Re: New XFCE apps
On Mon, March 4, 2013 12:44 am, ttoine wrote: Len, I use a dual screen with Unity, and the setup is saved accross restart. At loging, the mouse pointer is between the two screens. You can choose which one is the main by moving the move to right or left screen. The top panel is on both screens. Unfortunately it seems to be a part of unity itself. All the bugs are pointed at unity and fixed there. At office, I use a dual screen with a win7 laptop. They are top aligned and it is ok. Maybe could you explain why it is better when bottom aligned ? Top aligned is fine with two screens that are close in size. I guess I am more aware of this because I have a netbook with a (really) small screen. So if the bottom of the two screens is physically aligned but logically top aligned, when I move the mouse from one monitor to the other it jumps 4 inches vertically up or down and may in fact be off the bottom of my netbook screen. It makes it hard to follow with the eye where the mouse pointer is on the screen. It is easiest to top align because there is only one calculation to make. Think that most of the dual screen setups can be done using a restricted driver. I checked different ways, the nVidia is the more complete and easy to use for this purpose. AMD is harder to setup. And of course, Intel depend of the default Unity of Xfce tool, so it is the more limitated. unplugging a monitor and having the main screen left with no menu bar is just broken. This is what happens now. What happens in unity is much better. This is an xfce problem. I will be talking with an xfce dev and see what can be done to fix it. Maybe the good way would be have the possibility to save differents setups, like in network manager. And then, if possible, detect wich one is the good, or let the user choose. First we need to make default do something logical... then it is ok to worry about more than one setup :) -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: New XFCE apps
It would be great to avoid the AandR tool, yes! Antoine THOMAS Tél: 0663137906 2013/3/4 lukefro...@hushmail.com I have found that the GNOME tool for controlling xrandr works fine in gnome-shell, cinnamon, and icewm. In fact, when driver bugs in the xorg-edgers versions of the open source drivers made trouble on the activation of the second monitor, switching to icewm to change monitors, then back, was the workaround. It would seem to me that this tool should work in most DE's. The Arandr tool, by comparison, was a total bugfest when I tried it last year. Is there anything in XFCE preventing the use of the gnome-control-center tool for monitors? On 03/04/2013 at 9:44 AM, Len Ovens l...@ovenwerks.net wrote: On Mon, March 4, 2013 12:44 am, ttoine wrote: Len, I use a dual screen with Unity, and the setup is saved accross restart. At loging, the mouse pointer is between the two screens. You can choose which one is the main by moving the move to right or left screen. The top panel is on both screens. Unfortunately it seems to be a part of unity itself. All the bugs are pointed at unity and fixed there. At office, I use a dual screen with a win7 laptop. They are top aligned and it is ok. Maybe could you explain why it is better when bottom aligned ? Top aligned is fine with two screens that are close in size. I guess I am more aware of this because I have a netbook with a (really) small screen. So if the bottom of the two screens is physically aligned but logically top aligned, when I move the mouse from one monitor to the other it jumps 4 inches vertically up or down and may in fact be off the bottom of my netbook screen. It makes it hard to follow with the eye where the mouse pointer is on the screen. It is easiest to top align because there is only one calculation to make. Think that most of the dual screen setups can be done using a restricted driver. I checked different ways, the nVidia is the more complete and easy to use for this purpose. AMD is harder to setup. And of course, Intel depend of the default Unity of Xfce tool, so it is the more limitated. unplugging a monitor and having the main screen left with no menu bar is just broken. This is what happens now. What happens in unity is much better. This is an xfce problem. I will be talking with an xfce dev and see what can be done to fix it. Maybe the good way would be have the possibility to save differents setups, like in network manager. And then, if possible, detect wich one is the good, or let the user choose. First we need to make default do something logical... then it is ok to worry about more than one setup :) -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: New XFCE apps
On Mon, March 4, 2013 7:29 am, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote: I have found that the GNOME tool for controlling xrandr works fine in gnome-shell, cinnamon, and icewm. In fact, when driver bugs in the xorg-edgers versions of the open source drivers made trouble on the activation of the second monitor, switching to icewm to change monitors, then back, was the workaround. It would seem to me that this tool should work in most DE's. The Arandr tool, by comparison, was a total bugfest when I tried it last year. Aside from not having problems with Arandr (aside from it not saving in a place where xfce could use it to start up with the next time) There are some cases I am not sure GNOME tool can help with. In order for auto-setup at session start to work (this would be the case of setup remaining after reboot), not only do we need the gnome tool to work but we also need gconfd (not sure if the name is exactly right) to be running all the time. xfce has it's own conf daemon running all the time. SO at session startup both tools are trying to start the session. This affects not only monitor setup, but every other session setting there is. So there are then two processes running instead of one, there are two settings managers, there are two sets of config files... and I am not sure which ones would take precedence. A better display setup tool for xfce would be better. Assuming the first thing is not a problem... There are some cases you have not mentioned. These cases happen to be the ones that cause the most support questions on IRC... for me at least. - What happens if you boot at some time with only one monitor? - What happens if you then boot another time with the second monitor again? - want happens if the second monitor is unplugged mid session? - What happens if the second monitor is hot plugged? - What happens the first time a second monitor is plugged in? (either hot or cold) These questions have nothing to do with whatever setup utility (GUI) plays with xrandr or saves it's settings. This is about detecting that the system has changed and using a reasonable setup as default or better yet allowing the user to pre set up both instances. That is, the user says If I only have one monitor I want $this setup and if I have two, I want this $other setup. The DE then switches between them on the fly. Basically, how this works is that the user sets up there system for whatever HW happens to be present. If the HW changes, then the DE saves the setup with a list of HW and looks for another setup that matches the new reality. If it finds one it uses it, if not it uses a reasonable default until the user plays with it. The user might also be able to set some of the defaults so that if a second monitor is plugged in the DE first tries to the right, or superimposed. But if a setting has been saved with $x model monitor, then it sets up to the right, bottom aligned. This is so the person who uses their laptop at home with a second monitor can have it to the right of their lap top, but if they use it to do a presentation with a projector, that projector works superimposed or on top. The idea that the user should have to fiddle each time they make changes like that, which might be daily depending on use, the user has to reset things up or make do. dbus seems the best way to deal with this as I think it can be setup to send a signal to a service on file creation (a new monitor should create a device file) or maybe some other kind of event. (i still need to find out how it can be detected the best) even better, if the service dbus wants to send something to isn't running, it starts it... so the service can make whatever changes and exit so it doesn't run all the time. While the unity setup does come with reasonable (not the best IMO) defaults, it fails the changing HW scenario as far as I can tell. -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: New XFCE apps
I boot with both monitors attached, only one running in X. Can turn on second as needed for video editing, all savings in the GNOME tool are saved across all reboots. Even when turning second monitor on, the defaults are what I last used. Installation default is cloned, so I know my setup and alignment are being preserved without issues. On 03/04/2013 at 8:28 PM, Len Ovens l...@ovenwerks.net wrote: On Mon, March 4, 2013 7:29 am, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote: I have found that the GNOME tool for controlling xrandr works fine in gnome-shell, cinnamon, and icewm. In fact, when driver bugs in the xorg-edgers versions of the open source drivers made trouble on the activation of the second monitor, switching to icewm to change monitors, then back, was the workaround. It would seem to me that this tool should work in most DE's. The Arandr tool, by comparison, was a total bugfest when I tried it last year. Aside from not having problems with Arandr (aside from it not saving in a place where xfce could use it to start up with the next time) There are some cases I am not sure GNOME tool can help with. In order for auto-setup at session start to work (this would be the case of setup remaining after reboot), not only do we need the gnome tool to work but we also need gconfd (not sure if the name is exactly right) to be running all the time. xfce has it's own conf daemon running all the time. SO at session startup both tools are trying to start the session. This affects not only monitor setup, but every other session setting there is. So there are then two processes running instead of one, there are two settings managers, there are two sets of config files... and I am not sure which ones would take precedence. A better display setup tool for xfce would be better. Assuming the first thing is not a problem... There are some cases you have not mentioned. These cases happen to be the ones that cause the most support questions on IRC... for me at least. - What happens if you boot at some time with only one monitor? - What happens if you then boot another time with the second monitor again? - want happens if the second monitor is unplugged mid session? - What happens if the second monitor is hot plugged? - What happens the first time a second monitor is plugged in? (either hot or cold) These questions have nothing to do with whatever setup utility (GUI) plays with xrandr or saves it's settings. This is about detecting that the system has changed and using a reasonable setup as default or better yet allowing the user to pre set up both instances. That is, the user says If I only have one monitor I want $this setup and if I have two, I want this $other setup. The DE then switches between them on the fly. Basically, how this works is that the user sets up there system for whatever HW happens to be present. If the HW changes, then the DE saves the setup with a list of HW and looks for another setup that matches the new reality. If it finds one it uses it, if not it uses a reasonable default until the user plays with it. The user might also be able to set some of the defaults so that if a second monitor is plugged in the DE first tries to the right, or superimposed. But if a setting has been saved with $x model monitor, then it sets up to the right, bottom aligned. This is so the person who uses their laptop at home with a second monitor can have it to the right of their lap top, but if they use it to do a presentation with a projector, that projector works superimposed or on top. The idea that the user should have to fiddle each time they make changes like that, which might be daily depending on use, the user has to reset things up or make do. dbus seems the best way to deal with this as I think it can be setup to send a signal to a service on file creation (a new monitor should create a device file) or maybe some other kind of event. (i still need to find out how it can be detected the best) even better, if the service dbus wants to send something to isn't running, it starts it... so the service can make whatever changes and exit so it doesn't run all the time. While the unity setup does come with reasonable (not the best IMO) defaults, it fails the changing HW scenario as far as I can tell. -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: New XFCE apps
On Mon, March 4, 2013 5:44 pm, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote: I boot with both monitors attached, only one running in X. Can turn on second as needed for video editing, all savings in the GNOME tool are saved across all reboots. Even when turning second monitor on, the defaults are what I last used. Installation default is cloned, so I know my setup and alignment are being preserved without issues. How about unplugged? My external VGA on my netbook feels there is an external monitor even when just terminating the green channel (it's the only way I can boot :P ). Just powering a monitor off is not the same thing as unplugging. Though I am pretty sure it does create some difference... but not the same as no monitor. - composite video out - terminated = 75ohm (though shorted works too) - VGA - terminated means green channel has 75 ohms (shorted works too) - most analog formats are like that - digital... IDK I did a lot of testing on dual monitor stuff with an unpowered but terminated video out. So for me to test these things I need to know what live ISO can I try things on? -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: New XFCE apps
Saves across unplugging/hotplugging too. Only requirement is this: Same monitors plugged into same jacks each time, on same make of video card. If you reverse which one is on VGA and which one is on DVI (analog by adaptor) you are back to superimposed. Same for switching from ATI to Nvidia(nouveau) or back. The only reason I don't hotplug is that it's a nuisance to do so with my hardware installation layout. Booting with only one keeps Plymouth from flickering as the user desktop comes up (autologin after booting an encrypted OS). You could test this on any usable OS with gnome-shell or Cinnamon, which both have this tool. Cinnamon simply uses a port of gnome-shell's panel applet, which calls the gnome-control-center xrandr tool. I think there is an Ubuntu gnome-shell remix by now, there is a Mint/Cinnamon live disk, and Fedora ships with gnome-shell. Grab whatever is convenient, try it with your hardware. It would be good to find out if this is hardware specific before anyone commits to anything. On 03/04/2013 at 9:06 PM, Len Ovens l...@ovenwerks.net wrote: On Mon, March 4, 2013 5:44 pm, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote: I boot with both monitors attached, only one running in X. Can turn on second as needed for video editing, all savings in the GNOME tool are saved across all reboots. Even when turning second monitor on, the defaults are what I last used. Installation default is cloned, so I know my setup and alignment are being preserved without issues. How about unplugged? My external VGA on my netbook feels there is an external monitor even when just terminating the green channel (it's the only way I can boot :P ). Just powering a monitor off is not the same thing as unplugging. Though I am pretty sure it does create some difference... but not the same as no monitor. - composite video out - terminated = 75ohm (though shorted works too) - VGA - terminated means green channel has 75 ohms (shorted works too) - most analog formats are like that - digital... IDK I did a lot of testing on dual monitor stuff with an unpowered but terminated video out. So for me to test these things I need to know what live ISO can I try things on? -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel -- Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
