Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)
Am Mittwoch, 4. August 2010 um 22:44 schrieb ich: KP> However, in my next version, I will replace the "s" variants by "long s" variants: KP> 017F FE00 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 ... STANDARD FORM KP> · will be displayed long in any script variants KP> 017F FE01 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 FLEXIBLE FORM (naming provisionally) KP> · will be displayed long in Fraktur, Gaelic, and similar script variants KP> · will usually be displayed round when used with Roman type KP> This has the advantage, especially when implicit application of variation sequences KP> is possible, it can be applied to existing data without change. In the final version of my proposal, I have completely dropped this, as this subject obviously needs a separate discussion in a separate proposal. - Karl Pentzlin
Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)
For the "standard form" you probably don't need to add a variation selector. The codepoint for long s itself expresses exactly the semantic to represent this character as long s in ANY type style. While I'm not convinced of your variation proposal at all (on the contrary), if you write it, write it properly. :-) /Sz 2010/8/4 Karl Pentzlin > Am Dienstag, 3. August 2010 um 19:11 schrieb Janusz S. Bień: > > JJSB> I see no reason why, if I understand correctly, the long s variant is > JSB> to be limited to Fraktur-like styles. > > The *variant* is applicable to situations where the character is to be > displayed long when Fraktur-like styles are in effect, while it is to > be displayed round when "modern" styles are in effect. > > The plain *character* "long s" is intended to be displayed long in all > circumstances. > > However, in my next version, I will replace the "s" variants by "long s" > variants: > 017F FE00 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 STANDARD FORM > · will be displayed long in any script variants > 017F FE01 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 FLEXIBLE FORM (naming provisionally) > · will be displayed long in Fraktur, Gaelic, and similar script > variants > · will usually be displayed round when used with Roman type > This has the advantage, especially when implicit application of variation > sequences > is possible, it can be applied to existing data without change. > > - Karl Pentzlin > > > -- Szelp, André Szabolcs +43 (650) 79 22 400
Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)
Am Dienstag, 3. August 2010 um 19:11 schrieb Janusz S. Bień: JJSB> I see no reason why, if I understand correctly, the long s variant is JSB> to be limited to Fraktur-like styles. The *variant* is applicable to situations where the character is to be displayed long when Fraktur-like styles are in effect, while it is to be displayed round when "modern" styles are in effect. The plain *character* "long s" is intended to be displayed long in all circumstances. However, in my next version, I will replace the "s" variants by "long s" variants: 017F FE00 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 STANDARD FORM · will be displayed long in any script variants 017F FE01 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 FLEXIBLE FORM (naming provisionally) · will be displayed long in Fraktur, Gaelic, and similar script variants · will usually be displayed round when used with Roman type This has the advantage, especially when implicit application of variation sequences is possible, it can be applied to existing data without change. - Karl Pentzlin
Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters (was Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters))
On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 05:19, William_J_G Overington > Long s was used with ordinary Roman type in England for English text in at > least part of the 17th and 18th centuries. More on that by babelstone: http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2006/06/rules-for-long-s.html (Sorry for the duplicate email William, my mistake.) -- Leonardo Boiko
Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters (was Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters))
On 4 August 2010 09:19, William_J_G Overington wrote: Answering the two questions below on the assumption that s-VS1 <0073 FE00> were to be defined as a variation sequence for long s in all type styles, and without giving any opinion on the merits or otherwise of Karl's proposal in general, or specifically the merits of double-encoding long s as a variation sequence. > How could one express the following please using variation selectors and the > Zero Width Joiner ZWJ in relation to the two character sequence sh? > > If you have a long s available, please use it, otherwise please use an > ordinary s: furthermore, if you have a long s h ligature available please use > that instead. s-VS1-ZWJ-h Note that there must be no character between a variation selector and the base character it applies to, so the ZWJ must go after VS1. > How could one express the following please using variation selectors and the > Zero Width Joiner ZWJ in relation to the three character sequence ssi? > > If you have a long s available, please use it, otherwise please use an > ordinary s: furthermore, if you have a long s long s i ligature available > please use that instead. The use of long s versus short s and ligaturing of these letters varies widely geographically and historically and depending upon typeface. The following examples would all be valid *if* s-VS1 were to be defined as a variation sequence for long s (in all type styles): s-VS1-ZWJ-s-VS1-ZWJ-i -- for a ligatured ſſi as in "miſſion" (usual in 18th century English typography) s-VS1-s-i -- for a non-ligatured ſsi as in "illuſtriſsimos" (usual in 18th century Spanish typography) s-VS1-ZWJ-s-i -- for a ligatured ſs plus i as in "bleſsings" (usual for italics only in 16th and early 17th century English and French typography) s-s-VS1-ZWJ-i -- for s plus a ligatured ſi as in "utilisſima" (sometimes in 16th century Italian typography) Andrew
Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters (was Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters))
On Tuesday, 3/8/10, Janusz S. Bień wrote: > I see no reason why, if I understand correctly, the long s > variant is to be limited to Fraktur-like styles. Long s was used with ordinary Roman type in England for English text in at least part of the 17th and 18th centuries. How could one express the following please using variation selectors and the Zero Width Joiner ZWJ in relation to the two character sequence sh? If you have a long s available, please use it, otherwise please use an ordinary s: furthermore, if you have a long s h ligature available please use that instead. How could one express the following please using variation selectors and the Zero Width Joiner ZWJ in relation to the three character sequence ssi? If you have a long s available, please use it, otherwise please use an ordinary s: furthermore, if you have a long s long s i ligature available please use that instead. William Overington 4 August 2010
long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 Karl Pentzlin wrote: > I have compiled a draft proposal: > Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters > The draft can be downloaded at: > http://www.pentzlin.com/Variation-Sequences-Latin-Cyrillic2.pdf (4.3 MB). > The final proposal is intended to be submitted for the next UTC > starting next Monday (August 9). I see no reason why, if I understand correctly, the long s variant is to be limited to Fraktur-like styles. Please visit http://poliqarp.wbl.klf.uw.edu.pl/slownik-polszczyzny-xvi-wieku/ and enter e.g. the query "[[=s=]]k[[=a=]]rg"/x within body meta vol=xxxiii You will see several examples of long s in a non-Fraktur-like style. Best regards JSB -- , dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW - Uniwersytet Warszawski (Katedra Lingwistyki Formalnej) Prof. Janusz S. Bien - Warsaw University (Department of Formal Linguistics) jsb...@uw.edu.pl, jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl, http://fleksem.klf.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/
