[ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Hi My first post and its only as a result of frustration with Ubuntu. I would like to post here a post I posted in the Ubuntu forums which got no repsonse other than load the NVidia driver (not the point of the original post, and how since I had a totally black screen with a mouse pointer). Quotes --- Sorry if this seems a bit of a rant but there is now another new version Of Ubuntu that STILL does not address the fundamentals of running on a range of hardware that is fine for Windows. This has caused me a problem since 8.04 (7.10 is the last version I have run sort of successfully without having to jump through VGA driver hoops but I did have to jump through wireless drivers hoops and didnt solve them). I know VGA drivers seem to be a massive problem for Linux, but there does not seem to be a way to solve it. How do you install other drivers when the default drivers dont work - why is there no VGA mode option at boot time like (dare I say it) Windows. Why does it load with VGA drivers it knows wont work (and if it does not know, why does it not know, Windows does). I have tried the live CD on a laptop (old ATI mobile graphics) and a PC with NVidia 6800 both give me black screens with a mouse pointer. Earlier versions of Ubuntu give me various results from tiny images multiple times to psycodelic stripes. The laptop runs WinXP fine, and Win7 in VGA mode. The PC runs WinXP and Win7 perfectly with Aero (incidentally Win7 is faster). I am a Windows programmer/customer support technician with 22 years of PC experience (started as a hardware technician) all of it enduser facing so know their capabilities (or lack of). I keep trying to dabble in Linux but dont get very far in the little time I have (family) so I dont have hours of spare time to solve problems that should not exist). I know I can google and can find various commandline ways to force other drivers on (but only after I have installed it - and the live CD is meant to be a trial), what hope is there for the novice you are trying to encourage. It seems from the many blogs and forums my experiences are far from rare. Maybe I am missing some startup option but Ubuntu has done its best to hide them. The funny little icon at the bottom meaning to press a key to get some startup options, and noapci, nomodeset, etc are of course terms that even the most novice of users would understand arent they! Maybe if you have the latest dogs bo**ocks hardware Ubuntu will work (I and most of the people I know dont, especially not our business users) but Linux is advertised as being better than Windows because it is able to run on older and less able hardware, however I cant even get it to run on Harware that is more than able to run Windows 7. I have never yet failed to get a picture when installing Windows - any version, any PC of minimum spec for the version. It may only be 640*480 4 colour but at least I can see to sort it out, with Ubuntu you're truely in the dark. My years of enduser experience tells me that the CD will of hit the bottom of the bin before Windows has got back to the desktop, for people who fail to see a working (even if limited) desktop when trying the live CD. Tell me I am doing it all wrong and simple by doing it will work on anything. Remember Ubuntu is aimed at the masses who have little computer experience. I know lots of people who could install any version of Windows and end up with a working desktop (maybe not optimum but working). Very few of those people could solve this one, and would not even install Ubuntu if the Live CD didnt work. -- End of Quotes I have now tried the live CD on a Phenom X2 PC with integrated AMD 785G graphics and I did get to the desktop, so I installed. However after the successful install when I restarted the monitor just showed out of range and that was that. This is a current chipset, not an old machine. I then tried the live CD on a NEC Powermate PC with SIS integrated graphics and just get out of range on the monitor. This gives a 4 out of 4 failure rate. Why does Ubuntu try the be clever and set some weird video mode - what wrong with 1024*768 16bit colour that all these machines can run. Or if it insists on doing this why is there no boot option to force VGA mode like Windows for times when things go wrong. In view of the amount of posts regarding problems installing and getting working, and with more than 90% of solutions requiring the commandline and editing files (with vi they have no chance!) Ubuntu and Linux will never reach the masses. Also remember only very few will seek an answer, most will bin and forget. I am not trolling here, I keep telling my bosses that any development changes with our software (small commercial EPOS systems) must keep the door open to produce a Linux version in the future, but I am beginning to think that Linux will never be ready for the masses. I would like other peoples
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Thanks for replys I want to use Linux. I might use Windows, I might work with Windows, I have hated Windows since version 3 (I was there, it was good for its time), I have to admit I think they have finally got close with 7. I dont like Microsoft as a company and its actions, but I have to feed my family so I deal with it. Whilst this post might seem like I am anti Linux I am quite the opposite I am anti Windows and really want to use Linux. I have personally being trying to use Ubuntu since 7.04 but I don't have the time to faff to get a working machine when I can install XP or 7 fully loaded with drivers on virtually any machine in 3 hours or less. Maybe I wasn't clear about my points about the live CD trial. Tyler Windows does work without loading drivers. I have never yet had a PC that didnt give me a screen after installing Windows, as I said it might be 640*480 4 colour but at least I can work from there. Ubuntu gives me a blank screen, either out of range of the monitor, with only a mouse pointer or in the case of previous versions psychedelic dots and stripes. This means going to the commandline to install drivers - that just lost the majority of your audience. How does the end user with a live CD in his hand disable kernel mode settings. Al, Do you not hand out live CDs at various events, if they give the trier a black screen then they WILL end up in the bin. Whilst the masses might not install, a live cd is meant for the masses to try, is it not? As a business we have to supply varying hardware, we cant even buy the same hardware we could 6 months ago. We can get most PCs fully setup ready to ship/deliver including Windows OS install in half a day, There's no way that could be true of Ubuntu, so it would not be economic to supply even if the OS was free. Alan, I'm not a PC novice but I am a Linux novice. Not investigated how to log bugs yet, I can find out and might, but the average enduser wont. If your Mum bought a blank PC she would ask someone who knew something about computers to install it, the are many time more people who could install Windows to get a working (maybe not optimum) PC, than could get Ubuntu working. My 10 year old son could get a working PC with XP or 7 and he's never done it before or been show how to do it, no way would he get Ubuntu working. Roy Your point about the security issues in Windows are why I would like to move away for it, personally and in business but its not feasible at the moment. But my point is none of those solutions will work for the live CD, you have to take the plunge and install then delve into commandline, by which time you have potentialy trashed you PC. The point of the live CD is so you dont have to trash your PC. Chris I am not asking for everything to work perfectly I am asking for a visible desktop I can start from. How do I install the NVidia driver on the live CD, and how do I install the driver on my Phenom which I did a HDD install on but get out of range video after the restart. Sorry, I know the answer to the second but the average enduser doesnt (commandline and vi!). I used the cd to see if my hardware will work and 3 out of 4 dont, the 4th did until I installed it then it didn't. This is on a 6 year old laptop to a 6 month old Phenom II. I have access to many varied PCs so if I have time (whats that) will try a few more. I suppose my point is from where i am standing Ubuntu is as difficult to get working now as it was over 3 years ago. I can find answers and have had working(ish) copies of Ubuntu, I just cant afford the time is takes to get there. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Your missing the point, the live CD is the way to anyone other than the computer experts, and if it does not work it ends up in the bin, together with the concept of Linux. Why can it not start in a basic video mode, or at least have an option to, so the user can have a second attempt at booting it in a mode that is guaranteed to work. Now IT does what IT wants, IT doesnt work, IT hits the bin. Forget giving them the highest resolution and best 3D accelerated video it can, just give them one they can see and an option to change the screen resolution when it has loaded. Remember if the live CD fails to deliver a desktop they WILL NOT install. I'm not looking for answers to my problems directly, I am trying to point out that every failure of a live CD is not just a user who wont install Ubuntu at that time, it is has an negative impact on Linux in general, as did the failure of the preinstalled netbooks. Someone needs to take a business type view of this. If we (as a business) have a problem, yes we sort it but that invariably cost money, but we also look a why we had the problem so we can try and prevent it happening again. If there is a problem in Ubuntu then people offer solutions but no one seem to be taking the wider view as to why they happen. If the live CD does not work because it is trying to be too clever - simplfy it, dont say but if you do this, then that, then this, it will work. If we did that in business we would go bust in no time. If this was a one off with 10.10 I might not feel so strongly about this, but its always been like this, and its not doing Linux any favours. John I agree, dont just blame the user. I have spent 22 year with PC users and there are a lot incompetants but there is an awful lot of competants as well. You can not give them all substandard software then blame them all for it not working. I know there not paying for it but dont blame them for its shortcommings. What do you expect - its free will not win Linux any friends. Paul the alternate cd with commandline switch is not for your average end user trying to try Linux out. Roy when I get chance I will log the bugs, assuming the internet connection is working when I boot the live CD, I haven't got a screen to tell! and to Tim you may have had to mess with Window printer drivers but you could at least see the screen. As I said above I am not looking for answers to my problem I am trying to point out that Ubuntu has a big problem which no one seems to have addressed, and it goes back years. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
No one is addressing my point of the live CD. Al I dont doubt that once Ubuntu is working it may be less problem to maintain, and less problem to use, but if you have to edit files at the commandline to get there (read the answers to all the forum posts, this is required for a lot of solutions - I'm not imagining it) you cant do that on a live CD. Paul, Is it not the live CD that is given out at events/public places trying to get to the masses. I'm taking about the live CD, not having installed it,had it working then the driver getting stuffed up. Cant repair Xorg on a live cd. I've run the live cd on 4 differnet PCs, 3 gave me no usable desktop, one did. I installed on the one that did and after the restart the installed copy didn't give me a usable desktop. John I agree some problems never get answers, but until it is accept there are problems they never will. Clearly the regulars on here (I have been following this list for a while) will defend Ubuntu to the hilt, but if you want its use to expand someone need to accept there is a problem. I agree people want something to work first time, but if it doesnt then it has to be easy to fix, they are not Linux experts like you. If you still are giving live CDs out to the public then your wasting your time, first impression mean so much, and a bad one can set bad opinions for a long time. I will probably get it to work on one of my PCs eventually when I can trawl the bug lists and forums for a solution, but my Win 7 on an Athlon XP2500+ and Nvidia 6800 that took less than an hour to setup is working it will have to wait for some free time, but I am certain the cost of the time taken to resolve it will exceed the cost of Win 7. All I wanted was to see Ubuntu 10.10 working on a PC. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Is there a problem with digests
Hi Not posted before just read the digests, to pick up any tips, as I am just messing with ubuntu at moment in any (none!) spare time I have. However I have not received anything from ubuntu-uk since Vol 52, Issue 30 on the 23/08/2009. Is there a problem? I receive to a googlemail account and am still getting other emails and mailing list digests to this account so I doubt its an account problem at my end. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
