Re: [Ubuntu Oregon] Ubuntu Hour

2012-12-14 Thread Nathan Williams

Hi Ronald,

Sorry about the seemingly abrupt responses last night, I was typing on 
my phone. Did you get this sorted out?


Regards,

Nathan

On 12/13/2012 11:05 PM, Nathan Williams wrote:

Your firewall is open for port 22, but the server is running on 

Ronald Chmara rona...@gmail.com wrote:


So, did debug verbosity (-vvv) or specifying a port (-p ) help any to
understand the problem?


On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Robin Haberman robin.haber...@gmail.comwrote:


It's in the text I am following for an Hadoop platform.

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Ronald Chmara rona...@gmail.com wrote:

Try ssh - vvv? That should give a bunch more data...

On Dec 13, 2012 6:42 PM, Robin Haberman robin.haber...@gmail.com

wrote:

I need some feedback from the group.   By the way I have gone to
the Ubuntu and Internet forums and found answers all over the place
about this problem.

One of the sub-projects I am working on is to set up a Hadoop
testbed  (single-node cluster) on Ubuntu 11.10 (just a stripped down
32 bit P5 loaded with hard drives).  I am working from a paper by
Michael G. Noll, dated August 5, 2007 (last updated: June 29, 2012) .
The part where I am having problems is to get the SSH set up by
connecting to the local machine with the hduser user.  I keep getting
the following message:

no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ ssh localhost
ssh: connect to host localhost port 22: Connection refused
no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$

I have run through a number of steps to make sure I have both the
ssh server and client loaded, reloaded – working and running.  But I
still run into the same error message.  What am I missing?

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Robin

CLI output listed below


no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo service ssh status
ssh start/running, process 24048


no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ dpkg -l | grep ssh
ii  openssh-client 1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  secure shell (SSH) client, for secure access to
remote machines
ii  openssh-server 1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  secure shell (SSH) server, for secure access from
remote machines
ii  ssh1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  secure shell client and server (metapackage)
ii  ssh-askpass-gnome  1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  interactive X program to prompt users for a
passphrase for ssh-add
ii  ssh-import-id  2.5-0ubuntu2
  securely retrieve an SSH public key and install it
locally


no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo iptables -L | grep ssh
ACCEPT tcp  --  anywhere anywheretcp dpt:ssh
ACCEPT udp  --  anywhere anywhereudp dpt:ssh
ACCEPT tcp  --  anywhere anywheretcp dpt:ssh
ACCEPT udp  --  anywhere anywhereudp dpt:ssh


no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo netstat -anp | grep sshd
tcp0  0 0.0.0.0:0.0.0.0:*
LISTEN  24048/sshd
tcp6   0  0 ::: :::*
LISTEN  24048/sshd

--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or



--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: [Ubuntu Oregon] Ubuntu Hour

2012-12-13 Thread Nathan Williams
Yep. Try ssh -p . If that doesn't work, please show the full firewall rules.

Cheers,

Nathan W

Ronald Chmara rona...@gmail.com wrote:

Port  instead of 22?
On Dec 13, 2012 6:53 PM, Ronald Chmara rona...@gmail.com wrote:

 Try ssh - vvv? That should give a bunch more data...
 On Dec 13, 2012 6:42 PM, Robin Haberman robin.haber...@gmail.com
 wrote:

I need some feedback from the group.   By the way I have gone to
 the Ubuntu and Internet forums and found answers all over the place
 about this problem.

One of the sub-projects I am working on is to set up a Hadoop
 testbed  (single-node cluster) on Ubuntu 11.10 (just a stripped down
 32 bit P5 loaded with hard drives).  I am working from a paper by
 Michael G. Noll, dated August 5, 2007 (last updated: June 29, 2012) .
 The part where I am having problems is to get the SSH set up by
 connecting to the local machine with the hduser user.  I keep getting
 the following message:

 no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ ssh localhost
 ssh: connect to host localhost port 22: Connection refused
 no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$

I have run through a number of steps to make sure I have both the
 ssh server and client loaded, reloaded – working and running.  But I
 still run into the same error message.  What am I missing?

 Any help would be appreciated.
 Thanks, Robin

 CLI output listed below


 no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo service ssh status
 ssh start/running, process 24048


 no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ dpkg -l | grep ssh
 ii  openssh-client 1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  secure shell (SSH) client, for secure access to
 remote machines
 ii  openssh-server 1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  secure shell (SSH) server, for secure access from
 remote machines
 ii  ssh1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  secure shell client and server (metapackage)
 ii  ssh-askpass-gnome  1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
  interactive X program to prompt users for a
 passphrase for ssh-add
 ii  ssh-import-id  2.5-0ubuntu2
  securely retrieve an SSH public key and install it
 locally


 no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo iptables -L | grep ssh
 ACCEPT tcp  --  anywhere anywheretcp dpt:ssh
 ACCEPT udp  --  anywhere anywhereudp dpt:ssh
 ACCEPT tcp  --  anywhere anywheretcp dpt:ssh
 ACCEPT udp  --  anywhere anywhereudp dpt:ssh


 no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo netstat -anp | grep sshd
 tcp0  0 0.0.0.0:0.0.0.0:*
 LISTEN  24048/sshd
 tcp6   0  0 ::: :::*
 LISTEN  24048/sshd

 --
 Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
 Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
 Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or



-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or
-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: [Ubuntu Oregon] Ubuntu Hour

2012-12-13 Thread Nathan Williams
Your firewall is open for port 22, but the server is running on 

Ronald Chmara rona...@gmail.com wrote:

So, did debug verbosity (-vvv) or specifying a port (-p ) help any to
understand the problem?


On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Robin Haberman 
robin.haber...@gmail.comwrote:

 It's in the text I am following for an Hadoop platform.

 On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Ronald Chmara rona...@gmail.com wrote:
  Try ssh - vvv? That should give a bunch more data...
 
  On Dec 13, 2012 6:42 PM, Robin Haberman robin.haber...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 I need some feedback from the group.   By the way I have gone to
  the Ubuntu and Internet forums and found answers all over the place
  about this problem.
 
 One of the sub-projects I am working on is to set up a Hadoop
  testbed  (single-node cluster) on Ubuntu 11.10 (just a stripped down
  32 bit P5 loaded with hard drives).  I am working from a paper by
  Michael G. Noll, dated August 5, 2007 (last updated: June 29, 2012) .
  The part where I am having problems is to get the SSH set up by
  connecting to the local machine with the hduser user.  I keep getting
  the following message:
 
  no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ ssh localhost
  ssh: connect to host localhost port 22: Connection refused
  no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$
 
 I have run through a number of steps to make sure I have both the
  ssh server and client loaded, reloaded – working and running.  But I
  still run into the same error message.  What am I missing?
 
  Any help would be appreciated.
  Thanks, Robin
 
  CLI output listed below
 
 
  no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo service ssh status
  ssh start/running, process 24048
 
 
  no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ dpkg -l | grep ssh
  ii  openssh-client 1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
   secure shell (SSH) client, for secure access to
  remote machines
  ii  openssh-server 1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
   secure shell (SSH) server, for secure access from
  remote machines
  ii  ssh1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
   secure shell client and server (metapackage)
  ii  ssh-askpass-gnome  1:5.8p1-7ubuntu1
   interactive X program to prompt users for a
  passphrase for ssh-add
  ii  ssh-import-id  2.5-0ubuntu2
   securely retrieve an SSH public key and install it
  locally
 
 
  no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo iptables -L | grep ssh
  ACCEPT tcp  --  anywhere anywheretcp dpt:ssh
  ACCEPT udp  --  anywhere anywhereudp dpt:ssh
  ACCEPT tcp  --  anywhere anywheretcp dpt:ssh
  ACCEPT udp  --  anywhere anywhereudp dpt:ssh
 
 
  no4@no4-PCV-RX550-UC:~$ sudo netstat -anp | grep sshd
  tcp0  0 0.0.0.0:0.0.0.0:*
  LISTEN  24048/sshd
  tcp6   0  0 ::: :::*
  LISTEN  24048/sshd
 
  --
  Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
  Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
  Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or
 
 
  --
  Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
  Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
  Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or
 

 --
 Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
 Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
 Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or
-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: [Ubuntu Oregon] public perceptions of Ubuntu for servers

2012-09-22 Thread Nathan Williams

On 09/22/2012 04:06 AM, Ronald Chmara wrote:

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Nathan Williams
nat...@nathanewilliams.com wrote:

I just had a job interview, and was surprised by some of the perceptions a
group of sysadmins had about Ubuntu.  (e.g. You don't use a GUI to manage
servers, right?)

Has anyone else run into this? similar weird perceptions?

With GUI tools, a lot of people fall into 3 groups:
1. Needs GUI, can't add a user without it.
2. Uses GUI, goes into command line if needed.
3. Uses the same commands that have worked for the last 40 years.

-Bop



That seems accurate. I'd group myself into category 2 for daily usage, 
but the concept of requiring GUI tools to administer a server seems odd 
to me, and the insinuation that being an Ubuntu user makes a person more 
likely to fall into that category irked me a bit. maybe my troll 
detection is just miscalibrated.


- nathan

--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: [Ubuntu Oregon] MacBook Air Ubuntu support?

2012-08-09 Thread Nathan Williams
Thanks, Scott. I look forward to reading your write-up. I'm looking at picking 
up a new laptop later this year, and am currently torn between lenovo and a 
macbook. I'm sure your writeup will come in handy to many folks looking at 
running ubuntu on the newer hardware.

- nathan

Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote:

N

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Scott Garman sgar...@zenlinux.com wrote:

 On 07/20/2012 09:10 AM, Scott Garman wrote:

 Hi all,

 I just got some budget funds from work that I need to spend this
 quarter, and I'd like to get an ultrabook. Thing is, I'm not finding any
 ultrabooks that meet my needs (13, high resolution screen, 8 GB RAM,
 comfortable keyboard) and am beginning to contemplate buying a MacBook
 Air and running Linux natively on it (i.e, wipe OS X completely from it).

 I've found this help.ubuntu.com page which suggests that 12.04 works
 well on last year's MB Air:

 https://help.ubuntu.com/**community/MacBookAir4-2https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir4-2

 However, I'm not finding any information about this year's Intel Ivy
 Bridge version of the laptop.

 Can anyone point me to reliable information or personal experience with
 this?


 As a follow-up I've successfully installed and am running 12.04 natively
 on the MBA. I've written up the process in the Apple Users subforum of
 Ubuntu Forums:

 http://ubuntuforums.org/**showthread.php?t=2039799http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2039799

 There's a fair bit to do post-install, but it pretty straightforward and
 is mostly the same as what you'd do on the 2011 MBA.

 Scott


Nice work.

-- 
*Benjamin Kerensa*
*http://benjaminkerensa.com*
*I am what I am because of who we all are - Ubuntu*

-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or
-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: [Ubuntu Oregon] MacBook Air Ubuntu support?

2012-07-20 Thread Nathan Williams
On 07/20/2012 09:10 AM, Scott Garman wrote:
 Hi all,

 I just got some budget funds from work that I need to spend this
 quarter, and I'd like to get an ultrabook. Thing is, I'm not finding
 any ultrabooks that meet my needs (13, high resolution screen, 8 GB
 RAM, comfortable keyboard) and am beginning to contemplate buying a
 MacBook Air and running Linux natively on it (i.e, wipe OS X
 completely from it).

 I've found this help.ubuntu.com page which suggests that 12.04 works
 well on last year's MB Air:

 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir4-2

 However, I'm not finding any information about this year's Intel Ivy
 Bridge version of the laptop.

 Can anyone point me to reliable information or personal experience
 with this?

 Thanks,

 Scott



Hi Scott,

The ultrabook you describe is a pretty close thing to the Dell Sputnik
[1] project (minor RAM upgrade and you're there). Though the official
offering from Dell isn't until later, you can download the customized
Ubuntu image for it now if you were to pick up one of the Dell 13 XPS
ultrabooks. They had one of these on display at OSCON, and it looked
really nice.

For more info on the MBP support, you can check out the wiki on MacBook
Pros [2], and searching on askubuntu.com. It seems that knowing the
exact version (8,1...) makes a difference. Phoronix has a review [3] of
the Ivy Bridge under Linux, which I understand to be pretty well supported.

Sadly, it doesn't look like anyone's contributed a hardware profile for
the macbook pro to Ubuntu Friendly [4] yet. :( If you end up getting
one, you should try to be the first!

hth,

Nathan W

[1] http://dell.com/sputnik
[2] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro
[3]
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=intel_corei7_3770knum=1
[4] http://friendly.ubuntu.com/

-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


[Ubuntu Oregon] Reminder: Ubuntu/Debian Bug Squashing Party this Saturday

2012-06-14 Thread Nathan Williams

Hey all,

Just wanted to send a reminder that we'll be getting together this 
Saturday for some collaborative bug squashing. Event details below:


http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-or/1789/detail/

Look forward to seeing you there!

Regards,

Nathan W


--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


[Ubuntu Oregon] Stream in Beaverton today...

2012-04-18 Thread Nathan Williams
This is the place I met my wife. caught it on preddit today.

http://imgur.com/XDDoQ

enjoy!


!DSPAM:4f8f8b4480171096841613!



-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


How Linux is Made

2012-04-03 Thread Nathan Williams

Hey everyone!

LinuxFoundation just put out a really cool video about linux and the 
collaborative open source process by which linux came about and 
continues to grow.


check it out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVpbFMhOAwE

Regards,

Nathan W

--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: Ubuntu Oregon Banner

2012-03-30 Thread Nathan Williams
woot! can't wait to see it. :) thanks again to Linbit, JVLB, bkerensa 
and anyone i forgot for making it happen!


- Nathan

On 03/30/2012 01:57 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
The Ubuntu Oregon banner is finished printing and I am headed out to 
Tigard to pick it up today!






--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: What can we improve on the LoCo Website?

2012-03-07 Thread Nathan Williams

On 03/06/2012 06:22 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
I had a look at the Ubuntu Oregon Google Analytics data for last month 
today and notice we received 8,222 unique hits last month which is 
8,222 potential Ubuntu Users or existing users who sought out 
information on Ubuntu Oregon.


In a effort to grow our ranks here in Oregon I want to do everything 
possible to make sure we are reaching as many Oregonians as possible 
through every venue available to us especially on the web. One thing I 
think needs improvement is our site could use prominent placement of 
widgets or links to our social media pages so we can grow our 
followers in those crucial areas.


I'm asking for input on any changes you might think we need to make to 
improve our chances of increasing participation statewide!


Here is a screenshot from Google Analytics:
http://i.imgur.com/Tg6A6.png

Notably we are getting visits from almost every college in the state 
and a handful of K-12 school districts and of course all the major 
tech companies.

--
Benjamin Kerensa  I am what I am because
Team Lead, Ubuntu Oregon  of who we all are. - Ubuntu
bkere...@ubuntu.com
http://ubuntu-oregon.org




Great question, Ben!

I think we need to work more on pointing people to the excellent 
existing resources and introductory materials that exist. There's a LOT 
of really good documentation that's been produced, but newcomers can 
have a hard time finding it.


this is our community, we know it very well, and part of the purpose of 
a LoCo is to be a signpost for those just realizing that we exist.


I'd suggest that we focus on the following areas:

 - introductory materials (who/what is Ubuntu, where/how can i get/use it)
 - learning more ( software exploration, community (news, activities, 
social stuff), documentation )
 - dealing with problems (where to get help, how to ask good 
questions,  how to troubleshoot)
 - contributing ( promotion (events), testing, support (irc/askubuntu), 
documentation (doc-squad, wiki, forum, tutorials), ideas (blueprints))


i'm not suggesting that we produce the documentation, there would be no 
point, as it already exists. I do think that providing an index of the 
best available resources in each of these areas would be a great way to 
attract people to Ubuntu Oregon, while providing a needed service to the 
community.


Regards,

Nathan Williams

-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or


Re: Ubuntu Global Jam - The Final Details

2012-03-03 Thread Nathan Williams

On 03/03/2012 11:38 AM, Daniel Johnson wrote:


How big of a flash drive is needed? Why isn't the event on Calagator?




FTFY: http://calagator.org/events/1250462097

re: flash drive size, i believe 2G is recommended

On Mar 2, 2012 11:40 AM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com 
mailto:bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote:


Hello All,

As Sunday approaches quickly I wanted to share the final details
for Global Jam which is:

When: Sunday, March 4th 2012 from 10:00am to 8pm PST
Where: FreeGeek, 1731 SE 10th Avenue, Portland, OR  (Look for
building with Tux Penguins)
What: We will be having a Ubuntu Global Jam with heavy emphasis on
bug work and will have a presentation by Steve Langasek and
Brian Murray who will also provide guidance on some important bug
focuses for the event.

What you need: Please make sure to bring a Laptop if you own one
and try to have either have Ubuntu 12.04 Beta 1 Installed on the
HDD or have a USB Stick LiveCD available we will have a limited
number of USB Stick's available for use during the event.

Food: This event will have some food and beverage that is provided
by other attendees as of this moment we have three people bring
food and beverage and we could use more

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtgrtpbXJZ2zdDViejB1bmtmVFRSR2tkb3lYZGp3Vnc#gid=0

Suggested items:
* Soda
* Water Bottles
* Veggie Tray
* Chips and Dip

If you have not RSVP'ed please consider doing so
http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-or/1553/detail/ this is
used for reports to the Ubuntu Community Council to show our
activity levels and also will let me forecast our last minute
needs for food and other logistics.

Note: You do not need to have any development experience to attend
although the event will be highly technical we do hope those who
lack development experience may walk away with some new abilities
and this may further their contributions to Ubuntu.



-- 
Benjamin Kerensa  I am what I am because

Team Lead, Ubuntu Oregon  of who we all are. - Ubuntu
bkere...@ubuntu.com  mailto:bkere...@ubuntu.com
http://ubuntu-oregon.org


--
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or





-- 
Ubuntu-us-or mailing list
Ubuntu-us-or@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-or