Re: Enclosing BANKNOTE emoji?

[Leo Broukhis]

Thank you for the links, quite mesmerizing!

On emojitracker.com (cumulative counts, but only on twitter, AFAICS),
U+1F4B5 ($) had quite a respectable count of 2932622 (well above the middle
of the page, around 70%ile), U+1F4B7 (pound) had 514536 (around 30%ile),
and U+1F4B4 and U+1F4B6 had around 353K and 388K resp. (around 20%ile, but
10x more than the lowest counts, and about the same frequency as various
individual clock faces).

It is quite evident that the dollar banknote emoji serves as a stand-in for
at least half a dozen of various currencies.

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Mark Davis ☕️  wrote:

> I would suggest that you first gather statistics and present statistics on
> how often the current combinations are used compared to other emoji, eg by
> consulting sources such as:
>
> http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/
> or
> http://emojitracker.com/
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:
>
>> There are
>>
>> 💴 U+01F4B4 Banknote With Yen Sign
>> 💵 U+01F4B5 Banknote With Dollar Sign
>> 💶 U+01F4B6 Banknote With Euro Sign
>> 💷 U+01F4B7 Banknote With Pound Sign
>>
>> This is clearly an incomplete set. It makes sense to have a generic
>> "enclosing banknote" emoji character which, when combined with a
>> currency sign, would produce the corresponding banknote, to forestall
>> requests for individual emoji for banknotes with remaining currency
>> signs.
>>
>> Leo
>>
>>
>

More Astrology Symbols

[David Faulks]

I feel pretty confident in proposing the Uranian Planet symbols, but I am now 
wondering how far I can go.

Astrological symbols are mostly used in charts. Rarely, you will also see a 
tabular listing of aspects, positions, or midpoints accompanying the chart, and 
these will have symbols. Even more rarely, astrologers will discuss or mention 
aspects using symbols instead of words. However, many astrology programs used 
to produce charts nowadays can also produce tables (in image format because of 
the symbols) automatically, so any symbol appearing in charts can potentially 
appear in tables (text). These tables can rarely be found in PDFs ( 
http://www.tonybonin.de/IQ-Jauch.PDF has a good example on page 9 and 10 ), but 
you can also find somewhat similar tables embedded inside images on the 
internet (easy to find using Google image search)

There are plenty of extra symbols I've seen in charts, but for which I 
otherwise lack text examples (except for one or two)‘in use’, as opposed to 
merely showing what they are.

Transpluto : An ‘Astrological Planet’ invented in 1972, also called ‘Isis’, 
‘Bacchus’, and so on. Has a well defined symbol. I do have one example from a 
table, but the other examples are just for showing the symbol or from charts.

Vulcan : This hypothetical intra-mercurian planet may have been disproved by 
General Relativity, but that has not stopped some astrologers from using it to 
this day. The symbol is simple enough, but I haven't foundanything to unify it 
with.

Sedna: The only trans-Neptunian object other than Pluto and Eris that has a 
symbol that astrologers commonly use. People have devised symbols for the other 
Dwarf Plants and some of the smaller TNO's, but I have not seen them in charts 
(even when I looked). The following images :
https://wegoastrology.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/sfpage.jpg
http://www.the-dreamweaver.net/portal/images/Lunar%20eclipse%202013%20apr%2025.png
have some info outside the chart proper that include the Sedna symbol.

Extra Asteroids: Astrologers have devised symbols for asteroids other than 
Ceres, Pallas, Juna, and Vesta, but the only ones I've seen in charts are 
Hygeia, Astraea, Lillith, and Sappho. The Sappho symbol is usually identical to 
U+26A2 DOUBLED FEMALE SIGN (unless you replace the circles with hearts, which 
is probably just a stylistic variation), but the others are not in Unicode.

‘Waldemath’s Moon’ aka ‘Dark Moon Lilith’: Not to be confused with Black Moon 
Lilith. This is an ‘Astrological Moon’ of Earth. There is no need for a 
separate symbol, since it looks like U+2205 EMPTY SET or U+2300 DIAMETER SIGN.

Centaurs : Small Planetoids that orbit between the orbits of Jupiter and 
Neptune. Chiron (⚷ U+26B7) is one of them, so when other such objects began to 
be discovered in the 90's, some astrologers started using them. The only ones I 
have actually come across in charts are symbols for Pholus and Nessus.

Finally, there is some confusion caused by the orbit of the Moon. Astrology 
uses virtual points calculated from this orbit ( ☊ ☋ ⚸ ). Thanks to the sun and 
the barycentre, the orbit of the moon is rather wobbly, and before the 90's, 
astrologers typically (but not always) used an approximation. With the advent 
of astrology software and downloadable NASA/JPL information, accurate virtual 
points became easy. Versions of ☊ and ☋ with ‘T’ inside them can be used to 
indicate the ‘true’ nodes. Also, there is ⚸, a reversed glyph is sometimes used 
to indicate the ‘True’ Black Moon Lilith. I have seen charts with both the 
regular (mean) and reversed (true) Liliths.

David

Re: transliteration of mjagkij znak (Cyrillic soft sign)

[Michael Everson]

On 9 Feb 2016, at 05:31, Asmus Freytag (t)  wrote:

> Without scouring the book I don't know whether there's another place in it 
> where something's unquestioningly the prime. In that case we could figure out 
> whether its appearance is simply the way that font does it. Alternatively, if 
> making double prime look different from two single primes, perhaps that's 
> common enough across fonts, and would help to lay any doubts to rest -   but 
> so far, what I see is a spacing acute.

Well, Asmus, it isn’t one. We linguists have been taught it’s the prime. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_(symbol)#Use_in_linguistics


Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

RE: transliteration of mjagkij znak (Cyrillic soft sign)

[Martin Heijdra]

And so it is, also in the library world both before and after Unicode: for 
miagkii znak the prime is prescribed. The prime is also prescribed for some 
uses for standard transliteration in Tibetan and Hebrew/Arabic/Persian/Pushto:



See:e.g. the relevant tables on https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html:

Tibetan: When two full forms of letters are stacked, as in Sanskritized 
Tibetan, there is no need to indicate the stacking. However, in the two cases 
noted here a modified letter prime should be inserted between the two 
consonants for the purpose of disambiguation.

ཏྶ་


tʹsa


ཙ་


tsa


ནྱ་


nʹya


ཉ་


nya



Hebrew: A single prime ( ʹ ) is placed between two letters representing two 
distinct consonantal sounds when the combination might otherwise be read as a 
digraph.

hisʹhid



Persian: When the affix and the word with which it is connected grammatically 
are written
separately in Persian, the two are separated in romanization by a single prime
( ʹ ).

khānahʹhā





Martin Heijdra



-Original Message-
From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Michael Everson
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 8:43 AM
To: Unicode Discussion
Subject: Re: transliteration of mjagkij znak (Cyrillic soft sign)



On 9 Feb 2016, at 05:31, Asmus Freytag (t) 
mailto:asmus-...@ix.netcom.com>> wrote:



> Without scouring the book I don't know whether there's another place in it 
> where something's unquestioningly the prime. In that case we could figure out 
> whether its appearance is simply the way that font does it. Alternatively, if 
> making double prime look different from two single primes, perhaps that's 
> common enough across fonts, and would help to lay any doubts to rest -   but 
> so far, what I see is a spacing acute.



Well, Asmus, it isn’t one. We linguists have been taught it’s the prime. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_(symbol)#Use_in_linguistics





Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Re: precomposed polytonic Greek characters with macrons and other diacritics

[James Tauber]

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Martin J. Dürst 
wrote:

> On 2016/02/09 02:10, James Tauber wrote:
>
>>
>> http://jktauber.com/2016/01/28/polytonic-greek-unicode-is-still-not-perfect/
>>
>
> Hello James,
>
> I read your article. I just wanted to point out that in your problem 3,
> the two sequences aren't normalized because if the acute accent is first,
> that would be considered as a different character, namely with the macron
> *on top of* the accent.


Thanks. I've updated the post to clarify it's not a problem with Unicode
per se.

James

Case for letters j and J with acute

[ACJ Unicode]

Hello,


This is my first time posting here, so please forgive me if I don’t get 
all the ethics right. I would like to make a case for an aspect of my 
native language (Dutch) that has always been problematic in the digital 
realm. Some context: I’m a (typo)graphic designer with a background in 
interaction design.



In the Dutch language, acute accents are used to indicate stressed 
vowels. [1] Also in the Dutch language, the digraph IJ (lowercase ij) is 
considered a separate letter and a vowel. [2] Hence, when putting 
emphasis on a word that contains ij, one would put acute accents over 
the i and the j. [3]


This is taught in writing in primary school in the Netherlands (or at 
least it was 30 years ago), but this practice is often abandoned soon 
afterwards, probably because of the technical difficulty. The only way 
to achieve this digitally appears to have LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH 
ACUTE (U+00ED) be followed by LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS J (U+0237) 
/and/ COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT (U+0301).


This poses several problems:

 * It makes casual user input highly impractical;
 * it adds complexity to automating the process of adding emphasis to
   vowels;
 * technical support is understandably lacking;
 * it makes it virtually impossible for type designers to address
   properly and consistently.


To me, the obvious solution to these problems would be to at least add 
the following characters to the Unicode standard:


 * LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH ACUTE;
 * LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J WITH ACUTE.


For completeness sake, one could also make a case for the following:

 * LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES;
 * LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES...


but since the use of the original Unicode ligatures is already 
discouraged, we could probably go without those.



Sincerely,


Alexander Dekker
deidee


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_accent#Stress
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)#Stress

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Michael Everson]

On 9 Feb 2016, at 11:18, ACJ Unicode  wrote:

> This is taught in writing in primary school in the Netherlands (or at least 
> it was 30 years ago), but this practice is often abandoned soon afterwards, 
> probably because of the technical difficulty. The only way to achieve this 
> digitally appears to have LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE (U+00ED) be 
> followed by LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS J (U+0237) and COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT 
> (U+0301).

It is a font rendering issue. A pre-composed j́ will not be added to the 
standard. 

>   • It makes casual user input highly impractical;

This is dependent on the keyboard layout, not the encoding. 

>   • it adds complexity to automating the process of adding emphasis to 
> vowels;
>   • technical support is understandably lacking;

True, but for technical reasons pre-composed characters will NOT be added to 
the standard. 

>   • LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH ACUTE;
>   • LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J WITH ACUTE.

This just won’t ever happen.

>   • it makes it virtually impossible for type designers to address 
> properly and consistently.

Well, the specification should be í (or i + combining acute) + j + combining 
acute. Neither dotless i nor dotless j would be correct. 

> For completeness sake, one could also make a case for the following:
> 
>   • LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES;
>   • LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES.

Or IJ (or ij) + combining double acute.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Markus Scherer]

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Michael Everson 
wrote:

> On 9 Feb 2016, at 11:18, ACJ Unicode  wrote:
>
> > This is taught in writing in primary school in the Netherlands (or at
> least it was 30 years ago), but this practice is often abandoned soon
> afterwards, probably because of the technical difficulty. The only way to
> achieve this digitally appears to have LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE
> (U+00ED) be followed by LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS J (U+0237) and COMBINING
> ACUTE ACCENT (U+0301).
>
> It is a font rendering issue. A pre-composed j́ will not be added to the
> standard.
>

The regular 'j' has the Soft_Dotted property, which means that when you add
a diacritic-above, the dot should go away.
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr44/#Soft_Dotted
When the dot does not disappear, please submit an error report for the
platform/browser you are using.

>   • it adds complexity to automating the process of adding emphasis
> to vowels;
> >   • technical support is understandably lacking;
>
> True, but for technical reasons pre-composed characters will NOT be added
> to the standard.
>
> >   • LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH ACUTE;
> >   • LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J WITH ACUTE.
>
> This just won’t ever happen.
>

Technical reasons include
http://unicode.org/policies/stability_policy.html#Normalization

markus

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Frédéric Grosshans]

Le 09/02/2016 12:18, ACJ Unicode a écrit :

[...]
To me, the obvious solution to these problems would be to at least add 
the following characters to the Unicode standard:


  * LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH ACUTE;
  * LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J WITH ACUTE.

[...]
Adding new composition of existing characters in Unicode is not done 
anymore since the introduction of NFC and NFD in the 1990’s . You should 
read http://www.unicode.org/faq/char_combmark.html#11 and following.


Cheers,

Frédéric

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Frédéric Grosshans]

Le 09/02/2016 16:58, Michael Everson a écrit :

For completeness sake, one could also make a case for the following:
>
>• LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES;
>• LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES.

Or IJ (or ij) + combining double acute.
The rendering of these in a standard font (IJ̋ij̋) is usually quite bad. 
While non ligated character should render correctly (ÍJ́íj́).


Frédéric

Re: Enclosing BANKNOTE emoji?

[Leo Broukhis]

A caveat about using emojitracker.com : it doesn't count newer emoji yet
(e.g. U+1F37E bottle with popping cork is absent), thus, when they are
added, their counts will be skewed.

Leo

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:

> Thank you for the links, quite mesmerizing!
>
> On emojitracker.com (cumulative counts, but only on twitter, AFAICS),
> U+1F4B5 ($) had quite a respectable count of 2932622 (well above the middle
> of the page, around 70%ile), U+1F4B7 (pound) had 514536 (around 30%ile),
> and U+1F4B4 and U+1F4B6 had around 353K and 388K resp. (around 20%ile, but
> 10x more than the lowest counts, and about the same frequency as various
> individual clock faces).
>
> It is quite evident that the dollar banknote emoji serves as a stand-in
> for at least half a dozen of various currencies.
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Mark Davis ☕️  wrote:
>
>> I would suggest that you first gather statistics and present statistics
>> on how often the current combinations are used compared to other emoji, eg
>> by consulting sources such as:
>>
>> http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/
>> or
>> http://emojitracker.com/
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:
>>
>>> There are
>>>
>>> 💴 U+01F4B4 Banknote With Yen Sign
>>> 💵 U+01F4B5 Banknote With Dollar Sign
>>> 💶 U+01F4B6 Banknote With Euro Sign
>>> 💷 U+01F4B7 Banknote With Pound Sign
>>>
>>> This is clearly an incomplete set. It makes sense to have a generic
>>> "enclosing banknote" emoji character which, when combined with a
>>> currency sign, would produce the corresponding banknote, to forestall
>>> requests for individual emoji for banknotes with remaining currency
>>> signs.
>>>
>>> Leo
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Enclosing BANKNOTE emoji?

[Mark Davis ☕️]

Look at http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/. The stats are different, since
they collect data from keyboards not twitter posts, but they have a nice
button to view only the news emoji.

(The numbers on the new ones will be smaller, just because it takes time
for systems to support them, and people to start using them. However, they
bear out my predication that the most popular would be the eyes-rolling
face).

Mark

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:

> A caveat about using emojitracker.com : it doesn't count newer emoji yet
> (e.g. U+1F37E bottle with popping cork is absent), thus, when they are
> added, their counts will be skewed.
>
> Leo
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the links, quite mesmerizing!
>>
>> On emojitracker.com (cumulative counts, but only on twitter, AFAICS),
>> U+1F4B5 ($) had quite a respectable count of 2932622 (well above the middle
>> of the page, around 70%ile), U+1F4B7 (pound) had 514536 (around 30%ile),
>> and U+1F4B4 and U+1F4B6 had around 353K and 388K resp. (around 20%ile, but
>> 10x more than the lowest counts, and about the same frequency as various
>> individual clock faces).
>>
>> It is quite evident that the dollar banknote emoji serves as a stand-in
>> for at least half a dozen of various currencies.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Mark Davis ☕️ 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would suggest that you first gather statistics and present statistics
>>> on how often the current combinations are used compared to other emoji, eg
>>> by consulting sources such as:
>>>
>>> http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/
>>> or
>>> http://emojitracker.com/
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:
>>>
 There are

 💴 U+01F4B4 Banknote With Yen Sign
 💵 U+01F4B5 Banknote With Dollar Sign
 💶 U+01F4B6 Banknote With Euro Sign
 💷 U+01F4B7 Banknote With Pound Sign

 This is clearly an incomplete set. It makes sense to have a generic
 "enclosing banknote" emoji character which, when combined with a
 currency sign, would produce the corresponding banknote, to forestall
 requests for individual emoji for banknotes with remaining currency
 signs.

 Leo


>>>
>>
>

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Markus Scherer]

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 3:18 AM, ACJ Unicode  wrote:

> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)#Stress
>

This says "in Unicode  it is
possible to combine characters
into a *j* with an acute
accent – "bíȷ́na" – though this might not be supported or rendered
correctly by some fonts  or
systems. This *ȷ́* is the result of the combination of the dotless *ȷ* (U+0237)
and the combining acute accent  ́ (U+0301)."

which I am pretty sure is wrong. It should read "in Unicode
 it is possible to combine characters
into a *j* with an acute
accent – "bíj́na" – though this might not be supported or rendered
correctly by some fonts  or
systems. This *j́* is the result of the combination of the regular *j* and
the combining acute accent  ́ (U+0301)."

Could someone with Wikipedia edit experience please fix this? (3 edits in
the sentence)

markus

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Philippe Verdy]

2016-02-09 17:16 GMT+01:00 Frédéric Grosshans 
:

> Le 09/02/2016 16:58, Michael Everson a écrit :
>
>> For completeness sake, one could also make a case for the following:
>>> >
>>> >   • LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES;
>>> >   • LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES.
>>>
>> Or IJ (or ij) + combining double acute.
>>
> The rendering of these in a standard font (IJ̋ij̋) is usually quite bad.
> While non ligated character should render correctly (ÍJ́íj́).


This is only a font problem, not an Unicode problem. For me the IJ (or ij)
with combining double accent is correct.
Tell this to font authors so they fix their common fonts in later versions
(here Microsoft, Adobe, Apple and Google, possibly others, should be
hearing your issue for popular OS'es and applications).

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Philippe Verdy]

Fixed it in Wikipedia (I used "canonically equivalent" and linked it to the
relevant article, instead of the imprecise expression "the result of").

2016-02-09 20:29 GMT+01:00 Markus Scherer :

> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 3:18 AM, ACJ Unicode  wrote:
>
>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)#Stress
>>
>
> This says "in Unicode  it is
> possible to combine characters
> into a *j* with an
> acute accent – "bíȷ́na" – though this might not be supported or rendered
> correctly by some fonts  or
> systems. This *ȷ́* is the result of the combination of the dotless *ȷ* 
> (U+0237)
> and the combining acute accent  ́ (U+0301)."
>
> which I am pretty sure is wrong. It should read "in Unicode
>  it is possible to combine
> characters into a *j* with
> an acute accent – "bíj́na" – though this might not be supported or
> rendered correctly by some fonts
>  or systems. This *j́* is
> the result of the combination of the regular *j* and the combining acute
> accent  ́ (U+0301)."
>
> Could someone with Wikipedia edit experience please fix this? (3 edits in
> the sentence)
>
> markus
>

RE: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Martin Heijdra]

Actually, current use (e.g. the Brill font made by John Hudson) says:

[cid:image001.png@01D16351.1F1BC730]

The double acute is for languages such as Hungarian etc. \

Martin Heijdra

From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Philippe Verdy
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 2:38 PM
To: Frédéric Grosshans
Cc: unicode Unicode Discussion
Subject: Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

2016-02-09 17:16 GMT+01:00 Frédéric Grosshans 
mailto:frederic.grossh...@gmail.com>>:
Le 09/02/2016 16:58, Michael Everson a écrit :
For completeness sake, one could also make a case for the following:
>
>   • LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES;
>   • LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES.
Or IJ (or ij) + combining double acute.
The rendering of these in a standard font (IJ̋ij̋) is usually quite bad. While 
non ligated character should render correctly (ÍJ́íj́).

This is only a font problem, not an Unicode problem. For me the IJ (or ij) with 
combining double accent is correct.
Tell this to font authors so they fix their common fonts in later versions 
(here Microsoft, Adobe, Apple and Google, possibly others, should be hearing 
your issue for popular OS'es and applications).

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[David Faulks]

>On Tue, 2/9/16, Philippe Verdy  wrote:



> This is only a font problem, not an Unicode problem. For
> me the IJ (or ij) with combining double accent is correct.
> Tell this to font authors so they fix their common fonts in
> later versions (here Microsoft, Adobe, Apple and Google,
> possibly others, should be hearing your issue for popular
> OS'es and applications).

Perhaps Unicode could create a ‘default position’ property for combining 
characters, and encourage OpenType and other font engines to adopt it for 
automatic use when no other font information is provided. Adoption would take a 
while, but I cannot help but think that otherwise, this issue will never go 
away.

David

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Leo Broukhis]

It isn't just a font rendering issue. U+0133 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ
doesn't have Soft_Dotted property according to
http://www.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/PropList.txt



On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Michael Everson  wrote:
> On 9 Feb 2016, at 11:18, ACJ Unicode  wrote:
>
>> This is taught in writing in primary school in the Netherlands (or at least 
>> it was 30 years ago), but this practice is often abandoned soon afterwards, 
>> probably because of the technical difficulty. The only way to achieve this 
>> digitally appears to have LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE (U+00ED) be 
>> followed by LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS J (U+0237) and COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT 
>> (U+0301).
>
> It is a font rendering issue. A pre-composed j́ will not be added to the 
> standard.
>
>>   • It makes casual user input highly impractical;
>
> This is dependent on the keyboard layout, not the encoding.
>
>>   • it adds complexity to automating the process of adding emphasis to 
>> vowels;
>>   • technical support is understandably lacking;
>
> True, but for technical reasons pre-composed characters will NOT be added to 
> the standard.
>
>>   • LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH ACUTE;
>>   • LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J WITH ACUTE.
>
> This just won’t ever happen.
>
>>   • it makes it virtually impossible for type designers to address 
>> properly and consistently.
>
> Well, the specification should be í (or i + combining acute) + j + combining 
> acute. Neither dotless i nor dotless j would be correct.
>
>> For completeness sake, one could also make a case for the following:
>>
>>   • LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES;
>>   • LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ WITH ACUTES.
>
> Or IJ (or ij) + combining double acute.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Kent Karlsson]

Den 2016-02-09 16:58, skrev "Michael Everson" :

> Well, the specification should be í (or i + combining acute) + j +
> combining acute. Neither dotless i nor dotless j would be correct.

While true, using the latter (the dotless ones) tend to render better
than the dotted ones. (I.e., the Soft_dotted property is still not
well supported.)

> Or IJ (or ij) + combining double acute.

While I agree that that maybe SHOULD be fine, the ij character has not
been given the Soft_dotted property. Although, as a different matter,
using the ij character tends to make automatic case mapping work better
for the ij in Dutch...

/Kent K

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Ken Whistler]

On 2/9/2016 1:23 PM, David Faulks wrote:

Perhaps Unicode could create a ‘default position’ property for combining 
characters, and encourage OpenType and other font engines to adopt it for 
automatic use when no other font information is provided. Adoption would take a 
while, but I cannot help but think that otherwise, this issue will never go 
away.




It does. General_Category=Mn and ccc=230 indicates that a character is
a non-spacing mark positioned *above* its base.

Attempting to get more precise that that with a *character* property would
be a mistake. Such interaction in detail between a mark and its base is
an attribute of glyphs and their design, and properly belongs to the realm
of rendering and fonts.

--Ken

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Asmus Freytag (t)]

  
  
On 2/9/2016 1:36 PM, Ken Whistler
  wrote:


  
  
  On 2/9/2016 1:23 PM, David Faulks wrote:
  
  Perhaps Unicode could create a ‘default
position’ property for combining characters, and encourage
OpenType and other font engines to adopt it for automatic use
when no other font information is provided. Adoption would take
a while, but I cannot help but think that otherwise, this issue
will never go away.



  
  
  It does. General_Category=Mn and ccc=230 indicates that a
  character is
  
  a non-spacing mark positioned *above* its base.
  
  
  Attempting to get more precise that that with a *character*
  property would
  
  be a mistake. Such interaction in detail between a mark and its
  base is
  
  an attribute of glyphs and their design, and properly belongs to
  the realm
  
  of rendering and fonts.
  


What about GC=Mn and ccc=0?

For those, an actual positional property would make sense.

It wouldn't need to be overly specific.

For example, for Unibook, I allow a convention to supply this
information to place a glyph in relation to the dotted circle; it's
described in the help file. There are some special wrinkles there,
because the values are tweaks that get applied to known fonts (that
just happen to not do the right thing when combined with an the
standard dotted circle in the charts).

However, this approach would seem to indicate that such a scheme is
possible and with just a few values sufficiently differentiated to
be of practical use (= immensely improve on the fallback).

A./

  
  --Ken
  
  
  


  

Re: Enclosing BANKNOTE emoji?

[Leo Broukhis]

The emojiexpress.com site is useful to check which new emoji or
combinations people actually use, but the stats are likely skewed by only
measuring input from one platform.

Another way to look at the emojitracker.com stats:

339M people in the Eurozone : 389K uses of Euro emoji
126M people in Japan : 354K uses of Yen emoji
140M people in UK + Turkey (likely users of the Pound emoji as a stand-in
for Lira) : 515K uses of pound emoji

The total is 605M people : 1258K uses of non-dollar emoji
Assuming the same average frequency of use, 2933K uses of the dollar emoji
would be produced by 1411M people, out of which us + canada + mexico +
australia   (500M) + other countries using $ as (part of) the sign for
their currency are way less than a half. This means that substantially more
than 500M people are using the dollar emoji by default, instead of emoji of
their national currencies. Assuming a lesser frequency of use will result
in a greater estimate of the affected population.

Leo


On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Mark Davis ☕️  wrote:

> Look at http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/. The stats are different, since
> they collect data from keyboards not twitter posts, but they have a nice
> button to view only the news emoji.
>
> (The numbers on the new ones will be smaller, just because it takes time
> for systems to support them, and people to start using them. However, they
> bear out my predication that the most popular would be the eyes-rolling
> face).
>
> Mark
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:
>
>> A caveat about using emojitracker.com : it doesn't count newer emoji yet
>> (e.g. U+1F37E bottle with popping cork is absent), thus, when they are
>> added, their counts will be skewed.
>>
>> Leo
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for the links, quite mesmerizing!
>>>
>>> On emojitracker.com (cumulative counts, but only on twitter, AFAICS),
>>> U+1F4B5 ($) had quite a respectable count of 2932622 (well above the middle
>>> of the page, around 70%ile), U+1F4B7 (pound) had 514536 (around 30%ile),
>>> and U+1F4B4 and U+1F4B6 had around 353K and 388K resp. (around 20%ile, but
>>> 10x more than the lowest counts, and about the same frequency as various
>>> individual clock faces).
>>>
>>> It is quite evident that the dollar banknote emoji serves as a stand-in
>>> for at least half a dozen of various currencies.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Mark Davis ☕️ 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I would suggest that you first gather statistics and present statistics
 on how often the current combinations are used compared to other emoji, eg
 by consulting sources such as:

 http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/
 or
 http://emojitracker.com/

 Mark

 On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Leo Broukhis  wrote:

> There are
>
> 💴 U+01F4B4 Banknote With Yen Sign
> 💵 U+01F4B5 Banknote With Dollar Sign
> 💶 U+01F4B6 Banknote With Euro Sign
> 💷 U+01F4B7 Banknote With Pound Sign
>
> This is clearly an incomplete set. It makes sense to have a generic
> "enclosing banknote" emoji character which, when combined with a
> currency sign, would produce the corresponding banknote, to forestall
> requests for individual emoji for banknotes with remaining currency
> signs.
>
> Leo
>
>

>>>
>>
>

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Ken Whistler]

Asmus,

On 2/9/2016 2:19 PM, Asmus Freytag (t) wrote:

On 2/9/2016 1:36 PM, Ken Whistler wrote:



On 2/9/2016 1:23 PM, David Faulks wrote:
Perhaps Unicode could create a ‘default position’ property for 
combining characters, and encourage OpenType and other font engines 
to adopt it for automatic use when no other font information is 
provided. Adoption would take a while, but I cannot help but think 
that otherwise, this issue will never go away.





It does. General_Category=Mn and ccc=230 indicates that a character is
a non-spacing mark positioned *above* its base.

Attempting to get more precise that that with a *character* property 
would

be a mistake. Such interaction in detail between a mark and its base is
an attribute of glyphs and their design, and properly belongs to the 
realm

of rendering and fonts.


What about GC=Mn and ccc=0?


The *overwhelming* majority of those are for Indic scripts.



For those, an actual positional property would make sense.


And, ta da!, we have one:

http://www.unicode.org/Public/8.0.0/ucd/IndicPositionalCategory.txt

That also encompasses the positional classes for gc=Mc, as well as gc=Mn.



It wouldn't need to be overly specific.


It isn't -- it is designed (and being used) for Indic rendering engines.

The outliers which are gc=Mn and ccc=0 but which are not covered
by IndicPositionalCategory.txt include:

CGJ and variation selectors and one shorthand control: irrelevant, because
these aren't displayable marks.

Thaana vowels

Miao tone marks: irrelevant, because Miao has a very idiosyncratic encoding.

Signwriting marks: Irrelevant, because Signwriting has a very idiosyncratic
encoding.

And I don't think adding a new positional property just to keep track of
the fact that two Thaana vowels display below their consonant instead of
on top makes sense. If it came to that, Thaana could just be added to
IndicPositionalCategory.txt, instead.



For example, for Unibook, I allow a convention to supply this 
information to place a glyph in relation to the dotted circle; it's 
described in the help file. There are some special wrinkles there, 
because the values are tweaks that get applied to known fonts (that 
just happen to not do the right thing when combined with an the 
standard dotted circle in the charts).


Just adapt IndicPositionalCategory.txt for Unibook, and you've got what 
you need.


--Ken



However, this approach would seem to indicate that such a scheme is 
possible and with just a few values sufficiently differentiated to be 
of practical use (= immensely improve on the fallback).


A./

Re: Case for letters j and J with acute

[Asmus Freytag (t)]

On 2/9/2016 3:01 PM, Ken Whistler wrote:
Just adapt IndicPositionalCategory.txt for Unibook, and you've got 
what you need.


I see. Not quite as simple; Unibook needs overrides that are 
specifically able to correct bad fonts, not just "dumb" ones.  We may 
want to honor some part of the positioning. But it would be interesting 
to see whether we ended up duplicating the IPC values more or less. Next 
chance I get.


A./

RE: Enclosing BANKNOTE emoji?

[Peter Constable]

I wish emojitracker had an option to see cumulative stats spanning only the 
last (say) 7 days, rather than (I assume) all time. This would be more 
representative of current usage, fixing the problem of recent introductions. 
Also, comparing the recent and long-term stats would highlight shifting trends.


Peter

From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Leo Broukhis
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2016 2:47 PM
To: Mark Davis ☕️ 
Cc: unicode Unicode Discussion 
Subject: Re: Enclosing BANKNOTE emoji?

The emojiexpress.com site is useful to check which new 
emoji or combinations people actually use, but the stats are likely skewed by 
only measuring input from one platform.
Another way to look at the emojitracker.com stats:
339M people in the Eurozone : 389K uses of Euro emoji
126M people in Japan : 354K uses of Yen emoji
140M people in UK + Turkey (likely users of the Pound emoji as a stand-in for 
Lira) : 515K uses of pound emoji
The total is 605M people : 1258K uses of non-dollar emoji
Assuming the same average frequency of use, 2933K uses of the dollar emoji 
would be produced by 1411M people, out of which us + canada + mexico + 
australia   (500M) + other countries using $ as (part of) the sign for their 
currency are way less than a half. This means that substantially more than 500M 
people are using the dollar emoji by default, instead of emoji of their 
national currencies. Assuming a lesser frequency of use will result in a 
greater estimate of the affected population.
Leo


On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Mark Davis ☕️ 
mailto:m...@macchiato.com>> wrote:
Look at http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/. The stats are different, since they 
collect data from keyboards not twitter posts, but they have a nice button to 
view only the news emoji.

(The numbers on the new ones will be smaller, just because it takes time for 
systems to support them, and people to start using them. However, they bear out 
my predication that the most popular would be the eyes-rolling face).

Mark

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Leo Broukhis 
mailto:l...@mailcom.com>> wrote:
A caveat about using emojitracker.com : it doesn't 
count newer emoji yet (e.g. U+1F37E bottle with popping cork is absent), thus, 
when they are added, their counts will be skewed.
Leo

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Leo Broukhis 
mailto:l...@mailcom.com>> wrote:
Thank you for the links, quite mesmerizing!

On emojitracker.com (cumulative counts, but only on 
twitter, AFAICS), U+1F4B5 ($) had quite a respectable count of 2932622 (well 
above the middle of the page, around 70%ile), U+1F4B7 (pound) had 514536 
(around 30%ile), and U+1F4B4 and U+1F4B6 had around 353K and 388K resp. (around 
20%ile, but 10x more than the lowest counts, and about the same frequency as 
various individual clock faces).
It is quite evident that the dollar banknote emoji serves as a stand-in for at 
least half a dozen of various currencies.
[https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif]

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Mark Davis ☕️ 
mailto:m...@macchiato.com>> wrote:
I would suggest that you first gather statistics and present statistics on how 
often the current combinations are used compared to other emoji, eg by 
consulting sources such as:

http://www.emojixpress.com/stats/
or
http://emojitracker.com/

Mark

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Leo Broukhis 
mailto:l...@mailcom.com>> wrote:
There are

💴 U+01F4B4 Banknote With Yen Sign
💵 U+01F4B5 Banknote With Dollar Sign
💶 U+01F4B6 Banknote With Euro Sign
💷 U+01F4B7 Banknote With Pound Sign

This is clearly an incomplete set. It makes sense to have a generic
"enclosing banknote" emoji character which, when combined with a
currency sign, would produce the corresponding banknote, to forestall
requests for individual emoji for banknotes with remaining currency
signs.

Leo