Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-07 Thread norman 
On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 15:44 +, Alan Pope wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 08:30:09AM +, Nicholas Butler wrote:
> > The latest Podcast from the ITIdiots provides a introduction to Linux by 
> > way of Ubuntu.
> > 
> > http://www.itidiots.com/
> > Your thoughts please ?
> > 
> 
> Ok, first two are negative.
> 
> 1. They said at the start that they would not add the linux box to their 
> active directory / domain, many reasons given, one 
> was that it was untrusted, didn't know what it would do. Whilst I agree 
> partly with the sentiment it did make me think - 
> "What? like you know exactly what all that closed-source software is doing on 
> your AD/domain any more than this open source 
> software does?". It just struck me as a negative thing to say off the bat.
> 
> 2. The very very very first demo they show a bunch of people who have never 
> seen Linux is to install a bit of software using 
> apt-get!? What on earth!? Seriously, if you were showing someone Windows for 
> the first time, would you break out a command 
> prompt window and start showing them "ipconfig /all" or whatever?
> 
> Not had a chance to watch any further, will do later tonight. Maybe it gets 
> better.

I had a look but, unfortunately, whilst the action was OK I had no
sound.

Norman


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-07 Thread Neil Greenwood 
On 07/02/07, Robin Menneer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fine.  I'll have a go and see how I get on.  I don't mind if it comes up
> different to gnome providing 1,  it works and more importantly and 2. It
> doesn't do any harm.  Ta.  Robin

1. It will work (unless someone's uploaded a broken package by
mistake, which happens very occasionally - i.e. once a year or so -
and then everyone shouts).

2. No harm, other than using more disk space and memory.

Finally, good luck with learning the new application.


Hwyl,
Neil.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-07 Thread Robin Menneer 

On 2/6/07, Robert McWilliam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:31:29 +
"Robin Menneer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm the more confused.  You both seem to say that I can use KDE
> > software on Gnome (ubuntu) if I go  to a lot of trouble (and
> > knowledge that I lack) to make  it work.  Or am I just  not
> > understanding the issues.  What I want, in the ideal situation, is
> > a list of software, as in ADD/REMOVE with a summary of its
> > functions, that I can double-click to load and run properly.
> > Someone in this conversation recommended digikam but when I looked
> > at it it was for KDE.

You can install and use KDE software in gnome without worrying about
the issues about it - the package manager will handle getting the
dependencies and the application will load all the required libraries
itself.

The explanations were to let you know of the possible downsides
to this: the application will look different to the gnome ones and
using it will use a larger amount of memory than the same functionality
in a gnome app. The memory usage isn't likely to be a problem unless
you're normally short of memory.



Fine.  I'll have a go and see how I get on.  I don't mind if it comes up
different to gnome providing 1,  it works and more importantly and 2. It
doesn't do any harm.  Ta.  Robin



Robert McWilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.ormiret.com

Cynicism is an unpleasant way of speaking the truth.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Robert McWilliam 
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:31:29 +
"Robin Menneer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm the more confused.  You both seem to say that I can use KDE
> > software on Gnome (ubuntu) if I go  to a lot of trouble (and
> > knowledge that I lack) to make  it work.  Or am I just  not
> > understanding the issues.  What I want, in the ideal situation, is
> > a list of software, as in ADD/REMOVE with a summary of its
> > functions, that I can double-click to load and run properly.
> > Someone in this conversation recommended digikam but when I looked
> > at it it was for KDE.

You can install and use KDE software in gnome without worrying about
the issues about it - the package manager will handle getting the
dependencies and the application will load all the required libraries
itself. 

The explanations were to let you know of the possible downsides
to this: the application will look different to the gnome ones and
using it will use a larger amount of memory than the same functionality
in a gnome app. The memory usage isn't likely to be a problem unless
you're normally short of memory.



Robert McWilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.ormiret.com

Cynicism is an unpleasant way of speaking the truth.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Robin Menneer 

On 2/6/07, Caroline Ford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Alan Pope wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes. I run GNOME here, see what happens when I try to install digikam
(a
>> KDE app):-
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo apt-get install digikam
>> Password:
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree
>> Reading state information... Done
>> The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
>> required:
>>   bochsbios comerr-dev libqt4-qt3support libkrb5-dev libsqlite0-dev
>> libssl-dev
>>   vgabios libqt4-sql libpq-dev libkadm55
>> Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
>> The following extra packages will be installed:
>>   kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a libarts1c2a libavahi-qt3-1 libexiv2-0.12
>> libkipi0
>> Suggested packages:
>>   digikam-doc fam
>> Recommended packages:
>>   digikamimageplugins kipi-plugins kdeprint konqueror perl-suid
>> libarts1-akode
>>   exiv2
>> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>>   digikam kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a libarts1c2a libavahi-qt3-1
>> libexiv2-0.12
>>   libkipi0
>> 0 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
>> Need to get 23.3MB of archives.
>> After unpacking 77.5MB of additional disk space will be used.
>> Do you want to continue [Y/n]?
>>
>> Note that digikam requires various extra kde packages "kdelibs-data",
>> "kdelibs4c2a" and so on. Of course if you did the same - installed
>> something like gnome-baker on KDE you'd see the same effect in reverse
-
>> it would want the gnome libs.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Al.
>>
Of course you only ever need to do this once. I run my desktop like this
so I can run amarok, krita and digikam in a gnome environment. Why -
because I prefer them to the gnome equivalents but still prefer the feel
of gnome to the feel of kde. Thankfully with free software I have this
choice and can make my set up as I like it :)

However I wouldn't dream of doing this on an old machine - but then I
wouldn't run gnome either - I'd use Xubuntu as it's more lightweight.
The machine I'm typing on now is so old (p166 laptop) I wouldn't really
put anything other than fluxbox on it ;)

Caroline (secretlondon)

I'm the more confused.  You both seem to say that I can use KDE software
on Gnome (ubuntu) if I go  to a lot of trouble (and knowledge that I lack)
to make  it work.  Or am I just  not understanding the issues.  What I want,
in the ideal situation, is a list of software, as in ADD/REMOVE with a
summary of its functions, that I can double-click to load and run properly.
Someone in this conversation recommended digikam but when I looked at it it
was for KDE.






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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Caroline Ford 
Alan Pope wrote:
>>   
>>
>> Yes. I run GNOME here, see what happens when I try to install digikam (a
>> KDE app):-
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo apt-get install digikam
>> Password:
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree   
>> Reading state information... Done
>> The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
>> required:
>>   bochsbios comerr-dev libqt4-qt3support libkrb5-dev libsqlite0-dev
>> libssl-dev
>>   vgabios libqt4-sql libpq-dev libkadm55
>> Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
>> The following extra packages will be installed:
>>   kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a libarts1c2a libavahi-qt3-1 libexiv2-0.12
>> libkipi0
>> Suggested packages:
>>   digikam-doc fam
>> Recommended packages:
>>   digikamimageplugins kipi-plugins kdeprint konqueror perl-suid
>> libarts1-akode
>>   exiv2
>> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>>   digikam kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a libarts1c2a libavahi-qt3-1
>> libexiv2-0.12
>>   libkipi0
>> 0 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
>> Need to get 23.3MB of archives.
>> After unpacking 77.5MB of additional disk space will be used.
>> Do you want to continue [Y/n]? 
>>
>> Note that digikam requires various extra kde packages "kdelibs-data",
>> "kdelibs4c2a" and so on. Of course if you did the same - installed
>> something like gnome-baker on KDE you'd see the same effect in reverse -
>> it would want the gnome libs.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Al.
>> 
Of course you only ever need to do this once. I run my desktop like this 
so I can run amarok, krita and digikam in a gnome environment. Why - 
because I prefer them to the gnome equivalents but still prefer the feel 
of gnome to the feel of kde. Thankfully with free software I have this 
choice and can make my set up as I like it :)

However I wouldn't dream of doing this on an old machine - but then I 
wouldn't run gnome either - I'd use Xubuntu as it's more lightweight. 
The machine I'm typing on now is so old (p166 laptop) I wouldn't really 
put anything other than fluxbox on it ;)

Caroline (secretlondon)

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Alan Pope 
On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 17:51 +, Robin Menneer wrote:

> 
> This is news indeed.  Having  read  the wranglings  between  the
> protagonists of the various versions of Linux, I had gained the
> impression that software was exclusive to the basis sprecification. 

It's true to say that often a "package" will work on one distribution
and not another, however there are some overlaps. Many .deb packages
will work on many of the debian based distributions with little or no
modification.

Indeed the "upstream" source code (which is invariably free) can usually
be compiled manually to run on any distribution at all. For example the
Kernel is a prime example of that. The kernel you use under redhat or
fedora is essentially the same as the kernel compiled under debian or
ubuntu. Ok, each distribution may slighly tweak the vanilla kernel by
adding their own patches or enhancements, but to all intents and
purposes its the same product, just packaged differently.

>  Does it mean that it's all complatible although possibly less
> efficient = slower ?  

Not sure about that. If you took a very low spec machine and ran GNOME
with KDE applications on top you would of course get the memory hit of
having both GNOME and KDE libs in memory at once. How much of a hit I
couldnt say, I am fortunate enough to not be in that situation.

> Presumably the extra libraries load themselves automatically with the
> package being acquirered.  
> 

Yes. I run GNOME here, see what happens when I try to install digikam (a
KDE app):-

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo apt-get install digikam
Password:
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
required:
  bochsbios comerr-dev libqt4-qt3support libkrb5-dev libsqlite0-dev
libssl-dev
  vgabios libqt4-sql libpq-dev libkadm55
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following extra packages will be installed:
  kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a libarts1c2a libavahi-qt3-1 libexiv2-0.12
libkipi0
Suggested packages:
  digikam-doc fam
Recommended packages:
  digikamimageplugins kipi-plugins kdeprint konqueror perl-suid
libarts1-akode
  exiv2
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  digikam kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a libarts1c2a libavahi-qt3-1
libexiv2-0.12
  libkipi0
0 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
Need to get 23.3MB of archives.
After unpacking 77.5MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]? 

Note that digikam requires various extra kde packages "kdelibs-data",
"kdelibs4c2a" and so on. Of course if you did the same - installed
something like gnome-baker on KDE you'd see the same effect in reverse -
it would want the gnome libs.

Cheers,
Al.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Robin Menneer 

On 2/6/07, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 12:46:03PM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> We use all the facilities in iphoto.  I've had a good look at f-spot
and,
> >although very friendly, it falls far short of iphoto.  Can I use KDE
> >derived
> >digikam if I am in ubuntu which I see from this site is Gnome based ?
>

Yes, you can run KDE apps in Ubuntu and GNOME apps in Kubuntu. However:-

* KDE apps don't integrate (look and feel as well as functionality) with
GNOME and GNOME apps don't integrate with
KDE
* You will have to download extra packages such as the necessary KDE
libraries, and any updates to them also.
* Using KDE and GNOME apps together will have a higher memory footprint as
you will have libraries from both in
memory at once.



This is news indeed.  Having  read  the wranglings  between  the
protagonists of the various versions of Linux, I had gained the impression
that software was exclusive to the basis sprecification.  Does it mean that
it's all complatible although possibly less efficient = slower ?  Presumably
the extra libraries load themselves automatically with the package being
acquirered.  In gratitude   Robin


>This is something i have heard time and time again for many years. "If I
> >press the wrong button I might break it".
> >Clearly you can break a computer from the command line as you can from
> >within a friendly GUI, but the command line
> >with its obscure incantations can make this somewhat easier to achieve
> >unfortunately, especially if you are just
> >typing commands barked at you by an admin person.
>
> Look, I've been with computers since 1971 and know very well what
> injudicious use of the keyboard can do if in terminal mode.  Most
beginners
> are in the same position but haven't been told so.
>

Not sure if the "Look," was "Listen here sonny", but I was actually
agreeing with you.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Alan Pope 
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 12:46:03PM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> We use all the facilities in iphoto.  I've had a good look at f-spot and,
> >although very friendly, it falls far short of iphoto.  Can I use KDE 
> >derived
> >digikam if I am in ubuntu which I see from this site is Gnome based ?
> 

Yes, you can run KDE apps in Ubuntu and GNOME apps in Kubuntu. However:-

* KDE apps don't integrate (look and feel as well as functionality) with GNOME 
and GNOME apps don't integrate with 
KDE
* You will have to download extra packages such as the necessary KDE libraries, 
and any updates to them also.
* Using KDE and GNOME apps together will have a higher memory footprint as you 
will have libraries from both in 
memory at once.

> >This is something i have heard time and time again for many years. "If I
> >press the wrong button I might break it".
> >Clearly you can break a computer from the command line as you can from
> >within a friendly GUI, but the command line
> >with its obscure incantations can make this somewhat easier to achieve
> >unfortunately, especially if you are just
> >typing commands barked at you by an admin person.
> 
> Look, I've been with computers since 1971 and know very well what
> injudicious use of the keyboard can do if in terminal mode.  Most beginners
> are in the same position but haven't been told so.
> 

Not sure if the "Look," was "Listen here sonny", but I was actually agreeing 
with you.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Daniel Watkins 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Robin Menneer wrote:
> We use all the facilities in iphoto.  I've had a good look at f-spot
> and, although very friendly, it falls far short of iphoto.  Can I
> use KDE derived digikam if I am in ubuntu which I see from this site
> is Gnome based ? 
Yeah, you'll just get some KDE libraries installed as well.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Robin Menneer 

On 2/6/07, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 12:09:42PM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> On 2/5/07, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:44:02AM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> >> Useless to me, a beginner.  Concepts  are too advanced and gappy in
> >> presentation.  Nevertheless a well-intentioned try which should be
> >> encouraged.
> >>
> >
> >Ok, so what *would* be useful to you as a beginner?
> Oh dear, where do I start ?
>

Oh-oh. Sounds ominous.

> I've only had ubuntu a few months and am enjoying it more than I have
any
> other system.

Fantastic, that's a good start :)

> I started with a Commodore Pet when it first came out as
> being freedom from the main frame, and have kept away from Windows since
it
> started.

That's some achievement. Many people find it difficult avoiding Windows -
especially in the workplace.

> Like many other retireds, I am involved in voluntary work which requires
> little more than Open Office backed by a friendly file manager.   But we
use
> photos (you can see the direction we are going at www.cornishedges.com)
and
> find we can cope with iphoto (on the other machine), it's a brilliantly
> simple and effective program.   Am looking for a ubuntu substitute for
it
> because I don't want to be tied to apple any more than I can help.

Ok, I'd suggest either f-spot or digikam. Both are very iPhoto-like in
operation. Not complex like the GIMP.

>  Gimp
> (the newer version) looks promising but is much too complicated for my
> greenhorn missus who does a lot with pictures.

Out of interest what do you do with them? Resizing and cropping or full on
editing?





We use all the facilities in iphoto.  I've had a good look at f-spot and,

although very friendly, it falls far short of iphoto.  Can I use KDE derived
digikam if I am in ubuntu which I see from this site is Gnome based ?






As with most other people, I want to expand my expertise but to limit the
> demands on my skill to a drag-and-drop kind of application install, or a
> double-click.  The ubuntu add-and-remove facility is brilliant, and
t'would
> be wonderful if all the proven applications (as bug-free as is
reasonable)
> could be obtained off the web using the add/remove for access to a
> hierarchically arranged (and/or spot-lighted to 7 keyword description)
list
> of packages (all thousands of them ?).

The Linspire people are doing exactly this with their "click and run" [0]
system. I have not used it with ubuntu but
they claim Ubuntu is a supported platform.
So do you suggest I do something with LInspire and if so, how does it work
with ubuntu ?
> A thickie-trapped procendure is
> necessary.

Heh, clearly not PC but I know what you mean.

> Anything that requires the entry of code via the terminal is
> out.

I totally agree. In my opinion the terminal should be avoided at all
costs. Whenever giving support I try to coach
people to use the GUI rather than the terminal. It is of course faster for
some "experts" to use the command line now
and then, and will be more flexible in some cases, but for the newbie I
don't think they "need" to see it.

> My brain is too addled and ancient to try to forget Fortran and DOS
> and to use the terminal, tempting though it is.  I don't want to risk
> chewing up the installation by  pressing the wrong key.

This is something i have heard time and time again for many years. "If I
press the wrong button I might break it".
Clearly you can break a computer from the command line as you can from
within a friendly GUI, but the command line
with its obscure incantations can make this somewhat easier to achieve
unfortunately, especially if you are just
typing commands barked at you by an admin person.





Look, I've been with computers since 1971 and know very well what

injudicious use of the keyboard can do if in terminal mode.  Most beginners
are in the same position but haven't been told so.





I've just realised a difference between OSX and ubuntu, mac is forgiving but

doen't tell you so (with the result that one continues  to rattle on
blindly), ubuntu is forgiving but tells you so nicely that one feels ok
about it.  The word "error", much beloved, I am told, in Windows, should be
banned. Remember that, at my thickie level, it should always be the computer
that is wrong (or rather that the software is inadequate).  Thanks for the
interest.  Robin






I gather that ubuntu is generally regarded as the entry point for linux -
I
> came in via Suse which I dumped when they got tied up with Novell,
getting a
> mac mini (I couldn't resist the price) in addition to my 6 year old PC
> laptop.  Yet I get the impression that other versions of linux may be
> superior.  I only want the best and must rely on the linux world to
guide
> me, not to confuse me  - which is what is happening now.
> Is the above any use as a start ?   I'm happy to help.  Regards, Robin
>

Thanks for the input, very helpful. I always like to hear how n

Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-06 Thread Alan Pope 
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 12:09:42PM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> On 2/5/07, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:44:02AM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> >> Useless to me, a beginner.  Concepts  are too advanced and gappy in
> >> presentation.  Nevertheless a well-intentioned try which should be
> >> encouraged.
> >>
> >
> >Ok, so what *would* be useful to you as a beginner?
> Oh dear, where do I start ?
> 

Oh-oh. Sounds ominous.

> I've only had ubuntu a few months and am enjoying it more than I have any
> other system.

Fantastic, that's a good start :)

> I started with a Commodore Pet when it first came out as
> being freedom from the main frame, and have kept away from Windows since it
> started.

That's some achievement. Many people find it difficult avoiding Windows - 
especially in the workplace.

> Like many other retireds, I am involved in voluntary work which requires
> little more than Open Office backed by a friendly file manager.   But we use
> photos (you can see the direction we are going at www.cornishedges.com) and
> find we can cope with iphoto (on the other machine), it's a brilliantly
> simple and effective program.   Am looking for a ubuntu substitute for it
> because I don't want to be tied to apple any more than I can help.

Ok, I'd suggest either f-spot or digikam. Both are very iPhoto-like in 
operation. Not complex like the GIMP.

>  Gimp
> (the newer version) looks promising but is much too complicated for my
> greenhorn missus who does a lot with pictures.

Out of interest what do you do with them? Resizing and cropping or full on 
editing?

> As with most other people, I want to expand my expertise but to limit the
> demands on my skill to a drag-and-drop kind of application install, or a
> double-click.  The ubuntu add-and-remove facility is brilliant, and t'would
> be wonderful if all the proven applications (as bug-free as is reasonable)
> could be obtained off the web using the add/remove for access to a
> hierarchically arranged (and/or spot-lighted to 7 keyword description) list
> of packages (all thousands of them ?). 

The Linspire people are doing exactly this with their "click and run" [0] 
system. I have not used it with ubuntu but 
they claim Ubuntu is a supported platform.

> A thickie-trapped procendure is
> necessary. 

Heh, clearly not PC but I know what you mean. 

> Anything that requires the entry of code via the terminal is
> out.

I totally agree. In my opinion the terminal should be avoided at all costs. 
Whenever giving support I try to coach 
people to use the GUI rather than the terminal. It is of course faster for some 
"experts" to use the command line now 
and then, and will be more flexible in some cases, but for the newbie I don't 
think they "need" to see it.

> My brain is too addled and ancient to try to forget Fortran and DOS
> and to use the terminal, tempting though it is.  I don't want to risk
> chewing up the installation by  pressing the wrong key.

This is something i have heard time and time again for many years. "If I press 
the wrong button I might break it". 
Clearly you can break a computer from the command line as you can from within a 
friendly GUI, but the command line 
with its obscure incantations can make this somewhat easier to achieve 
unfortunately, especially if you are just 
typing commands barked at you by an admin person.

> I gather that ubuntu is generally regarded as the entry point for linux - I
> came in via Suse which I dumped when they got tied up with Novell, getting a
> mac mini (I couldn't resist the price) in addition to my 6 year old PC
> laptop.  Yet I get the impression that other versions of linux may be
> superior.  I only want the best and must rely on the linux world to guide
> me, not to confuse me  - which is what is happening now.
> Is the above any use as a start ?   I'm happy to help.  Regards, Robin
> 

Thanks for the input, very helpful. I always like to hear how non-experts are 
getting on with Ubuntu, and what their 
challenges are. 

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread Alan Pope 
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 08:30:09AM +, Nicholas Butler wrote:
> The latest Podcast from the ITIdiots provides a introduction to Linux by 
> way of Ubuntu.
> 
> http://www.itidiots.com/
> Your thoughts please ?
> 

Ok, first two are negative.

1. They said at the start that they would not add the linux box to their active 
directory / domain, many reasons given, one 
was that it was untrusted, didn't know what it would do. Whilst I agree partly 
with the sentiment it did make me think - 
"What? like you know exactly what all that closed-source software is doing on 
your AD/domain any more than this open source 
software does?". It just struck me as a negative thing to say off the bat.

2. The very very very first demo they show a bunch of people who have never 
seen Linux is to install a bit of software using 
apt-get!? What on earth!? Seriously, if you were showing someone Windows for 
the first time, would you break out a command 
prompt window and start showing them "ipconfig /all" or whatever?

Not had a chance to watch any further, will do later tonight. Maybe it gets 
better.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread Nicholas Butler 
I wrote to Nicholas Hill one of the presenters on the show and 
volunteered to help. He wrote back and agreed that they needed some 
Linux talking head experience and have asked me for some ideas which I 
provided;

1. Reintroduce Ubuntu living more Gui than command line and less Automatix
2. Gallery, FSpot and Flickr
3. Basic  SME configuration for Ubuntu Server ( Mail, File, Wiki and  
Backups )
4. Getting Help and Getting advice from the OSS community ( Maillists, 
IRC, Forums, Linux User groups )
5. Living in Linux, the Ubuntu Desktop for daily users (e.g. Mail, 
Browsers, CDrecording, Camera and Printing )

Now the screencast team are already most of the ways into some of these 
so this is a great opportunity to repeat and re-iterate the good stuff 
and point the way to getting support in the long term to new users. Im 
awaiting a response from Mr Hill.


Nik


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread alan c 
Robin Menneer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/5/07, *Alan Pope* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:44:02AM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
>  > Useless to me, a beginner.  Concepts  are too advanced and gappy in
>  > presentation.  Nevertheless a well-intentioned try which should be
>  > encouraged.
>  >
> 
> Ok, so what *would* be useful to you as a beginner?
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Oh dear, where do I start ?
> 
> I've only had ubuntu a few months and am enjoying it more than I have 
> any other system.  I started with a Commodore Pet when it first came out 
> as being freedom from the main frame, and have kept away from Windows 
> since it started.
> Like many other retireds, I am involved in voluntary work which requires 
> little more than Open Office backed by a friendly file manager.   But we 
> use photos (you can see the direction we are going at 
> www.cornishedges.com ) and find we can cope 
> with iphoto (on the other machine), it's a brilliantly simple and 
> effective program.   Am looking for a ubuntu substitute for it because I 
> don't want to be tied to apple any more than I can help.  Gimp (the 
> newer version) looks promising but is much too complicated for my 
> greenhorn missus who does a lot with pictures. 

yes gimp is too complex for beginners including me

>  As with most other people, I want to expand my expertise but to limit 
> the demands on my skill to a drag-and-drop kind of application install, 
> or a double-click.  The ubuntu add-and-remove facility is brilliant, and 
> t'would be wonderful if all the proven applications (as bug-free as is 
> reasonable) could be obtained off the web using the add/remove for 
> access to a hierarchically arranged (and/or spot-lighted to 7 keyword 
> description) list of packages (all thousands of them ?).  A 
> thickie-trapped procendure is necessary.  Anything that requires the 
> entry of code via the terminal is out.  My brain is too addled and 
> ancient to try to forget Fortran and DOS and to use the terminal, 
> tempting though it is.  I don't want to risk chewing up the installation 
> by  pressing the wrong key.
> I gather that ubuntu is generally regarded as the entry point for linux 

I think it is more the peak of distros! - (although I prefer Kubuntu).
It is a very popular choice - It expects just 'to work', with 
humanity, with an excellent community, worldwide, etc.
My entry point was also suse, but I found I liked (k)ubuntu better.

> - I came in via Suse which I dumped when they got tied up with Novell, 
> getting a mac mini (I couldn't resist the price) in addition to my 6 
> year old PC laptop.  Yet I get the impression that other versions of 
> linux may be superior.

Interesting impression. The way to find out is to use the many live 
CDs of course.(see www.distrowatch.com).

>  I only want the best 

Ubuntu is the best.

> and must rely on the linux 
> world to guide me

May I suggest you make decisions for yourself.

> not to confuse me  - which is what is happening now.
then make your own opinions, there is a lot of hot air around.

-- 
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Kubuntu user#10391

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread Robin Menneer 

On 2/5/07, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:44:02AM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> Useless to me, a beginner.  Concepts  are too advanced and gappy in
> presentation.  Nevertheless a well-intentioned try which should be
> encouraged.
>

Ok, so what *would* be useful to you as a beginner?





Oh dear, where do I start ?

I've only had ubuntu a few months and am enjoying it more than I have any
other system.  I started with a Commodore Pet when it first came out as
being freedom from the main frame, and have kept away from Windows since it
started.
Like many other retireds, I am involved in voluntary work which requires
little more than Open Office backed by a friendly file manager.   But we use
photos (you can see the direction we are going at www.cornishedges.com) and
find we can cope with iphoto (on the other machine), it's a brilliantly
simple and effective program.   Am looking for a ubuntu substitute for it
because I don't want to be tied to apple any more than I can help.  Gimp
(the newer version) looks promising but is much too complicated for my
greenhorn missus who does a lot with pictures.
As with most other people, I want to expand my expertise but to limit the
demands on my skill to a drag-and-drop kind of application install, or a
double-click.  The ubuntu add-and-remove facility is brilliant, and t'would
be wonderful if all the proven applications (as bug-free as is reasonable)
could be obtained off the web using the add/remove for access to a
hierarchically arranged (and/or spot-lighted to 7 keyword description) list
of packages (all thousands of them ?).  A thickie-trapped procendure is
necessary.  Anything that requires the entry of code via the terminal is
out.  My brain is too addled and ancient to try to forget Fortran and DOS
and to use the terminal, tempting though it is.  I don't want to risk
chewing up the installation by  pressing the wrong key.
I gather that ubuntu is generally regarded as the entry point for linux - I
came in via Suse which I dumped when they got tied up with Novell, getting a
mac mini (I couldn't resist the price) in addition to my 6 year old PC
laptop.  Yet I get the impression that other versions of linux may be
superior.  I only want the best and must rely on the linux world to guide
me, not to confuse me  - which is what is happening now.
Is the above any use as a start ?   I'm happy to help.  Regards, Robin




As part of the screencast project I am keen to know what beginners

want/need. What do you feel you didn't know that you think
you needed to?

What was missing?

Any input greatfully received.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread Alan Pope 
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:44:02AM +, Robin Menneer wrote:
> Useless to me, a beginner.  Concepts  are too advanced and gappy in
> presentation.  Nevertheless a well-intentioned try which should be
> encouraged.
> 

Ok, so what *would* be useful to you as a beginner?

As part of the screencast project I am keen to know what beginners want/need. 
What do you feel you didn't know that you think 
you needed to?

What was missing?

Any input greatfully received.

Cheers,
Al.

-- 
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread Robin Menneer 

Useless to me, a beginner.  Concepts  are too advanced and gappy in
presentation.  Nevertheless a well-intentioned try which should be
encouraged.

On 2/5/07, David Morley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 05/02/07, Nicholas Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The latest Podcast from the ITIdiots provides a introduction to Linux by
> way of Ubuntu.
>
> http://www.itidiots.com/
>
>
> Your thoughts please ?
>
It's the dummies guide to ubuntu on video.  :)

In fairness if a bunch of windows users who had never heard of
linux/ubuntu watched it they would probably look at ubuntu a little
closer and with less trepidation.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread David Morley 
On 05/02/07, Nicholas Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The latest Podcast from the ITIdiots provides a introduction to Linux by
> way of Ubuntu.
>
> http://www.itidiots.com/
>
>
> Your thoughts please ?
>
It's the dummies guide to ubuntu on video.  :)

In fairness if a bunch of windows users who had never heard of
linux/ubuntu watched it they would probably look at ubuntu a little
closer and with less trepidation.

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[ubuntu-uk] IT Idiots cover introducing Linux.

2007-02-05 Thread Nicholas Butler 
The latest Podcast from the ITIdiots provides a introduction to Linux by 
way of Ubuntu.

http://www.itidiots.com/


Your thoughts please ?


Nik

ps.
im  in no way affiliated to the show im just pointing out the podcast 
for interested parties.



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