Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Wilma de Soto]

I don't really have a nickel in this dime.

I did generalize about "Friends of" groups  in UC because that has been my
experience with them. I am aware of other neighborhood groups around the
city though I haven't worked with them or had any experience with them.

What was confusing me in the discussion thread was who or which entity had
knowledge of the chemical spray in the park. As I said before there were
things which did not meet my approval with other organizations where I was
a volunteer.  When brought to book about them from people who knew I was a
member, I had to take the heat because after all, who else could they ask?
 As a member I was ultimately responsible even though said events took
place that were not particularly my doing.

That's what I was muddled about and to a certain extent a bit still.

On 6/19/11 10:10 AM, "Anthony West"  wrote:

>Oh! I get you now.
>
>Well, all I can say is all people whose names begin with "Wilma" aren't
>the same, and all organizations whose names begin with "Friends of"
>aren't the same. Both are common-enough names. You can't generalize too
>much from either one.
>
>I'm only talking about park-support groups, which all across the city,
>in fancy neighborhoods and shabby neighborhoods, among whites, Blacks,
>Hispanics and Asians, are typically called "Friends of [] Park".
>
>-- Tony West
>
>
>On 6/19/2011 9:57 AM, Wilma de Soto wrote:
>> They aren't because they were not specifically with park-support groups.
>> You are twisting my words. Perhaps it's why observing this thread on the
>> listserv had become so muddling to me.
>
>
>You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

Oh! I get you now.

Well, all I can say is all people whose names begin with "Wilma" aren't 
the same, and all organizations whose names begin with "Friends of" 
aren't the same. Both are common-enough names. You can't generalize too 
much from either one.


I'm only talking about park-support groups, which all across the city, 
in fancy neighborhoods and shabby neighborhoods, among whites, Blacks, 
Hispanics and Asians, are typically called "Friends of [] Park".


-- Tony West


On 6/19/2011 9:57 AM, Wilma de Soto wrote:

They aren't because they were not specifically with park-support groups.
You are twisting my words. Perhaps it's why observing this thread on the
listserv had become so muddling to me.



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

Wilma,

At the grand opening of the Clark Park "Park A Revitalization Campaign" 
on Thursday, Deputy Mayor for Environmental & Community Resources Mike 
DiBerardinis ticked off the key players in the partnership that enabled 
the City Dept. of Parks & Recreation to pull it off. They are --


Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell
The Food Trust
Friends of Clark Park
HMS School
Penna. Dept. of Conservation & Natural Resources
Penna. Horticultural Society
Phila. Water Dept.
Rep. Jim Roebuck
Sen. Tony Williams
UCD
UCGreen
USP.

150 people attended this event and witnessed it.

The facts of this long and complex process are well known to to all the 
partners who have been working together. It can be confusing at times, 
though, and it is not wrong to be confused! If you are confused about 
any issue, your first and best source of information will be from those 
organizations which were involved and are experienced, not from people 
who weren't and aren't. The Park A reconstruction project was carried 
out by a well-known general contractor, Donato Spaventa, which has 
handled a lot of City work over the years. This company applied the 
chemical, supervised by City engineers who monitor City contracts.


In a few hours, I'll put up a Facebook album of the Grand Opening. You 
may find it'll help give you a clearer understanding of the players in 
this big partnership.


-- Tony West



On 6/19/2011 9:41 AM, Wilma de Soto wrote:

Glenn,

The only reason I brought it up because it was getting confusing to 
me.  A volunteer myself I understand what that means. I'm not that 
dense.  However, it appeared there was a disavowal of any knowledge of 
the chemical being used and all culpability was aimed at the city and 
parks commission.


There were things that happened during my volunteer service I did not 
exactly like, but I had to take the heat because I was part of the 
organization; nature of the beast and all that.  And so it goes.

From: Glenn moyer mailto:glen...@earthlink.net>>
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:22:51 -0400
To: Alex de Soto mailto:wil.p...@comcast.net>>
Cc: Richard Conrad <mailto:rdcon...@verizon.net>>, UnivCity listserv 
mailto:UnivCity@list.purple.com>>

Subject: Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

From the UCD Quest, Summer 2010

"UCD and the Clark Park Partnership, a consortium that OVERSEES park 
maintenance, events, POLICIES and capital projects..."



Wilma,

While Mr. West continually points to the Parks Dept., it seems that 
UCD claims that it is in charge of Clark Park in this publication.

Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Wilma de Soto]

They aren't because they were not specifically with park-support groups.
You are twisting my words. Perhaps it's why observing this thread on the
listserv had become so muddling to me.

On 6/19/11 9:46 AM, "Anthony West"  wrote:

>Wilma,
>
>I cited four neighborhood groups in University City which have been
>vigorous advocates for specific parks. Which of these cited
>"gentrification" as the reason why they supported improving their park,
>in your experience? Are there other park-support groups in UC I have
>missed, which you can think of?
>
>If your experiences with park-support groups do not include experiences
>with any of the actual park-support groups in UC, then how are your
>experiences relevant to what UC's park activists have been doing?
>
>Cheers,
>
>--Tony West
>
>
>On 6/19/2011 9:34 AM, Wilma de Soto wrote:
>> One: I was speaking in particular to the various "Friends of.." groups
>>in
>> UC.
>>
>> Two: I was stating what they were doing that has part of MY experience
>> with them.
>>
>> Three: Please don't sprinkle in names like Malcolm X Park and Barkan
>>Park
>> to try to diminish or disregard my experiences. It's too much like
>> Republicans saying how much they dislike President Obama, but saying how
>> wonderful Herman Cain is.
>
>
>You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
>list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
>.



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

Wilma,

I cited four neighborhood groups in University City which have been 
vigorous advocates for specific parks. Which of these cited 
"gentrification" as the reason why they supported improving their park, 
in your experience? Are there other park-support groups in UC I have 
missed, which you can think of?


If your experiences with park-support groups do not include experiences 
with any of the actual park-support groups in UC, then how are your 
experiences relevant to what UC's park activists have been doing?


Cheers,

--Tony West


On 6/19/2011 9:34 AM, Wilma de Soto wrote:

One: I was speaking in particular to the various "Friends of.." groups in
UC.

Two: I was stating what they were doing that has part of MY experience
with them.

Three: Please don't sprinkle in names like Malcolm X Park and Barkan Park
to try to diminish or disregard my experiences. It's too much like
Republicans saying how much they dislike President Obama, but saying how
wonderful Herman Cain is.



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Wilma de Soto]

Glenn,

The only reason I brought it up because it was getting confusing to me.  A
volunteer myself I understand what that means. I'm not that dense.  However,
it appeared there was a disavowal of any knowledge of the chemical being
used and all culpability was aimed at the city and parks commission.

There were things that happened during my volunteer service I did not
exactly like, but I had to take the heat because I was part of the
organization; nature of the beast and all that.  And so it goes.
From:  Glenn moyer 
Date:  Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:22:51 -0400
To:  Alex de Soto 
Cc:  Richard Conrad , UnivCity listserv

Subject:  Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible


 From the UCD Quest, Summer 2010
 
 "UCD and the Clark Park Partnership, a consortium that OVERSEES park
maintenance, events, POLICIES and capital projects..."
 
 
 Wilma,
 
 While Mr. West continually points to the Parks Dept., it seems that UCD
claims that it is in charge of Clark Park in this publication.  (However,
we've seen before that UCD tells different stories to different
publications.)
 
 Wilma, Tony West is using the circular deception designed and rehearsed to
frustrate and stone wall anyone asking questions of the secret partnership.
You and others have asked the FOCP leaders for embarrassing secret
information.  It is abundantly clear that they have no intention of
answering anyone.  Everyone saw their grasp for red herrings when Glenn
Moyer's vile insane lies were the center of all their initial replies about
RoundUp.
 
 Tony West knows that the Parks Dept. will also protect the secrecy by
answering any questions about RoundUp by playing stupid and pointing to "the
community and its partners."  UCD will also answer that all decisions are
made by the community and the Parks Dept.
 
 Once a person goes through this, as I have, he or she will understand this
technique used in an iron triangle.  It's a corollary to catch 22.  Each
group gives you an answer that only tells you that you will never get an
honest answer.  No one seems to know when, where, and by whom decisions are
made whenever someone is asking questions!  But when they are marketing,
then they are all sophisticated well informed partners bringing salvation to
all that they touch-haha
 
 Wilma writes:
 
 
"I say this because if they are truly accountable to the community,
questions put forth in good faith to the leaders of these organizations by
concerned neighbors should be answered in good faith without spin or
rancor."

Yes indeed!  If they are representatives of this community, as they claim,
is it not their primary duty to honestly and politely answer their
constituents questions?  But for years, we've seen that their primary
mission is protecting the power and secrecy of their partnership with
UCD/Penn while they get angry at all questions because they're hard working
volunteers.  For years, I asked for the time, date, and location of their
secret meetings, and that was why I was personally attacked and the meetings
always remained secret and exclusive.

Tony West and Brian Siano have been the FOCP leaders for ten years.  The
members of FOCP should be ashamed at the behavior of these UCD operatives
who treat so many people so badly with so much deception.  This is what
happens when people are lured by the glitter of fool's gold and turn a blind
eye to behavior that they would otherwise condemn!

Thanks for speaking up for truth,
Glenn
   
 
 
 
 On 6/18/2011 9:56 PM, Wilma de Soto wrote:
>  
> Actually, I am getting a bit muddled following this discussion thread.  If
> the Friends of Clark Park don't really have any say or input as to what
> happens in Clark Park whether its plantings or chemicals used in the park,
> for what reason do they exist?
> 
> The Fairmount Park System is one of the best in the country and has worked
> hard to maintained our vast system of city parks.  If the City and Park
> Commission are making the decisions for Clark Park and not FOCP along with
> Penn and the UCD, why is an organization such as FOCP deemed necessary?  I
> am not trying to be funny, but I really don't get it.
> 
> It has been my experience that the various and sundry "Friends of..."
> groups in UC have been a huge part of the gentrification drive in the
> neighborhood and tend to set the agenda for various public and private
> projects to transform use of these spaces as they see fit and for whom
> they deem fit in the name of the community, which they do not actually
> represent.  
> 
> I say this because if they are truly accountable to the community,
> questions put forth in good faith to the leaders of these organizations by
> concerned neighbors should be answered in good faith without spin or
> rancor.
> 
> Either the FOCP knew about the use of this chemical and how the park would
> be revamped and 

Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Wilma de Soto]

One: I was speaking in particular to the various "Friends of.." groups in
UC.

Two: I was stating what they were doing that has part of MY experience
with them.

Three: Please don't sprinkle in names like Malcolm X Park and Barkan Park
to try to diminish or disregard my experiences. It's too much like
Republicans saying how much they dislike President Obama, but saying how
wonderful Herman Cain is.

On 6/18/11 11:56 PM, "Anthony West"  wrote:

>Wilma,
>
>You are opposed, then, to the Friends of Barkan Park and the Friends of
>Malcolm X Park and Cedar Park Neighbors and Saunders Park Neighbors. All
>of these groups are bad gentrifier groups, in your experience, you say.
>What is your particular experience with each one of these groups, which
>leads you to accuse each one of them of being bad gentrifiers? Was
>trying to make their parks better a bad thing in itself, because
>gentrifiers might like a better park?
>
>"Friends of X Park" support groups are widely dispersed around the city,
>mostly in bluecollar neighborhoods. Do you also condemn Friends of
>Carroll Park, at 58th & Girard, of being bad gentrifiers for lobbying to
>get that exercise track installed 7 years or so ago? Are you asserting
>Carroll Park is at risk of gentrification?
>
>"Friends of X Park" groups are a basic part of the city's
>park-management strategy, because the city's public park-management
>bureaucracy has been grossly underfunded for decades (compared to other
>cities), so there are not enough public employees anywhere to handle
>community relations. We park volunteers have stepped into the breach. We
>do it everywhere, because we love our neighborhoods and we love our city.
>
>Please be specific about why you are opposed to each park improvement in
>each park, and explain why not a single one of these community groups
>"represents the community," which you say is always against every
>improvement in every park, everywhere in Philadelphia. Do you have any
>evidence for this claim? It seems awfully far-reaching, to say the
>least, Wilma. Give us at least one concrete example, somewhere.
>
>I'll stand with my park-loving buddies across West Philadelphia and
>across the city. I know my man Greg Cojulun at Malcolm X has my back and
>I have his. Honestly -- I don't get you park-haters at all. I mean, what
>have you got against parks, that you want them all to be crappy and
>never get any funding?
>
>-- Tony West
>
>
>
>On 6/18/2011 9:56 PM, Wilma de Soto wrote:
>> The Fairmount Park System is one of the best in the country and has
>>worked
>> hard to maintained our vast system of city parks.  If the City and Park
>> Commission are making the decisions for Clark Park and not FOCP along
>>with
>> Penn and the UCD, why is an organization such as FOCP deemed necessary?
>> I
>> am not trying to be funny, but I really don't get it.
>>
>> It has been my experience that the various and sundry "Friends of..."
>> groups in UC have been a huge part of the gentrification drive in the
>> neighborhood and tend to set the agenda for various public and private
>> projects to transform use of these spaces as they see fit and for whom
>> they deem fit in the name of the community, which they do not actually
>> represent.
>
>
>You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
>list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
>.



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

Glenn wrote:


Once a person goes through this, as I have, he or she will understand 
this technique used in an iron triangle.




the solution seems obvious:

penn's ucd can go to the farmers' market at clark park next 
saturday and buy up all the bottles of organic compost tea, 
and then spray it wherever they've used chemicals in clark park.


no need for the community, focp, OR the city's parks dept.


..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN
























































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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Glenn]

From the UCD Quest, Summer 2010

"UCD and the Clark Park Partnership, a consortium that OVERSEES park 
maintenance, events, POLICIES and capital projects..."



Wilma,

While Mr. West continually points to the Parks Dept., it seems that UCD 
claims that it is in charge of Clark Park in this publication.  
(However, we've seen before that UCD tells different stories to 
different publications.)


Wilma, Tony West is using the circular deception designed and rehearsed 
to frustrate and stone wall anyone asking questions of the secret 
partnership.  You and others have asked the FOCP leaders for 
embarrassing secret information.  It is abundantly clear that they have 
no intention of answering anyone.  Everyone saw their grasp for red 
herrings when Glenn Moyer's vile insane lies were the center of all 
their initial replies about RoundUp.


Tony West knows that the Parks Dept. will also protect the secrecy by 
answering any questions about RoundUp by playing stupid and pointing to 
"the community and its partners."  UCD will also answer that all 
decisions are made by the community and the Parks Dept.


Once a person goes through this, as I have, he or she will understand 
this technique used in an iron triangle.  It's a corollary to catch 22.  
Each group gives you an answer that only tells you that you will never 
get an honest answer.  No one seems to know when, where, and by whom 
decisions are made whenever someone is asking questions!  But when they 
are marketing, then they are all sophisticated well informed partners 
bringing salvation to all that they touch-haha


Wilma writes:

"I say this because if they are truly accountable to the community,
questions put forth in good faith to the leaders of these organizations by
concerned neighbors should be answered in good faith without spin or
rancor."

Yes indeed!  If they are representatives of this community, as they claim, is 
it not their primary duty to honestly and politely answer their constituents 
questions?  But for years, we've seen that their primary mission is protecting 
the power and secrecy of their partnership with UCD/Penn while they get angry 
at all questions because they're hard working volunteers.  For years, I asked 
for the time, date, and location of their secret meetings, and that was why I 
was personally attacked and the meetings always remained secret and exclusive.

Tony West and Brian Siano have been the FOCP leaders for ten years.  The 
members of FOCP should be ashamed at the behavior of these UCD operatives who 
treat so many people so badly with so much deception.  This is what happens 
when people are lured by the glitter of fool's gold and turn a blind eye to 
behavior that they would otherwise condemn!

Thanks for speaking up for truth,
Glenn





On 6/18/2011 9:56 PM, Wilma de Soto wrote:

Actually, I am getting a bit muddled following this discussion thread.  If
the Friends of Clark Park don't really have any say or input as to what
happens in Clark Park whether its plantings or chemicals used in the park,
for what reason do they exist?

The Fairmount Park System is one of the best in the country and has worked
hard to maintained our vast system of city parks.  If the City and Park
Commission are making the decisions for Clark Park and not FOCP along with
Penn and the UCD, why is an organization such as FOCP deemed necessary?  I
am not trying to be funny, but I really don't get it.

It has been my experience that the various and sundry "Friends of..."
groups in UC have been a huge part of the gentrification drive in the
neighborhood and tend to set the agenda for various public and private
projects to transform use of these spaces as they see fit and for whom
they deem fit in the name of the community, which they do not actually
represent.

I say this because if they are truly accountable to the community,
questions put forth in good faith to the leaders of these organizations by
concerned neighbors should be answered in good faith without spin or
rancor.

Either the FOCP knew about the use of this chemical and how the park would
be revamped and were in on the decisions with the other entities or they
didn't.  If they didn't what purpose do they serve? There is FAR too much
protesting of innocence from their end.  It's quite confusing and I
usually follow things without getting muddled.

On 6/18/11 9:29 PM, "Richard Conrad"  wrote:



On Jun 18, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Anthony West wrote:


a foolish error...  when you babble about...


[UC] Tony West's 'criticism' burning is visible!


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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

You rock, Lew.

-- Tony West



On 6/18/2011 11:51 PM, Lewis Mellman wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmxcmpR1GQA&feature=related



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

Wilma,

You are opposed, then, to the Friends of Barkan Park and the Friends of 
Malcolm X Park and Cedar Park Neighbors and Saunders Park Neighbors. All 
of these groups are bad gentrifier groups, in your experience, you say. 
What is your particular experience with each one of these groups, which 
leads you to accuse each one of them of being bad gentrifiers? Was 
trying to make their parks better a bad thing in itself, because 
gentrifiers might like a better park?


"Friends of X Park" support groups are widely dispersed around the city, 
mostly in bluecollar neighborhoods. Do you also condemn Friends of 
Carroll Park, at 58th & Girard, of being bad gentrifiers for lobbying to 
get that exercise track installed 7 years or so ago? Are you asserting 
Carroll Park is at risk of gentrification?


"Friends of X Park" groups are a basic part of the city's 
park-management strategy, because the city's public park-management 
bureaucracy has been grossly underfunded for decades (compared to other 
cities), so there are not enough public employees anywhere to handle 
community relations. We park volunteers have stepped into the breach. We 
do it everywhere, because we love our neighborhoods and we love our city.


Please be specific about why you are opposed to each park improvement in 
each park, and explain why not a single one of these community groups 
"represents the community," which you say is always against every 
improvement in every park, everywhere in Philadelphia. Do you have any 
evidence for this claim? It seems awfully far-reaching, to say the 
least, Wilma. Give us at least one concrete example, somewhere.


I'll stand with my park-loving buddies across West Philadelphia and 
across the city. I know my man Greg Cojulun at Malcolm X has my back and 
I have his. Honestly -- I don't get you park-haters at all. I mean, what 
have you got against parks, that you want them all to be crappy and 
never get any funding?


-- Tony West



On 6/18/2011 9:56 PM, Wilma de Soto wrote:

The Fairmount Park System is one of the best in the country and has worked
hard to maintained our vast system of city parks.  If the City and Park
Commission are making the decisions for Clark Park and not FOCP along with
Penn and the UCD, why is an organization such as FOCP deemed necessary?  I
am not trying to be funny, but I really don't get it.

It has been my experience that the various and sundry "Friends of..."
groups in UC have been a huge part of the gentrification drive in the
neighborhood and tend to set the agenda for various public and private
projects to transform use of these spaces as they see fit and for whom
they deem fit in the name of the community, which they do not actually
represent.



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Lewis Mellman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmxcmpR1GQA&feature=related

On Jun 18, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Anthony West wrote:

 the sod is not a monoculture. It contains a mix of different  
species, which may react differently in specific locations.


Hanes is the professional in charge, and he doesn't think Roundup is  
causing this phenomenon. For us laymen, this makes sense as well.  
Roundup was applied evenly across the park, so it shouldn't cause  
patchy damage.


Hanes emphasized that newly-aid sod is still fragile. It needs to be  
babied during its first year. Park-lovers will be working to spread  
that word. Ray (that's "University Citoyen's" real name, for  
newcomers), if you want to organize an organic-compost movement for  
the park, that would be wonderful! Please coordinate with Friends of  
Clark Park and we'll explore if this is workable.


Dandelions or clover were not included in the new sod which was laid  
down, so it's unlikely you'd expect to see them this soon. Don't  
worry, all you weed-lovers, they'll enter soon enough by themselves;  
you don't need to spend half a mill to plant them.


You repeat a foolish error, Ray, when you babble about "Penn's UCD".  
Hanes was paid entirely by Friends of Clark Park, which has run a  
multi-year campaign to come up with the $75,000 needed just for his  
blueprint. The work was approved and contracted by the City of  
Philadelphia. While UCD is one of maybe 10 helpful partners on the  
Clark Park Committee, it played a minor role at best in the Park A  
Revitalization Campaign; your employer Penn's role was, if anything,  
smaller.


In the meantime, Roundup foes should quit focusing on Clark Park,  
where its use has ceased. They should turn instead to Woodland  
Building Supply at 47th & Woodland, which sells the same stuff to  
some of your neighbors, day in and day out. So if you believe Clark  
Park poses a "Roundup hazard" from a one-time use during  
construction, your neighbors pose an even-greater hazard, no? You  
should ferret them all out and organize a campaign against them.


Looking forward to that tea, though -- seriously.

-- Tony West



On 6/18/2011 11:36 AM, UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:
yes! I noticed this recently and wondered about that strange  
yellowing, because that sod had been recently laid and everything  
was green, and then suddenly the weird swaths of perfectly uniform  
yellow appeared, that didn't follow the pattern of the sod pieces  
-- and this dead yellow appeared after plenty of rain had just  
fallen. and what's so odd is that when you look at it from above,  
you see perfectly green patches of grass right next to patches of  
completely dead yellow grass -- it's not even a gradual shift...


also, no dandelions or clover, from what I can see from the bridge...

so roundup is causing that?

seems consistent with the practice of applying roundup at the  
beginning of new landscaping operations; the stouffer triangle on  
woodland walk is also relatively recent (just last year?)



- - - - -


if penn's ucd is indeed resorting to poisons, that is inconsistent  
with penn's stated commitment to sustainability:


http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/


perhaps neighbors can investigate whether or not penn's ucd is  
aware of harvard, and look into organic compost teas for our clark  
park -- I haven't heard mention of this compost tea in this  
discussion, I first heard about it on this old house:


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html



..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN




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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Wilma de Soto]

Actually, I am getting a bit muddled following this discussion thread.  If
the Friends of Clark Park don't really have any say or input as to what
happens in Clark Park whether its plantings or chemicals used in the park,
for what reason do they exist?

The Fairmount Park System is one of the best in the country and has worked
hard to maintained our vast system of city parks.  If the City and Park
Commission are making the decisions for Clark Park and not FOCP along with
Penn and the UCD, why is an organization such as FOCP deemed necessary?  I
am not trying to be funny, but I really don't get it.

It has been my experience that the various and sundry "Friends of..."
groups in UC have been a huge part of the gentrification drive in the
neighborhood and tend to set the agenda for various public and private
projects to transform use of these spaces as they see fit and for whom
they deem fit in the name of the community, which they do not actually
represent.  

I say this because if they are truly accountable to the community,
questions put forth in good faith to the leaders of these organizations by
concerned neighbors should be answered in good faith without spin or
rancor.

Either the FOCP knew about the use of this chemical and how the park would
be revamped and were in on the decisions with the other entities or they
didn't.  If they didn't what purpose do they serve? There is FAR too much
protesting of innocence from their end.  It's quite confusing and I
usually follow things without getting muddled.

On 6/18/11 9:29 PM, "Richard Conrad"  wrote:

>
>
>On Jun 18, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Anthony West wrote:
>
>> a foolish error...  when you babble about...
>
>
>[UC] Tony West's 'criticism' burning is visible!
>
>
>You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
>list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
>.



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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Richard Conrad]

On Jun 18, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Anthony West wrote:

> a foolish error...  when you babble about...


[UC] Tony West's 'criticism' burning is visible!


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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

Yep. So is it good news to you that your employer isn't actually doing 
this -- or is it bad news? I can't tell. Which do you prefer, Ray: the 
lie or the truth?


--Tony West



UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:
if penn's ucd is indeed resorting to poisons, that is inconsistent 
with penn's stated commitment to sustainability:


 http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/





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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:
if penn's ucd is indeed resorting to poisons, that is inconsistent with 
penn's stated commitment to sustainability:


 http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/






On 6/10/11, Frank L. Chance  wrote:


Fourth, the Friends of
Clark Park have never applied any chemicals to the park--they have
been applied by contractors hired by the owners of the Park (the City
of Philadelphia) or by the University City District through their
agreements with the City of Philadelphia.




..
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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Anthony West]

Brian Hanes, the landscape architect who designed this project, who 
lives in Cedar Park, said this was caused by a patch of dry weather. 
Grass naturally goes dormant -- and yellows -- during droughts. And 
indeed, after last night's heavy rain, much of that yellowing had 
re-greened today.


But the sod is not a monoculture. It contains a mix of different 
species, which may react differently in specific locations.


Hanes is the professional in charge, and he doesn't think Roundup is 
causing this phenomenon. For us laymen, this makes sense as well. 
Roundup was applied evenly across the park, so it shouldn't cause patchy 
damage.


Hanes emphasized that newly-aid sod is still fragile. It needs to be 
babied during its first year. Park-lovers will be working to spread that 
word. Ray (that's "University Citoyen's" real name, for newcomers), if 
you want to organize an organic-compost movement for the park, that 
would be wonderful! Please coordinate with Friends of Clark Park and 
we'll explore if this is workable.


Dandelions or clover were not included in the new sod which was laid 
down, so it's unlikely you'd expect to see them this soon. Don't worry, 
all you weed-lovers, they'll enter soon enough by themselves; you don't 
need to spend half a mill to plant them.


You repeat a foolish error, Ray, when you babble about "Penn's UCD". 
Hanes was paid entirely by Friends of Clark Park, which has run a 
multi-year campaign to come up with the $75,000 needed just for his 
blueprint. The work was approved and contracted by the City of 
Philadelphia. While UCD is one of maybe 10 helpful partners on the Clark 
Park Committee, it played a minor role at best in the Park A 
Revitalization Campaign; your employer Penn's role was, if anything, 
smaller.


In the meantime, Roundup foes should quit focusing on Clark Park, where 
its use has ceased. They should turn instead to Woodland Building Supply 
at 47th & Woodland, which sells the same stuff to some of your 
neighbors, day in and day out. So if you believe Clark Park poses a 
"Roundup hazard" from a one-time use during construction, your neighbors 
pose an even-greater hazard, no? You should ferret them all out and 
organize a campaign against them.


Looking forward to that tea, though -- seriously.

-- Tony West



On 6/18/2011 11:36 AM, UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:
yes! I noticed this recently and wondered about that strange 
yellowing, because that sod had been recently laid and everything was 
green, and then suddenly the weird swaths of perfectly uniform yellow 
appeared, that didn't follow the pattern of the sod pieces -- and this 
dead yellow appeared after plenty of rain had just fallen. and what's 
so odd is that when you look at it from above, you see perfectly green 
patches of grass right next to patches of completely dead yellow grass 
-- it's not even a gradual shift...


also, no dandelions or clover, from what I can see from the bridge...

so roundup is causing that?

seems consistent with the practice of applying roundup at the 
beginning of new landscaping operations; the stouffer triangle on 
woodland walk is also relatively recent (just last year?)



- - - - -


if penn's ucd is indeed resorting to poisons, that is inconsistent 
with penn's stated commitment to sustainability:


 http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/


perhaps neighbors can investigate whether or not penn's ucd is aware 
of harvard, and look into organic compost teas for our clark park -- I 
haven't heard mention of this compost tea in this discussion, I first 
heard about it on this old house:


 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html



..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN




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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Glenn]

Yes, I was at Harvard Yard a couple weeks ago and the soil and plants 
look much healthier than Clark Park!


Penn did copy the new chair scheme in Clark Park from Harvard Yard.  But 
the new Clark Park chairs are painted the same bright orange that poor 
people must wear on the UCD chain gang.  (Harvard's chairs are 
multi-colored.)


These orange chairs have "Property of Clark Park" stamped on them much 
like the jumpsuits say "Property of Community Court."  For the people 
who have been harassed over the past couple years by bike cops, these 
orange chairs send a chilling psychological reminder:  Keep out or you 
will be jailed!



And yes, that bizarre yellow lawn is consistent with the consumer 
complaints of "burning" with roundup use.   That Walnut St. site is the 
most extensive, if people want to check out these chemical burns.


Glenn

On 6/18/2011 12:02 PM, UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:

UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:
perhaps neighbors can investigate whether or not penn's ucd is aware 
of harvard, and look into organic compost teas for our clark park -- 
I haven't heard mention of this compost tea in this discussion, I 
first heard about it on this old house:


 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html



or, closer to home:


http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/grd/2413917807.html



http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/greenfund.html#morris3


http://philadelphiagreen.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/compost-week-striking-a-balance/ 






..
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02:34:00

Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN wrote:
perhaps neighbors can investigate whether or not penn's ucd is aware of 
harvard, and look into organic compost teas for our clark park -- I 
haven't heard mention of this compost tea in this discussion, I first 
heard about it on this old house:


 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html



or, closer to home:


http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/grd/2413917807.html



http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/greenfund.html#morris3



http://philadelphiagreen.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/compost-week-striking-a-balance/





..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN
























































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Re: [UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

Glenn wrote:
And if you look 
down from Walnut St just east of WXPN, almost the entire Frankenstein 
lawn adjacent the new parking lot construction has the same yellowing.




yes! I noticed this recently and wondered about that strange 
yellowing, because that sod had been recently laid and 
everything was green, and then suddenly the weird swaths of 
perfectly uniform yellow appeared, that didn't follow the 
pattern of the sod pieces -- and this dead yellow appeared 
after plenty of rain had just fallen. and what's so odd is 
that when you look at it from above, you see perfectly green 
patches of grass right next to patches of completely dead 
yellow grass -- it's not even a gradual shift...


also, no dandelions or clover, from what I can see from the 
bridge...


so roundup is causing that?

seems consistent with the practice of applying roundup at 
the beginning of new landscaping operations; the stouffer 
triangle on woodland walk is also relatively recent (just 
last year?)



- - - - -


if penn's ucd is indeed resorting to poisons, that is 
inconsistent with penn's stated commitment to sustainability:


 http://www.upenn.edu/sustainability/


perhaps neighbors can investigate whether or not penn's ucd 
is aware of harvard, and look into organic compost teas for 
our clark park -- I haven't heard mention of this compost 
tea in this discussion, I first heard about it on this old 
house:


 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html



..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN
























































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[UC] RoundUp burning is visible

[Glenn]

When I reported the RoundUp use in Clark Park before the fence went up, 
I also investigated the landscape company that the secret partnership 
was using at the time.  The consumer complaints largely focused on what 
was often called "burning."  (There was a lawsuit brought on this basis 
in either NJ or DE)



You can see this yellowing of a large portion of the Frankenstein grass 
just south of the huge gravel pit in Park A.  You can also see this at 
Stouffer triangle on Woodland walk between 38 and 37th.  And if you look 
down from Walnut St just east of WXPN, almost the entire Frankenstein 
lawn adjacent the new parking lot construction has the same yellowing.



The workers who spread this stuff are told the same pack of lies about 
safety and appear to use even greater doses than the Monsanto 
guidelines.  It appears the business theory is to make sure that all 
dandelion and flowering plants are killed with the first dose and the 
company is not called back for a 2nd treatment.  (The worker who I 
recently witnessed in the park was literally  drenching the tree roots 
in Clark Park.  The boss, who identified the poison as roundup, 
immediately told me that RoundUp is safe.)


If you walk around Penn campus, you will see the same Frankenstein grass 
as we have in Clark Park devoid of all other plant species.


This RoundUp seems to be deployed in city parks which have had the city 
workers replaced by special service districts, so the city will claim 
ignorance and no responsibility.


My reply to Mary won't go through to the list, so I will need to retype 
and send my view of the role and culpability of the FOCP leaders later.





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