on rack analog effects are GUI. They don't need (and most of them don't care) to learn how to do something in a Terminal... Ask a sound engineer using a Mac or a Win PC if he knows where is terminal: he will most likely tell you he doesn't know what is it. The system must work and be reliable without having to understand how. I agree with you that DE independent applications run faster, are lighter, and easy to use in many DE. However, we are not the developers of multimedia applications : from the beginning, what we do is selecting the better apps available, and make them work together. And by the way, I totally understand that Pitivi developers, who are relying on the Gstreamer framework, are developing their GUI using Gnome tools: this is simply logical, we can not fight againts that. I am convinced that what our users are waiting for is something simple and intuitive to use. And we need also to explain how to install open source based, and non open source software like Lightworks, Mixbus, and other great applications available on GNU/Linux. Antoine THOMAS Tél: 0663137906 2015-09-01 12:35 GMT+02:00 Ralf Mardorf : > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:32:40 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: > >However, the real place we could shine is system infra structure. > > Assumed I'll find a place for a blog, I'll give some hints. It's not > only jackd that could cause trouble for newbies. The Debian/Ubuntu > policy is to autostart everything by default that can be autostarted. > > Even while I'm aware about this very evil policy, I was bitten by it a > few day ago and newbies much easier could be bitten by this policy. > > Even the possible minimalist Ubuntu install by default installs the > package command-not-found. A beginner might read a howto, a command is > missing to follow the howto and command-not-found recommends to install > package foo. > > The user installs package foo without using --no-install-recommends. > > The user gets the wanted foo command, but without getting aware of it, > the user also enabled the foo-daemon installed by the same package, in > addition a recommended dependency enables the foo-bar-daemon. > > The Debian/Ubuntu policy is the most worse possible to realise a > multimedia distro that is based on real-time abilities and btw. it's > also bad for portable devices, when energy-saving is important. > > Ironically command-not-found is one of the tons of completely useless > packages for a minimalist install I removed. As a > 10-years-linux-power-user I installed smartmontools to get smartctl, > being aware that there is the autostart policy. I missed that the > package enabled smartd and now it becomes much more ironically. > > To check if any broken software automatically was installed, that could > damage external green drives, I used smartctl. Using smartctl I > noticed that something caused a never ending spin down and spin up loop > for my external green WD drive. Everything known to damage green > drives, such as gvfs was removed, so I needed to searched an > unknown culprit. The winner is smartd. Nothing waked up my green drive, > but the package I installed to check if something wakes up the green > drive. > > Now imagine what happens if inexperienced users install software and > all recommended packages. Easily hundred unneeded init/systemd services > will be enabled and in addition tens or more unneeded desktop crap things > too. The first line of my openbox's autostart file is to clear the > XDG_CONFIG_DIRS variable. > > [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ head -n1 > /mnt/moonstudio/home/weremouse/.config/openbox/autostart > export XDG_CONFIG_DIRS="" > > You might think that this isn't an issue for desktop environments, such as > Xfce4 and Unity, since they provide a GUI to select what should and what > shouldn't run when starting a session. It seemingly is, on the Ubuntu user > list somebody was convinced that some GNOME-keyring-thingy doesn't run, > because he disabled it by such a GUI. I recommended to check with pidof or > ps aux. The thingy still was launched by starting a session. > > Unneeded services are a show-stopper for real-time usage. > > IIUC providing packages by a PPA is done
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tuesday, September 1, 2015, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:48:37 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > >Funny how people are different. I use den, for the same reasons you > >specified above, which probably is on the other end of the scale. > > What is "den"? I neither can find it by the Ubuntu package search, nor > by using different Internet search engines or by searching Arch > packages. I suspect it's a tiling window manager, so unlikely something > most users like. > > > Autocorrect. Dwm. Yes it is a tiling WM, my point was that many use the same reasons for using different WMs. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:48:37 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: >Funny how people are different. I use den, for the same reasons you >specified above, which probably is on the other end of the scale. What is "den"? I neither can find it by the Ubuntu package search, nor by using different Internet search engines or by searching Arch packages. I suspect it's a tiling window manager, so unlikely something most users like. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: Desktop Agnostic
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:09:09 +0300, Timo Jyrinki wrote: >The first reason it gives the biggest amount of screen space to >the apps which I like The limit of screen space is the screen size. Does Unity enlarge your display? IOW auto-hide panels, or don't use panels, disable window decorations, hide menu bars etc. and nearly every DE/WM provides the same. Sure, after I upgraded Xfce4 from upstream the wanted small window title bars became oversized and it's not possible to make them as small as they were. Don't compare Unity with Xfce4, compare it with window managers you can set up to your needs, that don't break themes within dot release upgrades. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:32:40 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: >However, the real place we could shine is system infra structure. Assumed I'll find a place for a blog, I'll give some hints. It's not only jackd that could cause trouble for newbies. The Debian/Ubuntu policy is to autostart everything by default that can be autostarted. Even while I'm aware about this very evil policy, I was bitten by it a few day ago and newbies much easier could be bitten by this policy. Even the possible minimalist Ubuntu install by default installs the package command-not-found. A beginner might read a howto, a command is missing to follow the howto and command-not-found recommends to install package foo. The user installs package foo without using --no-install-recommends. The user gets the wanted foo command, but without getting aware of it, the user also enabled the foo-daemon installed by the same package, in addition a recommended dependency enables the foo-bar-daemon. The Debian/Ubuntu policy is the most worse possible to realise a multimedia distro that is based on real-time abilities and btw. it's also bad for portable devices, when energy-saving is important. Ironically command-not-found is one of the tons of completely useless packages for a minimalist install I removed. As a 10-years-linux-power-user I installed smartmontools to get smartctl, being aware that there is the autostart policy. I missed that the package enabled smartd and now it becomes much more ironically. To check if any broken software automatically was installed, that could damage external green drives, I used smartctl. Using smartctl I noticed that something caused a never ending spin down and spin up loop for my external green WD drive. Everything known to damage green drives, such as gvfs was removed, so I needed to searched an unknown culprit. The winner is smartd. Nothing waked up my green drive, but the package I installed to check if something wakes up the green drive. Now imagine what happens if inexperienced users install software and all recommended packages. Easily hundred unneeded init/systemd services will be enabled and in addition tens or more unneeded desktop crap things too. The first line of my openbox's autostart file is to clear the XDG_CONFIG_DIRS variable. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ head -n1 /mnt/moonstudio/home/weremouse/.config/openbox/autostart export XDG_CONFIG_DIRS="" You might think that this isn't an issue for desktop environments, such as Xfce4 and Unity, since they provide a GUI to select what should and what shouldn't run when starting a session. It seemingly is, on the Ubuntu user list somebody was convinced that some GNOME-keyring-thingy doesn't run, because he disabled it by such a GUI. I recommended to check with pidof or ps aux. The thingy still was launched by starting a session. Unneeded services are a show-stopper for real-time usage. IIUC providing packages by a PPA is done by uploading source packages that follow the Ubuntu policy, there's no way to upload helpful binary packages. I hope there's a free of charge place for a blog, were I can post scripts that build packages for Ubuntu. I know how to build the packages I like to provide, I know how to write scripts that could build this packages for inexperienced users who don't trust my binary packages. I'm not willing to learn how to build Ubuntu packages, it's to time consuming to learn this and it gains nothing. Btw. for good reasons I don't use Xfce4 anymore. A while back Xfce4 became as odd as other DEs. My recommendations are openbox and jwm. I prefer openbox over jwm. Even when using Xfce4 or other DEs I would replace several apps, at least the terminal emulation and the file manager. It's too funny, but a lot of software that starts much faster and performs much better, often provides more features, than apps that belong to a desktop environment. I hope that Ubuntu Studio at least replaces xfce4-terminal with a terminal emulation that at least allows resizing the window. It's ridiculous that a DE allows to resize the window, but without fixing the line wrapping when resizing the window. If by default a good terminal emulation, IOW roxterm, would be provided, than users perhaps would be more willing to use the terminal, instead of GUIs that try to be user-friendly, by providing a GUI for something, that not really can be provided by a GUI. Providing GUIs that try to set up things automagically is the wrong approach. The right approach is to provide good tools. The user should spend time in learning how to set up jackd and other stuff. There should not be the need to learn what software to use and how to use this software. The software should be self-explaining. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep EDITOR /mnt/moonstudio/home/weremouse/.bashrc export EDITOR="nano" How needs vi(m) when e.g. running visudo or editing /etc/security/limits*? Who is able to use vi(m)? Btw. using upstream recommendations for jackd's /etc/security/limits* mi
