Re: Jaunty RT kernel and NVidia drivers
Fabien Juchniewicz wrote: > Hello, > > I can't install the NVidia v180 driver on my Jaunty 64 bits test machine with > the 2.6.28-3 RT kernel. If I use the Kubuntu hardware manager, it breaks xorg > : I have to reconfigure. > > Is there a way with dkms ? > Make sure you have the header packages installed. -Cory K. -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Jaunty RT kernel and NVidia drivers
Hello, I can't install the NVidia v180 driver on my Jaunty 64 bits test machine with the 2.6.28-3 RT kernel. If I use the Kubuntu hardware manager, it breaks xorg : I have to reconfigure. Is there a way with dkms ? Thanx, /Fabien -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
Hmm... Lot's of stuff to address. I'll attempt to be clear and concise. And try not to get too hung up on the stuff below as this thread about what you guys want Studios future to be. Not to dwell on it's past. Some technical stuff: Ubuntu Studio (<-official way it /should/ be written) *is* a "multimedia creation" distro. *Not* specifically a /audio/ distro. This will account for the *non-mandatory* inclusion (we don't really /have/ to take it from Ubuntu. though it gets harder not to because of depends) of PulseAudio. Which /should/ automagically get suspended when JACK is turned on. There was a time right near the projects start where we had a call for what audio apps users wanted. It put us over a 700MB CD size so the expanded focus only made sense considering one had to burn a DVD anyway. Stability vs. bleeding edge. These are often considered opposing forces. They are not. New versions often fix bugs but just as often bring new ones. So is the cycle. Part of the problem is that the process of getting very new packages in the repo for all to use (a main edict of the project) is a heavily bureaucratic one. Very often the technical part is the easiest. It would have been easier to have a separate repo from the start (even easier now with PPAs) but this means everyone doesn't benefit from our work. So in trying to get the work for all we *have* to to either file for SRUs (stable release updates - they go right in the archive and usually need *damn good* reason) or go for Backports (new versions pulled from the development release and put into the previous release. eg: Jaunty->Intrepid) It's alot of crap to work through. I've thought "Damn. We should just use a PPA. Make our own updates. Get away from this mess." but then a chunk of people don't benefit like I said above. There's many pro/Cons any way you slice and it will be up to future leadership to decide. Getting involved and the difference you can make. Think about this. I knew *zero* about how to get this done. I had a understanding about the Debian system worked (packages, dependencies, metas and such) but that was about it. Pretty much linux user stuff. (which I say time and time again Linux audio is not for the new-to-linux user. just my opinion) But, I wanted to make it happen. So I did. After getting together with a guy named Dana (who within 2 weeks left) the project was off and running. I guess I have a knack for project management because I've made this all happen and seem to continue to be it's glue. (shrug) I learned what was needed and maybe most important found the right, like-minded, amazing people to work with. Point is, you guys have no clue how simply having the will (having the time is a plus as well) can make a huge impact in this project. *Everyone* can do *something*. Even if it's the most simple of tasks like burning/installing a development release and reporting that to the testing tracker. And there's documentation. (a call put out multiple times) I'm sure *tons* of us have learned how to do something that someone else can use. Write it up on the wiki. :) And a related note: Acceptance to the development team is granted when one needs access to out BZR work. To "develop" things for Studio it's not a must to be on the team. We don't feel it proper to just accept anyone for bragging rights either. It's for very specific reasons. Ubuntu Studio is here. It's a reality but needs it's community to be less passive to continue. We've built it, you've come, but what's it worth to you? What do *you* want Ubuntu Studio to be? Would be a shame to see the project that carries the powerful Ubuntu name slip into the dark. As I've said, *these* are the very important questions of the moment. Hope some of that made sense. -Cory K. PS: The 64Studio guys and us are much closer than you guys know. ;) -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path
I only recently subscribed to this list and have been reading this thread with interest. I'm a working musician with just enough geek in me to get into trouble. Linux has been my sole operating system for around 6 years now. And frankly, I love it. It's as much a part of me as the clothes I wear. I do all my arranging, composing, and a small amount of recording on Linux. Over the years, I've tried out the various audio distros, and continue to check out the latest offerings as they develop. I bought Studio to Go when it was at version 2.0 and was sorry to see the folding of Fervent Software. I attempted to try out 64 Studio but had a bios issue that was later resolved by the chip maker. JAD seemed promising but updated information was sporadic and their ability to influence the direction of SuSE seemed lacking. Ubuntu Studio, bolstered by regular releases, a level of quality not previously seen, and with such integration with the main project seemed a sure success. Seeing 8.10 come out with no RT kernel was such a disappointment. I understand that accomplishing something like a RT kernel involves the cooperation of many people, all of whom have their own goals and a limited amount of time and energy to devote. So I took it in stride and just hoped for the best this time around. I hopped onto Jaunty at Alpha 4, with vanilla ubuntu at home and studio at work. So far, things look promising. And the RT kernel works quite well for me. And tonight, while composing this post, I bumped the mouse on my wacom tablet, and lo and behold it finally works again! After a quick config in Gimp, I've once again got one of my favorite tools back. And I guess that's how I view Linux. I have to be willing to learn, to research, to devote maybe an hour of tinkering and learning to every 10 hours of creative work. I have to do my part and in return, people that I will probably never ever meet or know will do their part and it will all come together. I do so appreciate the work of the people who have made Ubuntu Studio a reality. And also the efforts of those who stopped by briefly to offer assistance. Like so many users, I have no coding skills and already live at the brink of my abilities doing things like compiling a few pet programs to meet my needs. Personally, I don't think audio or artistically derived distros will ever be mainstream. Just like artists aren't mainstream. But what I think can be heard throughout the posts I've seen so far is that it isn't so important whether one uses jack or pulse or prefers a minimal install to the kitchen sink. The key seems to be allowing the user as much choice as possible. The choice to kick Pulse audio to the curb (my preferred method) or to try out the latest unstable version of their favorite pet package. And to do so in as easy a manner as possible, preferably at install, with the option to make later changes. The biggest obstacle for me regarding Linux and audio is something that I'd be willing to try and put some time and effort into, if that would help. That obstacle is the apparent lack of documentation for so many packages. For all the years I've worked with Linux, I've still never seen a comprehensive explanation of the options in Jack. There are a number of applications that are either undocumented or lacking up-to-date information. But I won't try to get specific here. Suffice it to say that the learning curve is just too steep. If I was coming in fresh today, I doubt I'd have the drive to stick with it. So I'd be happy to try and help with documentation. As for the crossroads you face: what to do next? The only thing I can suggest is to set boundaries and don't take on more than is good for you. If other developers don't throw in their efforts, then so be it. We will all lose out. But no one person, or even a small core group can be responsible for the continuing success of such a big project. It has already been a success and set a new standard. Perhaps it is time for those of us who have enjoyed the fruits to pitch in and take things to the next level. And if it doesn't get there, it's okay. That's Linux. Congratulations on a job well done.! -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
"With Jaunty's impending release, the dev team has given thought to Karmic and the projects future. I will attempt to form cohesive thoughts for us all to consider. :) " I'm a bit wordy here, so skim as you like. First, why I'm here... Audio. That's it for me. If I have to run a dual boot to do text, internet, graphics, no problem. Video may cross over, because as others have noted, more and more audio projects have to sync with video. It may not be easy to separate these. I think Gimp will run on anything though, so at that point, you already have probably the most popular graphic tool on Linux, probably a non-issue. Which puts us back at "Multimedia". But I don't need Open Office or skype, etc. Browser and Internet would be nice as an option though, for viewing help and other docs. No games though. I can do that on another boot to standard Ubuntu just fine, if I need to veg out on a game. Cory's frustration is clear, understood and acknowledged by most or all on this list I think. As mainly a lurker here so far and newcomer to Ubuntu Studio with early 8.4, please pardon my ignorance if I make some errors and foolish assumptions in the following. I think a good portion of the disappointment for all was the absence of a realtime kernel for 8.10. Early in the 8.10 cycle, I recall reading the discussions about even spending effort on 8.10 US for that reason, and here we are at the other end now. But the main disappointment for the heavy lifters here has to be the lack of co-contributors. As others here have stated, I'm not a programmer either and a lot of the dialog often reads like voodoo spells, despite being a tekie. I am tech savvy and can be taught. I don't like being treated like an idiot either when I ask questions and go elsewhere when taunted, but I'm still here so I must not have been too abused yet. Accepting Cory's challenge, I just signed up with the developers groupI would love to learn more about Linux, testing and creating builds, programming, etc. I too have a day job, technical writing coincidentally. I would be glad to work documenting UbuStu or the main Ubuntu in any way that would help, as my schedule permits. With 15 years technical documentation experience, most in software documentation for network communications on Unix/Linux based network routers and appliances, I think I can rate what I use and read with some authority. From a user perspective, the Ubuntu documentation looks nice, but adds little value as is. The reason anyone goes to the documentation is to solve problems, no one reads it for fun. When I get to the page on configuring the Wifi or sound device and it says go to this menu, set this field, that's great - but it seldom fixed my problem. The real helpful information has been in the forums. The online help is very generic, telling users what the software is supposed to do, usually a screenshot with text mimicking the software and not providing additional information like troubleshooting or where else to look. In other words, it's very light. This is not a critique of the generous work done so far, only to state that more information would help many users. This applies doubly for UbuStu, which needs extra attention because of the more complex configurations, we usually have better or high-end soundcards, etc. In my case, I spent a whole lot of time just trying to get 8.10 to run on my HP tx2510us with Wacom touchscreen. I want to use the touchscreen with my finger to control mixer sliders and softsynth controls in real time for example. I paid a lot more for a touchscreen and I really want it to work, which it has not yet consistently in 8.10. Through the forums, I found out about two weeks ago that Suse 11.1 supports my hardware, I installed it and it worked instantly, no xconf workouts etc. Getting audio apps to work in Suse looks like another challenge though. Seems like some good knowledge is at Suse and other distros that could be ported to Ubuntu if someone knew how. This is probably typical Linux frustration though. Anyway, I spent months trying to get UbuStu to do what Suse did straight off. That is worked at all was thanks to some other generous Ubuntu User group members, experimentation and sharing knowledge, etc. I had my HP tx2510us working well with 8.10 on several ocasions, only to have it stop after updating the OS, kernel, or other component. Very frustrating. I'm going to burn the 9.04 Ubuntu Studio DVD and go for it though. Count me in. I feel like I owe UbuStu some effort and time. It was the first Linux that I could easily install at home and in my music studio. I have this nagging and selfish demand that it work on my hardware though. I can't do much with it otherwise. I also want to spend some hours each week making and playing music and away from troublshooting my Linux installation. I can donate at least a few hours a week, but I need to know how to get started and where
Re: Forging a new path.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 alex stone wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Gustin Johnson > wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 >> >> alex stone wrote: >>> Eric, i respect and appreciate the points you've made. >>> >>> I have to disagree for a) the fact that pulseaudio is mandatory, >>> and it's a pain to take it out, or even get it working with >>> jack, and b) >> sudo update-rc.d -f pulseaudio remove >> >> This keeps pulseaudio installed by prevents it from starting >> automatically. As a short term workaround it does not get any >> easier. > > So why does it need to be compulsory as an install? would be simpler > to make it optional, in an Audio based distro. > This distro uses Ubuntu as a base. Ubuntu makes pulse a dependency. Sucks to be us. This is what the discussion about deviating too far from a stock Ubuntu is about. The choices made here have consequences. I for one am glad that no one is rushing in to this. > >> Most of the people I know do not use the phrase "state of the art", >> instead "bleeding edge" is much more common, and for good reason. >> As it is I find that Ubuntu is pretty aggressive with bringing in >> new versions of software. I am not sure that becoming another >> Debian Unstable or Experimental is in anyone's best interest. > > And you may have missed my note that mentioned stability, as a > natural proviso. I wasn't talking about bleeding edge, but as modern > a stable version as is possible. There's a difference. > > Yes, as modern and as stable as possible. I do not see how that is not the current state of things? The largest problem as I see it, is the lack of packagers to bring newer versions in to the fold. >> IMO, stable should have more importance than being up to date. > > See above. > > >> Pulse is not a replacement for jack. pulse has a different >> objective than jack. > > Is that objective complementary to an audio based distro? > As I understood it, Ubuntu Studio was a media centred distro, jack is not appropriate for all work loads. I would not be surprised to find out that this is one of the issues that prompted Cory to ask the question about the *purpose* of Ubuntu Studio. >> This is actually a reasonably complex issue. I understand that >> this has caused some frustration for you, but instead of just >> complaining, you could research the problem and be part of the >> solution instead of just complaining. > > Doesn't cause me frustration, because a) i pulled it out, and b) i > switched distros to one that wasn't compulsory. 64Studio 3.0 (beta > 3), and c) i have no fear at trying new things, including summary > solutions. And at the time it appeared, i asked the same question > then, and was fairly abruptly dismissed out of hand, because the > "decision had already been made for mainstream Ubuntu." > > The people i've tried to help have a problem with it though, and ask > the same question i did. Why is it there? > Because Ubuntu has it, we currently have it. > >> This is an upstream dependency, removing it has its own share of >> issues. > > and so any intent to remove the app drags a shedload of dependencies > with it, messing up what may well have been a good install otherwise. > > > My point is that it has to be done right. Just yanking it out is hard. I don't like it or use it, but I understand why it is hard to remove from the Ubuntu Studio devs perspective. > >> jack and pulse are used differently. > > Correct. So why put a server for domestic consumption in an audio > distro by default, and leave the, erm, audio server as optional? > > >> It depends. Everyone has their own perspective, and saying that >> audio is a mess does not really accurately give a picture of the >> problem. All those posts have a particular axe to grind, and 80% >> of them are just wrong to begin with. There is a lot of room for >> improvement, and thus there is ample opportunity for you to help >> out. > > I have, and continue to do so with users who ask questions that i may > know the answer to, or need some assistance with setting up their > install to work. See the previous post for alternative definition of > what may constitute "A contribution.". > > > >> There is no magic bullet solution here, so stop looking for one. > > Frankly, that doesn't mean anything. Whether you think my view is > valid or not is up to you, but it may well be a valid perspective, > and natural questions to ask, for others. That's up to them. > You keep going on about pulseaudio. This is only one piece in a larger puzzle. I would encourage you to dig deeper, you obviously care about open source and in particular open source creative tools. I hope that you can find a productive means of contribution. The main areas as I see it are 1) doing the work, 2) documenting the work, 3) testing the completed work, and 4) paying someone else to do the work. There may be more, t
Re: Forging a new path.
Ah, a long discussion. Just to cut it short: - Skype : some people just need it. I use it extensively with my Ubuntu Studio for my podcasts. - Other apps: I'm not making any money out of music, I use Ubuntu Studio because it's the best of the multi-purpose distributions designed with audio/graphics in mind. I can compile C code, write Java and do recording in the evenings w/o a single reboot and I really like it that way. - Geared for audio only: I hope not. There are plenty of distributions for that. I installed Musix 2.0 alpha today and it worked out of the box. Kudos to them. I would prefer my experience with Jaunty Studio will be the same (so far so good with the betas minus KDE 4(VIA chipset bug already open and confirmed but not fixed yet - (un) fortunately it works with Jaunty + Gnome (yikes!). - Pulseaudio vs. Jack : I'd prefer jack to be the default but hey, that's life. What I'd prefer is more stuff compiled with Jack support out of the box. I really got used to having loads of stuff compiled with Jack support on PlanetCCRMA, switching to bog-standard 7.04 was a bit of a rude suprise. It's getting better since then but I still compile most of my own stuff to catch up or have more libraries compiled in. /usr/local here is getting a bit crowded on my main audio lappie. - Longer release cycles following LTS : It's good on paper but not really, sorry. I compiled Rackarrak on my 8.04 studio laptop today because it's too new to exist on that one. It's brilliant and works wonderfully but I am definitely not a newbie and not a regular user either (having used Linux for too long helps). Especially Linux Audio software is advancing at a very rapid pace, I wouldn't like to reinstall/upgrade my laptops every 3 months but years between dedicated audio/video software would be a bit too much to bear (I don't have the same with my LTS web server, Apache + PHP don't advance as they used to). - Special Distribution: Well, lately I prefer installing Kubuntu and then pulling all of the ubuntustudio metapackages to get the studio stuff. If I was installing this lot in a dedicated studio environment I'd probably do it from the DVD. I hope creating the dedicated environment doesn't take that much of the efforts. Thinking about the average Ubuntu studio users (I'd guess it's not the majority of this mailing list) I would guess most of the Ubuntu Studio users are people who do audio or graphics on the side therefore won't really want just the audio stuff. On the other hand, having the special distributions work like marketing. I installed it on a couple of friends and they're quite happy (I have to admit I tend not to enable the realtime kernels on their Grubs). - Help: well, I run the Ubuntu Studio packages from alpha releases, I hope that counts. :) All I wanted to say is what you do is not necessarily what everyone else does. If we can't find what we need as users, we can just switch distributions, move on to something more suitable for us. There are plenty of choices, PlanetCCRMA used to be my previous choice of DAW, since then there are plenty more arriving to the scene. IMHO, what puts Ubuntu Studio aside is its resiliency, multi-purpose attitude: with minimal amount of work, it becomes an excellent distribution to be used for everything. Not perfect but still I think it's the best out there for what it can do. I would like to prefer to have it that way. Hmm, what else.. Ah yes... Good work! Keep on doing the good stuff. (Written on a Jaunty i386 laptop with Studio stuff loaded up and it works, (apart from KDE, pls, don't get me started... :) )) -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Gustin Johnson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > alex stone wrote: >> Eric, i respect and appreciate the points you've made. >> >> I have to disagree for a) the fact that pulseaudio is mandatory, and >> it's a pain to take it out, or even get it working with jack, and b) > > sudo update-rc.d -f pulseaudio remove > > This keeps pulseaudio installed by prevents it from starting > automatically. As a short term workaround it does not get any easier. So why does it need to be compulsory as an install? would be simpler to make it optional, in an Audio based distro. > Most of the people I know do not use the phrase "state of the art", > instead "bleeding edge" is much more common, and for good reason. As it > is I find that Ubuntu is pretty aggressive with bringing in new versions > of software. I am not sure that becoming another Debian Unstable or > Experimental is in anyone's best interest. And you may have missed my note that mentioned stability, as a natural proviso. I wasn't talking about bleeding edge, but as modern a stable version as is possible. There's a difference. > IMO, stable should have more importance than being up to date. See above. > Pulse is not a replacement for jack. pulse has a different objective > than jack. Is that objective complementary to an audio based distro? > This is actually a reasonably complex issue. I understand that this has > caused some frustration for you, but instead of just complaining, you > could research the problem and be part of the solution instead of just > complaining. Doesn't cause me frustration, because a) i pulled it out, and b) i switched distros to one that wasn't compulsory. 64Studio 3.0 (beta 3), and c) i have no fear at trying new things, including summary solutions. And at the time it appeared, i asked the same question then, and was fairly abruptly dismissed out of hand, because the "decision had already been made for mainstream Ubuntu." The people i've tried to help have a problem with it though, and ask the same question i did. Why is it there? > This is an upstream dependency, removing it has its own share of issues. and so any intent to remove the app drags a shedload of dependencies with it, messing up what may well have been a good install otherwise. > jack and pulse are used differently. Correct. So why put a server for domestic consumption in an audio distro by default, and leave the, erm, audio server as optional? > It depends. Everyone has their own perspective, and saying that audio > is a mess does not really accurately give a picture of the problem. All > those posts have a particular axe to grind, and 80% of them are just > wrong to begin with. There is a lot of room for improvement, and thus > there is ample opportunity for you to help out. I have, and continue to do so with users who ask questions that i may know the answer to, or need some assistance with setting up their install to work. See the previous post for alternative definition of what may constitute "A contribution.". > There is no magic bullet solution here, so stop looking for one. Frankly, that doesn't mean anything. Whether you think my view is valid or not is up to you, but it may well be a valid perspective, and natural questions to ask, for others. That's up to them. > This is what Cory was talking about. There are people who just bitch > and moan but do absolutely nothing about it. I'm not bitching and moaning at all. I'm asking questions, and suggesting a fresh view might be fruitful for all, including giving the devs a chance to breathe. And frankly you're talking nonsense with an assumption that anyone who 'questions the path' is by default someone who doesn't contribute, and just bitches and moans. It's somewhat ironic that questions, and alternate perspectives, are autocratically dismissed as complaining when they differ from the status quo, yet you ask for help, expecting no alternate view. Not exactly the 'community' spirit you're expecting of others is it? This may sound hard and > callous, but I do not care about Johny Air Guitar. If he takes no > action or initiative, why should I *give* him my time to fix his > problems for him. I understand that we all started somewhere, and at > some point someone helped us. I like helping people, but most people > here are donating their time, and if Johny Air Guitar wants people to > fix his problems for free without doing a single thing himself, then we > are all better of if he goes elsewhere. That's your view for one type of user, and JAG may have been a poor analogy on my part. If however a new user, keen to try, but lacking 'linux syntax' just can't get the knack of getting everything working together because they might think in a different way, gets frustrated, because they're simply "expected to know", then a potential contributor goes away. Not all users are deadbeats, but they may just not be able to get
Re: Forging a new path.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 alex stone wrote: > Eric, i respect and appreciate the points you've made. > > I have to disagree for a) the fact that pulseaudio is mandatory, and > it's a pain to take it out, or even get it working with jack, and b) sudo update-rc.d -f pulseaudio remove This keeps pulseaudio installed by prevents it from starting automatically. As a short term workaround it does not get any easier. > keeping ubuntustudio as close to the mainstream as possible. > > In response: > > a) Why isn't pulse audio optional, instead of compulsory, and > That is made compulsory upstream, by the default Ubuntu > b) there's been a lot of development and updates in audio apps and > utilities in the last twelve months. (libsndfile to version 19, just > for one example). > If UBS is to follow the mainstream as closely as possible, then all > our essential audio utilities will, by the nature of going with the > flow for the greater good will have an additional layer of proviso > keeping in line with the rest, which may 'restrict' the opportunity to > include state of the art versions with the intent of "as up to date > as possible" within the bounds of stability . > Most of the people I know do not use the phrase "state of the art", instead "bleeding edge" is much more common, and for good reason. As it is I find that Ubuntu is pretty aggressive with bringing in new versions of software. I am not sure that becoming another Debian Unstable or Experimental is in anyone's best interest. > As much as anything else we've mentioned, it surely makes sense to go > modern/still stable when undertaking such a task. > IMO, stable should have more importance than being up to date. > And i say this respectfully to you. > > Why does pulseaudio, which is basically a server to run domestic apps, > get compulsory precedent over jack in an audio based distro? > Pulse is not a replacement for jack. pulse has a different objective than jack. > I'm still curious as to why this happened, and why jack users, which > we can fairly bet in an audio distro environment will be the majority > of users, are the ones who have to go through the pain and hassle of > eradicating an unwanted domestic server from a distro based on > audio/musicmaking usage? This is actually a reasonably complex issue. I understand that this has caused some frustration for you, but instead of just complaining, you could research the problem and be part of the solution instead of just complaining. > > If the intent of the Ubuntustudio project is to cater to predominately > domestic music making (and no offence intended here at all), then so > be it. I have no hassle with that, and will use and/or build something > else. (Which i've done directly as a result of the pulseaudio > compulsory inclusion, and the subsequent debris left behind when i > removed it, including the compulsory dependencies.) > > But if the intent is to cater to those who are enthusiastic about > producing music at a more serious level (and i do soundtrack work from > time to time, like you) in addition to the enthusiasts, then it seems > the addition of a domestic server as compulsory, before a professional > server (and i use these terms for highlighting the difference only) is > shooting one's self in the digital foot. > > There's already been comments here lauding the virtues of lean and > mean, and i don't see how handicapping that with an additional layer > of unwanted sound server actually helps. > This is an upstream dependency, removing it has its own share of issues. > So while i appreciate your position as a perspective for enthusiasts, > (again no offence) maybe the mission statement for UBstudio is more as > a leg into music making in Linux, rather than a potentially serious > studio based profile. If that's incorrect, and not the intent, then i > respectfully suggest my original point holds true. > > Jack as a 'default' server from install, and pulse as the optional extra. > jack and pulse are used differently. > I've read so much stuff in the nearly 2 years i've been using linux > about how the linux sound system in general is a mess, it's confusing, > and hard to setup, and how tough it is to get a decent rig going. It depends. Everyone has their own perspective, and saying that audio is a mess does not really accurately give a picture of the problem. All those posts have a particular axe to grind, and 80% of them are just wrong to begin with. There is a lot of room for improvement, and thus there is ample opportunity for you to help out. > > I don't think that's true when we stick to basics, and at least share > the same room when singing from the hymn sheet. > There is no magic bullet solution here, so stop looking for one. > We can be as pompous as we like about the virtues of using linux and > the opportunities it provides, but frankly, if Johnny Air Guitar can't > a) hear something when he pretends to swing the axe, an
Sequencer to control MIDI drum machine?
Can anyone suggest which sequencer I should use to control my Alesis SR-16 drum machine? It's plugged into the MIDI IN/OUT of my Echoaudio Audiofire-12. I've been trying to get Muse to work but its documentation is incomplete with regard to controlling external devices. I think my confusion lays with how to configure the patch in qjackctl. Essentially I just want a piano-roll type interface to program drum patterns to use as scratch tracks when I'm recording guitar/bass solo. Hydrogen is appealing but it crashes whenever I try to configure it for use with Jack. My MIDI tab in jack patch shows SYSTEM: MC12_dev0_Unknown11 -> MP12_dev0_Unknown11 The ALSA tab in jack patch shows 14:Midi Through: 0:Midi Through Port-0 -> 0:Midi Through Port-0 When I start Muse, the ALSA tab includes 129:MusE Sequencer: 0:MusE Port 0 -> 0:MusE Port 0 Unfortunately I'm not as versed in the syntax and terminology of MIDI as I am in general audio recording so I'm not sure what everything is referring to. I have a USB-MIDI adapter handy if using the AF12 is unsupported. TIA! -Scott -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
Eric, i respect and appreciate the points you've made. I have to disagree for a) the fact that pulseaudio is mandatory, and it's a pain to take it out, or even get it working with jack, and b) keeping ubuntustudio as close to the mainstream as possible. In response: a) Why isn't pulse audio optional, instead of compulsory, and b) there's been a lot of development and updates in audio apps and utilities in the last twelve months. (libsndfile to version 19, just for one example). If UBS is to follow the mainstream as closely as possible, then all our essential audio utilities will, by the nature of going with the flow for the greater good will have an additional layer of proviso keeping in line with the rest, which may 'restrict' the opportunity to include state of the art versions with the intent of "as up to date as possible" within the bounds of stability . As much as anything else we've mentioned, it surely makes sense to go modern/still stable when undertaking such a task. And i say this respectfully to you. Why does pulseaudio, which is basically a server to run domestic apps, get compulsory precedent over jack in an audio based distro? I'm still curious as to why this happened, and why jack users, which we can fairly bet in an audio distro environment will be the majority of users, are the ones who have to go through the pain and hassle of eradicating an unwanted domestic server from a distro based on audio/musicmaking usage? If the intent of the Ubuntustudio project is to cater to predominately domestic music making (and no offence intended here at all), then so be it. I have no hassle with that, and will use and/or build something else. (Which i've done directly as a result of the pulseaudio compulsory inclusion, and the subsequent debris left behind when i removed it, including the compulsory dependencies.) But if the intent is to cater to those who are enthusiastic about producing music at a more serious level (and i do soundtrack work from time to time, like you) in addition to the enthusiasts, then it seems the addition of a domestic server as compulsory, before a professional server (and i use these terms for highlighting the difference only) is shooting one's self in the digital foot. There's already been comments here lauding the virtues of lean and mean, and i don't see how handicapping that with an additional layer of unwanted sound server actually helps. So while i appreciate your position as a perspective for enthusiasts, (again no offence) maybe the mission statement for UBstudio is more as a leg into music making in Linux, rather than a potentially serious studio based profile. If that's incorrect, and not the intent, then i respectfully suggest my original point holds true. Jack as a 'default' server from install, and pulse as the optional extra. I've read so much stuff in the nearly 2 years i've been using linux about how the linux sound system in general is a mess, it's confusing, and hard to setup, and how tough it is to get a decent rig going. I don't think that's true when we stick to basics, and at least share the same room when singing from the hymn sheet. We can be as pompous as we like about the virtues of using linux and the opportunities it provides, but frankly, if Johnny Air Guitar can't a) hear something when he pretends to swing the axe, and b) has to deal with unwanted challenges just to get started, then he's gonna do the Win or Mac thing, and tell all his mates that Linux sucks, because he can't get it going, and doesn't want to appear dumb in front of his pals. That means our community stays small, and that help that people keep asking for isn't going to materialize immediately because the weight of numbers coming into our community isn't there. Is our community (one which i'm enthusiastic to be a part of) getting bigger or smaller? If smaller, why? I think it's good you're asking for help, providing a framework, and impetus, and i admire you for that. But it's also about the fundamentals of a system. You've written that it might be more work for the already overworked devs if they stray too far from the mainstream. I would argue that the addition of unused components in a distro must surely be a source of extra time wasted that could be better spent elsewhere, including the devs getting time off to enjoy their own lives a bit more. Personally, i'd rather have a good rt kernel, a solid and reliable late version Jack (and optional Jack2) option at install time, the most commonly used up to date audio apps, and a lightweight window manager, then point the users towards the repos for the.other stuff. But i'm not a coder, just an enthusiastic user, and passionate about spreading the linux audio word, so what do i know. One more question. Why does UBstudio have to follow the mainstream version schedule? Why not release UBS for only the LTS versions, and put the time and effort saved into a much longer timespan for the devs, and contributors
Re: Forging a new path.
Well I'd like to start with a warning that I've just woken up the morning after my cousin's wedding, so if I make some hung over gaffs please excuse them. Sandie mentioned: "I know that it would mean more trivial work for the team, but perhaps a more detailed "what can I do" would help in the long run." So I thought I'd make public one that I've recently started. I originally intended this to become a sticky post in the Multimedia Production section of UbuntuForums (so that guided the tone of what I've written), but for the sheer convenience of the wiki format I've posted it here to get everyone to help work on it: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/howtohelp(please go and edit it) Sometimes helping out with the dev team really is just that simple - create a page on the wiki. I think that's well within everyone's abilities here. I'm saddened to see that this discussion has started before Jaunty's release. I think the large number of Pulse Audio mentions in this post stems from this (Hardy - which most people are using - was the first PA-by-default Ubuntu), I for one enjoy the benefits of Pulse Audio and believe that the further UbuntuStudio strays from the Ubuntu default setup the more work the Dev team has to take on. But on a more fundamental level the vision for the future should probably be crafted after people get a better feel for the present. Lending a helping hand on this project is really essential for it's survival. I'd like to see many more edits to the documentation, and people volunteering themselves to be testers. I've committed (on IRC) to becoming a / the lead tester, so anyone who'd like to help out with testing should probably send me an e-mail with the subject "UbStub Tester" and I'll gladly hand out directions (knowledge of using a VM is really useful, but not essential). As for future directions of the project, I would hope the answer would be 'stay the course'; Ubuntu Studio is a very successful disto for a reason. I do audio as my main focus, but sometimes that involves working on a soundtrack for a film, so the video software comes in handy, sometimes that involves creating posters or online PR for a concert, so the graphics packages are essential. In the end I don't think Ubuntu Studio is greatly burdened by the Video and Graphics end of the development. A few improvements that I think would be useful for the project would be: * getting the new firewire stack implemented (the current system is insecure and rigid) to assist firewire soundcards * pushing forward the new LV2 plugin standard (this really is just a packaging project so if you can learn to package you can probably help here) * http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/18847/ * http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/18873/ I'd really like to see Ubuntu Studio maintian the ability to run all applications (rhythmbox is a dead app) even if they're not jack aware. I rely on Skype for connections to my family, not having to reboot to get that done is almost essential (just really really really useful). In the end I'd hope more people would get out and join the dev mailing list, say hi and ask where they can help - better yet would be to just help and ask questions later. Here's a quick introduction to packaging: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKLabbXTqMc (part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwTp1YnehoI (part 2) But really, documentation has not occured in the community docs since Hardy, testing is almost non-existent (I'm trying to help fix that), and packaging is an area that many hads already help with. PLEASE, everyone jump on board and do your part. Linux is built on and only succeeds with a vibrant development community. - Eric Hedekar -- ___ http://greyrockstudio.blogspot.com -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 sandie wrote: > Like every single one on this list, I have the utmost respect for the > Ubustu-team and their work. > > To me... the force of Ubustu is that I don't have to dualboot, I can use > the same distro for making music, online banking, python/php-programming > and games. > There's are a lot of distros out there that's "audio-only", and allthou > I have tried most of them, I always come back to Ubustu, mainly because > of it's ability to do all the things I want to do on my computer. > > There is however two things that I find confusing with Ubustu. > > 1. I know that it's an unpopular subject, but I use wine for some audio > things, and by the traffic on my website where I host a script for > installing wineasio, I can see that I'm not the only one, but aparently > JAD is one of the only audio-distros that support wineasio ? > Wine and winasio is a support nightmare. I know it is popular, but in my experience, people who are interested in this contribute the least. > 2. As I understand, most who use Ubustu for audio-purpose, doesn't use > Pulse. It's the first thing I disable when I install a fresh Ubustu, and > the most common question I get when I install it for a fellow mussician, > is why Ubustu doen't have a "without Pulse" option in the install, or > maybe just as an option in ubuntu-studio-controls ? > I managed to make a small Python gui program that (among other things) > disables Pulse permanently or just for the sesion, but allthou it works > (at least on my pc), I don't understand half of the code myself. > I also disable pulse (sudo update-rc.d -f pulseaudio remove). On my system removing it completely (via one of the apt utilities) caused some dependency issues, meaning that this could be a complicated problem. Having said that I am not a fan of pulse, and was a little dismayed that it was the solution to the perceived audio problems under Linux. > > I would love to contribute in any small way I can, but looking at the > packaging videos at youtube by MOTO, it became clear to me why I'm not a > developer :-) many of the things are total greek to me (and I'm not from > Greece), so I started trying to write some small Python apps to get a > better understanding of it all, but still... seeing just what it takes > to make a "simple" package, gives me more reason to admire the work you > all put into this. > I am an exelent copy-paster and a skilled button clicker, but that's > all, even compiling a kernel is something that makes my head hurt. > I know that it would mean more trivial work for the team, but perhaps a > more detailed "what can I do" would help in the long run. > It is not all about coding. Documentation is at least as important but even more tedious. There is a number of options, from what I have seen of Cory's posts, documentation and testing are at the top of the list. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkniM8EACgkQwRXgH3rKGfN10ACghLE/huTl/Jp8ee48MUNVvMJ9 Q6AAniV5Qqd9k3s7Bjjj+o0rNYr2XVgo =wO0E -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path
I use it for online banking too. But I am happy to give up those small luxuries for a dedicated (read: mean) DAW OS sandie wrote: >* Susan Cragin wrote: *>>* I'm not sure you should use Ubuntu Studio with a real-time kernel for online banking. I wouldn't. *>>* Susan *>>* *>* Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why shouldn't I use it for *>* online banking ? * -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 alex stone wrote: > Well, you need to quantify contribution. Some of us can't code, and > like you, work for a living. I'll only speak for myself here, but i > spend every moment i can, when not writing/working, testing, and > trying to make some sort of even modest contribution. I'm also a > clumsy linux audio PR chap, and attempt to 'spread the word' with > patience, explanation, and occasionally the odd bout of strident > enthusiasm. Not everything can be put on a list, and ticked as 'A > contribution'. It can often be more subtle than that. You don't know > how many people i, or others, been in contact with, or seen the hours > spent talking them through an install, and the challenges that may > arise. I do my best, sometimes getting it right and wrong, but i think > it's a little strong to suggest there's only a few that make a > contribution. Some of us are out in the trenches, and can't always > appear in the office. :) > - From his original message: "We've tried many times to get a proper testing and documentation team together, an area where even novice users can help, but that has come to nothing." There are many ways to contribute. Cheers, __ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkniLz8ACgkQwRXgH3rKGfNP4ACeNiDBGvbq76smLHjyWafNr/gU pFMAn3YF29aH9Qwviq9sIq3R9831+bJs =54l+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 sandie wrote: > Susan Cragin wrote: >> I'm not sure you should use Ubuntu Studio with a real-time kernel for online >> banking. I wouldn't. >> Susan >> > Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why shouldn't I use it for > online banking ? > I can't think of a reason. I run an RT kernel by default for day to day use, without issue. VMWare Workstation even runs on top of an RT kernel. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkniLe0ACgkQwRXgH3rKGfNjbQCff7fgOFHuygjDly3bJ8M+ALIm vIUAoJVjdZDxMKJaNpxjaMXhDcZgvcKG =vQWr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path
Cory, I totally agree with Alex on every point that he commented about this issue, I couldn't put it more beautifully and sharply, to the point. In a sentence: Ubuntu Studio should be an audio-jack based distro. Delete all else. As for: > Also, it's been lacking in what anyone is willing to actually *do* for > this future but it's still early. :) I can maybe give you some advice here. I am doing this with my best intentions. It's all about management. [story 1] I work as a music teacher in a primary school. Recently, for the first time in my life, I was solely responsible for our Easter School Play. I wanted to involve the children in preparing it, the staff and the parents. I created a website, sending emails with possible, generic 'to do' tasks. A few parents and teachers responded. But it was not enough, I needed more people, more skills for the various tasks that needed to be done (what a complex job is preparing a school play - I never knew!). Anyway, the time was passing, I was frustrated with the reaction of the staff and people and wanted to give up, but I couldn't. Then one day, I just simply made a list of the specific jobs, thought about them and went to every teacher in person. "You need to do this (job1), if you can't then please do this (job2), etc." and everybody did their part beautifully, the play was a great success, blah-blah... [moral] Point is, I see on these lists that people want to help. Genuinely. But they need specific tasks and a deadline. This is how we operate. [story 2] Linux Journal started an action, something like: "Experts answer your questions". I volunteered as an 'audio-expert', I thought I could give an advice to a novice... Once a month, they would send a question from a reader with a deadline for the answers. I loved the concept: specific and a deadline. It worked. [moral] We, users of Ubuntu, all know something at a different level. and I can see that most of us love this Distro and are willing to help. Give us specific tasks. With a deadline. Make the titles on the 'Tasks' emails/posts recognizable: not everybody follows all the threads, so titles are important. I know it's a hard job to organize, but someone needs to lead, really. my 2p. Viktor -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
This is the perspective of an EE educated, amateur musician/producer/"project studio" guy, Unix-literate, mostly Mac-using, Linux noob who just installed Ubuntu on a new HP mini 10. I have been reading this list trying to get a feel for the state of Linux audio and to see if I might try Ubuntu Studio on my next DAW - which will be a PC (not the HP mini!) after years of using a Mac in the studio. I don't know how many other folks like me there are on this list, but I offer my opinions for what they are worth. One of the things that draws me to Linux is the ability to interact with and customize your system to a high degree. Unix is my favorite OS (though my experience is only as a user, and that years ago), and having unix+gui on my home computer is pretty ideal (technical distinctions between Linux and Unix aside). However, like most people I suspect, my time for music and computers is very limited. In particular, I don't want to spend time trying to get my DAW to work if I can avoid it - learning how to use it, even learning the OS and how it interacts with the DAW - great - but not troubleshooting and debugging and throwing stuff against the wall. I am amazed that Ubuntu Studio - and apps like Ardour, etc. - even exist. Its a testament to the creative and generous spirit of humankind. It also appears rather tenuous due to the selfish, or at least self-interested spirit in all of us as well. The Linux haters I've run into are quick to point out that if you want something to work - especially something as complicated as a pro audio DAW system - you have to pay for it - and you get what you pay for, blah blah. I think this has been proven at least partially untrue by the Linux audio community on one hand, and yet on the other hand this same community bears out the truth in that statement as well. Cory's comments in the original post of this thread exemplify this very well I think. So, to get back on track, what is most attractive to me as a potential Ubuntu Studio user (and possible contributor, if I learn enough to make any useful contribution) is a lean, mean DAW machine, as described below and by others in this thread. I think most serious DAW users have a computer dedicated as a DAW (no matter what OS they use) and have other machines for email, web, games, whatever. The big challenge with Windows and Mac is getting all the crap off the machine, and disabling all the OS bloat to maximize DAW performance - and even then, there is so much unnecessary (for audio production) overhead built into the OS. Seems to me that the major "selling point" of a Linux audio distro would be "bloat-freeness". I was surprised when I started researching Linux for audio to find out about the superiority of the RT kernel compared to Windows/Mac - that and the fact that the software is free are just bonuses. But the main thing to me would be its simple (compared to commercial OSes), efficient, and it works. Especially that last part. :-) I have spent countless hours debugging SW and HW on my Mac DAW, and to this day have stuff that doesn't work. I believe that's in large part because even on Mac - despite Apple's advertising - audio is little more than an afterthought. Ubuntu Studio could be like the SW component of a dedicated HW DAW, except that the dedicated HW is not an expensive, custom machine made in small quantities, but the ubiquitous PC. That's the best of both worlds, IMO. I realize Ubuntu Studio is *not* intended to be an audio-only distro. Maybe that's part of the tension in future direction. Maybe a "studio" distro for audio, video, graphic design, whatever, is still too broad. How many people are seriously involved in all of those things? Some to be sure, but probably a minority compared to the number who focus primarily on just one. I'm not suggesting Ubuntu Studio ditch everything but audio - as Cory said, its direction/content will be determined by the people who actually make it. But what I personally would be drawn to is a dedicated pro-audio distro. I don't expect such a thing, especially for free. I expect I will plug my nose and install Windows, and use SONAR and other commercial apps. But man if there ever were an audio-specific Linux distro, I would be very interested - even enough to spend a couple hours here and there trying to contribute. :-) My $0.02. Happy Easter to my fellow Christians! ld On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 04:31 -0500, Glenn Holmer wrote: > On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 12:42 +0400, alex stone wrote: > > No games, no pulse, no extra players, utilities, skype, or anything > > else that isn't absolutely essential to a dedicated audio/video distro > > for making music and images. > > > > Give the user the option to include what they want from main repos, > > but refer them to the main repos if something goes wrong with their > > "extras". > > In these halycon days of multiboot, cross-platform options, UBS > > doesn't have to include all the rest of the cr
Re: Forging a new path
Hi, For me the most important aspects of Ubuntu Studio are Jack, Jack capable Apps, and a Realtime Kernel. And now that Jack has JackMidi it is even more central to my 'forward thinking' needs. I don't do much with Ubuntu Studio except run Virtual Pipe Organs using fluidsynth and linuxsampler, recording in Ardour and Rosegarden, but it all works and works well. Thanks to everyone who has been involved in UBStudio so far, it gave me an alternative that simply rocks :-) GrahamG Johannesburg, South Africa -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
Susan Cragin wrote: > I'm not sure you should use Ubuntu Studio with a real-time kernel for online > banking. I wouldn't. > Susan > Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why shouldn't I use it for online banking ? /Sandie -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Cory K. wrote: > So far, this email has done what I intended. And luckily you guys have > been able to remain critical without resorting to childish language. Maybe because some of us are genuinely sincere in our enthusiasm to see UBS go forward as part of a wider linux profile, towards a greater excellence. > While some opinions as to what we are and have tried to achieve have > been a little off the mark, I'll just let that go because this is really > all about the future. Ok, i'll ask. Which future? I already said i was perturbed at seeing pulse audio included, as i think it doesn't add anything to a dedicated audio distro. That's just my view based on what i perceive an audio specific distro to be. But as this thread already shows, i'm not on my own (and i have no doubt there will be equally valid opinions to the contrary). It's your choice which direction UBS takes, and ours as users, and sometimes testers, and modest contributors in , as to our perception of what UBS gives us in the process of writing music. As users we have to weigh up the time we have for writing music, and time spent maintaining our system. But i've also discovered in life that a self assessment of a project, and a sometimes hard appraisal of where it's going can be highly useful when trying to keep the train on the track, so to speak. Maybe this is UBS's time. > Also, it's been lacking in what anyone is willing to actually *do* for > this future but it's still early. :) Well, you need to quantify contribution. Some of us can't code, and like you, work for a living. I'll only speak for myself here, but i spend every moment i can, when not writing/working, testing, and trying to make some sort of even modest contribution. I'm also a clumsy linux audio PR chap, and attempt to 'spread the word' with patience, explanation, and occasionally the odd bout of strident enthusiasm. Not everything can be put on a list, and ticked as 'A contribution'. It can often be more subtle than that. You don't know how many people i, or others, been in contact with, or seen the hours spent talking them through an install, and the challenges that may arise. I do my best, sometimes getting it right and wrong, but i think it's a little strong to suggest there's only a few that make a contribution. Some of us are out in the trenches, and can't always appear in the office. :) > I also want Luis to take over this chat so I'll just let things run for now. > > > -Cory K. And again, i wish you all the very best Cory, whatever direction you take. It's my continuing view that there's a large group of audio users who continue to appreciate the effort you and many others put in on our behalf in the linux audio world, and the generosity of not only time, but selflessly shared expertise, that gives use great tools to work with, and the enjoyment that goes with using those tools. The linux audio journey, be it with UBS or something else, remains enjoyable, and full of thoroughly interesting surprises. Regards, Alex. -- Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...) -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Cory K. wrote: > So far, this email has done what I intended. And luckily you guys have > been able to remain critical without resorting to childish language. > > While some opinions as to what we are and have tried to achieve have > been a little off the mark, I'll just let that go because this is really > all about the future. > > Also, it's been lacking in what anyone is willing to actually *do* for > this future but it's still early. :) > > I also want Luis to take over this chat so I'll just let things run for > now. > > > -Cory K. > > -- > Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list > Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users > I've had no issues with the way UStudio has been crafted. Its beautiful to look at and - frankly its made my transition from Win to Linux a pleasurable one. I'm an artist/actionscript developer but, any help I can offer I will. aYo -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
So far, this email has done what I intended. And luckily you guys have been able to remain critical without resorting to childish language. While some opinions as to what we are and have tried to achieve have been a little off the mark, I'll just let that go because this is really all about the future. Also, it's been lacking in what anyone is willing to actually *do* for this future but it's still early. :) I also want Luis to take over this chat so I'll just let things run for now. -Cory K. -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
I'm not sure you should use Ubuntu Studio with a real-time kernel for online banking. I wouldn't. Susan -Original Message- >To me... the force of Ubustu is that I don't have to dualboot, I can use >the same distro for making music, online banking, python/php-programming >and games. -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
Actually, I would agree with all the points here. All the technical points, and everything else. In spades. Distros that do everything end up doing nothing. Dump the non-professional audio and the people that want to use it. Make this about the best audio possible. Linux and open source should be about user choices. But having said that, it is also about user responsibility. Open source means you can modify, you can start your own offshoot if that appeals to you. You shouldn't expect others, especially volunteers, to solve your problems. Volunteers do what they do because they have a personal interest, and an itch to scratch, not because they want to be customer service reps for whatever they create. I love installing a lean distro, and I have some technical knowledge and patience. A good basic system with a good real-time kernel, and wine (and a couple of other apps) from source or even a git repository. Having said that, professional linux audio is needed for amateur and professional musicians. My neighbor just got back from Africa, where he spread AIDS-awareness messages by attracting local singers to a small recording studio he set up. I use it to run speech recognition software. (Many of the world's courts run on Linux, not Windows, and that's the trend of the future. What price justice?) Susan >I'm going to sound fairly ruthless here, but i got into UBstudio at >Gutsy, and apart from the graphics adventure we all seem to have at >one point or another, the install was ok, and lean. I'd definitely >side with Susan here and dump pulseaudio. That's an extra challenge in >a dedicated audio/video distro that we don't need. One only has to >trawl through the mailing list to see how many times this came up, and >for what? So users could have skype/rthymbox/etc? > >It seems that Ubstudio has tried to be all things to all users, and as >i understand it, we have Ubuntu generic for that. > >Perhaps the reverse should be true. > >Build a really lean, dedicated audio/video distro, and let the user >draw from that specialist repo, over the top of a generic ubuntu base. >It's up to them if they face challenges with pulseaudio/jack/etc..., >as a result, and they can sort it out with the main ubuntu team. I >don't know what the regulations are for building with Ubuntu, nor how >far you can step forward into a state of the art distro, in terms of >developed apps, but i get the impression that it's an uphill battle to >include recent versions of apps, because of the 'greater good' of >Ubuntu in general. (and no criticism intended here.) > >And perhaps the question you ask Cory is the valid of all. > >What do we actually want in a dedicated audio/video distro? > >Scott made a good point, imho, about jack. > >In the current linux audio world, jack lies at the heart. It's ability >to bring together multi app setups so effectively puts it above >anything else we could expect to use. As an orchestral writer it has >the elements that are missing from other OS's, who frankly should have >built their sound systems in the 'jack' way in the first place. >(multiple unlimited audio/midi ports, etc..) >It's what we have, and it does it's job very well indeed. (imho) >I will admit i got kinda irritated the day it was announced that pulse >would be included in ubuntu by default. It felt like the concept of a >professionally useable distro was playing second fiddle to a domestic >user requirement, something they already had in ubuntu main anyway. I >still don't see the reasoning behind this, and i think the inclusion >of pulse has only contributed problems, not solved any. If devs are ok >with coding with Jack/Alsa, and nearly all of our useable apps are >Jackable now, with an option to route OSS and ALSA apps through Jack >with efficient plugins, and the mighty .asoundrc option, then there's >little need for anything else. >We have to draw the line somewhere, and although there will always be >those who don't like it, they do have other options, with a bit of >elbow grease on their part. Can't please everyone, and i think UBS has >tried to do that, to it's detriment. (And no offence to the UBS team. >I think they've done a great job, under a lot of pressure.) > >Can i respectfully suggest the UBS project gets back to basics, which >is something it did really well? > >Great kernel for realtime use. >Minimal set of requirements to run the OS itself. >Up to date audio and video apps. > >No games, no pulse, no extra players, utilities, skype, or anything >else that isn't absolutely essential to a dedicated audio/video distro >for making music and images. > >Give the user the option to include what they want from main repos, >but refer them to the main repos if something goes wrong with their >"extras". >In these halycon days of multiboot, cross-platform options, UBS >doesn't have to include all the rest of the crap. It can stick with >excellence, and performance, and let the user reboot if he or she >wants something
Re: Forging a new path.
Like every single one on this list, I have the utmost respect for the Ubustu-team and their work. To me... the force of Ubustu is that I don't have to dualboot, I can use the same distro for making music, online banking, python/php-programming and games. There's are a lot of distros out there that's "audio-only", and allthou I have tried most of them, I always come back to Ubustu, mainly because of it's ability to do all the things I want to do on my computer. There is however two things that I find confusing with Ubustu. 1. I know that it's an unpopular subject, but I use wine for some audio things, and by the traffic on my website where I host a script for installing wineasio, I can see that I'm not the only one, but aparently JAD is one of the only audio-distros that support wineasio ? 2. As I understand, most who use Ubustu for audio-purpose, doesn't use Pulse. It's the first thing I disable when I install a fresh Ubustu, and the most common question I get when I install it for a fellow mussician, is why Ubustu doen't have a "without Pulse" option in the install, or maybe just as an option in ubuntu-studio-controls ? I managed to make a small Python gui program that (among other things) disables Pulse permanently or just for the sesion, but allthou it works (at least on my pc), I don't understand half of the code myself. I would love to contribute in any small way I can, but looking at the packaging videos at youtube by MOTO, it became clear to me why I'm not a developer :-) many of the things are total greek to me (and I'm not from Greece), so I started trying to write some small Python apps to get a better understanding of it all, but still... seeing just what it takes to make a "simple" package, gives me more reason to admire the work you all put into this. I am an exelent copy-paster and a skilled button clicker, but that's all, even compiling a kernel is something that makes my head hurt. I know that it would mean more trivial work for the team, but perhaps a more detailed "what can I do" would help in the long run. /Sandie -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 12:42 +0400, alex stone wrote: > No games, no pulse, no extra players, utilities, skype, or anything > else that isn't absolutely essential to a dedicated audio/video distro > for making music and images. > > Give the user the option to include what they want from main repos, > but refer them to the main repos if something goes wrong with their > "extras". > In these halycon days of multiboot, cross-platform options, UBS > doesn't have to include all the rest of the crap. It can stick with > excellence, and performance, and let the user reboot if he or she > wants something outside of a pure DAW environment. +1 -- "After the vintage season came the aftermath - and Cenbe." Glenn Holmer (Q-Link: ShadowM) http://www.lyonlabs.org -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Forging a new path.
I'm going to sound fairly ruthless here, but i got into UBstudio at Gutsy, and apart from the graphics adventure we all seem to have at one point or another, the install was ok, and lean. I'd definitely side with Susan here and dump pulseaudio. That's an extra challenge in a dedicated audio/video distro that we don't need. One only has to trawl through the mailing list to see how many times this came up, and for what? So users could have skype/rthymbox/etc? It seems that Ubstudio has tried to be all things to all users, and as i understand it, we have Ubuntu generic for that. Perhaps the reverse should be true. Build a really lean, dedicated audio/video distro, and let the user draw from that specialist repo, over the top of a generic ubuntu base. It's up to them if they face challenges with pulseaudio/jack/etc..., as a result, and they can sort it out with the main ubuntu team. I don't know what the regulations are for building with Ubuntu, nor how far you can step forward into a state of the art distro, in terms of developed apps, but i get the impression that it's an uphill battle to include recent versions of apps, because of the 'greater good' of Ubuntu in general. (and no criticism intended here.) And perhaps the question you ask Cory is the valid of all. What do we actually want in a dedicated audio/video distro? Scott made a good point, imho, about jack. In the current linux audio world, jack lies at the heart. It's ability to bring together multi app setups so effectively puts it above anything else we could expect to use. As an orchestral writer it has the elements that are missing from other OS's, who frankly should have built their sound systems in the 'jack' way in the first place. (multiple unlimited audio/midi ports, etc..) It's what we have, and it does it's job very well indeed. (imho) I will admit i got kinda irritated the day it was announced that pulse would be included in ubuntu by default. It felt like the concept of a professionally useable distro was playing second fiddle to a domestic user requirement, something they already had in ubuntu main anyway. I still don't see the reasoning behind this, and i think the inclusion of pulse has only contributed problems, not solved any. If devs are ok with coding with Jack/Alsa, and nearly all of our useable apps are Jackable now, with an option to route OSS and ALSA apps through Jack with efficient plugins, and the mighty .asoundrc option, then there's little need for anything else. We have to draw the line somewhere, and although there will always be those who don't like it, they do have other options, with a bit of elbow grease on their part. Can't please everyone, and i think UBS has tried to do that, to it's detriment. (And no offence to the UBS team. I think they've done a great job, under a lot of pressure.) Can i respectfully suggest the UBS project gets back to basics, which is something it did really well? Great kernel for realtime use. Minimal set of requirements to run the OS itself. Up to date audio and video apps. No games, no pulse, no extra players, utilities, skype, or anything else that isn't absolutely essential to a dedicated audio/video distro for making music and images. Give the user the option to include what they want from main repos, but refer them to the main repos if something goes wrong with their "extras". In these halycon days of multiboot, cross-platform options, UBS doesn't have to include all the rest of the crap. It can stick with excellence, and performance, and let the user reboot if he or she wants something outside of a pure DAW environment. I sound a bit hard here, but from my perspective, it seems to make sense to re-evaluate to a less complicated level. Users have other options. 2 roubles worth, and a big thank you to the UBS team for all their hard work, and determination. UBS was my first distro, and as a composer and musician, it got me going in Linux, and helped me realise just how many options, and great tools, we have. I've become a 'source install junkie' since then, but i don't forget where all this started. Alex. On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Cory K. wrote: > Scott wrote: >> I think those questions would have been quickly answered if UBS was more >> focused on >> being a trim distro in the spirit of a dedicated DAW instead of incorporating >> everything from Ubuntu-desktop >> > > We've never done that. Matter of fact, we take out quite a bit. Do a > clean install without the metas and you see just how sparse it is > compared to Ubuntu. (be sure we'll get crap for not having the new > notification setup) Where issues come in is supporting apps that don't > use JACK. *Regardless* of if its a audio/video/graphics app. > > And *part* of that increased focus was due to the fact that to include > the audio apps people wanted put us over 700MB /anyway/. So, why not > expand a bit? I feel including Video and Graphic apps were great for > their promotion. > > > So yes. 1 idea i
Re: Forging a new path.
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 3:26 AM, Cory K. wrote: > Scott wrote: > > I think those questions would have been quickly answered if UBS was more > focused on > > being a trim distro in the spirit of a dedicated DAW instead of > incorporating > > everything from Ubuntu-desktop > > > > We've never done that. Matter of fact, we take out quite a bit. Do a > clean install without the metas and you see just how sparse it is > compared to Ubuntu. (be sure we'll get crap for not having the new > notification setup) Where issues come in is supporting apps that don't > use JACK. *Regardless* of if its a audio/video/graphics app. > > And *part* of that increased focus was due to the fact that to include > the audio apps people wanted put us over 700MB /anyway/. So, why not > expand a bit? I feel including Video and Graphic apps were great for > their promotion. > > > So yes. 1 idea is to flush it all and focus on JACK. But note, it's just > an idea and the future will be crafted by those involved. > > > -COry K. > > > -- > Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list > Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users > Cory, whatever this novice user can do - I'd like to do aYo -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
