Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Den 27-03-2012 11:44, Hannie Dumoleyn skrev: Op 26-03-12 17:10, Ask Hjorth Larsen schreef: Dear translators and documentation people On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Timo Jyrinki wrote: 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu translations should simply be not visible until the final template is uploaded? Or this current system still better? I think one of the biggest invisible problems in Ubuntu translations making people go away (if they notice it) is the fact that work is wasted. Most of the people translating do not know that probably a lot of their translations will not be used if they've been translating ubuntu-docs in the last month or so, or even this coming week. This would not be such a big problem it is today without being combined with the lack of supporting fuzzy strings in LP. Then when the docs team do a cleanup of commas, articles or word orders (I'd assume there is always a bunch of those in addition to total rewrites), quality translations that would still have a lot value (either 100% match or something easily fixed to match the new form) are being lost. This is especially big problem in ubuntu-docs, since it has long strings, and a single small change anywhere will always reset a big amount of translated text compared to application UI texts that are usually much shorter. With the new precise ubuntu-docs template, I see that while the total number of strings have stayed roughly the same (+100 strings), the number of untranslated strings have raised from 358 to 1086. What I personally will do is: - now very quickly save the current Ubuntu precise's ubuntu-docs PO file - when the new ubuntu-docs gets to precise proper, fuzzy match the downloaded PO file to the new template manually with gettext tools - in case of simple word order / punctuation / etc changes simply unfuzzy or make a little fix in the translation - upload the new PO with "saved" translations back to Launchpad But I'd estimate that not many of the languages have the luck of someone doing this work. In the other language teams, there might be frustrated people noticing that the hard work they've done (translating ubuntu-docs is really hard work since there is so much of it) has for a part disappeared. Not that this would be a new problem of course, but what do you think about the template hiding idea or do you have any other ideas to help this problem (other than contributing to LP code)? -Timo I apologize in advance for the considerable amount of grumbling below. But I think we have big problems. I think Launchpad should be entirely disabled for docs translations. The lack of fuzzy matching makes Launchpad almost useless for anything but UI translations. The alternative is to use e.g. a bzr archive to maintain the translations. This requires more technical knowledge, but we (translations coordinators) can help individual translators with it, and actually get the job done. We are qualified to use tools like bzr, msgmerge and other things to make sure that work is not lost. But right now I (as a coordinator) am quite powerless to stop the waste of time. The only thing I can do is to not recommend that people work on certain things. I cannot even put a big red sticker on the ubuntu docs page on Launchpad saying "don't translate this". I have only indirect means of communication (e-mails) around Launchpad. This makes everything very complicated and not something I look forward to dealing with. There is only one thing which is worse than not getting a voluntary contribution due to it being too difficult, and that is to get the contribution and then throw it away. Because that contributor will not come back. I and others have previously requested fuzzy matching and some other IMHO essential features on Launchpad, but there seems to be no plans to implement any of it or even recognize the importance. So please disable ubuntu docs in Launchpad. Best regards Ask Hello Ask, I fully understand your grumbling, but for the moment we have to make do with what we have. Unfortunately. As long as we just play along "make do with what we've got" and continue to contribute despite the obvious loss of work and the apparent disregard for volunteer contributor time, nothing will ever change (at least if the past 3 years are any indication). Regards Kenneth Because I firmly believe in the translation of Ubuntu Desktop Guide, I translated most of the Oneiric version on LP. And when I click F1 on my desktop (Oneiric), I am so proud to see that almost everything is in Dutch now. Regards, Hannie -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Hello Ask, I fully understand your grumbling, but for the moment we have to make do with what we have. Because I firmly believe in the translation of Ubuntu Desktop Guide, I translated most of the Oneiric version on LP. And when I click F1 on my desktop (Oneiric), I am so proud to see that almost everything is in Dutch now. Regards, Hannie Thanks Hannie for your feedback and your awesome work translating the guide, that's the spirit! Cheers, David. Sorry for my grumbling in the other mail I sent earlier today to the list on this subject. I know everyone is doing his best and if it is technically too complicated, or we lack manpower, then it is just too bad. I still enjoy translating the docs, and I hope our work will not be in vain. But yes, I am frustrated about all the extra work and I hope one day it will be possible in LP the fuzzies can be transferred to a new version. Thanks for your kind words. It does keep the spirit high :) Hannie -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 03/04/12 12:59, En/na Hannie Dumoleyn ha escrit: >> As I said, I'm not particularly in favour of disabling them, but I'd >> like to hear what other translators have got to say on this, and if >> they've got any further ideas. >> >> Thanks again for the honest feedback and for raising this issue. >> >> Cheers, >> David. >> >> > Here is a reaction from a frustrated translator ): Hi Hannie, Thanks for your e-mail. I think at this point we all have realized changes in documentation strings are an issue for translations. In terms of feedback, rather than more examples that this is an issue, I was thinking rather of ideas on how we could minimize it. That said, let me reply to the points below: > It is a hell of a job to get previous translations back, but since > fuzzies are not supported in Launchpad the only way to get them back is > by copying and pasting. As from the comments I understand this translator knows how to use the gettext tools, here's a suggestion to get back fuzzy strings quickly: 1. Download the PO file for your language from Launchpad (nl.po) 2. Download the POT file from Launchpad (ubuntu-help.pot) 3. Run the following command: msgmerge nl.po ubuntu-help.pot > nl-fuzzies.po That should then give you a file with fuzzy matches. > I use a merged file, which I open in Lokalize > (more than 600 fuzzies!). While working online in LP on the Precise > version, I look in Lokalize to see if there is a fuzzy and when that is > the case I copy and paste the fuzzy to LP and make the changes. Often > they are minor, such as: top panel becomes menu bar, '.' becomes > ., item becomes file, and so on. > The amount of *extra* work cannot be expressed in hours, but in weeks > I'm afraid. > Hannie Right, apart from the fact that Launchpad hides fuzzy strings, what you are describing here is something that is outside of Launchpad and any other translations tool's control. This is due to minor changes being done to documentation and the original translations becoming obsolete. The only thing I can think of is that whenever such a trivial change is done in the original docs is done, the replacement is done on the translations (the .po files) and the template (the .pot file). That is also not without its drawbacks: - It increases the amount of work for the docs team (they'd be doing the replacements in the .po and .pot files) - String replacement in translations is very tricky, and should probably be left to translators except for the most trivial cases. Cheers, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 27/03/12 11:44, En/na Hannie Dumoleyn ha escrit: > Op 26-03-12 17:10, Ask Hjorth Larsen schreef: >> Dear translators and documentation people >> >> On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Timo Jyrinki wrote: >> >>> 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. >>> >>> What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - >>> it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? >>> >>> For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu >>> translations should simply be not visible until the final template is >>> uploaded? Or this current system still better? I think one of the >>> biggest invisible problems in Ubuntu translations making people go >>> away (if they notice it) is the fact that work is wasted. Most of the >>> people translating do not know that probably a lot of their >>> translations will not be used if they've been translating ubuntu-docs >>> in the last month or so, or even this coming week. >>> >>> This would not be such a big problem it is today without being >>> combined with the lack of supporting fuzzy strings in LP. Then when >>> the docs team do a cleanup of commas, articles or word orders (I'd >>> assume there is always a bunch of those in addition to total >>> rewrites), quality translations that would still have a lot value >>> (either 100% match or something easily fixed to match the new form) >>> are being lost. This is especially big problem in ubuntu-docs, since >>> it has long strings, and a single small change anywhere will always >>> reset a big amount of translated text compared to application UI texts >>> that are usually much shorter. >>> >>> With the new precise ubuntu-docs template, I see that while the total >>> number of strings have stayed roughly the same (+100 strings), the >>> number of untranslated strings have raised from 358 to 1086. What I >>> personally will do is: >>> - now very quickly save the current Ubuntu precise's ubuntu-docs PO file >>> - when the new ubuntu-docs gets to precise proper, fuzzy match the >>> downloaded PO file to the new template manually with gettext tools >>> - in case of simple word order / punctuation / etc changes simply >>> unfuzzy or make a little fix in the translation >>> - upload the new PO with "saved" translations back to Launchpad >>> >>> But I'd estimate that not many of the languages have the luck of >>> someone doing this work. In the other language teams, there might be >>> frustrated people noticing that the hard work they've done >>> (translating ubuntu-docs is really hard work since there is so much of >>> it) has for a part disappeared. >>> >>> Not that this would be a new problem of course, but what do you think >>> about the template hiding idea or do you have any other ideas to help >>> this problem (other than contributing to LP code)? >>> >>> -Timo >> >> I apologize in advance for the considerable amount of grumbling below. >> But I think we have big problems. >> >> I think Launchpad should be entirely disabled for docs translations. >> The lack of fuzzy matching makes Launchpad almost useless for anything >> but UI translations. The alternative is to use e.g. a bzr archive to >> maintain the translations. This requires more technical knowledge, >> but we (translations coordinators) can help individual translators >> with it, and actually get the job done. We are qualified to use tools >> like bzr, msgmerge and other things to make sure that work is not >> lost. But right now I (as a coordinator) am quite powerless to stop >> the waste of time. The only thing I can do is to not recommend that >> people work on certain things. I cannot even put a big red sticker on >> the ubuntu docs page on Launchpad saying "don't translate this". I >> have only indirect means of communication (e-mails) around Launchpad. >> This makes everything very complicated and not something I look >> forward to dealing with. >> >> There is only one thing which is worse than not getting a voluntary >> contribution due to it being too difficult, and that is to get the >> contribution and then throw it away. Because that contributor will >> not come back. >> >> I and others have previously requested fuzzy matching and some other >> IMHO essential features on Launchpad, but there seems to be no plans >> to implement any of it or even recognize the importance. >> >> So please disable ubuntu docs in Launchpad. >> >> Best regards >> Ask >> > Hello Ask, > I fully understand your grumbling, but for the moment we have to make do > with what we have. > Because I firmly believe in the translation of Ubuntu Desktop Guide, I > translated most of the Oneiric version on LP. And when I click F1 on my > desktop (Oneiric), I am so proud to see that almost everything is in > Dutch now. > Regards, > Hannie > Thanks Hannie for your feedback and your awesome work translating the guide, that's the spirit! Cheers, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu T
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 26/03/12 17:10, En/na Ask Hjorth Larsen ha escrit: > Dear translators and documentation people > > On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Timo Jyrinki wrote: > >> 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : >>> I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up >>> translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. >> >> What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - >> it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? >> >> For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu >> translations should simply be not visible until the final template is >> uploaded? Or this current system still better? I think one of the >> biggest invisible problems in Ubuntu translations making people go >> away (if they notice it) is the fact that work is wasted. Most of the >> people translating do not know that probably a lot of their >> translations will not be used if they've been translating ubuntu-docs >> in the last month or so, or even this coming week. >> >> This would not be such a big problem it is today without being >> combined with the lack of supporting fuzzy strings in LP. Then when >> the docs team do a cleanup of commas, articles or word orders (I'd >> assume there is always a bunch of those in addition to total >> rewrites), quality translations that would still have a lot value >> (either 100% match or something easily fixed to match the new form) >> are being lost. This is especially big problem in ubuntu-docs, since >> it has long strings, and a single small change anywhere will always >> reset a big amount of translated text compared to application UI texts >> that are usually much shorter. >> >> With the new precise ubuntu-docs template, I see that while the total >> number of strings have stayed roughly the same (+100 strings), the >> number of untranslated strings have raised from 358 to 1086. What I >> personally will do is: >> - now very quickly save the current Ubuntu precise's ubuntu-docs PO file >> - when the new ubuntu-docs gets to precise proper, fuzzy match the >> downloaded PO file to the new template manually with gettext tools >> - in case of simple word order / punctuation / etc changes simply >> unfuzzy or make a little fix in the translation >> - upload the new PO with "saved" translations back to Launchpad >> >> But I'd estimate that not many of the languages have the luck of >> someone doing this work. In the other language teams, there might be >> frustrated people noticing that the hard work they've done >> (translating ubuntu-docs is really hard work since there is so much of >> it) has for a part disappeared. >> >> Not that this would be a new problem of course, but what do you think >> about the template hiding idea or do you have any other ideas to help >> this problem (other than contributing to LP code)? >> >> -Timo > Hi Ask, I apologise for the delay in replying. > I apologize in advance for the considerable amount of grumbling below. > But I think we have big problems. > No need to apologise on your side. As long as the conversation is civil, we should encourage everyone to speak their mind to highlight problems and how to fix them. So thank you for your direct and honest feedback. > I think Launchpad should be entirely disabled for docs translations. > The lack of fuzzy matching makes Launchpad almost useless for anything > but UI translations. The alternative is to use e.g. a bzr archive to > maintain the translations. This requires more technical knowledge, but > we (translations coordinators) can help individual translators with it, > and actually get the job done. We are qualified to use tools like bzr, > msgmerge and other things to make sure that work is not lost. But right > now I (as a coordinator) am quite powerless to stop the waste of time. > The only thing I can do is to not recommend that people work on certain > things. I cannot even put a big red sticker on the ubuntu docs page on > Launchpad saying "don't translate this". I have only indirect means of > communication (e-mails) around Launchpad. This makes everything very > complicated and not something I look forward to dealing with. > I acknowledge the problems with fuzzy translations, and as it's been discussed several times in the mailing list, for now and the foreseeing future, we've only got workarounds to deal with it. However, and despite these issues, I'm personally against disabling translations in Launchpad. While in your team or on others there might be contributors with experience with bzr or other version control systems, I'd encourage you to consider the wider translation community, where most translators don't possess those technical skills. The approach in Ubuntu has always been to lower the approach to contribution, and that would go on the opposite direction. Shutting down translations in Launchpad and allowing only VCS contributions would not only radically increase the barrier to translation contribution, limiting it to a few translators with technical skills, but
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 03/04/12 10:10, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: > On 3 April 2012 07:57, David Planella wrote: >> Al 03/04/12 08:49, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: >>> On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: You're probably aware of the feature, but you can also alternatively export translations to a separate branch, which you can choose to merge to trunk at your convenience. In whichever way you use it, branch exports and imports are recommended over manual exports and imports. >>> >>> Yes, I was aware of it, but I don't really see any benefit in using it >>> over and above a simple export of po files from Launchpad. What are >>> the reasons why a branch export is recommended over a manual export? >>> >> >> In general, >> >> - Correct paths: Paths and PO file names of branch exports are correct, >> unlike many manual exports > > I think that, as you noted at the bottom of your email here [1], that > this isn't the case! > > [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2012-April/016482.html > You're absolutely correct, which is why I think the current set up is already the best we can have: - Automatic imports - Automatic exports (exporting to a separate branch). Sorry I didn't include the info about the exports layout on my previous reply. It was meant to be a generic list of advantages of manual vs. automatic exports, and what I meant by that point is that in automatic ones the files are named correctly (e.g. .po) and are placed in the right location, which is something that often does not happen with manual exports. Now in the particular case of Ubuntu docs we've got the following layout: ubuntu-help/ubuntu-help.pot ubuntu-help/ca/ca.po ubuntu-help/zh_CN/zh_CN.po ... But Launchpad expects the common gettext layout, i.e. flat, with all .po files and .pot file in one same folder: ubuntu-help/ubuntu-help.pot ubuntu-help/ca.po ubuntu-help/zh_CN.po ... Which in turn means the ubuntu-docs layout is not directly supported. I only realised that after I had initially suggested to use automatic exports to trunk, so I apologise for suggesting a non-working option. I think it would still work if we were to set symlinks linking to the right paths, but unless someone would like to volunteer for investigating this approach, I'd suggest leaving trunk exports for now. In summary, though, I'd still recommend the current setup (automatic imports, automatic exports to separate branch) for this and future releases. >> - More automation: no need to manually go to the web UI, request an >> export, wait for Launchpad to reply, get download URL from Launchpad's >> e-mail. Changes are committed daily to the branch, which can then be >> merged to trunk with one bzr command, instantly, without having to wait >> for Launchpad. > > That might be true if the correct paths were maintained, but if they > aren't, the po files have to be added manually anyway, and I don't > think it makes much difference. > It still offers advantages. Compare (manual export): 1. Go to the docs project Launchpad URL 2. Request the full translations download (only project maintainers can do this) 3. Wait for Launchpad to request (it might take from minutes, to hours to days, depending on Launchpad's load) 4. Check your e-mail, retrieve the download link 5. Fetch translations from the download link, wait for download to complete 6. Uncompress tarball, fix filenames and paths if necessary 7. Put translations in the ubuntu-docs tree 8. Commit translations: bzr commit -m"Updated translations from Launchpad" Vs (automatic export to separate branch): 1. Checkout latest translations: bzr checkout --lightweight lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/$RELEASE-translations 2. Put the translations in the ubuntu-docs tree. E.g. (where PODIR is the checkout location of the previous command, and DOCSDIR where the ubuntu-docs tree lives) #!/bin/env bash for f in "$PODIR/ubuntu-help/"*.po do LANG=`basename $f .po` echo "Copying $f to $DOCSDIR/ubuntu-help/$LANG" cp $f $DOCSDIR/ubuntu-help/$LANG done 3. Commit translations: bzr commit -m"Updated translations from Launchpad" The second option (automatic export to separate branch) you can do in a matter of a few minutes in a synchronous manner, while the first option might take hours and you'll be depending on Launchpad and you'll have to finish your work asynchronously. > I'm not 100% up to speed on how bzr merge works, but won't the bzr > merge command add the revision history from the translations branch to > the main branch? If so, and given the massive number of daily changes > to the translations branch, I think that this could dramatically > increase the size of the revision history in the main branch, > increasing download time for contributors. > I'm not a bzr expert either, so I'm not in the position to provide an authoritative answer. In any case, I'll just add a few points to the discussion: - With the 3-step approach above, you would not be m
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
On 3 April 2012 07:57, David Planella wrote: > Al 03/04/12 08:49, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: >> On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: >>> You're probably aware of the feature, but you can also alternatively >>> export translations to a separate branch, which you can choose to merge >>> to trunk at your convenience. In whichever way you use it, branch >>> exports and imports are recommended over manual exports and imports. >> >> Yes, I was aware of it, but I don't really see any benefit in using it >> over and above a simple export of po files from Launchpad. What are >> the reasons why a branch export is recommended over a manual export? >> > > In general, > > - Correct paths: Paths and PO file names of branch exports are correct, > unlike many manual exports I think that, as you noted at the bottom of your email here [1], that this isn't the case! [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2012-April/016482.html > - More automation: no need to manually go to the web UI, request an > export, wait for Launchpad to reply, get download URL from Launchpad's > e-mail. Changes are committed daily to the branch, which can then be > merged to trunk with one bzr command, instantly, without having to wait > for Launchpad. That might be true if the correct paths were maintained, but if they aren't, the po files have to be added manually anyway, and I don't think it makes much difference. I'm not 100% up to speed on how bzr merge works, but won't the bzr merge command add the revision history from the translations branch to the main branch? If so, and given the massive number of daily changes to the translations branch, I think that this could dramatically increase the size of the revision history in the main branch, increasing download time for contributors. > - Latest data availability: expanding on the previous point, having the > latest data available without the need of manual intervention, makes it > possible to provide infrastructure to help community work around that > data. I've not announced it widely as it is not more than an experiment > for now, but I've been working on such a tool as a helper to > documentation translation work, and getting feedback from translators > (see below). I agree that this could be an advantage, although if there is the path issue noted above, wouldn't it require manual intervention in any event? -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 03/04/12 08:49, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: > Hi, > > On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: >> You're probably aware of the feature, but you can also alternatively >> export translations to a separate branch, which you can choose to merge >> to trunk at your convenience. In whichever way you use it, branch >> exports and imports are recommended over manual exports and imports. > > Yes, I was aware of it, but I don't really see any benefit in using it > over and above a simple export of po files from Launchpad. What are > the reasons why a branch export is recommended over a manual export? > In general, - Correct paths: Paths and PO file names of branch exports are correct, unlike many manual exports - More automation: no need to manually go to the web UI, request an export, wait for Launchpad to reply, get download URL from Launchpad's e-mail. Changes are committed daily to the branch, which can then be merged to trunk with one bzr command, instantly, without having to wait for Launchpad. - Latest data availability: expanding on the previous point, having the latest data available without the need of manual intervention, makes it possible to provide infrastructure to help community work around that data. I've not announced it widely as it is not more than an experiment for now, but I've been working on such a tool as a helper to documentation translation work, and getting feedback from translators (see below). Last week I had a chat on #ubuntu-doc with jbicha and he set the exports branch for me, which is what I'm using to generate a daily HTML build of translated documentation to help translators [1]. This has been very helpful, so I think this point is already covered, thanks Jeremy! Cheers, David. [1] http://91.189.93.101/ (currently down for maintenance) -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Hi, On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: > You're probably aware of the feature, but you can also alternatively > export translations to a separate branch, which you can choose to merge > to trunk at your convenience. In whichever way you use it, branch > exports and imports are recommended over manual exports and imports. Yes, I was aware of it, but I don't really see any benefit in using it over and above a simple export of po files from Launchpad. What are the reasons why a branch export is recommended over a manual export? -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Op 26-03-12 17:10, Ask Hjorth Larsen schreef: Dear translators and documentation people On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Timo Jyrinki wrote: 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu translations should simply be not visible until the final template is uploaded? Or this current system still better? I think one of the biggest invisible problems in Ubuntu translations making people go away (if they notice it) is the fact that work is wasted. Most of the people translating do not know that probably a lot of their translations will not be used if they've been translating ubuntu-docs in the last month or so, or even this coming week. This would not be such a big problem it is today without being combined with the lack of supporting fuzzy strings in LP. Then when the docs team do a cleanup of commas, articles or word orders (I'd assume there is always a bunch of those in addition to total rewrites), quality translations that would still have a lot value (either 100% match or something easily fixed to match the new form) are being lost. This is especially big problem in ubuntu-docs, since it has long strings, and a single small change anywhere will always reset a big amount of translated text compared to application UI texts that are usually much shorter. With the new precise ubuntu-docs template, I see that while the total number of strings have stayed roughly the same (+100 strings), the number of untranslated strings have raised from 358 to 1086. What I personally will do is: - now very quickly save the current Ubuntu precise's ubuntu-docs PO file - when the new ubuntu-docs gets to precise proper, fuzzy match the downloaded PO file to the new template manually with gettext tools - in case of simple word order / punctuation / etc changes simply unfuzzy or make a little fix in the translation - upload the new PO with "saved" translations back to Launchpad But I'd estimate that not many of the languages have the luck of someone doing this work. In the other language teams, there might be frustrated people noticing that the hard work they've done (translating ubuntu-docs is really hard work since there is so much of it) has for a part disappeared. Not that this would be a new problem of course, but what do you think about the template hiding idea or do you have any other ideas to help this problem (other than contributing to LP code)? -Timo I apologize in advance for the considerable amount of grumbling below. But I think we have big problems. I think Launchpad should be entirely disabled for docs translations. The lack of fuzzy matching makes Launchpad almost useless for anything but UI translations. The alternative is to use e.g. a bzr archive to maintain the translations. This requires more technical knowledge, but we (translations coordinators) can help individual translators with it, and actually get the job done. We are qualified to use tools like bzr, msgmerge and other things to make sure that work is not lost. But right now I (as a coordinator) am quite powerless to stop the waste of time. The only thing I can do is to not recommend that people work on certain things. I cannot even put a big red sticker on the ubuntu docs page on Launchpad saying "don't translate this". I have only indirect means of communication (e-mails) around Launchpad. This makes everything very complicated and not something I look forward to dealing with. There is only one thing which is worse than not getting a voluntary contribution due to it being too difficult, and that is to get the contribution and then throw it away. Because that contributor will not come back. I and others have previously requested fuzzy matching and some other IMHO essential features on Launchpad, but there seems to be no plans to implement any of it or even recognize the importance. So please disable ubuntu docs in Launchpad. Best regards Ask Hello Ask, I fully understand your grumbling, but for the moment we have to make do with what we have. Because I firmly believe in the translation of Ubuntu Desktop Guide, I translated most of the Oneiric version on LP. And when I click F1 on my desktop (Oneiric), I am so proud to see that almost everything is in Dutch now. Regards, Hannie -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
2012/3/26 David Planella : > In terms of hiding the template until freeze is in place, I'd personally > recommend against that. I realize docs are a very special type of > translation, as translations themselves are harder to do than in shorter > strings, and as small changes in the sources mean a higher amount of > work in retranslation than regular UI translations. > > The main reason why I'm against hiding templates is consistency: we show > translation templates for all of the rest very early in the cycle, so > that actual translations can be tested as soon as possible. A few years > back we used to open translations relatively late in the development > process, but at some point translators requested to have them open > earlier, so now we tend to do it around alpha time, at the same time the > first language packs are rolled out. I understand, and also agree. If thinking about the specific case here, your other suggestion would help here a bit: > - Keep the POT file in upstream and Ubuntu in sync. I think the last template update and upload on the Ubuntu side was on February 5th. Had there been some middle point upload between that and now, the upcoming change in Ubuntu translations would have been somewhat smaller. I don't know if the upstream LP templates were updated between early February and now this update, but if not, possibly there was some point at which some portion of the documentation updates was finished and could have been offered for translation earlier together with an Ubuntu upload. That said, I did an about hour's job merging the current Ubuntu translations (old template) into the new ubuntu-docs upstream translation template, starting with msgmerge output. I unfuzzied a lot as is, ie. I didn't notice anything changed in the English string that would have an effect on the translation, and also unfuzzied a lot with eg. one word changes. There were for example a lot of even long strings with the only change "top panel" -> "menu bar", which were quick to fix while salvaging the rest of the translation that Launchpad would have just lost. In the end this relatively small job fixed about 60% of the new according-to-LP untranslated strings. The new template brought the untranslated strings count from ca. 360 to 1080, and this work lessened that delta with over 400 strings. Those language teams that won't do this will have a lot harder job to translate those 400 strings from scratch. -Timo (for reference, here's how I did it: 1. downloaded ubuntu's ubuntu-docs translations, let's say as ubuntu-strings.po 2. downloaded ubuntu-docs upstream translations, as newtemplate.po 3. msgmerge ubuntu-strings.po newtemplate.po > newcombined.po 4. make sure your comment headers in newcombined.po match the newtemplate.po strings - especially the Launchpad export tags 5. use your favorite localization editor to go through all the fuzzy strings - skip those that have clearly some different content (unless you're in the mood of doing the translations, but I'd recommend first getting the real offline job done) - if you recognize that the strings seem very similar, first check that all tags and URL:s are correct in the translated string at least - there are a couple of subtle changes - then go casually over the content that it still matches the English string. make changes as necessary. mark as translated. 6. upload the newcombined.po to ubuntu-docs upstream LP translations 7. wait for the queue to handle it (it will be in 'needs review' for some hours) ) -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Dear translators and documentation people On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Timo Jyrinki wrote: 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu translations should simply be not visible until the final template is uploaded? Or this current system still better? I think one of the biggest invisible problems in Ubuntu translations making people go away (if they notice it) is the fact that work is wasted. Most of the people translating do not know that probably a lot of their translations will not be used if they've been translating ubuntu-docs in the last month or so, or even this coming week. This would not be such a big problem it is today without being combined with the lack of supporting fuzzy strings in LP. Then when the docs team do a cleanup of commas, articles or word orders (I'd assume there is always a bunch of those in addition to total rewrites), quality translations that would still have a lot value (either 100% match or something easily fixed to match the new form) are being lost. This is especially big problem in ubuntu-docs, since it has long strings, and a single small change anywhere will always reset a big amount of translated text compared to application UI texts that are usually much shorter. With the new precise ubuntu-docs template, I see that while the total number of strings have stayed roughly the same (+100 strings), the number of untranslated strings have raised from 358 to 1086. What I personally will do is: - now very quickly save the current Ubuntu precise's ubuntu-docs PO file - when the new ubuntu-docs gets to precise proper, fuzzy match the downloaded PO file to the new template manually with gettext tools - in case of simple word order / punctuation / etc changes simply unfuzzy or make a little fix in the translation - upload the new PO with "saved" translations back to Launchpad But I'd estimate that not many of the languages have the luck of someone doing this work. In the other language teams, there might be frustrated people noticing that the hard work they've done (translating ubuntu-docs is really hard work since there is so much of it) has for a part disappeared. Not that this would be a new problem of course, but what do you think about the template hiding idea or do you have any other ideas to help this problem (other than contributing to LP code)? -Timo I apologize in advance for the considerable amount of grumbling below. But I think we have big problems. I think Launchpad should be entirely disabled for docs translations. The lack of fuzzy matching makes Launchpad almost useless for anything but UI translations. The alternative is to use e.g. a bzr archive to maintain the translations. This requires more technical knowledge, but we (translations coordinators) can help individual translators with it, and actually get the job done. We are qualified to use tools like bzr, msgmerge and other things to make sure that work is not lost. But right now I (as a coordinator) am quite powerless to stop the waste of time. The only thing I can do is to not recommend that people work on certain things. I cannot even put a big red sticker on the ubuntu docs page on Launchpad saying "don't translate this". I have only indirect means of communication (e-mails) around Launchpad. This makes everything very complicated and not something I look forward to dealing with. There is only one thing which is worse than not getting a voluntary contribution due to it being too difficult, and that is to get the contribution and then throw it away. Because that contributor will not come back. I and others have previously requested fuzzy matching and some other IMHO essential features on Launchpad, but there seems to be no plans to implement any of it or even recognize the importance. So please disable ubuntu docs in Launchpad. Best regards Ask -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 26/03/12 14:46, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: > On 26 March 2012 13:40, David Planella wrote: >> Al 26/03/12 14:20, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: >>> On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: Another thing I've noticed is that as translation is done in Launchpad, you don't need to choose "Import template and translation files", as PO files don't need to be imported (all translations are already in Launchpad). So I'd suggest "Import templates only" on: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/precise/+translations-settings >>> >>> I thought that there might be translations in the branch which aren't >>> present on Launchpad (e.g. because they have come from the Oneiric >>> branch) so enabled this for completeness. >>> >> >> Ah, these are shared already within Launchpad, so they don't need to be >> imported from the branch's po files. I.e. message sharing works amongst >> series of the same upstream project, amongst distro series, and amongst >> these two pools (upstream and distro). > > I see, that's good to know. I thought that translators had to select > the translations again as suggestions. > >> However, I've just realized that there is indeed a need to leave the >> setting as it is now: you merge from GNOME docs, so you do need to >> import PO files in the bzr branch to get the GNOME translations. > > We don't merge the GNOME translations. I believe that would need to be > done manually by merging the two po files and we don't have the > infrastructure for that. So I would encourage translators to upload > GNOME po files so that Launchpad does this for them. > Ah, yeah, I remember you mentioning it a while ago now. Perhaps the translations team could give a hand here. When you do content merges from GNOME, what's the actual procedure that you guys follow? I'm thinking of writing a simple script that integrates in your workflow and simply pulls the po files from git and msgmerges them with what's on the ubuntu-doc branch. Would something along these lines be useful? Cheers, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 26/03/12 09:07, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: > On 26 March 2012 06:11, Timo Jyrinki wrote: >> 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : >>> I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up >>> translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. >> >> What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - >> it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? > > We don't use this, but I've amended the settings to ensure that > translations are shared between the two places. > Thanks Matthew. I think, as pointed out by Timo, we're all aware of the challenges with fuzzy strings in Launchpad, which is something that unfortunately will not be addressed in the near future. But unrelated to that, as mentioned other times, using message sharing between the source package and the upstream project will help in landing all the Ubuntu contributions to the upstream project, so thanks for setting that up. Most Ubuntu translators translate the Ubuntu source packages, which have got more visibility than upstreams, so I think in this regard using sharing is the most optimal approach. >> For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu >> translations should simply be not visible until the final template is >> uploaded? Or this current system still better? > > This is a question for the translation coordinators rather than us, > I'm sure that we'll be happy to be guided by them as to how best to > handle this. Over the past few cycles we've been clear that we use the > translations in the upstream location, but that we enable translation > sharing on Launchpad between the package location and the upstream > location. I think there is no easy way we can mitigate the issue with fuzzy strings, but I'd like to hear if someone has got any ideas. In terms of hiding the template until freeze is in place, I'd personally recommend against that. I realize docs are a very special type of translation, as translations themselves are harder to do than in shorter strings, and as small changes in the sources mean a higher amount of work in retranslation than regular UI translations. The main reason why I'm against hiding templates is consistency: we show translation templates for all of the rest very early in the cycle, so that actual translations can be tested as soon as possible. A few years back we used to open translations relatively late in the development process, but at some point translators requested to have them open earlier, so now we tend to do it around alpha time, at the same time the first language packs are rolled out. So I'd prefer not to have to special-case the docs more than we're doing already, and have to be tracking when the template needs to be open. Barring exceptions, UI/doc freezes is the time when translators should be able to start doing their work safely. No translations are guaranteed to be stable before that, so there is always the risk of loosing work (well, or getting it marked as fuzzy). The truth is that we all tend to start translating before freezes, as generally no software is so unstable that all of its strings change, and we can always benefit of testing translations in the weekly language packs during development. > > But if translators want us to make changes, or if there are things we > can do to make their job easier, please let us know so that we can try > and help. > I can think of a couple of things that could be helpful: - Keep the POT file in upstream and Ubuntu in sync. I believe this is something that you do already, at least at string freeze. In any case, as I understand it, there are some doc team contributors that are new to translations, so I'll reinstate it in case it can be helpful as a reminder: it'd be really useful to ensure that whenever there is a POT file update committed upstream, i.e. when you think a set of messages are ready to be translated, that that same template is uploaded in the corresponding Ubuntu source package (simply using the upload form in Launchpad [1], no need to do an actual source package upload). Either that or notifying the translators list, and then someone with permissions can do the .pot file upload. - Run a test server which does localized daily builds of Ubuntu docs in html and makes them available on a public location. I've seen something like that on http://37.9.231.137/build/, although it seems to build only the C (en-us) version. This would be very useful for localizers to test translations without having to wait for language pack updates. And I guess for documenters it would be helpful for proof-reading without having to do a local build. I realize the second point is more on the wishlist side. I might give even give it a go myself before the translation deadline, but I cannot promise anything. Cheers, David. [1] https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/ubuntu-help/+upload -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
On 26 March 2012 13:40, David Planella wrote: > Al 26/03/12 14:20, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: >> On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: >>> Another thing I've noticed is that as translation is done in Launchpad, >>> you don't need to choose "Import template and translation files", as PO >>> files don't need to be imported (all translations are already in >>> Launchpad). So I'd suggest "Import templates only" on: >>> >>> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/precise/+translations-settings >> >> I thought that there might be translations in the branch which aren't >> present on Launchpad (e.g. because they have come from the Oneiric >> branch) so enabled this for completeness. >> > > Ah, these are shared already within Launchpad, so they don't need to be > imported from the branch's po files. I.e. message sharing works amongst > series of the same upstream project, amongst distro series, and amongst > these two pools (upstream and distro). I see, that's good to know. I thought that translators had to select the translations again as suggestions. > However, I've just realized that there is indeed a need to leave the > setting as it is now: you merge from GNOME docs, so you do need to > import PO files in the bzr branch to get the GNOME translations. We don't merge the GNOME translations. I believe that would need to be done manually by merging the two po files and we don't have the infrastructure for that. So I would encourage translators to upload GNOME po files so that Launchpad does this for them. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 26/03/12 14:20, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: > On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: >> Another thing I've noticed is that as translation is done in Launchpad, >> you don't need to choose "Import template and translation files", as PO >> files don't need to be imported (all translations are already in >> Launchpad). So I'd suggest "Import templates only" on: >> >> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/precise/+translations-settings > > I thought that there might be translations in the branch which aren't > present on Launchpad (e.g. because they have come from the Oneiric > branch) so enabled this for completeness. > Ah, these are shared already within Launchpad, so they don't need to be imported from the branch's po files. I.e. message sharing works amongst series of the same upstream project, amongst distro series, and amongst these two pools (upstream and distro). However, I've just realized that there is indeed a need to leave the setting as it is now: you merge from GNOME docs, so you do need to import PO files in the bzr branch to get the GNOME translations. So no need to change anything, sorry for the noise. Cheers, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
On 26 March 2012 11:09, David Planella wrote: > Another thing I've noticed is that as translation is done in Launchpad, > you don't need to choose "Import template and translation files", as PO > files don't need to be imported (all translations are already in > Launchpad). So I'd suggest "Import templates only" on: > > https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/precise/+translations-settings I thought that there might be translations in the branch which aren't present on Launchpad (e.g. because they have come from the Oneiric branch) so enabled this for completeness. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
2012/3/26 Matthew East : > We don't use this, but I've amended the settings to ensure that > translations are shared between the two places. For translators those are technical details, but indeed at least when the docs are fully translatable the availability of those under the Ubuntu umbrella is very useful for discoverability. > But if translators want us to make changes, or if there are things we > can do to make their job easier, please let us know so that we can try > and help. I'm not aware of anything special the docs team could do better. Maybe if something could be suggested, it would be to be careful when doing mass changes, for example to punctuation, unless it's really, really needed. Because of the Launchpad problematics I mentioned, they cause havoc in the translations that is disproportionate to the perceived amount of changes in the documentation itself. -Timo -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
Al 26/03/12 09:09, En/na Matthew East ha escrit: > On 26 March 2012 05:46, Jeremy Bicha wrote: >> I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up >> translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. > > Thanks Jeremy, and also for your great work updating the documentation. > Another +1, thanks a lot Jeremy! And also for updating the status of all doc pages on Friday, that was very helpful. > Note for ubuntu-docs only: I've disabled the automatic daily > translation imports into the branch from Launchpad, as these have a > very large imprint on the revision history and will result in the > branch being very big. We can import translations once at the > appropriate time before uploading the final package. > You're probably aware of the feature, but you can also alternatively export translations to a separate branch, which you can choose to merge to trunk at your convenience. In whichever way you use it, branch exports and imports are recommended over manual exports and imports. Another thing I've noticed is that as translation is done in Launchpad, you don't need to choose "Import template and translation files", as PO files don't need to be imported (all translations are already in Launchpad). So I'd suggest "Import templates only" on: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/precise/+translations-settings Cheers, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
On 26 March 2012 06:11, Timo Jyrinki wrote: > 2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : >> I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up >> translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. > > What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - > it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? We don't use this, but I've amended the settings to ensure that translations are shared between the two places. > For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu > translations should simply be not visible until the final template is > uploaded? Or this current system still better? This is a question for the translation coordinators rather than us, I'm sure that we'll be happy to be guided by them as to how best to handle this. Over the past few cycles we've been clear that we use the translations in the upstream location, but that we enable translation sharing on Launchpad between the package location and the upstream location. But if translators want us to make changes, or if there are things we can do to make their job easier, please let us know so that we can try and help. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Translation status for ubuntu-docs
2012/3/26 Jeremy Bicha : > I uploaded the potfile for ubuntu-docs tonight and opened up > translations on Launchpad for the precise branch. What about the ubuntu-docs under /ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs - it'll be updated at the time of actual upload? For future, do you think that ubuntu-docs under the Ubuntu translations should simply be not visible until the final template is uploaded? Or this current system still better? I think one of the biggest invisible problems in Ubuntu translations making people go away (if they notice it) is the fact that work is wasted. Most of the people translating do not know that probably a lot of their translations will not be used if they've been translating ubuntu-docs in the last month or so, or even this coming week. This would not be such a big problem it is today without being combined with the lack of supporting fuzzy strings in LP. Then when the docs team do a cleanup of commas, articles or word orders (I'd assume there is always a bunch of those in addition to total rewrites), quality translations that would still have a lot value (either 100% match or something easily fixed to match the new form) are being lost. This is especially big problem in ubuntu-docs, since it has long strings, and a single small change anywhere will always reset a big amount of translated text compared to application UI texts that are usually much shorter. With the new precise ubuntu-docs template, I see that while the total number of strings have stayed roughly the same (+100 strings), the number of untranslated strings have raised from 358 to 1086. What I personally will do is: - now very quickly save the current Ubuntu precise's ubuntu-docs PO file - when the new ubuntu-docs gets to precise proper, fuzzy match the downloaded PO file to the new template manually with gettext tools - in case of simple word order / punctuation / etc changes simply unfuzzy or make a little fix in the translation - upload the new PO with "saved" translations back to Launchpad But I'd estimate that not many of the languages have the luck of someone doing this work. In the other language teams, there might be frustrated people noticing that the hard work they've done (translating ubuntu-docs is really hard work since there is so much of it) has for a part disappeared. Not that this would be a new problem of course, but what do you think about the template hiding idea or do you have any other ideas to help this problem (other than contributing to LP code)? -Timo -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
