Re: [ubuntu-uk] Dell mini 10v costs more with Ubuntu than with XP
From: Paul Broadhead pjbr...@twinmoons.clara.co.uk Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Dell mini 10v costs more with Ubuntu than Alan Pope wrote: As I understand it (i.e. this may be factually inaccurate) any OEM wishing to sell Ubuntu branded as Ubuntu needs to pay a license to Canonical for the use of the trademarked name. I believe there are also restrictions upon what you can do, for example you can't pre-install skype, but can pre-install some codec bundles (which are an additional license cost). I did not realise that was the case. However, the figures would be very useful to know; both for Ubuntu and for windows. I wish companies could be more open about the OS cost and stop trying to hide behind different specifications and machines that cannot be compared. A while back, some of you may remember I contacted you all with respect to my business, and the prices for selling Ubuntu pre-installed desktop PCs. In response a number of posters suggested I get in touch with Canonical regarding whether there are royalty fees associated. They did eventually reply. Apologies, I meant to forward this to you all a long time ago. Here was the response: In terms of selling PCs with Ubuntu preloaded, as Ubuntu is free software and free to download, you don't need a license from us in order to do this. However, if you want to use the Ubuntu logo on the PCs you sell, this falls under our Trademarks and that is a different matter. We only allow PCs that have been Ubuntu Certified or Ubuntu Compatibility tested to display the Ubuntu logo. There can be no indication on the PCs that you sell with Ubuntu preloaded that these have been certified to work with Ubuntu, if this is not the case. So you are perfectly welcome to sell PCs with Ubuntu preloaded, but just not to use our trademarks or branding in this regard. In other words, it's a question of branding, rather than getting permission to use the software. If you don't use the branding, you don't pay anything. Hope this is useful to you all. Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
2009/3/25 Matt Jones m...@mattjones.me.uk: In the past, that opinion was fairly valid. Now, the celerons are actually quite speedy little chips, espescially for an Ubuntu box that is going to run web/openoffice/music all day. As for recommending a Via over the current (Dual core) celerons, they are quite a long way behind in performance terms, and not really any cheaper. I've read this discussion on the benefits or otherwise of Celerons with interest. I certainly would agree that the very first Intel Celerons were a waste of time. But, as far as I'm concerned, the latest Celerons are more than adequate for the average PC user as long they don't plan to run 3D graphics/games. I'm particularly impressed with the staying power of the E1400. I think that the option should be offered to have either LTS or the most current release as an option. For a consumer use, the new software available in a non LTS release does offer benefits over the staid reliability of the LTS. Urgh, thanks guys, now I'm thinking I should offer 8.10 again :-) Perhaps it'd be easier if I just sidestepped this issue for now and skip straight to 9.04 when it arrives! Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
2009/3/26 Dave Morley davm...@davmor2.co.uk: Looking at the hardware, you're looking at about 110-130 plus 20 for national delivery plus a bit for you so lets say 180 a unit-ish. You're in the area I'm looking at... but my raw costs are higher than 130, and I thought I'd sourced everything pretty cheaply. If you can show me how you came to that calculation I'd be very interested. I'm buying a case (450W PSU included), the E1400, a socket 775 mobo w/ onboard graphics and sound, a 160GB SATA(II) 7200rpm hdd, 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800MHz RAM, and a CD/DVD writer/rewriter. As for everything else Mr Pope is correct get onto Canonical for permission to use the ubuntu branding if nothing else. If I recall you have to send a sample machine in to canonical but again chase that up with them after all they know. I contacted them yesterday and am awaiting their response. Cheers Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
Good morning everyone First off, a declaration of interest, I'm in business selling desktop PCs. However, to avoid accusations of spamming, I won't give further details (unless you actually want them!) My reason for contacting you all is a sort of market research, if you'll be kind enough to allow that. I am interested in your opinion on pricing for a computer with Ubuntu pre-installed, as it's a market I am currently looking into. I'm looking to offer a base unit, 2GHz dual core Celeron (E1400) with 2GB DDR2 PC2-6400 RAM, and a 150GB SATA hdd. Graphics, sound and ethernet are onboard. Like I said, I would install Ubuntu 8.10 (and, of course, ubuntu 9.04 when it's released!) and run through the update utility. I understand there are issues regarding selling a Ubuntu PC with non-free applications pre-installed (e.g. medibuntu) so I assume I will have to leave them off, but perhaps give advice to those who need it. I have a price in mind for this machine (including UK mainland delivery) - but I'm curious to hear what other people think might be a fair price for it. If you can help me I'd really appreciate it. If not, I apologise for transgressing! Thank you for your time Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: Surely for the average user a LTS version would be better, such as 8.04? Development versions and upgrades could raise severe antagonisms to you. Fair cop, glad you pointed that out. I need to curb my enthusiasm for always wanting to be on the bleeding edge... Eddie (apologies if this doesn't thread correctly, I messed up my mailing list subscription at first...) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
2009/3/25 Alan Pope a...@popey.com: Hi Eddie, I don't believe you're breaking any rules as such on this mailing list. I personally think we should foster and encourage UK based companies/individuals who seek to supply Ubuntu based computers. I'd like to see more of this kind of discussion. Hi Alan, and thanks for the welcome. I agree; I'm very impressed with Ubuntu and I would like to see more retailers giving it as a genuine option. Somehow we have to get the word out to encourage take up... I would recommend you contact the OEM Team at Canonical. There are some restrictions on the use of the Ubuntu brand when selling machines. Rather than me misquote them I'd suggest you contact them directly. Cheers for the heads up. I'm just reading their website now... I assume I would need to register for their system builder programme. I don't suppose you know if that costs money? I understand there are issues regarding selling a Ubuntu PC with non-free applications pre-installed (e.g. medibuntu) so I assume I will have to leave them off, but perhaps give advice to those who need it. As I understand it, if you want to officially sell Ubuntu branded computers, you will have to omit the medibuntu repository from being pre-configured. I believe you can (for a fee to Canonical) license some codecs which you _can_ supply with the computers you deliver. But as I said, contact Canonical for the full details. That's interesting, as, to be honest, I think in order to convince people that Ubuntu is a serious and easy-to-use alternative to Windows, ideally the system needs to be able to just work out the box. If there are ways to do that then this can only be a good thing. Will definitely look into that. Thanks for your replies - all good stuff. Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
2009/3/25 Rob Beard r...@esdelle.co.uk: On 25/03/2009 10:24, Jamie Bennett wrote: Rob Beard wrote: I'm looking to offer a base unit, 2GHz dual core Celeron (E1400) with 2GB DDR2 PC2-6400 RAM, and a 150GB SATA hdd. Graphics, sound and ethernet are onboard. Like I said, I would install Ubuntu 8.10 (and, of course, ubuntu 9.04 when it's released!) and run through the update utility. I understand there are issues regarding selling a Ubuntu PC with non-free applications pre-installed (e.g. medibuntu) so I assume I will have to leave them off, but perhaps give advice to those who need it. Going on that spec I'd say maybe £250 to £300 would be fairly reasonable (considering you'd need to make a bit of money on it). I'd be delighted if I could get away with that; either way though it's interesting you started the bidding, as it were, at a higher point than I anticipated. Which is a good sign, hopefully. Let be honest though. A slightly higher spec model (250gb disk) with Vista will set you back £228.34 delivered (http://www.ebuyer.com/product/159369) so without the licence of Vista one would expect a slightly lower price. Also the Dell offers that pop up now and again blow this price out of the water. Do you think I might do better offering this machine with a 250GB drive? Just wondering how much space a customer might need these days... You're right, of course. It's exactly that machine you have referred to that makes me nervous about trying to sell an Ubuntu desktop (at my suggested spec) at anything above £230. To give a comparison, I built a Phenom X4 system with 2GB Ram, 250GB hard drive (onboard video and sound) for about £200 all in buying bits from Aria. I made about £15 on the system when I sold it on which really didn't cover the build and testing time I spent on it. I think the market conditions are pretty difficult at the moment, too. Understandably, perhaps, but then again I would have thought if anything the lower end of the market would be attracting more customers trying to get a cheap PC. Or maybe people just aren't buying PCs at all right now. I know eBay is no great source of information on this, but if you look at the completed listings in the desktop section, you'll see dozens of PCs every day going unsold. There doesn't seem to be any margins on PCs these days unless you can either offer some added value (such as on-site support if you're selling PCs locally) or have the buying power to buy multiple components at cheap prices. Yes, sadly... it's extremely difficult to compete without operating on razor thin margins. But it is doable. I think the key is that if you're making the same system again and again, you save time both on building and testing, as you know if it worked the first and second time, it's probably going to work on every subsequent iteration. That's where I'm at at the moment - and if I can get the necessary demand, I can place larger orders, and, fingers crossed, it would escalate from there. Cheers Ed -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
2009/3/25 Jamie Bennett ja...@linuxuk.org: Steve Cook wrote: Here's your competition http://efficientpc.co.uk/ The Wraith, same system with 2gb of ram - Ł232.61. Nice looking little system there. Great - I can definitely beat that and by some way. I can't tell whether this machine at this price includes a CD/DVD rewriter, I forgot to mention earlier that my machine does contain one of those. Any more? :-) Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu pre-installed computer prices
2009/3/25 Rob Beard r...@esdelle.co.uk: On 25/03/2009 11:47, Eddie Bernard wrote: Do you think I might do better offering this machine with a 250GB drive? Just wondering how much space a customer might need these days... You might be worth offering a 250GB drive if the cost difference isn't that much. You'd be surprised these days how much space people use. Okay lots of people are different (I'm a heavy storage space user) but some people might want to import a CD collection or store a load of photos on their PC. Thanks for that. Yes... habits are certainly changing these days (it's now almost nothing to want to download several gigabytes off bittorrent) and the cheapness of storage space means it's probably a worthwhile thing to have more space. Yep, I think a lot of people these days want laptops. For some I think they just want laptops for the status symbol they think it carries (they don't take into account that they may be buying a really low spec over priced system) where as others will make proper use of having a portable machine. The thing I don't like about laptops is the fairly obvious point that if you want to buy a new one you have no choice but to buy a new monitor as well, which seems a terrible waste of money and resources from an environmental perspective. But yes, I have definitely noticed more enquiries about laptops in the past year, particularly the netbooks. Trouble is for people like me they just aren't doable as a small retailer. Yes, sadly... it's extremely difficult to compete without operating on razor thin margins. But it is doable. I think the key is that if you're making the same system again and again, you save time both on building and testing, as you know if it worked the first and second time, it's probably going to work on every subsequent iteration. That's where I'm at at the moment - and if I can get the necessary demand, I can place larger orders, and, fingers crossed, it would escalate from there. Yep that does help. I do build PCs for clients but they tend to be more one off's. I've found I make more profit selling hardware upgrades to existing machines and replacing faulty components. Definitely. I think the reason is simple in that with upgrades, especially if you do the work on site, you get to charge for a fairer reflection of the time spent doing it. Doesn't help when you're selling Windows machines either and having to cost in £60 for Windows. A couple of local companies got round this by providing pirate copies of software but got caught out by Microsoft. I wouldn't be surprised too if there is some of this going on with eBay For sure. The Windows Problem is one I struggle with too. Whenever I do a reformat and reinstall project I'm always delighted when a customer tells me they still have the original Windows disc when they bought the computer. Saves having to shock people with a £60 price tag before I've even begun... But maybe for small businesses like ours being open with the price differential will encourage more people to dip their toe in the Ubuntu world. It doesn't help when you see the likes of Dell selling Ubuntu desktops for either the same or more than a Windows PC. (I mean, for starters I've seen some 2GHz dual core PCs listed as being 4GHz!). I was wondering where this rather odd standard has come from. It's a very bad habit... and it's only getting worse when quad-core machines are being sold as 9GHz and daft things like that. Makes it very difficult to compete honestly when you're being fair and saying my machine is 2GHz dual core when others are ramping their specs up for added attention. I'd say good luck with it anyway. Maybe something else you could consider if you can get a supply of old machines is to try providing some computers to local non-profit organisations running LTSP, I did this with the Exwick Community Centre in Exeter (luckily they got a grant to cover the server costs) and it helped spread the word a bit about Ubuntu. That's a very interesting idea - might steal it! I'm about to start a contract working for a very small local school... and I've always wanted an excuse to give Edubuntu a twirl. I might be able to try that as well. Thanks for the well wishes. All the same to you. Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
