Re: [UC] Campus Inn

[lomb21]

Tony,

You are probably right that this discussion is too extensive for this 
list-serv especially on Christmas Eve.

I'll try to make my response short:? If your concern for the 40th and Pine site 
is which of the two alternatives (extended stay hotel vs 10,000 sq' commercial 
development) provides the best alternatives in the event the project fails then 
I would suggest this analysis--? a 90,000 sq' building on a site with 4 parking 
spaces, a pool, no side yards or rear yards and built as a 110 room extended 
stay hotel has little or no viable alternative use (other than as student 
housing).

In the alternative, a 10,000 sq' re-do of the mansion where there is first 
floor space requiring some reasonable retail rent and the 5,000 sq' upstairs 
requiring some reasonable office/classroom rent has thousands of alternate uses 
and users especially with the 25 car parking it would provide.? I am not sure 
why you don't believe that a small commercial venture is viable on 40th and 
Pine.? It might be harder to find failed commercial ventures in UC than it is 
to find successful ones even in this economic market.? 

In fact, I can give you?a very real example of a failed hotel in the U Penn/ U 
Penn Hospital area.? The old Hilton across the street from the hospital failed 
in several incarnations.



-Original Message-
From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net
To: UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com
Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn


You have many interesting ideas about 40th St. development, Guy, that deserve 
deeper thought than a snap response on an unmoderated listserve. I'm sure the 
people in the business are giving it thought, amicably or otherwise.?
?
One caution ordinary readers should note is that a long-term business plan 
based on a high end restaurant is even shakier than a plan based on an 
extended stay hotel. The Campus Inn concept has been justly criticized for 
that very weakness: of hiding the longterm risk of downmarket users behind an 
initial promise of an upmarket user. If Campus Inn goes belly up, foes argue, 
it could be converted to rooms where students might sleep ... and there goes 
the neighborhood. We don't want no students sleeping in Spruce Hill, do we now? 
Ew.?
?
The entertainment industry, I must warn readers, is even more volatile than the 
travel industry. It's great for Penn, and flattering for West Philadelphia, 
that Distrito is pitching in such monstrous rents for (gasp!) 40th St. 
nightspot square footage. Maybe a new high-end entertainment district will 
coalesce around 40th St. someday soon. I'm up for that. But I wouldn't bet the 
mortgage on it today.?
?
Long-range planners for a sustainable 40th  Pine property are free to dazzle 
the public with visions of another Distrito ... but should gladly settle for 
another FuddRuckers, if that's what washes up on the beach. Still beats a stop 
 go. There will be no intrinsic protection, however, against that site's 
becoming a stop  go in the future.?
?
There's nothing wrong with either risk, in my opinion. None of the above 
worries me. I could live with walking past any of the above outcomes. For me, 
an upscale restaurant beats a dorm, but an extended-stay hotel beats a stop  
go. The true challenge for the neighborhood, as it mulls over these options, is 
to figure out how to honestly compare apples with apples.?
?
-- Tony West?
?
 I dream that the 40th and Pine site is developed by Campus Apartments  and 
 Tom Lussenhop as a high end restaurant with 25 car parking and  either 
 classroom or community space on the second and third floor. ?
 Guy?
?
?
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the?
list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see?
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Re: [UC] Campus Inn

[Krfapt]

In a message dated 12/24/2008 12:36:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
campio...@juno.com writes:

The  current delays are because the Developers wants what they  want. 
Unwillingness to compromise has been the hallmark of every highly  
contentious issue in this neighborhood for the past decade. Think about:
*   the Alexander School catchment area 
*   The historic district nomination 
*   The Neighborhood Improvement District 
*   The Campus Inn
The people on the various sides shift a bit in the above, for various  
reasons, but the pattern is the same. Considering those reasons, while I  
disagreed with the people on the opposite side from me in the first three of 
the  
above, I had to admit that their points were well taken and that they probably  
didn't fully fathom the collateral damage that would be done along with the  
benefits that would be derived. The Campus Inn is truly different. The project  
is pure greed on the parts of the developers and their Sputniks, and they  
realize full well the damage that they will impose on everyone else in their  
quest for economic rents. Apparently, people like Lussenhop (who is looking 
to  
strike it rich with no money down and doesn't mind prostituting himself to do  
it) haven't learned anything from the attitude of the people who ran Lehman  
Brothers or the other investment banks.  

Always at  your service  ready for a dialog,

Al Krigman -- 36-year local  resident, beloved housing provider, and 
recipient of the 2008 Ignatz Nobil  prize for ratiocination

**One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, 
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0025)

Re: [UC] The Campus Inn Apartment Building

[op...@earthlink.net]

They are proposing an apartment building and calling it a hotel.  The units
are 450 square foot one bedroom apartments.  - Lauren Leatherbarrow

Original Message:
-
From:  lom...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:47:35 -0500
To: anthony_w...@earthlink.net, UnivCity@list.purple.com
Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn


Tony,

You are probably right that this discussion is too extensive for this
list-serv especially on Christmas Eve.

I'll try to make my response short:? If your concern for the 40th and Pine
site is which of the two alternatives (extended stay hotel vs 10,000 sq'
commercial development) provides the best alternatives in the event the
project fails then I would suggest this analysis--? a 90,000 sq' building
on a site with 4 parking spaces, a pool, no side yards or rear yards and
built as a 110 room extended stay hotel has little or no viable alternative
use (other than as student housing).

In the alternative, a 10,000 sq' re-do of the mansion where there is first
floor space requiring some reasonable retail rent and the 5,000 sq'
upstairs requiring some reasonable office/classroom rent has thousands of
alternate uses and users especially with the 25 car parking it would
provide.? I am not sure why you don't believe that a small commercial
venture is viable on 40th and Pine.? It might be harder to find failed
commercial ventures in UC than it is to find successful ones even in
this economic market.? 

In fact, I can give you?a very real example of a failed hotel in the U
Penn/ U Penn Hospital area.? The old Hilton across the street from the
hospital failed in several incarnations.



-Original Message-
From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net
To: UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com
Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn


You have many interesting ideas about 40th St. development, Guy, that
deserve deeper thought than a snap response on an unmoderated listserve.
I'm sure the people in the business are giving it thought, amicably or
otherwise.?
?
One caution ordinary readers should note is that a long-term business plan
based on a high end restaurant is even shakier than a plan based on an
extended stay hotel. The Campus Inn concept has been justly criticized
for that very weakness: of hiding the longterm risk of downmarket users
behind an initial promise of an upmarket user. If Campus Inn goes belly up,
foes argue, it could be converted to rooms where students might sleep ...
and there goes the neighborhood. We don't want no students sleeping in
Spruce Hill, do we now? Ew.?
?
The entertainment industry, I must warn readers, is even more volatile than
the travel industry. It's great for Penn, and flattering for West
Philadelphia, that Distrito is pitching in such monstrous rents for (gasp!)
40th St. nightspot square footage. Maybe a new high-end entertainment
district will coalesce around 40th St. someday soon. I'm up for that. But I
wouldn't bet the mortgage on it today.?
?
Long-range planners for a sustainable 40th  Pine property are free to
dazzle the public with visions of another Distrito ... but should gladly
settle for another FuddRuckers, if that's what washes up on the beach.
Still beats a stop  go. There will be no intrinsic protection, however,
against that site's becoming a stop  go in the future.?
?
There's nothing wrong with either risk, in my opinion. None of the above
worries me. I could live with walking past any of the above outcomes. For
me, an upscale restaurant beats a dorm, but an extended-stay hotel beats a
stop  go. The true challenge for the neighborhood, as it mulls over these
options, is to figure out how to honestly compare apples with apples.?
?
-- Tony West?
?
 I dream that the 40th and Pine site is developed by Campus Apartments 
and Tom Lussenhop as a high end restaurant with 25 car parking and  either
classroom or community space on the second and third floor. ?
 Guy?
?
?
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the?
list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see?
http://www.purple.com/list.html.?




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list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
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Re: [UC] The Campus Inn Apartment Building

[op...@earthlink.net]

They are proposing an apartment building and calling it a hotel.  The units
are 450 square foot one bedroom apartments.  - Lauren Leatherbarrow

Original Message:
-
From:  lom...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:47:35 -0500
To: anthony_w...@earthlink.net, UnivCity@list.purple.com
Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn


Tony,

You are probably right that this discussion is too extensive for this
list-serv especially on Christmas Eve.

I'll try to make my response short:? If your concern for the 40th and Pine
site is which of the two alternatives (extended stay hotel vs 10,000 sq'
commercial development) provides the best alternatives in the event the
project fails then I would suggest this analysis--? a 90,000 sq' building
on a site with 4 parking spaces, a pool, no side yards or rear yards and
built as a 110 room extended stay hotel has little or no viable alternative
use (other than as student housing).

In the alternative, a 10,000 sq' re-do of the mansion where there is first
floor space requiring some reasonable retail rent and the 5,000 sq'
upstairs requiring some reasonable office/classroom rent has thousands of
alternate uses and users especially with the 25 car parking it would
provide.? I am not sure why you don't believe that a small commercial
venture is viable on 40th and Pine.? It might be harder to find failed
commercial ventures in UC than it is to find successful ones even in
this economic market.? 

In fact, I can give you?a very real example of a failed hotel in the U
Penn/ U Penn Hospital area.? The old Hilton across the street from the
hospital failed in several incarnations.



-Original Message-
From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net
To: UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com
Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn


You have many interesting ideas about 40th St. development, Guy, that
deserve deeper thought than a snap response on an unmoderated listserve.
I'm sure the people in the business are giving it thought, amicably or
otherwise.?
?
One caution ordinary readers should note is that a long-term business plan
based on a high end restaurant is even shakier than a plan based on an
extended stay hotel. The Campus Inn concept has been justly criticized
for that very weakness: of hiding the longterm risk of downmarket users
behind an initial promise of an upmarket user. If Campus Inn goes belly up,
foes argue, it could be converted to rooms where students might sleep ...
and there goes the neighborhood. We don't want no students sleeping in
Spruce Hill, do we now? Ew.?
?
The entertainment industry, I must warn readers, is even more volatile than
the travel industry. It's great for Penn, and flattering for West
Philadelphia, that Distrito is pitching in such monstrous rents for (gasp!)
40th St. nightspot square footage. Maybe a new high-end entertainment
district will coalesce around 40th St. someday soon. I'm up for that. But I
wouldn't bet the mortgage on it today.?
?
Long-range planners for a sustainable 40th  Pine property are free to
dazzle the public with visions of another Distrito ... but should gladly
settle for another FuddRuckers, if that's what washes up on the beach.
Still beats a stop  go. There will be no intrinsic protection, however,
against that site's becoming a stop  go in the future.?
?
There's nothing wrong with either risk, in my opinion. None of the above
worries me. I could live with walking past any of the above outcomes. For
me, an upscale restaurant beats a dorm, but an extended-stay hotel beats a
stop  go. The true challenge for the neighborhood, as it mulls over these
options, is to figure out how to honestly compare apples with apples.?
?
-- Tony West?
?
 I dream that the 40th and Pine site is developed by Campus Apartments 
and Tom Lussenhop as a high end restaurant with 25 car parking and  either
classroom or community space on the second and third floor. ?
 Guy?
?
?
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the?
list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see?
http://www.purple.com/list.html.?




mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint



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Re: [UC] Radical variances was Campus Inn

[Glenn moyer]

"The Developers seek radical variances to codes which are designed to protect neighbors.Neighbors should not have to subsidize the "hardships" of poor, institutional choices."

Liz, the "radical variances"are the key issues. At the PHC reversal hearing, the commissioners repeatedly silenced our neighbors whom were challenging lies from the developers, real estate cronies,and SHCA President. (Karen's report was completely accurate.)
Why was the truth irrelevant? Because Penn was not "officially" arguing a financial hardship. (Please note, financial hardship is a specific term, in this case, which imposesadditional processes/requirements.) Yet the 2 "biglies" are the justifications for granting a "financial hardship" and have absolutely nothing to do with interpretation of existing rules! 
At each and everyhearing, Penn has been given a free pass to present these "irrelevant" arguments packed with lies! Now, the Penn troops/commissioners will not allow the veracity of those samearguments to be challenged because, theissuesare irrelevant!
The PHC commissionersasserted that concerrns from the public, theactual occurenceof public forums, and 17 or 18 alternative proposalswere irrelevant!They claimed that only application of the preservation standards would guide them, as they silenced the truth repeatedly! 
Then, they threw those standards in the rubbish pile like PCPC, and approved the tower without explanation! We got lectured for not being "open, transparent, and inclusive" with the developers 
Since PCPC, Greenberger et al., go so far as to repeat the "unwanted parcel" lie as justification for radically ignoring all rules and laws! It's beena perfect little system; a perfect little show!

"Radical variances" are also requested from ZBA laws. Remember, ZBAtoo rejected the application, as was revealed back in February.
OurPenn-friendly city commissions are allowing Penn to argue this "financial hardship" to create a false record of a public process. The reason Penn does not place "financial hardship" on its application is because the 17 or 18 proposals would need to be presented, and the university would have other responsibilities to prove, "financial hardship!"
We need a radical court challenge against the city's violation of our rightsand their rubber stamp! We've known for a long time that the Penn team is full of __it. I believe we need to focus on the city's violation of standards and our rights!
Happy holidays,
Glenn


-Original Message- From: "campio...@juno.com" Sent: Dec 24, 2008 12:34 AM To: UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn 
Guy has provided some thoughtful writing on the 40th Street Hotel plans.
Tony, I think the profits / volatility argument is more a consideration for the developers. 
We neighbors have every right to continue to defend our existing zoning, building codesand height limitations against rapacious developers.
If the Hotel fails the neighborhood is stuck with a monolith and 100+ units that can be easily converted to use as a Homeless Shelter, Dormitory or Condo. An 11 story building is a dramatic and permanentanomaly within our Victorian Street Car Suburb. The neighborhood will bear the risks and annoyances of construction and the ultimate use. The precedent could than be used to attempt hi-rise construction on the se corner of 43rd  Baltimore, or any other lot, existing or to be razed,in our neighborhood. 
If a Restaurant, within aconforming structure fails,the adaptive uses might be less onerous.
Glenn reminds us that Esau Sanchez spoke of plans that were rejectedand hopes by Academic departments that were not funded. Like Glenn, I'd like to see the proposals.
PENN caneliminate competition, by overpaying. But PENNshould not be rewarded for eliminating competition or organic, growth. The Developers seek radical variances to codes which are designed to protect neighbors.Neighbors should not have to subsidize the "hardships" of poor, institutional choices.
If PENN hadn't overpaid, another family, like the O'Donnells of 4100, might have settled in already. 
The current delays are becausethe Developerswants whatthey want. This does not include playing within the codes and regulations that were in place, when they bought. Pretending theywere not aware of codesor their obligation of "Due Diligence" is little more than a flipping of the bird at usneighbors.
Resistance is righteous. Encroachment is an unwanted and unwarranted act of aggression. Don't let's confuse who is profit seeking at the expense of whom.

Merry Christmas and all the best in 2009 and beyond to all good neighbors!
Liz
-- Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote:You have many interesting ideas about 40th St. development, Guy, that deserve deeper thought than a snap response on an unmoderated listserve. I'm sure the people in the business are giving it thought, amicably or otherwise.One caution ordinary readers should note is that a long-term business plan 

RE: [UC] Disclosure of relationships at hearings

[Glenn moyer]

"Yes, the newcomer real estateagentwho was "outed" on the 50 condo deal first claimed he had no personal interest, butonce he was outed hewhined about how others gotdeals from Penn too! What was funny was that this man only moved to 46th and Osage in April of 2008. He parachutes into this neighborhood from who-knows-where, gets a fat condo deal from Penn, and surprise! He supports the Penn project!Who'd a thunk it! But there's no conflict of interest! It's like they say: Don't believe your lying eyes- believe me!"

I nearly burst with laughter when he said that projects likeCampus Innare the reason he moved to the neighborhood.
To paraphrase; I'm not saying it was just this one, but projects like the Campus Inn are why my wife and i moved here-hahaha. That's so pathetic.
Wow, did you see the look in his eyes and hear his tone when he was outed as a fibber? That dude scares me!
Happy holidays,
Glenn
-Original Message- From: KAREN ALLEN Sent: Dec 23, 2008 5:33 PM To: UnivCity Listserv Subject: RE: [UC] Disclosure of relationships at hearings 

Yes, the newcomer real estateagentwho was "outed" on the 50 condo deal first claimed he had no personal interest, butonce he was outed hewhined about how others gotdeals from Penn too! What was funny was that this man only moved to 46th and Osage in April of 2008. He parachutes into this neighborhood from who-knows-where, gets a fat condo deal from Penn, and surprise! He supports the Penn project!Who'd a thunk it! But there's no conflict of interest! It's like they say: Don't believe your lying eyes- believe me!Another telling event was when SHCA President Ed Halligan testified thatSpruce Hill's election meeting in November of 2007 featured a"public" presentationon the Campus Innthat was attendedby"hundreds" of people.I testified immediately after him at the request of another opponent in order to offer testimony about that "public" meeting: that neither theelection meeting notice nor the meeting agenda specified thatLussenhop or the Campus Inn project would be discussed, andthat there was noattempt whatsoever to reach out to non-members, thus suppressing the number of people who would have otherwise attended. Suddenly the Commission chairman didn't regard testimony about"public" meetings as being relevant. But Listserv readers will recall that there was much discussion about Lussenhop appearing unannounced at other meetings such as First Thursday, Friends of40th Street, andthe University City Historical Society.The strategy there was to for Lussenhop to be able to claim that he was engaging the community, when in reality he and his supporters were suppressing potential opposition byshutting out those who do not participate in such meetings. The only truly "public" meetingwas the Zoning Committee meeting that was first slated to be held in the too-small Spruce Hill office.Spruce Hillwasforced tomove the meeting to 42nd and Baltimore by accusations that they were deliberately using a location with limited space. Once it was moved,the meeting waspublicizedby Campus Inn opponents who created the "Hotel in Our Hood?" fliers and taped themtoutility poles.The large crowd that turned outregistered overwhelming oppositon to Campus Inn. But during his testimony, Halliganalso claimed thatthe community was evenly split about the project. The community wasoverwhelmingly opposed, but the Spruce Hill Zoning committee was split... I guess that counts as as "even".  Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:56:22 -0500 From: glen...@earthlink.net To: univcity@list.purple.com Subject: [UC] Disclosure of relationships at hearings   Some real estate people who testified at the recent PHC hearing in support of Campus Inn went out of their way to claim that they have no financial relationship with the development team. Then of course, they followed with the big lie, Penn's financial hardship song!  One real estate person did so until another neighbor called out that he had recently been involved with the U. real estate on a deal of 50 condos. Only then did the one failing to disclose, admit it; saying something like, other agents got deals too.   Of course, our neighbor telling the truth was the target of the wrath from the rubber stamping PHC, because the truth teller was “out of order.”Another real estate person on UCD committees with Tom, (UCD is operated by Campus Apts and Penn Real Estate controlling the board); failed to disclose her or his relationships with the development team. That person even completed a private survey on this list to gather evidence of community support for UCD/Penn BID. That is actually strong connections with the entire development team.  To me, this is like when Mr. Zitcer, the arts activist, forgot to tell the PW readers that he worked for Penn Real Estate when he was confused about why West Philly residents would protest the policies of Penn Real Estate.   How can people forget these important details? 

RE: [UC] Campus Inn

[KAREN ALLEN]

Liz, you make an excellent point about Penn overpaying for the land. Penn 
apologist(s) claim that since Penn paid so much for it, they have no other 
choice but to seek a use that makes economic sense, and Penn alone gets to 
say what economic sense is.  As if someone was holding a gun to their heads 
and forcing them to pay $1.8 million. And as if they don't operate top flight 
law and business schools that TEACH students how to do due diligence and market 
analysis. Give me a bleeping break!
 
Penn can eliminate all competition by paying what seems like ridiculous prices 
for a property, then claim they have no other choice but to build eleven story 
buildings to recover the cost. The fact is that Penn is the ultimate deep 
pocket, which explains why opportunists like the guy who got the 50-condo deal 
from Penn crawled out of the woodwork to support their project. And Penn has 
all of the legal and business expertise they will ever need at their 
fingertips. So if Penn or anyone else tries to equate Penn's position with the 
limitations faced by a  private individual buyer, understand that your 
intellegence is being insulted.   



From: campio...@juno.comdate: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:34:50 +To: 
univc...@list.purple.comsubject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn
Guy has provided some thoughtful writing on the 40th Street Hotel plans.
Tony, I think the profits / volatility argument is more a consideration for the 
developers. 
We neighbors have every right to continue to defend our existing zoning, 
building codes and height limitations against rapacious developers.
If the Hotel fails the neighborhood is stuck with a monolith and 100+ units 
that can be easily converted to use as a Homeless Shelter, Dormitory or Condo.  
An 11 story building is a dramatic and permanent anomaly within our Victorian 
Street Car Suburb.  The neighborhood will bear the risks and annoyances of 
construction and the ultimate use.  The precedent could than be used to attempt 
hi-rise construction on the se corner of 43rd  Baltimore, or any other lot, 
existing or to be razed, in our neighborhood. 
If a Restaurant, within a conforming structure fails, the adaptive uses might 
be less onerous.
Glenn reminds us that Esau Sanchez spoke of plans that were rejected and hopes 
by Academic departments that were not funded.  Like Glenn, I'd like to see the 
proposals.
PENN can eliminate competition, by overpaying.  But PENN should not be rewarded 
for eliminating competition or organic, growth.  The Developers seek radical 
variances to codes which are designed to protect neighbors.  Neighbors should 
not have to subsidize the hardships of poor, institutional choices.
If PENN hadn't overpaid, another family, like the O'Donnells of 4100, might 
have settled in already.  
The current delays are because the Developers wants what they want.  This does 
not include playing within the codes and regulations that were in place, when 
they bought.  Pretending they were not aware of codes or their obligation of 
Due Diligence is little more than a flipping of the bird at us neighbors.
Resistance is righteous.  Encroachment is an unwanted and unwarranted act of 
aggression.  Don't let's confuse who is profit seeking at the expense of whom.
 
Merry Christmas and all the best in 2009 and beyond to all good neighbors!
Liz
-- Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote:You have many interesting 
ideas about 40th St. development, Guy, that deserve deeper thought than a snap 
response on an unmoderated listserve. I'm sure the people in the business are 
giving it thought, amicably or otherwise.One caution ordinary readers should 
note is that a long-term business plan based on a high end restaurant is even 
shakier than a plan based on an extended stay hotel. The Campus Inn concept 
has been justly criticized for that very weakness: of hiding the longterm risk 
of downmarket users behind an initial promise of an upmarket user. If Campus 
Inn goes belly up, foes argue, it could be converted to rooms where students 
might sleep ... and there goes the neighborhood. We don't want no students 
sleeping in Spruce Hill, do we now? Ew.The entertainment industry, I must warn 
readers, is even more volatile than the travel industry. It's great for Penn, 
and flattering for West Philadelphia, that Distrito is pitching in such 
monstrous rents for (gasp!) 40th St. nightspot square footage. Maybe a new 
high-end entertainment district will coalesce around 40th St. someday soon. I'm 
up for that. But I wouldn't bet the mortgage on it today.Long-range planners 
for a sustainable 40th  Pine property are free to dazzle the public with 
visions of another Distrito ... but should gladly settle for another 
FuddRuckers, if that's what washes up on the beach. Still beats a stop  go. 
There will be no intrinsic protection, however, against that site's becoming a 
stop  go in the future.There's nothing wrong with either risk, in my opinion. 
None of the above worries me. I could live 

Re: [UC] Campus Inn

[Glenn moyer]

"In fact, I can give youa very real example of a failed hotel in the U Penn/ U Penn Hospital area. The old Hilton across the street from the hospital failed in several incarnations."
Guy, thanks for clearing this up. Most people understand thatthe towering beasthas nothing to do with the hospitals.But I wasn't sure what prompted the closure of that hotel. The bridge across 34th St meant that guests could access Chop and Hup without going outside. (Hospital families generally get $99 rooms near the airport.)
In addition to the obvious target markets for CI, the apartment dimensions of extended stay hotels (which Lauren mentions) is a big clue to me. Many years, the U. does not have enough on campus housing for incoming students. They end up renting spaces in other places. So it's Penn parents, visiting academicians, and a spillover destination for overbooked years that looks like the target market- Not hospital families
"You are probably right that this discussion is too extensive for this list-serv especially on Christmas Eve."
Here, I completely disagree. The listserv is one of the few mechanisms for community members to quickly and thoroughly discuss important community crises. Compare our grassroots communication options to the incredible never ending power of the university's spin machine. I see the list as a tremendously important place for us to share reports, ideas, and the truth.
Consider the pattern: Like the BID and the Clark Park redesign, both times the U. made a "slam dunk" push for this Campus Inn have been during the holiday season. It seems all potentially unpopular projects from the university are destined to be pushed near to Christmas. (Intersting that the library cuts were also slam dunked during the season)
It's a shame that concerned active citizens are always on call when powerful entities do the slam dunk during the holidays. I think of the activism of our neighbors, as one of the more inspiring and satisfying presents of all!
Happy holidays,
Glenn

-Original Message- From: lom...@aol.com Sent: Dec 24, 2008 4:47 AM To: anthony_w...@earthlink.net, UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn Tony,You are probably right that this discussion is too extensive for this list-serv especially on Christmas Eve.I'll try to make my response short: If your concern for the 40th and Pine site is which of the two alternatives (extended stay hotel vs 10,000 sq' commercial development) provides the best alternatives in the event the project fails then I would suggest this analysis-- a 90,000 sq' building on a site with 4 parking spaces, a pool, no side yards or rear yards and built as a 110 room extended stay hotel has little or no viable alternative use (other than as student housing).In the alternative, a 10,000 sq' re-do of the mansion where there is first floor space requiring some reasonable retail rent and the 5,000 sq' upstairs requiring some reasonable office/classroom rent has thousands of alternate uses and users especially with the 25 car parking it would provide. I am not sure why you don't believe that a small commercial venture is viable on 40th and Pine. It might be harder to find failed commercial ventures in UC than it is to find successful ones even in this economic market. In fact, I can give youa very real example of a failed hotel in the U Penn/ U Penn Hospital area. The old Hilton across the street from the hospital failed in several incarnations.-Original Message-From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.netTo: UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.comSent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:55 pmSubject: Re: [UC] Campus Inn
You have many interesting ideas about 40th St. development, Guy, that deserve deeper thought than a snap response on an unmoderated listserve. I'm sure the people in the business are giving it thought, amicably or otherwise.One caution ordinary readers should note is that a long-term business plan based on a "high end restaurant" is even shakier than a plan based on an "extended stay hotel". The Campus Inn concept has been justly criticized for that very weakness: of hiding the longterm risk of downmarket users behind an initial promise of an upmarket user. If Campus Inn goes belly up, foes argue, it could be converted to rooms where students might sleep ... and there goes the neighborhood. We don't want no students sleeping in Spruce Hill, do we now? Ew.The entertainment industry, I must warn readers, is even more volatile than the travel industry. It's great for Penn, and flattering for West Philadelphia, that Distrito is pitching in such monstrous rents for (gasp!) 40th St. nightspot square footage. Maybe a new high-end entertainment district will coalesce around 40th St. someday soon. I'm up for that. But I wouldn't bet the mortgage on it today.Long-range planners for a sustainable 40th  Pine property are free to dazzle the public with visions of another Distrito ... but should gladly settle for another FuddRuckers, if that's