Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 21:13, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > How much data do you have for Volapük? More than anyone else, and we need a locale. I did not know there were two lists. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
RE: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Michael, At least I haven't seen your note on the cldr list, which probably means that you are not a subscriber of that list. Mind you, the cldr list and the cldr-users list are separate lists. This discussion would really belong to the cldr-users list, as Kent was suggesting. How much data do you have for Volapük? Regards, Erkki -Alkuperäinen viesti- Lähettäjä: unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] Puolesta Michael Everson Lähetetty: 1. tammikuuta 2012 22:51 Vastaanottaja: unicode Unicode Discussion Aihe: Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük) On 1 Jan 2012, at 20:10, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Not sure why this discussion is on the Unicode list instead of the cldr-users list... Anyhow... I posted to c...@unicode.org and had no response. > While I do find (in CLDR's collation de.xml) a > I don't find any variant doing the Austrian phonebook variant you mention. > > Maybe you could file a ticket for adding that to CLDR. (Using that > same tailoring for Volapük is a separate matter.) I don't really care about Austrian sorting. I need to sort Volapük data. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 19:46, Julian Bradfield wrote: > I thought MacOS was a real operating system underneath the glitz? So it is. Do you know how to compile system-level sorting algorithms for such a real operating system? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 20:10, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Not sure why this discussion is on the Unicode list instead of the cldr-users > list... Anyhow... I posted to c...@unicode.org and had no response. > While I do find (in CLDR's collation de.xml) a > I don't find any variant doing the Austrian phonebook variant you mention. > > Maybe you could file a ticket for adding that to CLDR. (Using that > same tailoring for Volapük is a separate matter.) I don't really care about Austrian sorting. I need to sort Volapük data. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 19:46, Julian Bradfield wrote: > On 2012-01-01, Michael Everson wrote: >> Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I >> shall have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. > > I thought MacOS was a real operating system underneath the glitz? No reason to be snarky. > So you should be able to define your own locales. How? I am not a programmer. > If you don't want to install them in the system locale directory, you may > need to mess around a bit. How? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Not sure why this discussion is on the Unicode list instead of the cldr-users list... Anyhow... While I do find (in CLDR's collation de.xml) a I don't find any variant doing the Austrian phonebook variant you mention. Maybe you could file a ticket for adding that to CLDR. (Using that same tailoring for Volapük is a separate matter.) /Kent K Den 2012-01-01 18:46, skrev "Otto Stolz" : > In Austria, a third scheme is used in telefone directories > (but not in the yellow pages): Here, Ä, Ö, and Ü, are > indeed treated as distinct letters, to go between A and B, > O and P, and U and V, respectively; and ß is treated as a > distinct pair of letters, ro go between SS and ST.
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 2012-01-01, Michael Everson wrote: > Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I shall > have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. I thought MacOS was a real operating system underneath the glitz? So you should be able to define your own locales. If you don't want to install them in the system locale directory, you may need to mess around a bit. -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Vo lapük)
Is it possible to roll your own, or would Mac OS not recognize it? --Original Message-- From: Michael Everson Sender: unicode-bou...@unicode.org To: unicode Unicode Discussion Subject: Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Vo lapük) Sent: Jan 1, 2012 11:21 On 1 Jan 2012, at 17:56, Peter Cyrus wrote: > Sounds like Michael could use the Austrian system. Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I shall have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ -- Doug Ewell • d...@ewellic.org Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Re: Sorting and Volapük
Le 01/01/12 16:27, Michael Everson a écrit : Swedish and Finnish treat ä and ö as separate letters of the alphabet, but sort them at the end after z. Volapük sorts a ä b c d e f g h i j k l m n o ö p r s t u ü v w x y z, with ä a separate letter after a, ö separate after o, and ü separate after u. There is as yet no CLDR locale for Volapük... does anyone know if any other language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ IIRC Hungarian does that for ö and ü: they’re separate letters sorted after o and u respectively. But OTOH á, é, í, ó, ő, ú and ő are sorted as a, e, i, o, ö, u and ü respectively.
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 17:56, Peter Cyrus wrote: > Sounds like Michael could use the Austrian system. Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I shall have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Sounds like Michael could use the Austrian system. On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Otto Stolz wrote: > Happy New Year, > > on Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM, > Michael Everson wrote: > Volapük sorts [...] ä a > separate letter after a, ö separate after o, >> >> and ü separate after u. >> does anyone know if any other language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? > > > Am 2012-01-01 16:54, schrieb Peter Cyrus: >> >> German does both, > > > Not really. > > According to DIN 5007, > German features two different sort orders: > • In lists of personal names, Ä, Ö, Ü may be sorted > as AE, OE, and UE, respectively; this order is > mainly used in telefone directories. > • In dictionaries and encyclopedias, Ä, Ö, Ü are sorted > as A, O, and U, respectively. > > As encyclopedias may well comprise personal names, > the scope of the former scheme is not well defined, > imho, and I stick to the latter one, whenever I have > to sort a list. > > In both schemes, ß is sorted as SS. > > In both schemes, true A (or AE, respectively) goes before Ä, > iff two sort keys are otherwise identical; likewise for > Ö, Ü, and ß. > > In Austria, a third scheme is used in telefone directories > (but not in the yellow pages): Here, Ä, Ö, and Ü, are > indeed treated as distinct letters, to go between A and B, > O and P, and U and V, respectively; and ß is treated as a > distinct pair of letters, ro go between SS and ST. > > Best wishes, > Otto Stolz > >
Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Happy New Year, on Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > Volapük sorts [...] ä a separate letter after a, ö separate after o, and ü separate after u. does anyone know if any other language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? Am 2012-01-01 16:54, schrieb Peter Cyrus: German does both, Not really. According to DIN 5007, German features two different sort orders: • In lists of personal names, Ä, Ö, Ü may be sorted as AE, OE, and UE, respectively; this order is mainly used in telefone directories. • In dictionaries and encyclopedias, Ä, Ö, Ü are sorted as A, O, and U, respectively. As encyclopedias may well comprise personal names, the scope of the former scheme is not well defined, imho, and I stick to the latter one, whenever I have to sort a list. In both schemes, ß is sorted as SS. In both schemes, true A (or AE, respectively) goes before Ä, iff two sort keys are otherwise identical; likewise for Ö, Ü, and ß. In Austria, a third scheme is used in telefone directories (but not in the yellow pages): Here, Ä, Ö, and Ü, are indeed treated as distinct letters, to go between A and B, O and P, and U and V, respectively; and ß is treated as a distinct pair of letters, ro go between SS and ST. Best wishes, Otto Stolz
Re: Sorting and Volapük
On 1 Jan 2012, at 15:54, Peter Cyrus wrote: > German does both, so there may be a CLDR locale for the choice you need. I think German interfiles a/ä, and doesn't treat a and ä as separate letters though. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and Volapük
German does both, so there may be a CLDR locale for the choice you need. On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > Swedish and Finnish treat ä and ö as separate letters of the alphabet, but > sort them at the end after z. > > Volapük sorts a ä b c d e f g h i j k l m n o ö p r s t u ü v w x y z, with ä > a separate letter after a, ö separate after o, and ü separate after u. > > There is as yet no CLDR locale for Volapük... does anyone know if any other > language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > >
Sorting and Volapük
Swedish and Finnish treat ä and ö as separate letters of the alphabet, but sort them at the end after z. Volapük sorts a ä b c d e f g h i j k l m n o ö p r s t u ü v w x y z, with ä a separate letter after a, ö separate after o, and ü separate after u. There is as yet no CLDR locale for Volapük... does anyone know if any other language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
