Re: [Understand] But If you did know
Not only is it hard for us as teachers to discipline ourselves to allow time for a response - but we must also teach our students (the ones waiting) how to wait respectfully. I am not real fond of calling on raised hands, so I have taught my students to "talk into the space". When no one else is speaking, they may add their thoughts. When it comes to think time, they have to learn how to honor time for thinking. We have come up with a signal - if I, or the student who is to speak use the symbol, students wait quietly. I also use "my turn cards". I have a set of index cards with each student's name on a different card. I use the card on top to call on a child to think and respond. They must respond in some way, even if it is just to restate what was last said to ensure understanding of that statement. Wait time has made a HUGE difference in my classroom, and not only in reading response. It is amazing at math time. Some of the best learning has come from what students think about the math problem, and some students need lots of time to formulate their thinking as a response that others can follow and understand. Jan We must view young people not as empty bottles to be filled, but as candles to be lit. -Robert Shaffer - Original Message - From: Ellin Keene<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: understand@literacyworkshop.org<mailto:understand@literacyworkshop.org> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Understand] But If you did know I just wanted to thank Rhonda for her comments about Chapter 3. I have found the same response from children of all ages when they are given just a bit more time to dwell in the idea. I often think about how I would respond if a teacher said (and they often did), "Answer this question, correctly, brilliantly, insightfully and FAST!" I would, in a word, choke. Yet that's what I see all the time when I visit classrooms. We adults are uncomfortable with the silence that is necessary when someone is given the necessary time to think, so we fill it in with "anyone else?" or "I'll get back to you when you think of something," and they learn quickly to respond with, "I don't know" or "I forgot." It seems so simple to give them time to think, but I've found that it takes a level of discipline that I had to work very hard to obtain. The results almost never disappoint, however. If everyone took just that one lesson from To Understand - give them the time to think and trust that they will say something insightful - I'd be a very happy author! Thanks, Rhonda and best to all the list serv readers. ellin keene ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org<mailto:Understand@literacyworkshop.org> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org<http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org> ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
Elisa Good point! :-) Thanks everyone for helping me out! I will keep you all up to date and let you know how the year progresses! Jenn Jennifer Palmer Reading Specialist, National Board Certified Teacher FLES- Lead the discovery, Live the learning, Love the adventure. "Ancora Imparo." (Translation: I am still learning.) Michelangelo at 87 years of age From: Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Mon 11/17/2008 8:12 AM To: Special Chat List for "To Understand: New Horizons in Reading Comprehension" Subject: Re: [Understand] But If you did know Jennifer, I notice this tuning out happens when I try the same modeling activity over and over again. It's "supposed to work", I think stubbornly, but it's not working this time or with this group of kids. I don't know if this has anything to do with what's going on here but a totally different approach might help. That's why Tanny McGregor's book gave me a new way to look at strategy instruction and how to make it more concrete, and even come alive for students. (Yes, I finally read it just a few weeks ago!) Sometimes, letting go and giving kids time also helps. When I am the most worried about a student she or he does or says something that makes me realize, again, that learning is happening all the time. We all need time and space to make this learning stick or reveal itself. Make sense? Elisa Elisa Waingort Grade 2 Spanish Bilingual Dalhousie Elementary Calgary, Canada Thanks, Rhonda. I know they need modeling, but they tune out when I model. I feel like the adults in the Peanuts cartoons... you know "waaah waah waaah waah!" :-) That is why I feel like I have to build that sense of urgency first. I am just one more stimulus in their overstimulated little lives! :-O Jennifer Palmer Reading Specialist, National Board Certified Teacher FLES- Lead the discovery, Live the learning, Love the adventure. "Ancora Imparo." (Translation: I am still learning.) Michelangelo at 87 years of age ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
Jennifer, I notice this tuning out happens when I try the same modeling activity over and over again. It's "supposed to work", I think stubbornly, but it's not working this time or with this group of kids. I don't know if this has anything to do with what's going on here but a totally different approach might help. That's why Tanny McGregor's book gave me a new way to look at strategy instruction and how to make it more concrete, and even come alive for students. (Yes, I finally read it just a few weeks ago!) Sometimes, letting go and giving kids time also helps. When I am the most worried about a student she or he does or says something that makes me realize, again, that learning is happening all the time. We all need time and space to make this learning stick or reveal itself. Make sense? Elisa Elisa Waingort Grade 2 Spanish Bilingual Dalhousie Elementary Calgary, Canada Thanks, Rhonda. I know they need modeling, but they tune out when I model. I feel like the adults in the Peanuts cartoons... you know "waaah waah waaah waah!" :-) That is why I feel like I have to build that sense of urgency first. I am just one more stimulus in their overstimulated little lives! :-O Jennifer Palmer Reading Specialist, National Board Certified Teacher FLES- Lead the discovery, Live the learning, Love the adventure. "Ancora Imparo." (Translation: I am still learning.) Michelangelo at 87 years of age ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
Thanks, Rhonda. I know they need modeling, but they tune out when I model. I feel like the adults in the Peanuts cartoons... you know "waaah waah waaah waah!" :-) That is why I feel like I have to build that sense of urgency first. I am just one more stimulus in their overstimulated little lives! :-O Jennifer Palmer Reading Specialist, National Board Certified Teacher FLES- Lead the discovery, Live the learning, Love the adventure. "Ancora Imparo." (Translation: I am still learning.) Michelangelo at 87 years of age From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Rhonda Brinkman Sent: Sun 11/16/2008 7:38 PM To: Special Chat List for "To Understand: New Horizons in ReadingComprehension" Subject: Re: [Understand] But If you did know >It was great to hear from Ellin! I wanted to respond to Jennifer frustrations. I have worked with "struggling readers" for most of my teaching career. The best way I found to push their thinking was to keep plugging away at the modeling. It never seemed to amaze me at what I had to model. But the actions show the students exactly what is expected and how thoughts can be developed. But you are absolutely right, when saying our society moves too fast. Kids are so busy at night it is no wonder why they are exhausted in the morning. Good luck Jennifer! I'm sure you'll bring them along! > > > > > SO...here is my plan. The first step is to work on building a sense of > urgency in order to get them engaged. I plan to spend more time on WHY > deep thinking about reading is so important, give them some more choice and control of book selection and of course more strategy work---lots and lots of modeling about how rewarding it is to put that mental energy into reading. AND I plan to get a whole lot more deliberate about helping these little ones construct for themselves the other dimensions of understanding. > > I have had difficult groups before...but this group is using up all my bag > of tricks at a very rapid rate! Thoughts anyone? > Jennifer > > > > In a message dated 11/13/2008 1:09:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > I just wanted to thank Rhonda for her comments about Chapter 3. I have > found the same response from children of all ages when they are given > just a > bit more time to dwell in the idea. I often think about how I would > respond > if a teacher said (and they often did), "Answer this question, correctly, > brilliantly, insightfully and FAST!" I would, in a word, choke. Yet > that's > what I see all the time when I visit classrooms. We adults are > uncomfortable with the silence that is necessary when someone is given > the > necessary time to think, so we fill it in with "anyone else?" or "I'll > get > back to you when you think of something," and they learn quickly to > respond > with, "I don't know" or "I forgot." > > ellin keene > > > > > > **Get movies delivered to your mailbox. One month free from > blockbuster.com > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer) > ___ > Understand mailing list > Understand@literacyworkshop.org > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by EduTech's MailScanner Vaccine2, and is > believed to be clean. > > ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
>It was great to hear from Ellin! I wanted to respond to Jennifer frustrations. I have worked with "struggling readers" for most of my teaching career. The best way I found to push their thinking was to keep plugging away at the modeling. It never seemed to amaze me at what I had to model. But the actions show the students exactly what is expected and how thoughts can be developed. But you are absolutely right, when saying our society moves too fast. Kids are so busy at night it is no wonder why they are exhausted in the morning. Good luck Jennifer! I'm sure you'll bring them along! > > > > > SO...here is my plan. The first step is to work on building a sense of > urgency in order to get them engaged. I plan to spend more time on WHY > deep thinking about reading is so important, give them some more choice and control of book selection and of course more strategy work---lots and lots of modeling about how rewarding it is to put that mental energy into reading. AND I plan to get a whole lot more deliberate about helping these little ones construct for themselves the other dimensions of understanding. > > I have had difficult groups before...but this group is using up all my bag > of tricks at a very rapid rate! Thoughts anyone? > Jennifer > > > > In a message dated 11/13/2008 1:09:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > I just wanted to thank Rhonda for her comments about Chapter 3. I have > found the same response from children of all ages when they are given > just a > bit more time to dwell in the idea. I often think about how I would > respond > if a teacher said (and they often did), "Answer this question, correctly, > brilliantly, insightfully and FAST!" I would, in a word, choke. Yet > that's > what I see all the time when I visit classrooms. We adults are > uncomfortable with the silence that is necessary when someone is given > the > necessary time to think, so we fill it in with "anyone else?" or "I'll > get > back to you when you think of something," and they learn quickly to > respond > with, "I don't know" or "I forgot." > > ellin keene > > > > > > **Get movies delivered to your mailbox. One month free from > blockbuster.com > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer) > ___ > Understand mailing list > Understand@literacyworkshop.org > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by EduTech's MailScanner Vaccine2, and is > believed to be clean. > > ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
Jennifer I am starting with the end...as in I got to the end of writing a reply and realized I hadn't really thought a lot about your post. Here in its self is a lesson. I needed time to think more about what you had said rather than just jump in with a reply to you. Even now I am now sure if I am on the right track so forgive me if I am stating the obvious to you but take this scenario. I asked the kids what jobs their parents have in reference to a study we were doing in social studies. Luckily all parents are working or I wouldn't ask the question. Every child could 'name' what their parent did but only a handful could tell me what their parents did when they went to work. Yes, mum/dad goes to work to work as a 'accountant, engineer, manager, 'terrorism expert', bankman etc but these kids couldn't tell me beyond that. So, then I started providing clues, and even that didn't help much. So, I am thinking like you, how could you not 'understand?" So, what I think you are touching on here, is just what I saw this week in another setting. It's that inability to connect the dots And because we are so busy trying to get those dots connected it becomes such a 'stuggle'. It's a problem far wider than just reading comprehension it seems. My advise, would be, to tell them what they are going to be looking for and thinking about as you read before you start, create a 'detective' scenario before the reading...the hidden clues... a little bit like I did when I was prompting the kids to try and connect the dots about their jobs. Conversation is the most powerful assessment tool in the classroomI have a wonderful wonderful transcript if you are interested with a child who I was TOLD that because of her DRA level was NOT TO READING the Warrior series. If you are interested I can send it to you.I love reading these poats...it makes me think!! --- On Fri, 14/11/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Understand] But If you did know > To: understand@literacyworkshop.org > Received: Friday, 14 November, 2008, 2:09 PM > You know, Ellin, I think some of this is a symptom of our > fast-paced > culture. Even our reading comprehension tests are > quick...time is of the essence. > > I have been experimenting with Fountas and Pinnell's > new assessment kit and > they have a great piece for assessing comprehension...the > comprehension > conversation. It is not about firing questions at kids, > but instead it is a > leisurely conversation about the book. I like this > assessment format a great deal > and think that perhaps if we did more assessment this way, > we would find that > kids understand more than we think they do. (It fits > nicely, I think with the > comprehension strategy interviews that you have > published...) Some prompts > are provided by the authors as conversation starters...and > I find that these > prompts are needed for some kids...but the prompts are high > quality. They are > covering "within the text, about the text and beyond > the text.". At the > higher levels, the prompts get into author's > craft---critical thinking. It > interested me to discover that the "I know you > don't know, but if you did know what > would you say" worked pretty well in this setting too. > I do think that the > kids really DIDN'T know...but when I waited, they went > back into the text, > and/or really thought about it and came up with something > and those "somethings" > were often brilliant. > > This year, with my third grade "intervention > group" I find myself working > with a group of struggling to average readers who have very > little understanding > at all. Most of these students are new to me...I have > never worked with > them before this year and I am now starting my sixth week > of instruction. I am a > bit frustrated. We read the first chapter of Horrible > Harry and the Green > Slime today. Everyone of these kids have good surface > structure systems in > place. (They sound wonderful...and some of their parents > can't understand why the > reading specialist is working with them. ) > > Yet I was appalled at how little they understood. This book > is pretty > simple. Sentence structures are not complex. The school > setting is familiar to > children. The kids seemed interested, at least at first, in > Horrible Harry. In > fact several of them claimed to have read lots of Horrible > Harry books. Each > chapter is a stand alone...in fact, they don't have to >
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
You know, Ellin, I think some of this is a symptom of our fast-paced culture. Even our reading comprehension tests are quick...time is of the essence. I have been experimenting with Fountas and Pinnell's new assessment kit and they have a great piece for assessing comprehension...the comprehension conversation. It is not about firing questions at kids, but instead it is a leisurely conversation about the book. I like this assessment format a great deal and think that perhaps if we did more assessment this way, we would find that kids understand more than we think they do. (It fits nicely, I think with the comprehension strategy interviews that you have published...) Some prompts are provided by the authors as conversation starters...and I find that these prompts are needed for some kids...but the prompts are high quality. They are covering "within the text, about the text and beyond the text.". At the higher levels, the prompts get into author's craft---critical thinking. It interested me to discover that the "I know you don't know, but if you did know what would you say" worked pretty well in this setting too. I do think that the kids really DIDN'T know...but when I waited, they went back into the text, and/or really thought about it and came up with something and those "somethings" were often brilliant. This year, with my third grade "intervention group" I find myself working with a group of struggling to average readers who have very little understanding at all. Most of these students are new to me...I have never worked with them before this year and I am now starting my sixth week of instruction. I am a bit frustrated. We read the first chapter of Horrible Harry and the Green Slime today. Everyone of these kids have good surface structure systems in place. (They sound wonderful...and some of their parents can't understand why the reading specialist is working with them. ) Yet I was appalled at how little they understood. This book is pretty simple. Sentence structures are not complex. The school setting is familiar to children. The kids seemed interested, at least at first, in Horrible Harry. In fact several of them claimed to have read lots of Horrible Harry books. Each chapter is a stand alone...in fact, they don't have to follow the story from chapter to chapter. Usually it is a nice transition book for kids just starting chapter books. Listening to the conversation after they read, it became very apparent that: they didn't understand that the narrator was a central character, they missed important details (like the setting for the story), had minimal understanding of story structure, they missed the humor because they didn't understand how the events in the story built upon each other. There were some word meanings that were unknown but they didn't know they didn't know the words! It seems that everything leads back to the fact that these kiddos are totally lacking in understanding of deep structure systems. AND oh yes, the other issue is reading speed (they are in a hurry to finish) combined with some attentional issues. I don't mean the hyper kind. These kids are multi-tasking in their heads! What I am finding is that in this setting, the "But if you DID know..." doesn't work as well as it does in my other classrooms because they are not mentally engaged to begin with. Maybe if I waited even longer, I would get there, but when I keep waiting, I lose ALL the kids. I have been wondering what to do. They need the deep thinking, but it has been OH so hard to set up the environment for it. SO...here is my plan. The first step is to work on building a sense of urgency in order to get them engaged. I plan to spend more time on WHY deep thinking about reading is so important, give them some more choice and control of book selection and of course more strategy work---lots and lots of modeling about how rewarding it is to put that mental energy into reading. AND I plan to get a whole lot more deliberate about helping these little ones construct for themselves the other dimensions of understanding. I have had difficult groups before...but this group is using up all my bag of tricks at a very rapid rate! Thoughts anyone? Jennifer In a message dated 11/13/2008 1:09:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just wanted to thank Rhonda for her comments about Chapter 3. I have found the same response from children of all ages when they are given just a bit more time to dwell in the idea. I often think about how I would respond if a teacher said (and they often did), "Answer this question, correctly, brilliantly, insightfully and FAST!" I would, in a word, choke. Yet that's what I see all the time when I visit classrooms. We adults are uncomfortable with the silence that is necessary when someone is given the necessary time to think, so we fi
Re: [Understand] But If you did know
I just wanted to thank Rhonda for her comments about Chapter 3. I have found the same response from children of all ages when they are given just a bit more time to dwell in the idea. I often think about how I would respond if a teacher said (and they often did), "Answer this question, correctly, brilliantly, insightfully and FAST!" I would, in a word, choke. Yet that's what I see all the time when I visit classrooms. We adults are uncomfortable with the silence that is necessary when someone is given the necessary time to think, so we fill it in with "anyone else?" or "I'll get back to you when you think of something," and they learn quickly to respond with, "I don't know" or "I forgot." It seems so simple to give them time to think, but I've found that it takes a level of discipline that I had to work very hard to obtain. The results almost never disappoint, however. If everyone took just that one lesson from To Understand - give them the time to think and trust that they will say something insightful - I'd be a very happy author! Thanks, Rhonda and best to all the list serv readers. ellin keene ___ Understand mailing list Understand@literacyworkshop.org http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org
