Re: Localisation of Ubuntu in Piedmontese language
Il giorno dom, 19/10/2008 alle 20.26 +0300, Bèrto ëd Sèra ha scritto: > so far I'm doing things in launchpad, yes. There is registered team > (only me being active for the start). Yeah, found it. But remember, if you want to actually translate Ubuntu, you have to ask to the Translations team to register your team as one of the Ubuntu Translators Team [1] (I don't see it there). You can do that from here: https://answers.launchpad.net/rosetta/+addquestion > My main problem so far is in bringing up a procedure to use the things > I make and test them. I'm logged in all day long, so if I start from > translating stuff like the desktop and Mozilla this makes for most of > what the people use. Even Mozilla/Firefox is a tough task by itself. Firefox is not even using the gettext infrastructure, so there is no easy way, that I'm aware of, of downloading the PO file and testing it with a working version. > For the moment being I'll remain on the launchpad and learn how to > install the .po files I make on my box and on the beta test team (I > suppose this is possible, is it?). Sure it is, as long as your locale (pms i think) is set up on your machine and you can actually use it, if I'm not wrong. Downloading a PO (or even a MO) from Launchpad and testing it is just a matter of a couple command line instructions. But, again, you need your locale up and running. > >some of the translations would be "lost" in Launchpad. > > I hope I can still pass the .POs, can I? Absolutely! You can do that, and you should do it! For "lost" I mean that some pieces of the system, if translated only through Launchpad, will never make it to the final release. [1] https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators -- Milo Casagrande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: Questa è una parte del messaggio firmata digitalmente -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Localisation of Ubuntu in Piedmontese language
Hi all, I'll try (and hope) to answer to all the emails with this one... Il giorno dom, 19/10/2008 alle 13.48 +0100, Matthew East ha scritto: > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Bèrto ëd Sèra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi! > > > > FYI, piedmontese is taught in public schools and recognized by the Regional > > Laws. It is a growing part of the public education scheme and almost 5.000 > > children went through the courses last year, but we obviously need tools for > > that. There are plans to distribute free hardware to the kids to help them > > in their learning process and we need a localised OS for that. This is what > > I'm working for. This sounds like an interesting project and noble one too. From previous Sabine email, it looks like you've already translated some parts of Ubuntu in Piemontese, at least I suppose you already created a team in Launchpad. For *really* translating Ubuntu you will also need to contact the Translations team to set up the final bits: like ISO code, plural forms, etc., then they can grant you access and you can start translating Ubuntu with Launchap. With this in mind, I also suggest you to contact other translations team like GNOME, Debian, KDE and the Translation Project, register your team and the ISO code for Piemontese. If you really want to translate a desktop environment like GNOME, you should do that under the GNOME translation team umbrella. Other pieces of the distribution fall into different teams. You can still use Launchpad if you want to, and probably it's easier for you right now to have a central place where you can work, but you should pass all your translations to GNOME and the other projects for other people and distributions to benefit from them. Launchpad can't handle this information exchange for you and some of the translations would be "lost" in Launchpad. > > Yet, if this has to become a "political" issue, I'd rather opt out of Ubuntu > > immediately. I'm honestly quite tired to be assigned a political view I do > > not have > > First of all, my email was an expression of my own opinion, rather > than of the Ubuntu project. There isn't any policy about dialects that > I'm aware of in the project. Secondly, note that I didn't assign any > political view to you in my email... And my email itself wasn't > political in nature. I was asking the question of whether it would be > beneficial to anyone to have Ubuntu localised in a dialect, in > circumstances where the focus of Italian education is on the national > language. > > There are difficult questions of where to draw the line when it comes > to languages and dialects. Official recognition, education and whether > the language has any general written culture are all relevant > considerations. From this POV I agree with Matt. I'm Italian, but I don't personally see the beneficial of translating into Italian dialects/minor languages, mainly for practical reason than philosophical or historic ones... We can argue for ages about these POVs, but we would solve nothing. Said that, I see you would like to get a 25% of the distro localized in 3-4 months... that's a though task! I don't know how many people are involved or if they would be involved 8 hours/day, 5 days/week, but 25% of only the GNOME Dekstop is: "a lot of strings"... I think you would also like to translate OpenOffice, and that's huge (for OO you should contact the PLIO (Progetto Linguistico Italiano OpenOffice) and ask them how to handle all the translation project). I don't know how concrete is your translation team, but I would start by writing guidelines and glossaries, then create a list of the most common pieces of software of the GNOME Desktop and prioritize them based on importance in the environment, common use or most used application. But, as I said, you have first to define your team in Launchpad and set up all the necessary infrastructure (locale, ISO code...) before you can start using your own translations. -- Milo Casagrande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: Questa è una parte del messaggio firmata digitalmente -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Localisation of Ubuntu in Piedmontese language
Bèrto, I lack the linguistic knowledge of the relationship between Piedmontese and Italian, but on the technical side I will simply point out that when political issues arose with regards to the relationship between the Catalan language and its Valencian dialect, the solution adopted was to change the general denomination from Catalan to Catalan-Valencian and define a new locale in the form [EMAIL PROTECTED] That is, we have got the ca_ES.UTF-8 (and its variants depending on which land it is spoken: ca_FR, ca_IT, ca_AD) and [EMAIL PROTECTED], which speakers of the dialect can choose if they like. We only translate the Catalan language, and the @valencia dialect translation is done via script. That said, the @valencia is relatively new, and you will see that for example in the GNOME project [1], although defined, there are not many translations for this dialect yet. I must repeat though, that we were forced to do that due to «political» rather than linguistic reasons, and that I do not know whether this applies to your language. I am only mentioning this in case it can be of any help. In addition of Ubuntu, the people at Debian might be able to help as well. Regards, David. [1] http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/gnome-2-24 2008/10/19 Matthew East <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Dear Bèrto, > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Bèrto ëd Sèra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Hi! >> >> FYI, piedmontese is taught in public schools and recognized by the Regional >> Laws. It is a growing part of the public education scheme and almost 5.000 >> children went through the courses last year, but we obviously need tools for >> that. There are plans to distribute free hardware to the kids to help them >> in their learning process and we need a localised OS for that. This is what >> I'm working for. >> >> Yet, if this has to become a "political" issue, I'd rather opt out of Ubuntu >> immediately. I'm honestly quite tired to be assigned a political view I do >> not have > > First of all, my email was an expression of my own opinion, rather > than of the Ubuntu project. There isn't any policy about dialects that > I'm aware of in the project. Secondly, note that I didn't assign any > political view to you in my email... And my email itself wasn't > political in nature. I was asking the question of whether it would be > beneficial to anyone to have Ubuntu localised in a dialect, in > circumstances where the focus of Italian education is on the national > language. > > There are difficult questions of where to draw the line when it comes > to languages and dialects. Official recognition, education and whether > the language has any general written culture are all relevant > considerations. > > The education programme that you've described above sounds very > interesting: do you have a link to it which describes the initiative? > > -- > Matthew East > http://www.mdke.org > gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF > -- > ubuntu-translators mailing list > ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators > -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Localisation of Ubuntu in Piedmontese language
Dear Bèrto, On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Bèrto ëd Sèra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > > FYI, piedmontese is taught in public schools and recognized by the Regional > Laws. It is a growing part of the public education scheme and almost 5.000 > children went through the courses last year, but we obviously need tools for > that. There are plans to distribute free hardware to the kids to help them > in their learning process and we need a localised OS for that. This is what > I'm working for. > > Yet, if this has to become a "political" issue, I'd rather opt out of Ubuntu > immediately. I'm honestly quite tired to be assigned a political view I do > not have First of all, my email was an expression of my own opinion, rather than of the Ubuntu project. There isn't any policy about dialects that I'm aware of in the project. Secondly, note that I didn't assign any political view to you in my email... And my email itself wasn't political in nature. I was asking the question of whether it would be beneficial to anyone to have Ubuntu localised in a dialect, in circumstances where the focus of Italian education is on the national language. There are difficult questions of where to draw the line when it comes to languages and dialects. Official recognition, education and whether the language has any general written culture are all relevant considerations. The education programme that you've described above sounds very interesting: do you have a link to it which describes the initiative? -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Localisation of Ubuntu in Piedmontese language
Sabine, I'm copying in the ubuntu-translators mailing list, and the Italian translators mailing list which are the most appropriate places to have this discussion. I'm also copying in the Italian Community Council for their thoughts. Please see my reponse below. On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Sabine Emmy Eller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Matt, > > Burgundavia in the LoCo chat told me that probably you are the best > person to talk to right now. > > Bèrto, who is copied in this e-mail, has already localized some bit of > Ubuntu into Piedmontese language using Launchpad. Now once we have some > files ready how can they be committed? How can we get them integrated > into the Ubuntu distro? > > Piedmontese is one of the languages we work with - others will include > Neapolitan, Sicilian, Mainfränkisch, Diola, Serrer and step by step > further less resourced languages. > > While we, over time, will hopefully get contacts to people who can help > with many of the less resourced languages, we need someone who can help > on the technical end to get the translations into the distro. > > Of course it is obvious that we start to do things step by step, > initially ourselves, to see where there could be problems for other > people and to be able to explain. > > We really hope that you can help us with Piedmontese. The starting point for information about translation of Ubuntu is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu In particular, information about setting up a new language can be found here: https://help.launchpad.net/FAQ/Translations However, I think we should have a careful discussion about whether it is genuinely appropriate to localise Ubuntu in Piedmontese, Sicilian, Neapolitan and so on, which are essentially dialects. I know that there are plenty of linguistic arguments why these dialects are important and why some (from a linguistic point of view) may be considered languages in their own right. I'm also a passionate believer that the dialects form a vital part of Italy's culture. However, the Italian state classifies these languages as dialects, and not languages. Italian is the language which is taught in schools. All Italians who learn how to read, are taught standard Italian. As far as I'm aware, the number of Italians who could read a dialect but *not* standard Italian is either zero, or else incredibly few. Road signs are not translated into dialect. For that reason, I don't think that it's appropriate to localise Ubuntu into Italian dialects. The number of people it would benefit is minimal and I don't think it would benefit education at all because dialects are generally not part of Italian education. They reflect a different part of Italian culture. We could easily have a long and interesting discussion about the importance and role of dialects in culture and society, and the lack of a genuine distinction between dialects and languages, but in the end I don't think that is relevant to this question. The important point is that Italian is the language taught in schools all over Italy, and that the Italian state does not recognise dialects as official languages [1]. [1] Although the Italian state does recognise Friulano, Ladino and Sardo as minority languages, they are also not taught in schools to the best of my knowledge. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
