Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
On 11/05/2008, Thomas Ibbotson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Dobson wrote: == RMS Video: == The video of last week's Manchester Free Software, (in collaboration with the BCS and IET) talk by Richard Stallman has been released, thanks to Andrew John Hughes. Thanks for this. I've finally had the time to watch it, I found it very entertaining and interesting. I've never heard a talk by Richard Stallman, he clearly does that sort of thing a lot and has some very well laid out and convincing arguments. I am interested in particular in the relationship between software freedom, copyright and patenting. There seems to be a problem here in a clash between the rights of the users and the rights of the creators/inventors. I agree that it is right for users to be in control of the software that they own, and that a part of that is the requirement that they should be able to obtain the help of others in getting that control by providing copies of the code both modified and not to allow others to help them modify it to do what they want (if it doesn't already!). However, I am also in favour of credit being given where it's due, and allowing creators/inventors to profit from their work. If someone has put in the time and effort to create or improve something that other people would like to use, surely they should be allowed to profit from it. I'm going to ignore patents in this argument, because applying them to software is just stupid (see link below). However, applying a different copyright, such as the GPL does not stop credit from being given to the author - in fact it's usually up there at the top of every file. I would say I know the authors of more free software than proprietary software. How to make money from free software is an interesting and difficult topic but you only have to have a quick look around the Internet to see that an increasing number of companies are managing. As a software developer myself I expect to be paid for my work (excluding volunteer work), the license applied to the end product does not change that, it just means that in the case of free software that the customer gets a fair deal. Personally, I work for the tax payer (like a large number of people in this country), so I think it's particularly important that the work is released under a free license. Dont' forget that new software is always going to be needed and companies will still pay to have it written. In addition, about 80% of all software is solely developed and used inhouse anyway, so the license is not really relevant in those cases. I believe it's possible to make money from free software, by being paid to write a new/alter an existing program, from support and merchandise, and probably from many other ways that I've not considered. But, ultimately, like Stallman said in his talk, there's no fundamental right to having a job as a programmer; if it comes to it there's always other jobs you can do and you can still program in your spare time. The important bit is releasing the program as free software, so that other people can benefit. I would recommend looking at the articles and essays on this site for more and better information: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html I hope that makes sense, it's very early at the moment! -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
Lucy wrote: How to make money from free software is an interesting and difficult topic I really don't think that's true - for me, it's a straightforward and simple topic that has provided over 12 years of stable employment. As a programmer or project manager, I've written or helped write plenty of systems based on free software. For example, as development manager for MessageLabs' anti-spam service for four years. This was a well-paid job which used free software almost exclusively (notably, spamassassin). We customised lots of free software to fit our employer's requirements, and contributed any improvements back to the free project. The way to make money from free software is to find an employer who wants something custom, bespoke, written for them. You then take a free software package as your starting point, write the customisations, get paid, and release it. Customisations fit into two categories: * Configuration * Improvements Configuration is generally of no interest to the wider public and is not usually covered by GPL-like licences, ergo does not usually require open source release. Improvements are covered usually by GPL and similar, and, if the result is released to the public, the source code must be available to the public too. Releasing source code to the public can be a tricky argument to win with some employers, but they have to remember that for GPL code it is a legal duty, not something that can be opted out of. The trick to make things easier is to keep the programming generic, and add specific company stuff in the configuration. Several companies I've worked for have also insisted that all GPL upstream releases must be made in the individual names of the programmers, instead of the name of the company (MessageLabs, for example). -- Andrew Oakley -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
On 11/05/2008, Andrew Oakley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lucy wrote: How to make money from free software is an interesting and difficult topic I really don't think that's true - for me, it's a straightforward and simple topic that has provided over 12 years of stable employment. As a programmer or project manager, I've written or helped write plenty of systems based on free software. For example, as development manager for MessageLabs' anti-spam service for four years. This was a well-paid job which used free software almost exclusively (notably, spamassassin). We customised lots of free software to fit our employer's requirements, and contributed any improvements back to the free project. Thanks for your comments. It's always really interesting to hear other people's stories about making money from free software. Unfortunately, a lot of employers don't see it this way, actually a lot of programmers don't see it either. I live with two people who make a living writing proprietary software and sometimes it seems like we are fighting an uphill battle to convince people that free software is viable.. The way to make money from free software is to find an employer who wants something custom, bespoke, written for them. You then take a free software package as your starting point, write the customisations, get paid, and release it. .. that's very true and a technique I will try to remember in future, as I can see it coming in handy for certain employers! -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
Matthew Wild wrote: On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Thomas Ibbotson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I am also in favour of credit being given where it's due, and allowing creators/inventors to profit from their work. If someone has put in the time and effort to create or improve something that other people would like to use, surely they should be allowed to profit from it. Credit is always given, the original creators hold the copyright. They are also not stopped from profiting from it... Now I know free software does not mean free as in beer, so it is perfectly possible for creators/inventors to profit from their work by charging a fee for it initially. However once it has been bought by one person, who is then free to distribute it and modify it, there is no guarantee that the original creator can obtain anything further. ...how they profit is another matter. In his talk Richard mentions several ways that this could be achieved for free software. He mentions the fact that developers could provide support, at cost, for the software, much like canonical do for ubuntu. However this is not rewarding the original work, this is rewarding the additional effort of supporting the software, expended above and beyond the original effort to develop the software in the first place. Actually Ubuntu was not wholly developed by Canonical. They used free software to build it, and this is where they gain (as everyone does) from making their software free (as in freedom). In effect I see it as: Loss * They potentially lost profit from direct sales of the product Gain * Fast development time (because they could use existing Free software) * No costs involved for using this tried, tested, external software in theirs * They benefit from a (potentially) unlimited number of developers, which they don't have to pay * They benefit in various ways from the community that builds around their project Community benefit: I am very well motivated to help with things ubuntu, representing in person, marketing, advocacy etc as almost a full time activity (I have the time) entirely at my own cost. I may be a bit unusual but I am skilled and as effective as I was when I was reasonably well paid by a large water utility for a full time job. I have a passion rooting for ubuntu and free software. What would happen if it became too proprietary? This passion would quickly evaporate. My imagined replacement would be expensive, maybe with less motivation. I would probably be lost as a customer too, and all my influenced contacts. That is a big downtrade I think. I do understand about wanting payment for programming work, (which could of course be software libre any way?) but some large old style companies are finding things may not be going their way. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
Hosting companies are perfect example of this... apache, sendmail, mysql, php, GNU/Linux, community support are all free yet hosting companies profit from Free software. As for developers... if you have made a name for yourself, the chances are a company will employ you to administer systems using the software you've contributed to, or to use those skills elsewhere (see Ian Murdoch) On 11 May 2008, at 21:29, alan c wrote: Matthew Wild wrote: On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Thomas Ibbotson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I am also in favour of credit being given where it's due, and allowing creators/inventors to profit from their work. If someone has put in the time and effort to create or improve something that other people would like to use, surely they should be allowed to profit from it. Credit is always given, the original creators hold the copyright. They are also not stopped from profiting from it... Now I know free software does not mean free as in beer, so it is perfectly possible for creators/inventors to profit from their work by charging a fee for it initially. However once it has been bought by one person, who is then free to distribute it and modify it, there is no guarantee that the original creator can obtain anything further. ...how they profit is another matter. In his talk Richard mentions several ways that this could be achieved for free software. He mentions the fact that developers could provide support, at cost, for the software, much like canonical do for ubuntu. However this is not rewarding the original work, this is rewarding the additional effort of supporting the software, expended above and beyond the original effort to develop the software in the first place. Actually Ubuntu was not wholly developed by Canonical. They used free software to build it, and this is where they gain (as everyone does) from making their software free (as in freedom). In effect I see it as: Loss * They potentially lost profit from direct sales of the product Gain * Fast development time (because they could use existing Free software) * No costs involved for using this tried, tested, external software in theirs * They benefit from a (potentially) unlimited number of developers, which they don't have to pay * They benefit in various ways from the community that builds around their project Community benefit: I am very well motivated to help with things ubuntu, representing in person, marketing, advocacy etc as almost a full time activity (I have the time) entirely at my own cost. I may be a bit unusual but I am skilled and as effective as I was when I was reasonably well paid by a large water utility for a full time job. I have a passion rooting for ubuntu and free software. What would happen if it became too proprietary? This passion would quickly evaporate. My imagined replacement would be expensive, maybe with less motivation. I would probably be lost as a customer too, and all my influenced contacts. That is a big downtrade I think. I do understand about wanting payment for programming work, (which could of course be software libre any way?) but some large old style companies are finding things may not be going their way. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
Tim Dobson wrote: == RMS Video: == The video of last week's Manchester Free Software, (in collaboration with the BCS and IET) talk by Richard Stallman has been released, thanks to Andrew John Hughes. You can find a torrent and http mirrors for the video on the Manchester Free Software Website. Where possible, please use the torrent. :) For more information please visit: http://manchester.fsuk.org/blog/2008/05/06/free-software-in-ethics-and-society-richard-stallman-manchester-1st-may/ Please forward this to any other lists where you think it might be of interest. = Next Meeting: = The next Manchester Free Software Meeting is on the 20th of May at Manchester Digital Development Agency. See you there! | Manchester Free Software Group | | http://manchester.fsuk.org | Thanks for this. I've finally had the time to watch it, I found it very entertaining and interesting. I've never heard a talk by Richard Stallman, he clearly does that sort of thing a lot and has some very well laid out and convincing arguments. I am interested in particular in the relationship between software freedom, copyright and patenting. There seems to be a problem here in a clash between the rights of the users and the rights of the creators/inventors. I agree that it is right for users to be in control of the software that they own, and that a part of that is the requirement that they should be able to obtain the help of others in getting that control by providing copies of the code both modified and not to allow others to help them modify it to do what they want (if it doesn't already!). However, I am also in favour of credit being given where it's due, and allowing creators/inventors to profit from their work. If someone has put in the time and effort to create or improve something that other people would like to use, surely they should be allowed to profit from it. Now I know free software does not mean free as in beer, so it is perfectly possible for creators/inventors to profit from their work by charging a fee for it initially. However once it has been bought by one person, who is then free to distribute it and modify it, there is no guarantee that the original creator can obtain anything further. So, in order for the effort to be worthwhile for the original creator and consequently to encourage other people to try and create/invent things that other people want to use/enjoy there has to be some mechanism for them to profit from their work. In his talk Richard mentions several ways that this could be achieved for free software. He mentions the fact that developers could provide support, at cost, for the software, much like canonical do for ubuntu. However this is not rewarding the original work, this is rewarding the additional effort of supporting the software, expended above and beyond the original effort to develop the software in the first place. So copyright and patenting has been developed to ensure that creators/inventors can profit from their work. I agree that this has probably gone too far, in that it is restricting users' freedoms in the case of software. So Richard's solution to ensure people's freedom is to reject the idea of copyright, but that leaves us in a situation that prevents us from being able to ensure that creators get what they deserve. I have no solution for this, I have a dilemma in that I agree in the 4 freedoms Richard defines in his talk, they are based on good fundamental principles, but I also can see that those freedoms could prevent the creators from duly profiting from their work, which I also think is important. I believe that useful work should not go unrewarded, it allows the originator to go on and produce more good work and provides an incentive for others to attempt to produce good work. So, if any of you got this far, what are people's opinions on this? Should I just accept that creators/inventors need to find other ways of earning money and only work on these things as a hobby as Richard seems to suggest? Or should the apparent conflict between the freedoms and my view that the creator should profit from their work cause me to reject some/all of them? Is there a solution I have missed? Is there a reasonable compromise? Tom -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
On Tue, 2008-05-06 at 18:03 +0100, Tim Dobson wrote: Where possible, please use the torrent. :) Which bizzarely contains multiple copies of the video. I am motivated to _not_ use torrent in this situation for this reason. The torrent is considerably larger than one single video. Cheers, Al. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
Tim Dobson wrote: == RMS Video: == The video of last week's Manchester Free Software, (in collaboration with the BCS and IET) talk by Richard Stallman has been released, thanks to Andrew John Hughes. You can find a torrent and http mirrors for the video on the Manchester Free Software Website. Where possible, please use the torrent. :) For more information please visit: http://manchester.fsuk.org/blog/2008/05/06/free-software-in-ethics-and-society-richard-stallman-manchester-1st-may/ Thanks for the heads up! It is very informative, also entertaining, and a significant event in my appreciation of free software. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
On 5/7/08, Alan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-05-06 at 18:03 +0100, Tim Dobson wrote: Where possible, please use the torrent. :) Which bizzarely contains multiple copies of the video. I am motivated to _not_ use torrent in this situation for this reason. The torrent is considerably larger than one single video. I just unticked all the larger video files within my torrent client and just downloaded the low ogg file, which is only about 130mb. But it might be easier to have seperate torrent files for each video quality. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
2008/5/7 Alan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Which bizzarely contains multiple copies of the video. I am motivated to _not_ use torrent in this situation for this reason. The torrent is considerably larger than one single video. The torrent contains: 20080501-rms.ogg 20080501-rms_med.ogg 20080501-rms_low.ogg 20080501-rms.spx Most torrent clients allow you to choose which files you want. Sorry if this wasn't clear Tim -- www.tdobson.net If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 13:03 +0100, Tim Dobson wrote: The torrent contains: 20080501-rms.ogg 20080501-rms_med.ogg 20080501-rms_low.ogg 20080501-rms.spx Most torrent clients allow you to choose which files you want. Sorry if this wasn't clear Unfortunately the default one in Ubuntu Gutsy and below doesn't. Transmission, the client in Ubuntu Hardy does however. Cheers, Al. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Manchester Free Software : RMS Video
Thanks Tim On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Tim Dobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: == RMS Video: == The video of last week's Manchester Free Software, (in collaboration with the BCS and IET) talk by Richard Stallman has been released, thanks to Andrew John Hughes. You can find a torrent and http mirrors for the video on the Manchester Free Software Website. Where possible, please use the torrent. :) For more information please visit: http://manchester.fsuk.org/blog/2008/05/06/free-software-in-ethics-and-society-richard-stallman-manchester-1st-may/ Please forward this to any other lists where you think it might be of interest. = Next Meeting: = The next Manchester Free Software Meeting is on the 20th of May at Manchester Digital Development Agency. See you there! | Manchester Free Software Group | | http://manchester.fsuk.org | -- www.tdobson.net If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.org/UKTeam/
