Re: Re: [Ubuntu-manual] top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
I believe our path to a resolution lies not in what >we< think is right, or what a majority of a group thinks is right, but what the end user thinks is right. Let me explain. There are several shades of blue (electric blue, navy blue, indigo blue...to name a few). But generally, these variations of blue are accepted as "blue" for (and because of) a variety of reasons. But then we have CYAN. Is it blue? Well, to a generalist, yes. To ME, yes. But to a lithographer, or a printer manufacturer, or a photographer, or a user replacing a printer cartridge, CYAN is a very specific color mix, so to them, and for their purposes, and in their opinion, CYAN is NOT blue. Printer manufacturers have labeled this color as CYAN, all the printer cartridge manufacturers call the color CYAN, therefore, the user searches for a replacement CYAN (not BLUE) printer cartridge. My point. We may say the "top bar" represents one thing while the "menu bar" represents another, and we can debate about the denotation and connotation of the identifiers, but we've not asked the (arguably) more question yet "what is generally accepted?" And by answering that question, we will know what the user will expect, and by knowing what the user expects, we'll all be speaking the same language. While the "Ubuntu Manual Project" is an excellent resource filling a specific niche market, it is not a "definitive guide to using Ubuntu". The UMP is a generalist publication for those wanting to get into Ubuntu but don't want to wade through a 500-page "official manual". We're more of a 150-page "quick start guide". This being the case, we should be in the mindset not to determine and define screen element names, but to support that which has already been defined for us. A discussion amongst ourselves is good, and healthy, but if we determine that a "top bar" is "X" while other manuals, websites, tutorials, etc. identify it as "Y", are we best serving the overall community by presenting these contradictions in print? My recommendation is that we define screen elements the same as the Official Ubuntu Manual defines them...right or wrong. We may even need to coordinate with them...or even contact Canonical directly for input in answering some of these questions. In the interest of serving the user base, it's best that all we are all 100% right or 100% wrong. Anything less adds confusion to the user, and, in the end, detracts from the overall impressiveness of the user supported documentation and--I would argue--the Ubuntu OS in general. --Jim On , Hannie Dumoleyn wrote: With more reactions coming in, I think "menu bar" is the favorite now. The explanation that this bar holds mainly menu's is a valid one. With the term "top bar" one refers to the location of the bar (at the top of the screen), while the term "menu bar" says more about the contents of the bar. @manual team: if we agree on "menu bar", we can start using this term in Quantal. Regards, Hannie Op 11-07-12 04:46, Jeremy Bicha schreef: On 10 July 2012 04:49, Hannie Dumoleyn lafeber-dumole...@zonnet.nl> wrote: As a member of the ubuntu manual team I started a discussion on how we should call this "thing" at the top of our screen. As a translator of the official Ubuntu documentation (yelp) I noticed that the word "panel" had been changed to "menu bar" in the Precise version. I would like to discuss this with people from ubuntu-translators and ubuntu-docs as well. Let me know what you think. The official Ubuntu term is "menu bar". Besides the official Ubuntu documentation, this can be found in multiple places in System Settings such as "Show battery status in the menu bar". The GNOME documentation calls the similar space in GNOME Shell "top bar". Personally, I like the "menu bar" name as the top of the screen includes application menus, application status menus, and system status menus. The only part that isn'ta menu is the window management buttons (close, minimize, maximize) and the app title. Thanks for asking as clear and consistent word choices are important! Jeremy ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual Post to : ubuntu-man...@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: [Ubuntu-manual] top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
The "official" name for it when Unity was developed was "the panel" and I don't think that has changed. Perhaps we should consult the Unity developers before we change it to "top bar". On 10 July 2012 16:01, Hannie Dumoleyn wrote: > Hi, > I am glad with the reactions so far. Personally, I prefer the word "Top > bar" because it contains both the menu and the so called notification area. > Should people from ubuntu-docs agree that this is better than "menu bar", > we could make "Top bar" the standard term. > The most important thing is what the majority of ubuntu users prefer to > see, although I realize it is hard to find out. > Regards, > Hannie > P.s.: since I started this discussion on several mailing lists, I would > appreciate it if people send their reactions to all. > > Op 10-07-12 14:26, Paddy Landau schreef: > > … I've had to refer to it as the 'top bar'… > > > Thank you, Barry; obvious in hindsight! > > "Top bar" is an excellent term, because it says exactly what it appears to > be: a bar at the top of the screen. It matches our real-world experience > through an appropriate metaphor. (All computer terms are metaphors.) > > I realise that the new yelp standard seems to be "menu bar". > > However, as the top bar contains the application title, the menu > (sometimes), various pieces of information, and application icons such as > Skype, Wine, Settings and Libre Office Quickstarter, I think that "menu > bar" is insufficient and even misleading — as, in hindsight, is "panel". > > (A panel in real life is usually not thin, so it is clearly a > counter-descriptive word to use.) > > The question becomes, then: > > Do we use the yelp standard, or do we use a new standard that makes it > immediately obvious what we mean? > > My initial thoughts are that we use the yelp standard for consistency, and > when introducing the term, we explain that we mean the "top bar with the > menu and other information", as well as putting it into the glossary. > Unfortunately, that is also potentially misleading because several > programs, including Libre Office, do not put their menu in the "menu bar". > > So, my preferred solution would be to use something immediately obvious to > the reader and to suggest to the yelp writers to adopt that standard. If we > use "top bar", we could also say, "The Launcher can be found on the left > bar." > > Paddy > > > > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual > Post to : ubuntu-man...@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
Hi everyone, AFAIK Quantal will add an option to use old fashion menus AKA "locally integrated menus" instead of the global menu (well, it was originally planned for Precise...). Top Bar will also work in this case. It is more generic and it also gives a 'location hint' to the user (how will a new user know that the 'menu bar' is the thing on the top and not the thing on the left?). IMHO, 'Top Bar' is less ambiguous. And using 'Top Bar' will also reduce the diff between Ubuntu and Gnome manuals (= less work for translators). So yes, I'm pro 'Top Bar' :p Nicolas -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
With more reactions coming in, I think "menu bar" is the favorite now. The explanation that this bar holds mainly menu's is a valid one. With the term "top bar" one refers to the location of the bar (at the top of the screen), while the term "menu bar" says more about the contents of the bar. @manual team: if we agree on "menu bar", we can start using this term in Quantal. Regards, Hannie Op 11-07-12 04:46, Jeremy Bicha schreef: On 10 July 2012 04:49, Hannie Dumoleyn wrote: As a member of the ubuntu manual team I started a discussion on how we should call this "thing" at the top of our screen. As a translator of the official Ubuntu documentation (yelp) I noticed that the word "panel" had been changed to "menu bar" in the Precise version. I would like to discuss this with people from ubuntu-translators and ubuntu-docs as well. Let me know what you think. The official Ubuntu term is "menu bar". Besides the official Ubuntu documentation, this can be found in multiple places in System Settings such as "Show battery status in the menu bar". The GNOME documentation calls the similar space in GNOME Shell "top bar". Personally, I like the "menu bar" name as the top of the screen includes application menus, application status menus, and system status menus. The only part that isn't a menu is the window management buttons (close, minimize, maximize) and the app title. Thanks for asking as clear and consistent word choices are important! Jeremy -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: [Ubuntu-manual] top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
Hi Paddy, Thanks for starting a discussion on this on the forums. It is quite interesting to read the suggestions, one of them particularly: are there plans to redo http://askubuntu.com/questions/10228/whats-the-right-terminology-for-unitys-ui-elements ?Here the answer to the question "Is the bar at the top called "panel"? is No, the top bar is called the "menu bar". But I would still say: who has decided on this? And do we agree? I hope I do not sound arrogant, all I want is to have a clear answer. Regards, Hannie Op 10-07-12 18:17, Paddy Landau schreef: P.s.: since I started this discussion on several mailing lists, I would appreciate it if people send their reactions to all. I wouldn't be on all the lists, but you have my permission to use my ideas freely on the other lists if you think it will help. I have asked the question on the Ubuntu Forums. Let's see if we get an even better suggestion than "top bar". http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2022172 Paddy ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual Post to : ubuntu-man...@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
2012/7/11 Jeremy Bicha > On 10 July 2012 04:49, Hannie Dumoleyn > wrote: > > As a member of the ubuntu manual team I started a discussion on how we > > should call this "thing" at the top of our screen. > > As a translator of the official Ubuntu documentation (yelp) I noticed > that > > the word "panel" had been changed to "menu bar" in the Precise version. > > I would like to discuss this with people from ubuntu-translators and > > ubuntu-docs as well. > > Let me know what you think. > > The official Ubuntu term is "menu bar". Besides the official Ubuntu > documentation, this can be found in multiple places in System Settings > such as "Show battery status in the menu bar". > > The GNOME documentation calls the similar space in GNOME Shell "top bar". > > Personally, I like the "menu bar" name as the top of the screen > includes application menus, application status menus, and system > status menus. The only part that isn't a menu is the window management > buttons (close, minimize, maximize) and the app title. > > Thanks for asking as clear and consistent word choices are important! > > Jeremy > > Hello, I think the "top" word is useful/necessary, because new users may see 2 possible "menu bars": one on the top and one on the left. Regards Yann -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
On 10 July 2012 04:49, Hannie Dumoleyn wrote: > As a member of the ubuntu manual team I started a discussion on how we > should call this "thing" at the top of our screen. > As a translator of the official Ubuntu documentation (yelp) I noticed that > the word "panel" had been changed to "menu bar" in the Precise version. > I would like to discuss this with people from ubuntu-translators and > ubuntu-docs as well. > Let me know what you think. The official Ubuntu term is "menu bar". Besides the official Ubuntu documentation, this can be found in multiple places in System Settings such as "Show battery status in the menu bar". The GNOME documentation calls the similar space in GNOME Shell "top bar". Personally, I like the "menu bar" name as the top of the screen includes application menus, application status menus, and system status menus. The only part that isn't a menu is the window management buttons (close, minimize, maximize) and the app title. Thanks for asking as clear and consistent word choices are important! Jeremy -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
Hi, I am glad with the reactions so far. Personally, I prefer the word "Top bar" because it contains both the menu and the so called notification area. Should people from ubuntu-docs agree that this is better than "menu bar", we could make "Top bar" the standard term. The most important thing is what the majority of ubuntu users prefer to see, although I realize it is hard to find out. Regards, Hannie P.s.: since I started this discussion on several mailing lists, I would appreciate it if people send their reactions to all. Op 10-07-12 14:26, Paddy Landau schreef: ... I've had to refer to it as the 'top bar'... Thank you, Barry; obvious in hindsight! "Top bar" is an excellent term, because it says exactly what it appears to be: a bar at the top of the screen. It matches our real-world experience through an appropriate metaphor. (All computer terms are metaphors.) I realise that the new yelp standard seems to be "menu bar". However, as the top bar contains the application title, the menu (sometimes), various pieces of information, and application icons such as Skype, Wine, Settings and Libre Office Quickstarter, I think that "menu bar" is insufficient and even misleading --- as, in hindsight, is "panel". (A panel in real life is usually not thin, so it is clearly a counter-descriptive word to use.) The question becomes, then: Do we use the yelp standard, or do we use a new standard that makes it immediately obvious what we mean? My initial thoughts are that we use the yelp standard for consistency, and when introducing the term, we explain that we mean the "top bar with the menu and other information", as well as putting it into the glossary. Unfortunately, that is also potentially misleading because several programs, including Libre Office, do not put their menu in the "menu bar". So, my preferred solution would be to use something immediately obvious to the reader and to suggest to the yelp writers to adopt that standard. If we use "top bar", we could also say, "The Launcher can be found on the left bar." Paddy -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
top bar, menu bar, panel or top panel
As a member of the ubuntu manual team I started a discussion on how we should call this "thing" at the top of our screen. As a translator of the official Ubuntu documentation (yelp) I noticed that the word "panel" had been changed to "menu bar" in the Precise version. I would like to discuss this with people from ubuntu-translators and ubuntu-docs as well. Let me know what you think. Hannie -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
