Re: Aw: Commercial minus as italic variant of division sign in German and Scandinavian context
"Jörg Knappen", Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:26:10 +0100 (CET):
> The most important word in the comment on 00F7 ÷ DIVISION SIGN is
> "occasionally".
>
> In fact, the occasions are such rare that you can live a whole life
> in germany without encountering one of them.
>
> On the other hand, 00F7 ÷ DIVISION SIGN is used _frequently_ in
> german schoolbooks to denote ...
> division (books aimed at professionals doing math prefer : (COLON) or
> / (SLASH) for this purpose, but schoolbooks don't).
This sounds like Norway ...
> 2052 ⁒ commercial minus sign _always_ means subtraction and it has
> this shape (or the alternate shape ./.)
> in all contexts, roman or italic. It is not the italic version of
> some other symbol.
So, I can only once more emphasize that when I said ”italics” I meant
it the way Unicode already have many characters (primarily mathematical
ones) which are distinguished, in name, only by a reference to the
style of the letter. Hope this helps.
As for the clarity of 2052 ⁒ commercial minus sign, no, you are wrong.
While it is clear to you, in Germany, perhaps, at least in some
Scandinavian school contexts, it has a different meaning, namely as a
“well done” sign, from the teacher.
As for the Norwegian context, I guess we can say that the use of ÷
DIVISION SIGN as minus sing is more on the down than on the up. But it
has its contexts (and just last week, I received an ad for glasses were
it was used), and no one thinks about it. It is not an issue. When we
get the taxation form on paper or in PDF form, the division minus is
there, and everyone understands it correctly. (Knock on woods - *some*
probably stumbles.) They don’t every realize what they see - it is
knowledge that is unaccounted for. (For instance, until I took this up,
Wikipedia made no mention of it. Hah! Even Unicode 6.3 talks about the
”commercial minus sign” in _Scandinavian_ taxation forms, without (is
my claim) understanding that it talks about DIVISION SIGN. See my reply
to Asmus.)
So what I don’t want is that the ”untraditional” uses of ÷ DIVISION
SIGN are left in the dark as some strange traditions without any roots.
Also, I don't want the commercial minus to live a life as if it is such
a unique thing. Let us document things properly.
Leif Halvard Silli
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2014 um 04:43 Uhr
> Von: "Leif Halvard Silli"
> An: unicode@unicode.org
> Betreff: Commercial minus as italic variant of division sign in
> German and Scandinavian context
> Thanks to our discussion in July 2012,[1] the Unicode code charts now
> says, about 00F7 ÷ DIVISION SIGN, this:
>
> “• occasionally used as an alternate, more visually
> distinct version of 2212 − {MINUS SIGN} or 2011 ‑
> {NON-BREAKING HYPHEN} in some contexts
> [… snip …]
> → 2052 ⁒ commercial minus sign”
>
> However, I think it can also be added somewhere that commercial minus
> is just the italic variant of ”division minus”. I’ll hereby argue for
> this based on an old German book on ”commercial arithmetics” I have
> come accross, plus what the the July 2012 discussion and what Unicode
> already says about the commercial sign:
>
> FIRST: IDENTICAL CONTEXTS.
>
> German language is an important locale for the Commercial Minus. In
> German, the Commercial minus is both referred to as ”kaufmännische
> Minus(zeichen)” and as "buchhalterische Minus" (”Commercial Minus
> Character” and ”Bookkeeper Minus”). And, speaking of ”division minus”
> in the context I know best, Norway, we find it in advertising
> (commercial context) and in book keeping documentation and taxation
> forms. Simply put, what the Unicode 6.2 ”General Punctuation” section
> says about Commercial Minus, can also be said about DIVISION SIGN used
> as minus: «U+2052 % commercial minus sign is used in commercial or tax
> related forms or publications in several European countries, including
> Germany and Scandinavia.» So, basically and for the most part, the
> commercial minus and the ”division sign minus” occur in the very same
> contexts, with very much the same meaning. This is a strong hint that
> they are the same character.
>
> SECOND: GERMAN USE OF DIVISION SIGN FOR MINUS IN COMMERCIAL CONTEXT.
>
> Is there any proof that German used both an italics variant and a
> non-italics variant of the “division minus”? Seemingly yes. The book
> “Kaufmännische Arithmetik” (“Commercial arithmetics”) from 1825 by
> Johann Philipp Schellenberg. By reading section 118 «Anhang zur
> Addition und Subtraction der Brüche» [”Appendix about the addition and
> subtraction of fractions”]) at page 213 and onwards,[2] we can conclude
> that he describes as “commercial” use of the ÷ ”division minus”, where
> the ÷ signifies a _negative remainder_ of a division (while the plus
> sign is used to signify a positive remainder). Or to quote, from page
> 214: «so wird das Fehlende durch das [Zei]chen ÷ (minus) bemerkt, und
> bei Berechn[nung der Preis der Waare abgezogen» [”then the lacking
Aw: Commercial minus as italic variant of division sign in German and Scandinavian context
The most important word in the comment on 00F7 ÷ DIVISION SIGN is "occasionally".
In fact, the occasions are such rare that you can live a whole life in germany
without encountering one of them.
On the other hand, 00F7 ÷ DIVISION SIGN is used _frequently_ in german schoolbooks to denote ...
division (books aimed at professionals doing math prefer : (COLON) or / (SLASH) for this
purpose, but schoolbooks don't).
2052 ⁒ commercial minus sign _always_ means subtraction and it has this shape (or the alternate shape ./.)
in all contexts, roman or italic. It is not the italic version of some other symbol.
Hope this helps,
Jörg Knappen
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2014 um 04:43 Uhr
Von: "Leif Halvard Silli"
An: unicode@unicode.org
Betreff: Commercial minus as italic variant of division sign in German and Scandinavian context
Thanks to our discussion in July 2012,[1] the Unicode code charts now
says, about 00F7 ÷ DIVISION SIGN, this:
“• occasionally used as an alternate, more visually
distinct version of 2212 − {MINUS SIGN} or 2011 ‑
{NON-BREAKING HYPHEN} in some contexts
[… snip …]
→ 2052 ⁒ commercial minus sign”
However, I think it can also be added somewhere that commercial minus
is just the italic variant of ”division minus”. I’ll hereby argue for
this based on an old German book on ”commercial arithmetics” I have
come accross, plus what the the July 2012 discussion and what Unicode
already says about the commercial sign:
FIRST: IDENTICAL CONTEXTS.
German language is an important locale for the Commercial Minus. In
German, the Commercial minus is both referred to as ”kaufmännische
Minus(zeichen)” and as "buchhalterische Minus" (”Commercial Minus
Character” and ”Bookkeeper Minus”). And, speaking of ”division minus”
in the context I know best, Norway, we find it in advertising
(commercial context) and in book keeping documentation and taxation
forms. Simply put, what the Unicode 6.2 ”General Punctuation” section
says about Commercial Minus, can also be said about DIVISION SIGN used
as minus: «U+2052 % commercial minus sign is used in commercial or tax
related forms or publications in several European countries, including
Germany and Scandinavia.» So, basically and for the most part, the
commercial minus and the ”division sign minus” occur in the very same
contexts, with very much the same meaning. This is a strong hint that
they are the same character.
SECOND: GERMAN USE OF DIVISION SIGN FOR MINUS IN COMMERCIAL CONTEXT.
Is there any proof that German used both an italics variant and a
non-italics variant of the “division minus”? Seemingly yes. The book
“Kaufmännische Arithmetik” (“Commercial arithmetics”) from 1825 by
Johann Philipp Schellenberg. By reading section 118 «Anhang zur
Addition und Subtraction der Brüche» [”Appendix about the addition and
subtraction of fractions”]) at page 213 and onwards,[2] we can conclude
that he describes as “commercial” use of the ÷ ”division minus”, where
the ÷ signifies a _negative remainder_ of a division (while the plus
sign is used to signify a positive remainder). Or to quote, from page
214: «so wird das Fehlende durch das [Zei]chen ÷ (minus) bemerkt, und
bei Berechn[nung der Preis der Waare abgezogen» [”then the lacking
remainder is marked with the ÷ (minus) and withdrawn when the price of
the commodity is calculated”]. {Note that some bits of the text are
lacking, I marked my guessed in square brackets.} I did not find (yet)
that he used the italic commercial minus, however, the context is
correct. (My guess is that the italics variant has been put to more
use, in the computer age, partly to separate it from the DIVISION SIGN
or may be simply because people started to see it often in handwriting
but seldom in print. And so would not have recognized it in the form of
the non-italic division sign.)
THIRD: IDENTICAL INTERPRETATION
The word “abgezogen” in the above quote is interesting since the Code
Charts for 2052 ⁒ COMMERCIAL MINUS cites the related German word
“abzüglich”. And from the Swedish context, the charts quotes the
_expression_ “med avdrag”. English translation might be ”to be withdrawn”
or ”with subtraction/rebate [for]”. Simply put, we here see the
commercial meaning.
WHAT ABOUT COMMERCIAL MINUS AS “CORRECT” SIGN IN SCANDINAVIAN SCHOOLS?
UNICODE 6.3 notes that in some European (e.g. Finnish, Swedish and
perhaps Norwegian) traditions, teachers use the Commercial Minus Sign
to signify that something is correct (whereas a red check mark is used
to signify error). If my theory is right, that commercial minus and
division sign minus are the same signs, how on earth is that possible?
How can a minus sign count as positive for the student?
The answer is, I think, to be found in the Code Chart’s Swedish
description ("med avdrag"/"with subtraction/rebate"). Because, I think
that the correct understanding is not that it means "correct" or "OK".
Rather, it denotes something that is counted in the customer/student’s
favor.
