Re: [Fwd: Re: Hebrew CLI translations]
2009/7/1 David Planella > Forwarding to the list, since it didn't seem to make it > > Eyal, I think at least gdebi should be removed from the list, since it > is a GUI application. > Ok, removed from list. Eyal -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
[Fwd: Re: Hebrew CLI translations]
Forwarding to the list, since it didn't seem to make it Eyal, I think at least gdebi should be removed from the list, since it is a GUI application. Regards, David. Missatge reenviat De: Eyal Levin Per a: David Planella Assumpte: Re: Hebrew CLI translations Data: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 02:07:08 +0300 As English is the lowest common denominator language in the list, could you maybe move the list of CLI applications you are considering to disable from this wiki [1] to your space in English the Ubuntu wiki [2]? Moved. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHebrewTranslators/CLI Regards, Eyal -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com www.ubuntu.com signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge signada digitalment -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
У пон, 29. 06 2009. у 21:49 +0300, Eyal Levin пише: > For the solution of adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' we concluded > that it is not something we want new users to deal with in a fresh > Ubuntu installation. Not sure how Ubuntu does this, but is this not something that can live in language-support-he package and be set-up for anyone using Hebrew? Then, those who do want translations in their terminal (granted, more technically advanced users), they would have to do the opposite. Cheers, Danilo -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 20:45, Khaled Hosny wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:18:16PM +0200, David Planella wrote: > > * In terms of disabling the use of CLI translations: we could consider > > disabling them at the package level as in Debian (removing the language > > code in the po/LINGUAS file for those packages which use it), or we > > could see if we can blacklist the imports/exports of those applications > > in Launchpad. > > I don't think that is a good idea, it should be left to translation team > to decide whether or not translate such applications, there are several > ways to display RTL in terminals (Acon, BiCon, Mlterm, Pterm, Konsole) > for people who wont it, some one not wanting translation can easily set > his locale to English (e.g. by adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' to his > ~/.bashrc, which won't affect the GUI), but if we removed the > translation completely then people who want it will not be able to get > it. It is agreed that each translation team should choose it's own path regarding CLI translation process. For the Hebrew team the initial problem is that while we agreed on the desired solution, it couldn't be executed. We translated CLI templates in Launchpad into English but every new release our translations were overridden. This is why the bugs were opened in the first place. For the solution of adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' we concluded that it is not something we want new users to deal with in a fresh Ubuntu installation. Eyal -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:18:16PM +0200, David Planella wrote: > * In terms of disabling the use of CLI translations: we could consider > disabling them at the package level as in Debian (removing the language > code in the po/LINGUAS file for those packages which use it), or we > could see if we can blacklist the imports/exports of those applications > in Launchpad. I don't think that is a good idea, it should be left to translation team to decide whether or not translate such applications, there are several ways to display RTL in terminals (Acon, BiCon, Mlterm, Pterm, Konsole) for people who wont it, some one not wanting translation can easily set his locale to English (e.g. by adding 'export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8' to his ~/.bashrc, which won't affect the GUI), but if we removed the translation completely then people who want it will not be able to get it. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
Hi Eyal, El dl 29 de 06 de 2009 a les 19:42 +0300, en/na Eyal Levin va escriure: > > > 2009/6/29 David Planella > Hi translators, > > Recently an issue has come up involving Hebrew translations > for CLI > applications [1] [2]. In a nutshell: > > * GNOME Terminal (with vte as the standard terminal emulator) > cannot > correctly display RTL text [3] (the direction is reversed). > Other > terminal applications (e.g. Konsole) might do a better job, > but none of > them can get it working perfectly. > > * This is a hard problem to solve [4]. > > * Using BiCon [5] inside VTE might be an alternative. > Question? What's > the status of the project? > > * This does not only affect Hebrew users, but all of those > with RTL > (right-to-left) languages. > > * On Debian some applications use a workaround whereby > translations are > disabled by removing the 'he' language code from the > po/LINGUAS file > (see this example on apt [6]). In this way, apt translations > are not > simply discarded, but they are not shown in the UI. > > So here are my questions: > > * Eyal, Yaron, as Hebrew Translation coordinators in > Ubuntu: if we >were to take the same workaround as in Debian, would > you be >happy with the translations of CLI applications not > being used? > > * You have to take into account that GUI > applications >(which if I'm not mistaken would be able to > display >those texts correctly) sometimes use the > translations >from CLI applications (as an example > update-manager >using apt's translations), so if we disable the >translations the GUI applications would also > display the >messages in English (i.e. not translated). > > I think that as a rule we should not translate CLI applications into > Hebrew (or any RTL) for the default installation of Ubuntu. If > someone would like a BIDI terminal he can use a solution like mlterm > [1]. > Thanks for your reply. It is currently not possible to disable translations of a particular template for a particular language in Launchpad. What we can do at the moment is the following: * In terms of discouraging CLI translations: it is best to leave this to each particular team to best communicate it to translators. A good way to do this is through the translation team's guidelines, which I see your team is using already. There each team can include a list of translations which should not be done and an explanation why, etc. * In terms of disabling the use of CLI translations: we could consider disabling them at the package level as in Debian (removing the language code in the po/LINGUAS file for those packages which use it), or we could see if we can blacklist the imports/exports of those applications in Launchpad. In any case, I'd like to have more feedback from other translation teams which use RTL before even considering this workaround. As English is the lowest common denominator language in the list, could you maybe move the list of CLI applications you are considering to disable from this wiki [1] to your space in English the Ubuntu wiki [2]? By the way, is apt the only application for which Hebrew translations are disabled in Debian? Are there others which are disabled, and if so, could you provide links to the bug reports? If we were going to go this way, there is no point in duplicating work. Regards, David. [1] http://bit.ly/PI0Ut [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHebrewTranslators -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com www.ubuntu.com signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge signada digitalment -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Hebrew CLI translations
2009/6/29 David Planella
> Hi translators,
>
> Recently an issue has come up involving Hebrew translations for CLI
> applications [1] [2]. In a nutshell:
>
> * GNOME Terminal (with vte as the standard terminal emulator) cannot
> correctly display RTL text [3] (the direction is reversed). Other
> terminal applications (e.g. Konsole) might do a better job, but none of
> them can get it working perfectly.
>
> * This is a hard problem to solve [4].
>
> * Using BiCon [5] inside VTE might be an alternative. Question? What's
> the status of the project?
>
> * This does not only affect Hebrew users, but all of those with RTL
> (right-to-left) languages.
>
> * On Debian some applications use a workaround whereby translations are
> disabled by removing the 'he' language code from the po/LINGUAS file
> (see this example on apt [6]). In this way, apt translations are not
> simply discarded, but they are not shown in the UI.
>
> So here are my questions:
>
> * Eyal, Yaron, as Hebrew Translation coordinators in Ubuntu: if we
>were to take the same workaround as in Debian, would you be
>happy with the translations of CLI applications not being used?
>
> * You have to take into account that GUI applications
>(which if I'm not mistaken would be able to display
>those texts correctly) sometimes use the translations
>from CLI applications (as an example update-manager
>using apt's translations), so if we disable the
>translations the GUI applications would also display the
>messages in English (i.e. not translated).
I think that as a rule we should not translate CLI applications into
Hebrew (or any RTL) for the default installation of Ubuntu. If
someone would like a BIDI terminal he can use a solution like mlterm [1].
If we have collisions with other GUI apps it should be taken care of
separately
afterwards.
In that case, the Debian workaround, although bringing new
challenges, is better than the current situation.
> * If we were to consider this, we would need a list of CLI
>applications for which the translations should be
>disabled
> * There is currently no way in Launchpad to disable the
>translation templates for individual languages, so you'd
>have to make sure you explicitly mention in your style
>guide that CLI applications (probably with a list
>containing all of them) should for now not be
>translated.
We actually have that kind of list [2]. It is not perfect, so I guess a
more complete list in the wiki [3] would be a good idea indeed.
Regards,
Eyal
[1] http://mlterm.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://bit.ly/PI0Ut
[3] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/
>
>
> * Danilo, Henninge, Jeroen, Arne: if we were to consider this
>approach of disabling the translations, would it be possible to
>block 'he' translations a) at the import level (import queue)
>and b) at the export level ('he' langpacks). Note: I'm not
>saying this would be the best approach, I'm just trying to
>assess which options we've got and how doable they are.
>
> * All other RTL translators/users: do you consider this an issue
>in your language? If so, are there any workarounds you are using
>which you'd like to share?
>
> As I said, this is an issue affecting not only Hebrew users, so before
> we take any decision in how we can best solve this, it would be good to
> have some more feedback.
>
> Regards,
> David.
>
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/325324
> [2]
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/389428
> [3] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490
> [4] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490#c9
> [5] http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon
> [6] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=313283
>
> --
> David Planella
> Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
> david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com
> www.ubuntu.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-translators mailing list
> ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
>
>
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Hebrew CLI translations
Hi translators,
Recently an issue has come up involving Hebrew translations for CLI
applications [1] [2]. In a nutshell:
* GNOME Terminal (with vte as the standard terminal emulator) cannot
correctly display RTL text [3] (the direction is reversed). Other
terminal applications (e.g. Konsole) might do a better job, but none of
them can get it working perfectly.
* This is a hard problem to solve [4].
* Using BiCon [5] inside VTE might be an alternative. Question? What's
the status of the project?
* This does not only affect Hebrew users, but all of those with RTL
(right-to-left) languages.
* On Debian some applications use a workaround whereby translations are
disabled by removing the 'he' language code from the po/LINGUAS file
(see this example on apt [6]). In this way, apt translations are not
simply discarded, but they are not shown in the UI.
So here are my questions:
* Eyal, Yaron, as Hebrew Translation coordinators in Ubuntu: if we
were to take the same workaround as in Debian, would you be
happy with the translations of CLI applications not being used?
* You have to take into account that GUI applications
(which if I'm not mistaken would be able to display
those texts correctly) sometimes use the translations
from CLI applications (as an example update-manager
using apt's translations), so if we disable the
translations the GUI applications would also display the
messages in English (i.e. not translated).
* If we were to consider this, we would need a list of CLI
applications for which the translations should be
disabled
* There is currently no way in Launchpad to disable the
translation templates for individual languages, so you'd
have to make sure you explicitly mention in your style
guide that CLI applications (probably with a list
containing all of them) should for now not be
translated.
* Danilo, Henninge, Jeroen, Arne: if we were to consider this
approach of disabling the translations, would it be possible to
block 'he' translations a) at the import level (import queue)
and b) at the export level ('he' langpacks). Note: I'm not
saying this would be the best approach, I'm just trying to
assess which options we've got and how doable they are.
* All other RTL translators/users: do you consider this an issue
in your language? If so, are there any workarounds you are using
which you'd like to share?
As I said, this is an issue affecting not only Hebrew users, so before
we take any decision in how we can best solve this, it would be good to
have some more feedback.
Regards,
David.
[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/325324
[2]
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/389428
[3] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490
[4] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321490#c9
[5] http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon
[6] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=313283
--
David Planella
Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com
www.ubuntu.com
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