Re: Hebrew CLI translations
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 20:45, Khaled Hosny wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:18:16PM +0200, David Planella wrote: > > * In terms of disabling the use of CLI translations: we could consider > > disabling them at the package level as in Debian (removing the language > > code in the po/LINGUAS file for those packages which use it), or we > > could see if we can blacklist the imports/exports of those applications > > in Launchpad. > > I don't think that is a good idea, it should be left to translation team > to decide whether or not translate such applications, there are several > ways to display RTL in terminals (Acon, BiCon, Mlterm, Pterm, Konsole) > for people who wont it, some one not wanting translation can easily set > his locale to English (e.g. by adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' to his > ~/.bashrc, which won't affect the GUI), but if we removed the > translation completely then people who want it will not be able to get > it. It is agreed that each translation team should choose it's own path regarding CLI translation process. For the Hebrew team the initial problem is that while we agreed on the desired solution, it couldn't be executed. We translated CLI templates in Launchpad into English but every new release our translations were overridden. This is why the bugs were opened in the first place. For the solution of adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' we concluded that it is not something we want new users to deal with in a fresh Ubuntu installation. Eyal -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Indonesian, another question
Hi all :) Thanks for the responses last time! We have another indonesian question now https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/75596 "modem sony ericsson G705 tidak terbaca di kubuntu 9.04" Thanks and regards from Tom :) -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:18:16PM +0200, David Planella wrote: > * In terms of disabling the use of CLI translations: we could consider > disabling them at the package level as in Debian (removing the language > code in the po/LINGUAS file for those packages which use it), or we > could see if we can blacklist the imports/exports of those applications > in Launchpad. I don't think that is a good idea, it should be left to translation team to decide whether or not translate such applications, there are several ways to display RTL in terminals (Acon, BiCon, Mlterm, Pterm, Konsole) for people who wont it, some one not wanting translation can easily set his locale to English (e.g. by adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' to his ~/.bashrc, which won't affect the GUI), but if we removed the translation completely then people who want it will not be able to get it. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
Hi Eyal, El dl 29 de 06 de 2009 a les 19:42 +0300, en/na Eyal Levin va escriure: > > > 2009/6/29 David Planella > Hi translators, > > Recently an issue has come up involving Hebrew translations > for CLI > applications [1] [2]. In a nutshell: > > * GNOME Terminal (with vte as the standard terminal emulator) > cannot > correctly display RTL text [3] (the direction is reversed). > Other > terminal applications (e.g. Konsole) might do a better job, > but none of > them can get it working perfectly. > > * This is a hard problem to solve [4]. > > * Using BiCon [5] inside VTE might be an alternative. > Question? What's > the status of the project? > > * This does not only affect Hebrew users, but all of those > with RTL > (right-to-left) languages. > > * On Debian some applications use a workaround whereby > translations are > disabled by removing the 'he' language code from the > po/LINGUAS file > (see this example on apt [6]). In this way, apt translations > are not > simply discarded, but they are not shown in the UI. > > So here are my questions: > > * Eyal, Yaron, as Hebrew Translation coordinators in > Ubuntu: if we >were to take the same workaround as in Debian, would > you be >happy with the translations of CLI applications not > being used? > > * You have to take into account that GUI > applications >(which if I'm not mistaken would be able to > display >those texts correctly) sometimes use the > translations >from CLI applications (as an example > update-manager >using apt's translations), so if we disable the >translations the GUI applications would also > display the >messages in English (i.e. not translated). > > I think that as a rule we should not translate CLI applications into > Hebrew (or any RTL) for the default installation of Ubuntu. If > someone would like a BIDI terminal he can use a solution like mlterm > [1]. > Thanks for your reply. It is currently not possible to disable translations of a particular template for a particular language in Launchpad. What we can do at the moment is the following: * In terms of discouraging CLI translations: it is best to leave this to each particular team to best communicate it to translators. A good way to do this is through the translation team's guidelines, which I see your team is using already. There each team can include a list of translations which should not be done and an explanation why, etc. * In terms of disabling the use of CLI translations: we could consider disabling them at the package level as in Debian (removing the language code in the po/LINGUAS file for those packages which use it), or we could see if we can blacklist the imports/exports of those applications in Launchpad. In any case, I'd like to have more feedback from other translation teams which use RTL before even considering this workaround. As English is the lowest common denominator language in the list, could you maybe move the list of CLI applications you are considering to disable from this wiki [1] to your space in English the Ubuntu wiki [2]? By the way, is apt the only application for which Hebrew translations are disabled in Debian? Are there others which are disabled, and if so, could you provide links to the bug reports? If we were going to go this way, there is no point in duplicating work. Regards, David. [1] http://bit.ly/PI0Ut [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHebrewTranslators -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com www.ubuntu.com signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge signada digitalment -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
2009/6/29 David Planella
> Hi translators,
>
> Recently an issue has come up involving Hebrew translations for CLI
> applications [1] [2]. In a nutshell:
>
> * GNOME Terminal (with vte as the standard terminal emulator) cannot
> correctly display RTL text [3] (the direction is reversed). Other
> terminal applications (e.g. Konsole) might do a better job, but none of
> them can get it working perfectly.
>
> * This is a hard problem to solve [4].
>
> * Using BiCon [5] inside VTE might be an alternative. Question? What's
> the status of the project?
>
> * This does not only affect Hebrew users, but all of those with RTL
> (right-to-left) languages.
>
> * On Debian some applications use a workaround whereby translations are
> disabled by removing the 'he' language code from the po/LINGUAS file
> (see this example on apt [6]). In this way, apt translations are not
> simply discarded, but they are not shown in the UI.
>
> So here are my questions:
>
> * Eyal, Yaron, as Hebrew Translation coordinators in Ubuntu: if we
>were to take the same workaround as in Debian, would you be
>happy with the translations of CLI applications not being used?
>
> * You have to take into account that GUI applications
>(which if I'm not mistaken would be able to display
>those texts correctly) sometimes use the translations
>from CLI applications (as an example update-manager
>using apt's translations), so if we disable the
>translations the GUI applications would also display the
>messages in English (i.e. not translated).
I think that as a rule we should not translate CLI applications into
Hebrew (or any RTL) for the default installation of Ubuntu. If
someone would like a BIDI terminal he can use a solution like mlterm [1].
If we have collisions with other GUI apps it should be taken care of
separately
afterwards.
In that case, the Debian workaround, although bringing new
challenges, is better than the current situation.
> * If we were to consider this, we would need a list of CLI
>applications for which the translations should be
>disabled
> * There is currently no way in Launchpad to disable the
>translation templates for individual languages, so you'd
>have to make sure you explicitly mention in your style
>guide that CLI applications (probably with a list
>containing all of them) should for now not be
>translated.
We actually have that kind of list [2]. It is not perfect, so I guess a
more complete list in the wiki [3] would be a good idea indeed.
Regards,
Eyal
[1] http://mlterm.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://bit.ly/PI0Ut
[3] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/
>
>
> * Danilo, Henninge, Jeroen, Arne: if we were to consider this
>approach of disabling the translations, would it be possible to
>block 'he' translations a) at the import level (import queue)
>and b) at the export level ('he' langpacks). Note: I'm not
>saying this would be the best approach, I'm just trying to
>assess which options we've got and how doable they are.
>
> * All other RTL translators/users: do you consider this an issue
>in your language? If so, are there any workarounds you are using
>which you'd like to share?
>
> As I said, this is an issue affecting not only Hebrew users, so before
> we take any decision in how we can best solve this, it would be good to
> have some more feedback.
>
> Regards,
> David.
>
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/325324
> [2]
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/389428
> [3] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490
> [4] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490#c9
> [5] http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon
> [6] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=313283
>
> --
> David Planella
> Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
> david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com
> www.ubuntu.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-translators mailing list
> ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
>
>
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[Fwd: Some Kubuntu translations love]
Sorry, I somehow did not manage to CC ubuntu-translators on this. Forwarding the original message: Missatge reenviat De: David Planella Per a: kubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com CC: ubuntu-translation-coordina...@lists.launchpad.net Assumpte: Some Kubuntu translations love Data: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:03:00 +0200 Hi all, Following what we discussed at UDS regarding improving Kubuntu translations, I'd like to propose a couple of things with which we can kickstart the process: 1) Getting translation templates into shape As it has been pointed out before, some of the Kubuntu translation templates in Launchpad are not up-to-date, and there is currently no way to track their changes automatically. Some time ago the Ubuntu Translation Coordinators (UTC) team [1] was created in order to let the translation community members to completely manage translation templates without having to depend on the Launchpad Translations team. What we in the UTC team can do now is to manually correct those templates. Therefore we'd like to start working with the Kubuntu community to get a list of current KDE translation templates from the source packages in order to compare them with what we've got in Launchpad (and maybe in the future be able to provide better heuristics to the LP Translations team to auto-import KDE templates). Needless to say, we will welcome anyone with an interest and experience in KDE translations to join us in the UTC team as well. Arne Goetje, Ubuntu i18n/l10n Engineer, member of the UTC team (and temporary Ubuntu Translations Coordinator in the past) will send a follow up e-mail to this thread with the technical details. Another thing I should mention is that we're going to open the Karmic translations very soon (this or next week), and it would be great to have such a list very soon, so that the amount of manual work after the opening would be reduced to a minimum. I'm not sure whether this will be doable in such a short time, but I thought I should at least mention it. 2) Kubuntu Translations Day I'd like to propose a Kubuntu Translations Day in #kubuntu-devel. The purpose of this event will be to test everything around Kubuntu Translations and make sure any issues get detected and fixed well before release. If you'd like to propose any other activities (e.g. doing actual translations), please feel free to do so. I've asked the Launchpad Translations guys and Arne to be there, and myself and probably other members of the Ubuntu Translations Coordinators team will be there as well. The idea is to build upon the work of having rearranged and updated the translation templates, and also to have released at least the first language pack in Karmic, so that translations can be tested. In order to give time to everyone involved in organising this, I propose a tentative date in a month's time: * WHAT: Kubuntu Translations Day * WHERE: #kubuntu-devel on Freenode * WHEN: Wed 29th July 2009 Thoughts, suggestions, ideas, etc. will be very welcome. Cheers, David. [1] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-translation-coordinator -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com www.ubuntu.com signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge signada digitalment -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Hebrew CLI translations
Hi translators,
Recently an issue has come up involving Hebrew translations for CLI
applications [1] [2]. In a nutshell:
* GNOME Terminal (with vte as the standard terminal emulator) cannot
correctly display RTL text [3] (the direction is reversed). Other
terminal applications (e.g. Konsole) might do a better job, but none of
them can get it working perfectly.
* This is a hard problem to solve [4].
* Using BiCon [5] inside VTE might be an alternative. Question? What's
the status of the project?
* This does not only affect Hebrew users, but all of those with RTL
(right-to-left) languages.
* On Debian some applications use a workaround whereby translations are
disabled by removing the 'he' language code from the po/LINGUAS file
(see this example on apt [6]). In this way, apt translations are not
simply discarded, but they are not shown in the UI.
So here are my questions:
* Eyal, Yaron, as Hebrew Translation coordinators in Ubuntu: if we
were to take the same workaround as in Debian, would you be
happy with the translations of CLI applications not being used?
* You have to take into account that GUI applications
(which if I'm not mistaken would be able to display
those texts correctly) sometimes use the translations
from CLI applications (as an example update-manager
using apt's translations), so if we disable the
translations the GUI applications would also display the
messages in English (i.e. not translated).
* If we were to consider this, we would need a list of CLI
applications for which the translations should be
disabled
* There is currently no way in Launchpad to disable the
translation templates for individual languages, so you'd
have to make sure you explicitly mention in your style
guide that CLI applications (probably with a list
containing all of them) should for now not be
translated.
* Danilo, Henninge, Jeroen, Arne: if we were to consider this
approach of disabling the translations, would it be possible to
block 'he' translations a) at the import level (import queue)
and b) at the export level ('he' langpacks). Note: I'm not
saying this would be the best approach, I'm just trying to
assess which options we've got and how doable they are.
* All other RTL translators/users: do you consider this an issue
in your language? If so, are there any workarounds you are using
which you'd like to share?
As I said, this is an issue affecting not only Hebrew users, so before
we take any decision in how we can best solve this, it would be good to
have some more feedback.
Regards,
David.
[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/325324
[2]
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/389428
[3] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490
[4] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490#c9
[5] http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon
[6] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=313283
--
David Planella
Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com
www.ubuntu.com
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