Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Ricardo Lameiro]

Hello List,

Well, I have been reading the messages and there is a couple things that
people don't discuss or maybe don't know.

As of Ubuntu/UbuntuStudio 10.04, Jack is on the main repositories, this is a
huge improvement from the past. what does this mean?

If you do a fresh install, at install time, either alternate install or
ubiquity will prompt the user if they want to install and setup jack.
This means that the audio group and the settings are made on install time.
Another thing is that the settings now are at

/etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf

more info at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation

There is also
underway, some efforts to use Jack2, that is Dbus enabled. this will
enable"in theory" a good and seemingly interaction with PulseAudio. thing
aren't perfect, true, but sometimes we need to help each other to find the
better solutions, and also, try to give that solutions to the devs.
 The devs have families to, lives, they dont work for canonical,
ubuntustudio is a community project, and i think sometimes people forget
that, they just want it working without giving nothing back.
 I love this discussion, because at least some people want it to become
better and do exchange info. So i hope with all of our efforts as users, we
could help as much as we can the dev team. this is a win for all of us.

Ricardo Lameiro


2010/6/1 Hartmut Noack 

> Am 01.06.2010 14:08, schrieb Pablo Fernandez:
>
> > I find it neater the way it is now. As a user, I think the case
> > is similar to /etc/apt/sources.list and
> > /etc/apt/sources.list.d/someother.list
> > Particular configurations for particular goals are in a separate file.
> > Someone in the LAU list mentioned other examples and gave better reasons.
> > Anyway,  the user does not have to bother anymore with editing a system
> > file.
> >
> > More authoritative reasons are here:
> >   http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=507248
>
> Very interesting read - thanks for the link!
>
> This discussion shows quite clearly, where the overall problem with
> pro-audio on Linux lies: Those, who do the good work in building Distros
> like Debian do not know about pro-audio. If you tell them, that it is so
> demanding, they see a risk for their overall working system/security
> etc. And they are apalled to hear, that there are some crazy people out
> there, that want to have a 970MB-File locked into memory to be
> accessible with less then 10ms latency.
>
> This I understand but I do absolutely not understand, that these
> tech-people do not react like this:
>
> "Well quite interesting stuff, you crazies do there - let us do whatever
> possible and sane to make our system support such incredible features!"
>
> They act more like:
>
> "Comeon, do not bother us with such strange single-user
> niche-applications. Do this if you like but stay away from our great
> system settings that work so well for dozens of years now."
>
> > I like when Steve writes "common doesn't mean correct".
>
> I am not sure if he really knows, what he is talking about.
>
> The whole thing is, that jack, though it is a user-process, needs to be
> priviledged even more than the avarage root-process in order to work
> properly for the user. And this is not a bug or a flaw in the design of
> jack but simply a neccissity. This process needs to access data as fast
> as technically possible. Can the kernel-memory management guarranty
> that? Apparantly not. So you have 2 decisons:
>
> 1.) have a system set up conservatively for everyone, that runs normal
> Desktop-Apps and thats it. No RT-apps on Linux at least not for users
> with higher skills in tweaking system settings.
>
> 2.) find a sane way to let the user decide, what he/she likes to do with
> the system-setup.
>
> >
> > We will have to learn again  :)
>
> Everybody needs to learn every day.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group
> >> audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the
> >> packagers do not implement that.
> >>
> >
> > I didn't say exactly so. I think a package script must not deal with
> users
> > and groups.
> > But the distro should do it, imho.
>
> You mean: group audio should be set up in the initial install and the
> first user should be in that group?
> Why?
>
> >
> >>
> >>> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost)
> out
> >> of
> >>> the way.
> >>
> >> I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.
> >>
> >>> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in
> >> getting
> >>> rid of pulseaudio is the following:
> >>>
> >>> qjackctl -->   Options tab, execute script on startup:
> >>> pulseaudio -k
> >>>
> >>> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
> >>>
> >>> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
> >>> following:
> >>>
> >>> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
> >>>
> >>> Ch

Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Hartmut Noack]

Am 01.06.2010 14:08, schrieb Pablo Fernandez:

> I find it neater the way it is now. As a user, I think the case
> is similar to /etc/apt/sources.list and
> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/someother.list
> Particular configurations for particular goals are in a separate file.
> Someone in the LAU list mentioned other examples and gave better reasons.
> Anyway,  the user does not have to bother anymore with editing a system
> file.
>
> More authoritative reasons are here:
>   http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=507248

Very interesting read - thanks for the link!

This discussion shows quite clearly, where the overall problem with 
pro-audio on Linux lies: Those, who do the good work in building Distros 
like Debian do not know about pro-audio. If you tell them, that it is so 
demanding, they see a risk for their overall working system/security 
etc. And they are apalled to hear, that there are some crazy people out 
there, that want to have a 970MB-File locked into memory to be 
accessible with less then 10ms latency.

This I understand but I do absolutely not understand, that these 
tech-people do not react like this:

"Well quite interesting stuff, you crazies do there - let us do whatever 
possible and sane to make our system support such incredible features!"

They act more like:

"Comeon, do not bother us with such strange single-user 
niche-applications. Do this if you like but stay away from our great 
system settings that work so well for dozens of years now."

> I like when Steve writes "common doesn't mean correct".

I am not sure if he really knows, what he is talking about.

The whole thing is, that jack, though it is a user-process, needs to be 
priviledged even more than the avarage root-process in order to work 
properly for the user. And this is not a bug or a flaw in the design of 
jack but simply a neccissity. This process needs to access data as fast 
as technically possible. Can the kernel-memory management guarranty 
that? Apparantly not. So you have 2 decisons:

1.) have a system set up conservatively for everyone, that runs normal 
Desktop-Apps and thats it. No RT-apps on Linux at least not for users 
with higher skills in tweaking system settings.

2.) find a sane way to let the user decide, what he/she likes to do with 
the system-setup.

>
> We will have to learn again  :)

Everybody needs to learn every day.

>
>>
>> Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group
>> audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the
>> packagers do not implement that.
>>
>
> I didn't say exactly so. I think a package script must not deal with users
> and groups.
> But the distro should do it, imho.

You mean: group audio should be set up in the initial install and the 
first user should be in that group?
Why?

>
>>
>>> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out
>> of
>>> the way.
>>
>> I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.
>>
>>> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in
>> getting
>>> rid of pulseaudio is the following:
>>>
>>> qjackctl -->   Options tab, execute script on startup:
>>> pulseaudio -k
>>>
>>> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
>>>
>>> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
>>>
>>> Change the line:
>>> ; autospawn = yes
>>> to:
>>> autospawn = no
>>>
>>> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:
>>>
>>> $ pulseaudio --start
>>
>> This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so
>> globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I
>> really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick
>
>
> In my case, pasuspender does the trick but I don't want a pulseaudio daemon
> running at all.
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation#Pulse%20Audio
> recommends creating a *~/.pulse/client.conf*  with "autospawn = no" (instead
> of editing the system wide /etc/pulse/client.conf as I suggested) and then
> put "pulseaudio -k" as a "Startup Application".


The latter looks promising. If I find the time, Ill try it just for 
curiosity ;-)

best regs

HZN

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Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Pablo Fernandez]

 So the user should have the

> option to disable it completely - the same as he/she has the option not
> to use nautilus or apache.
> And this should be possible *without* deinstalling it.
>

I agree


>
> Again: is there ANY sane reason, that this script does not edit
> /etc/security/limits.conf?
>
> The script works but it breaks standards, that used to work like a charm
> for years now in the Linux audio realm. Asking G "how to setup linux for
> jack" turns out dozens of tutorials how to set up limits.conf. All of
> those work perfectly well on any Linux.
>

I find it neater the way it is now. As a user, I think the case
is similar to /etc/apt/sources.list and
/etc/apt/sources.list.d/someother.list
Particular configurations for particular goals are in a separate file.
Someone in the LAU list mentioned other examples and gave better reasons.
Anyway,  the user does not have to bother anymore with editing a system
file.

More authoritative reasons are here:
 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=507248
I like when Steve writes "common doesn't mean correct".

We will have to learn again  :)


>
> Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group
> audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the
> packagers do not implement that.
>

I didn't say exactly so. I think a package script must not deal with users
and groups.
But the distro should do it, imho.


>
> > For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out
> of
> > the way.
>
> I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.
>
> > Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in
> getting
> > rid of pulseaudio is the following:
> >
> > qjackctl -->  Options tab, execute script on startup:
> > pulseaudio -k
> >
> > (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
> >
> > However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
> > following:
> >
> > $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
> >
> > Change the line:
> > ; autospawn = yes
> > to:
> > autospawn = no
> >
> > If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:
> >
> > $ pulseaudio --start
>
> This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so
> globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I
> really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick


In my case, pasuspender does the trick but I don't want a pulseaudio daemon
running at all.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation#Pulse%20Audio
recommends creating a *~/.pulse/client.conf*  with "autospawn = no" (instead
of editing the system wide /etc/pulse/client.conf as I suggested) and then
put "pulseaudio -k" as a "Startup Application".

Cheers! Pablo
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Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Hartmut Noack]

Am 31.05.2010 14:40, schrieb Pablo Fernandez:
> I agree that jack should work out of the box in ubuntustudio but I don't
> agree that pulseaudio should not be the default audio system.
>
> In many cases, jack does not suit users well but pulseaudio is fine.

PA has the potential to solve a lot of old problems in Linux Desktop 
audio for good but it is not there yet. So the user should have the 
option to disable it completely - the same as he/she has the option not 
to use nautilus or apache.
And this should be possible *without* deinstalling it.

> As I see it, Jack is a must  for audio production, but not for audio in
> general. For example, if you have a surround system like in a home cinema,
> pulseaudio is the audio system that just works. Not jack.
>
>
>
>> Am I supposed to *"rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio"* to make jack work ?

This may or may not work I suppose it will not for it canwill break many 
other things on the desktop, crashing apps etc.

>> just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a
>> real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting
>>
>
> US is almost there. Imho, US should add the first user to the audio group
> automatically so that jackd starts out of the box from qjackctl. jackd post
> inst script (in lucid) gives the users in the audio group the privileges
> that jackd needs.

Again: is there ANY sane reason, that this script does not edit 
/etc/security/limits.conf?

The script works but it breaks standards, that used to work like a charm 
for years now in the Linux audio realm. Asking G "how to setup linux for 
jack" turns out dozens of tutorials how to set up limits.conf. All of 
those work perfectly well on any Linux.

Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group 
audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the 
packagers do not implement that.

> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out of
> the way.

I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.

> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting
> rid of pulseaudio is the following:
>
> qjackctl -->  Options tab, execute script on startup:
> pulseaudio -k
>
> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
>
> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
> following:
>
> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
>
> Change the line:
> ; autospawn = yes
> to:
> autospawn = no
>
> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:
>
> $ pulseaudio --start

This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so 
globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I 
really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick or try a 
system, that is 100% geared towards audio-power use such as pure:dyne or 
AVLinux. Both outperform anything else in audio today but they are not 
as nice a desktop as Ubuntu and they do not have such a big community 
and most of all: they lack the near-perfectly integrated big 
repositories Ubuntu has.


Best regards,
HZN/Berlin



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Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Brian David]

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Jose H.  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything
> related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu
> Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything
> that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S
>
> Am I supposed to *"rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio"* to make jack work ?, or it is
> just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a
> real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting
>
> Thanks.
>
>
Jack is like a lot of other things in Linux: for better or worse, the
quality and versatility of the software is the top priority, and an easy
user experience is often not a main consideration.  For this reason, there's
a fairly steep learning curve for using audio in Ubuntu, but it is worth
it.  Having used Ubuntu for audio work for about a year and half now, I can
comfortably say that, with a well set up system, Linux will out perform any
other OS when it comes to audio.

That being said, when it comes to getting Jack started, in most cases it
involves simply adding yourself to the 'audio' group (as someone else has
already mentioned).  If you're using a firewire device, you will also want
to use Ubuntu Studio Controls (under System > Administration) to get the
right permissions by selecting the raw1394 option.  Also, if you're using a
version of Ubuntu that is running Network Manager, it is probably a good
idea to disable networking while using Jack.

That should get you started.  Of course, there' s a lot of other stuff to
learn, and that takes time.

-- 
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Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Ricardo Lameiro]

well, can you explain what do you mean with jack doesnt work out of the box?
i installed ubuntu studio setup jack and it worked. when i said setup jack,
i speak on setting the latency/frames/buffers/periods. and it worked on the
generic kernel with rt flag on jack, so maybe it doesnt work for you, but
form works.

2010/5/31 Pablo Fernandez 

>
>
> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Jose H.  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything
>> related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu
>> Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything
>> that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S
>>
>
>
>
> I agree that jack should work out of the box in ubuntustudio but I don't
> agree that pulseaudio should not be the default audio system.
>
> In many cases, jack does not suit users well but pulseaudio is fine.
>
> As I see it, Jack is a must  for audio production, but not for audio in
> general. For example, if you have a surround system like in a home cinema,
> pulseaudio is the audio system that just works. Not jack.
>
>
>
>> Am I supposed to *"rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio"* to make jack work ?, or it is
>> just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a
>> real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting
>>
>
> US is almost there. Imho, US should add the first user to the audio group
> automatically so that jackd starts out of the box from qjackctl. jackd post
> inst script (in lucid) gives the users in the audio group the privileges
> that jackd needs.
>
> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out
> of the way.
>
> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting
> rid of pulseaudio is the following:
>
> qjackctl --> Options tab, execute script on startup:
> pulseaudio -k
>
> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
>
> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
> following:
>
> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
>
> Change the line:
> ; autospawn = yes
> to:
> autospawn = no
>
> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:
>
> $ pulseaudio --start
>
> BTW, pavucontrol seems better to me than gnome sound control, both being
> pulseaudio control interfaces.
>
> Cheers! Pablo
>
> --
> Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list
> Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
>
>


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Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[Pablo Fernandez]

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Jose H.  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything
> related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu
> Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything
> that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S
>



I agree that jack should work out of the box in ubuntustudio but I don't
agree that pulseaudio should not be the default audio system.

In many cases, jack does not suit users well but pulseaudio is fine.

As I see it, Jack is a must  for audio production, but not for audio in
general. For example, if you have a surround system like in a home cinema,
pulseaudio is the audio system that just works. Not jack.



> Am I supposed to *"rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio"* to make jack work ?, or it is
> just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a
> real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting
>

US is almost there. Imho, US should add the first user to the audio group
automatically so that jackd starts out of the box from qjackctl. jackd post
inst script (in lucid) gives the users in the audio group the privileges
that jackd needs.

For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out of
the way.

Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting
rid of pulseaudio is the following:

qjackctl --> Options tab, execute script on startup:
pulseaudio -k

(this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)

However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
following:

$ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf

Change the line:
; autospawn = yes
to:
autospawn = no

If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:

$ pulseaudio --start

BTW, pavucontrol seems better to me than gnome sound control, both being
pulseaudio control interfaces.

Cheers! Pablo
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Re: What's wrong with jack ?

[craigerau]

Jose, to continue the analogy...  Like most things that just work out of the 
box, there is some assembly required.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: "Jose H." 
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:17:44 
To: 
Subject: What's wrong with jack ?

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What's wrong with jack ?

[Jose H.]

Hi all,

Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything
related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu
Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything
that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S

Am I supposed to *"rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio"* to make jack work ?, or it is
just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a
real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting

Thanks.
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