RE: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
I suspect if you look at the JPEG and MPEG standards you'll find there is a normative reference to Unicode or ISO/IEC 10646. Same for standards specifying C, ECMAScript and other languages in which modern software is written. So, arguably the statement isn't much of a stretch at all. Peter From: Unicode On Behalf Of Costello, Roger L. via Unicode Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 11:00 AM To: unicode@unicode.org Subject: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"? Hi Folks, Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, browsers, laptops, and smart phones-plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn't it assuming that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode Standard is silent about them, right? Isn't the above quote a bit misleading? /Roger
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:02:55 + James Kass via Unicode wrote: > On 2019-11-19 6:59 PM, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode wrote: > > Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email > > said this: (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) > > > > The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and > > communications around the world, including all modern operating > > systems, browsers, laptops, and smart phones-plus the Internet and > > Web (URLs, HTML, XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). > > > > That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn't it > > assuming that everything is text? What about binary information > > such as JPEG, GIF, MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the > > Web, right? The Unicode Standard is silent about them, right? Isn't > > the above quote a bit misleading? > A bit, perhaps. But think of it as a press release. > > The statement smacks of hyperbole at first blush, but "foundation" > can mean basis or starting point. File names (and URLs) of *.WAV, > *.MPG, etc. are stored and exchanged via Unicode. Likewise, the tags > (metadata) for audio/video files are stored (and displayed) via > Unicode. So fields such as Title, Artist, Comments/Notes, Release > Date, Label, Composer, and so forth aren't limited to ASCII data. But file names, URLs and syntax tags are still mostly in ASCII. It's only when you come to text data that you get to Unicode; the usual unreliable assumption is that the recipient has the means to display that text. Now, a feature of a *modern* system is that file names and (sometimes) syntax tags can be in Unicode. But have the nightmares of file names and canonical equivalence come to an end? And remember that canonical equivalence isn't just a matter of precomposed letters. Moving away from communications, I still find that if I use 'sort -u' to eliminate repeated lines in unordered lines of text, I have to ensure that I'm using binary identity for comparison - too many collations still treat unknown characters as identical. And this is with a distribution that has UTF-8 as its basic encoding. There's now a looming threat to passwords in truly complex scripts. Keyboards are coming that will prevent certain sequences of characters - Thais have long faced such constraints. Some people may discover that an upgrade of their keyboards renders them unable to type their passwords! Richard.
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
On 2019-11-19 11:00 PM, Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote: Why so concerned with these minutiæ? Were you in fact misled? (Doesn't sound like it.) Do you know someone who was, or whom you fear would be? What incorrect conclusions might they draw from that misunderstanding, and how serious would they be? Doesn't sound like this is really anything serious even if you were right. Anyone unfamiliar with our timeline, such as a millennial, might be led to believe that Unicode was in place before personal computers existed. A bit of research would have dispelled that notion. But thereafter any assertion from Unicode would be suspect. Limiting the claims to text, as Asmus Freytag suggests, might be too limiting. Many people may not realize how prevalent textual data really is in our exchanges of information. Imagine producing a video offering closed captioning/subtitling in French, Italian, and Hebrew without the underlying foundation of Unicode. Rather than limiting this to text, why not substitute something for the word "foundation"? For example: The Unicode Standard is the lodestar for all modern software and communications around the world, ...
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
On 11/19/2019 3:00 PM, Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote: It says "foundation", not "sum total, all there is." I don't think this is much overreach. MAYBE it counts as "enthusiastic", but not misleading. Why so concerned with these minutiæ? Were you in fact misled? (Doesn't sound like it.) Do you know someone who was, or whom you fear would be? What incorrect conclusions might they draw from that misunderstanding, and how serious would they be? Doesn't sound like this is really anything serious even if you were right. Anytime you need to stop and think: "can this be accurate?" you undermine the effectiveness of a message like that. Amending the claim to limit it to "text", for example, would make it more directly applicable and therefore stronger. A./ ~mark On 11/19/19 1:59 PM, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode wrote: Hi Folks, Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, browsers, laptops, and smart phones—plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn’t it assuming that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode Standard is silent about them, right? Isn’t the above quote a bit misleading? /Roger
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
It says "foundation", not "sum total, all there is." I don't think this is much overreach. MAYBE it counts as "enthusiastic", but not misleading. Why so concerned with these minutiæ? Were you in fact misled? (Doesn't sound like it.) Do you know someone who was, or whom you fear would be? What incorrect conclusions might they draw from that misunderstanding, and how serious would they be? Doesn't sound like this is really anything serious even if you were right. ~mark On 11/19/19 1:59 PM, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode wrote: Hi Folks, Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) /The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, browsers, laptops, and smart phones—plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, XML, CSS, JSON, etc.)./ That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn’t it assuming that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode Standard is silent about them, right? Isn’t the above quote a bit misleading? /Roger
RE: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
As a user of bidirectional text when I think of our world before Unicode and the situation today I cannot but wholeheartedly agree. Without Unicode, few international vendors, major and in particular minor ones, would have considered implementing Hebrew in their products. Now we have everything (good things and not so good too). Best Regards, Jonathan Rosenne -Original Message- From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of James Kass via Unicode Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:03 PM To: unicode@unicode.org Subject: Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"? On 2019-11-19 6:59 PM, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode wrote: > Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: > (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) > > The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and > communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, > browsers, laptops, and smart phones-plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, > XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). > > That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn't it assuming > that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, > MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode > Standard is silent about them, right? Isn't the above quote a bit misleading? > A bit, perhaps. But think of it as a press release. The statement smacks of hyperbole at first blush, but "foundation" can mean basis or starting point. File names (and URLs) of *.WAV, *.MPG, etc. are stored and exchanged via Unicode. Likewise, the tags (metadata) for audio/video files are stored (and displayed) via Unicode. So fields such as Title, Artist, Comments/Notes, Release Date, Label, Composer, and so forth aren't limited to ASCII data.
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
On 11/19/2019 12:04 PM, Michael Everson via Unicode wrote: Of course it’s not “misleading”. Human language is best conveyed by text. One could insert the language in [ ] to make the claim sound less like an overreach. It doesn't even impede the flow that much. It would still apply to metadata and protocols. A./ Michael Everson On 19 Nov 2019, at 18:59, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode wrote: Hi Folks, Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) The Unicode Standard is the foundation for [handling written text in] all modern software and communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, browsers, laptops, and smart phones—plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn’t it assuming that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode Standard is silent about them, right? Isn’t the above quote a bit misleading? /Roger
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
On 2019-11-19 6:59 PM, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode wrote: Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, browsers, laptops, and smart phones-plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn't it assuming that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode Standard is silent about them, right? Isn't the above quote a bit misleading? A bit, perhaps. But think of it as a press release. The statement smacks of hyperbole at first blush, but "foundation" can mean basis or starting point. File names (and URLs) of *.WAV, *.MPG, etc. are stored and exchanged via Unicode. Likewise, the tags (metadata) for audio/video files are stored (and displayed) via Unicode. So fields such as Title, Artist, Comments/Notes, Release Date, Label, Composer, and so forth aren't limited to ASCII data.
Re: Is the Unicode Standard "The foundation for all modern software and communications around the world"?
Of course it’s not “misleading”. Human language is best conveyed by text. Michael Everson > On 19 Nov 2019, at 18:59, Costello, Roger L. via Unicode > wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Today I received an email from the Unicode organization. The email said this: > (italics and yellow highlighting are mine) > > The Unicode Standard is the foundation for all modern software and > communications around the world, including all modern operating systems, > browsers, laptops, and smart phones—plus the Internet and Web (URLs, HTML, > XML, CSS, JSON, etc.). > > That is a remarkable statement! But is it entirely true? Isn’t it assuming > that everything is text? What about binary information such as JPEG, GIF, > MPEG, WAV; those are pretty core items to the Web, right? The Unicode > Standard is silent about them, right? Isn’t the above quote a bit misleading? > > /Roger
