Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[William H. Magill]

On 12 Nov, 2004, at 09:07, Clinton, J. Scott wrote: 
I will advise you to buy the most efficient furnace you can; the 
labour to put it in will be the same for both and the more efficient 
furnace will save you money over it's useful life (30+ years) and pay 
for the difference in only a few years time.  I put in a 95+% 
efficient multistage Trane furnace and would reccomend the same to 
anyone.
Probably the best advice ... by far!
Today's furnaces are dramatically more efficient than any unit built 
prior to roughly 1995, and the ones built in the mid 90s are incredibly 
more efficient than those built in the 80s and earlier.

When we had high-velocity Air Conditioning installed in our place about 
4 years ago, we replaced an oil-fired "coal conversion" hydronic 
system. Our new system was still oil-fired, but A) takes up about 1/4 
the space of the old system, B) provides domestic hot water as well as 
hydronic heating, and uses about half the oil that the burner I had 
installed in 1985 used!  We had a System 2000 from Energy Kenetics 
installed ( http://www.system2000.com/ )
[They are a local manufacturer, based in Lebanon, New Jersey.]
The system can use either oil or natural gas simply by changing the 
burner unit.

Energy Concepts Inc (ECI) of Bensalem did the work for us. [High 
Velocity AC uses 4 inch ducts and is ideal for retrofitting in old 
University City homes.]

T.T.F.N.
William H. Magill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[William H. Magill]

On 12 Nov, 2004, at 16:30, Mario Giorno wrote:
    That's been my usual plan of attack. However, I more interested in 
finding non-fossil fuel alternatives for generating heat energy. Solar 
cells and basement batteries are another long-term avenue I'm looking 
into. I've also found solar-powered attic fans. Another thing the 
oncoming winter has me thinking of is better insulation such as 
replacement windows, window shrink-wrap insulation ala Scotch or 3M, 
better insulation of electrical wall sockets and floor plates, heavy 
drapes, etc.
Solar is still almost an order of magnitude more expensive than any 
fossil fuel alternative.

If you want to install enough photovoltaic capacity to power an 
electric heating system, you are talking about something in the 
$30-50,000 range.

Passive solar simply doesn't provide anything resembling a "reliable" 
source in this climate.

Even when you increase the cost of the installation to provide you with 
the ability to sell your excess power back to the grid, (you usually 
only have excess in the summer), and you manage to land one of the 
existing Solar Grants, the "payback" time with existing solar 
photovoltaic technology is well over 25 years for these large systems.

Photovoltaic efficiencies have only been increasing about 1% a year 
over the last 10 years or so, but those increases haven't resulted in 
cheaper technology, only more expensive.  The last time I checked about 
2 years ago, the current mass-market (i.e. affordable) photovoltaics 
were only about 14% efficient while Lab based stuff was around 18%.

There will undoubtedly be a "breakthrough," either in manufacturing or 
conversion efficiencies, but nobody is willing to guess when.

The best news for Photovotaics in recent years has been the price of 
oil pushing towards $60 per barrel.  Previously "expensive" 
alternatives suddenly become "competitive" as the "standard" 
(hydrocarbons) increases in cost.

So, if you want an alternative to fossil fuel to emerge sooner rather 
than later, hope that George Soros continues to try to embarrass the 
Bush administration by manipulating the Oil Futures market the way he 
did the European Financial markets a few years ago.

If you are interested in Solar, you can join the Philadelphia Solar 
Energy Association here:
http://www.phillysolar.org/
(BTW, their bulletin board has almost no posts on it in the past year.) 
Look at the Green Buildings and Solar Tour and click on the individual 
buildings to see what some of the installations cost and how much power 
they mange to generate

T.T.F.N.
William H. Magill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[William H. Magill]

On 12 Nov, 2004, at 15:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   A couple of simple observations:
   1.  We have an oil burner and every so often, although we are on an 
automatic delivery system, we have run out of oil.  I have never run 
out of gas.  And when the oil runs out, sometimes you need service to 
restart after the oil is delivered, since you sucked the muck from the 
bottom of the tank into the heater and may need to prime the supply 
line.
There are two answers to this -- One your delivery company simply 
screwed up, and two you changed your "usage profile."

Automatic deliveries are based on "degree days." These are a statistic 
computed by the US Weather service based on the degrees below 65 F. 
(Heating days are below 65 cooling days are above 65.)

A "prototype" property will consume X amount of oil per degree day.  To 
this you deliver company will (should) add and subtract the information 
about your property -- kind of system, level of maintenance, occupancy 
pattern, past usage.  "Obviously," any such system is prone to missing 
the mark pretty easily. Things like staying home with a sick person and 
keeping the house warm during the day, instead of everybody being off 
at work and it being cool; open windows, doors, etc.

Most companies try to compensate for this by scheduling you for a 
refill at 1/4 tank remaining... which should be about a week or two's 
supply.

However, one thing which has become more true. Because of the 
complaints that some have mentioned -- "scheduled" deliveries made 
where no oil was delivered, or less oil than was claimed, etc. -- 
several of the dealers who service this area have, in fact, dropped 
automatic delivery and replaced it with "instant response" to your 
call. [It's like the Philadelphia Police responding to a crime instead 
of preventing the crime.]

As for needing service if your tank runs dry ... any time I've had to 
call for a dry tank, the delivery person sees to it that the burner is 
running as part of the delivery process. Of course if you are not home 
at the time...

2.  As someone mentioned, oil can be a bit smelly, but it is rare 
that you smell it unless the delivery guy spills it.  On the other 
hand, we do have a little leak at the moment after a new filter was 
installed.  I think I prefer smelly leaking oil to stinky and 
explosive leaking gas though.
Other than the spills, oil, like gas only smells when the burner is not 
working correctly.

BTW, kitty litter (new or "slightly" used) is very good for absorbing 
oil spills!!!
["Slightly used" litter has the added advantage of providing a 
"different" smell than that of hydrocarbons.]

3.  I'm guessing (one of our neighborhood experts in everything 
will be able to provide definitive, irrefutable truth on this) that 
pricing is something to consider in that the prices of both fluctuate, 
but not necessarily in the same way, with one being more economical at 
times than the  other.
For about the past 10 or 15 years (or maybe even longer, I forget when 
PGW began adding a "fuel surcharge" to their bills), in Philadelphia, 
Oil Heat has been significantly cheaper than Gas. Primarily because of 
PGW's incompetence. In theory, they should be very close to the same 
price. However, as they say at the EPA, "Your milage may very."

The actual cost of either will depend both upon the particulars of your 
heating plant AND on the whims of the occupants of the premises. Just 
as some people hate "force air" others can't stand radiators. But gas 
or Oil (or coal) can be use for either style heating.

In my experience, if you use gas for domestic hot water and cooking, 
then adding it for heating is only an "incremental" fuel cost. 
Similarly, if you have oil for domestic hot water and heating and cook 
with electric, the PGW "overhead" ($16 a month now, I think) is 
"overhead."  If you want to change from either one to the other, the 
infrastructure costs can be substantial if you do not already have that 
infrastructure in place ... piping and meter for gas, tank for oil. 
Most contemporary heating plants can take either as a heat source, you 
just change the burner. Coal conversions are a different story 
(converting either direction).

T.T.F.N.
William H. Magill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Ben]

Mario,
As someone who looked for them for a long time last year, get to HD this 
weekend to get the window shrink rap.  It's cold enough that they might be 
out already.  Good luck getting some.

-Ben 


You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Marianne Das]

Title: Message



 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mario 
  Giorno 
  To: 'Marianne Das' ; Mario 
  Giorno ; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' ; 'Naomi' 
  Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' 
  Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:30 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat
  
  Marianne,
   
      That's been my usual plan of attack. However, I more 
  interested in finding non-fossil fuel alternatives for generating heat energy. 
  Solar cells and basement batteries are another long-term avenue I'm looking 
  into. I've also found solar-powered attic fans. Another thing the oncoming 
  winter has me thinking of is better insulation such as replacement windows, 
  window shrink-wrap insulation ala Scotch or 3M, better insulation of 
  electrical wall sockets and floor plates, heavy drapes, 
  etc.
  [snip]
   
  Insulation will definitely save you money and is green if you 
  don't go for something awful like polyurethane. Years ago, I had 
  fiberglass
  insulation blown into my crawl space (there's no attic) and, as a 
  result, my gas bills went down about $75/month. I also use the 
  Energy Cooperative for electricity and add a couple of dollars to the bill by 
  buying some wind power: a much cleaner source of electricity than conventional 
  coal or natural gas.
   
  Marianne
      -Original 
  Message-From: Marianne Das [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:07 AMTo: Mario Giorno; 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Naomi'Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas 
  Heat
  
All-electric homes are quite common in the 
suburbs, but they are quite expensive. One solution to cutting the cost 
of heating is to turn down the thermostat in the house and use an electric 
space heater in the room or rooms you use most.
 
Marianne Das
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mario 
  Giorno 
  To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' ; 'Naomi' 
  
  Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' 
  
  Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:39 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas 
  Heat
  
  Does anyone on the list know if there is an all-electric 
  heating system for homes? 
  Mario Giorno 
  -Original Message- From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:51 PM To: Naomi Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat 
  I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com and click on 
  "the wall" where you can post your question. This site is frequented by 
  some very bright heating experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from 
  them re: my old steam system.
  Wes LaBlanc 
  -- Original message from Naomi 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 
  I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs 
  the 50 year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - 
  or some other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and 
  wanted to solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or 
  horror stories?)
  We have a few factors that we are basing our decision 
  on: 
  The Environment - Which has more 
  of an impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner but I'm 
  guessing that gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have no 
  idea what is involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any 
  other realistic alternatives?
  Cost - We're not wealthy. And the 
  house needs a lot of additional work right away. Both the 
  conversion/upgrade and the long term use need to be competitively 
  priced.
  Convenience & Ease of use - Is 
  it relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people 
  actually come to fix it?   
  Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big 
  factors, feel free to let me know what I haven't considered 
  yet.)
  Thanks. 
  Naomi 
  White Dog 
  Cafe   
  3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 
  19104 
  http://www.whitedog.com  
  (215) 386-9224 
  x105    
  
  The Black Cat Gift Shop 3426 
  Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.blackcatshop.com 
   You are receiving this 
  because you are subscribed to the list named 
  "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. 

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Naomi]

Title: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat



If you haven’t already found this resource, Real Goods - http://www.realgoods.com/ - has really good eco-alternatives to many household things. (Composting toilets, anyone!) They also have good books on greening your home. Plus they have solar panels and personal use wind turbines. They also have smaller green products. I was looking at their catalog this morning and was thinking about how else we could heat our new house to be. (They also had the fryer-oil heaters but they looked really messy and I’ve been around them before. Everything smells like French Fries. Which isn’t awful. But then the Pavlovian response kicks in and I get a fried foods craving. And I just can’t live in a house that is going to make me crave bad fast food all the time!

Naomi


on 11/12/04 4:30 PM, Mario Giorno at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Marianne,
 
That's been my usual plan of attack. However, I more interested in finding non-fossil fuel alternatives for generating heat energy. Solar cells and basement batteries are another long-term avenue I'm looking into. I've also found solar-powered attic fans. Another thing the oncoming winter has me thinking of is better insulation such as replacement windows, window shrink-wrap insulation ala Scotch or 3M, better insulation of electrical wall sockets and floor plates, heavy drapes, etc.
 
    I think if I were Naomi (Hi, Naomi!!!) I'd just go with the gas heater for now, because it's the cleaner fossil fuel and requires no delvery guy coming over. The smell of oil is a small issue with me, but getting the tank in and out can be a pain in the ass, if you ever want to switch to gas later on. My parents originally had oil heating in their house, when it was built in 1958. They switched over to gas heating in the early 80's but had to leave the tank in the basement, because it was too wide to carry up the stairs and out the door. The only solution was to eventually chop it up.
 
 
Stay warm everyone.
 
Mario "You're Friendly Neighborhood Mario" Giorno
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Marianne Das  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:07  AM
To: Mario Giorno; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Naomi'
Cc:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas  Heat

 
All-electric homes are quite common in the  suburbs, but they are quite expensive. One solution to cutting the cost  of heating is to turn down the thermostat in the house and use an electric  space heater in the room or rooms you use most.
 
 
 
Marianne Das
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 
- Original Message - 
 
From:  Mario  Giorno   
 
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' ; 'Naomi'   
 
Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'  
 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:39  PM
 
Subject: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat
 

 

Does anyone on the list know if there is an all-electric  heating system for homes? 

 

Mario Giorno 
 

-Original Message- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:51 PM 
To:  Naomi 
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat 

 

I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com   and click on "the  wall" where you can post your question. This site is frequented by some very  bright heating experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from them re: my  old steam system.
 

Wes LaBlanc 



 

-- Original message from Naomi  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 
 

I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs the  50 year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - or  some other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and  wanted to solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or  horror stories?)
 

We have a few factors that we are basing our decision  on: 
 

The Environment 
- Which has more of  an impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner but I'm guessing  that gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have no idea what  is involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any other  realistic alternatives?
 

Cost 
- We're not wealthy. And the  house needs a lot of additional work right away. Both the conversion/upgrade  and the long term use need to be competitively priced.
 

Convenience & Ease of use 
- Is  it relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people  actually come to fix it? 
  
 

Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big  factors, feel free to let me know what I haven't considered yet.)
 

Thanks. 
 

Naomi 


 

White Dog  Cafe    
3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA  19104  
http://www.whitedog.com   
(215) 386-9224  x105 
 

The Black Cat Gift Shop 
3426 Sansom  St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.blackcatshop.com 



 

 
You are receiving this because  you are subscribed to the 
list named "Un

RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Mario Giorno]

Title: Message



Marianne,
 
    That's been my usual plan of attack. However, I more 
interested in finding non-fossil fuel alternatives for generating heat energy. 
Solar cells and basement batteries are another long-term avenue I'm looking 
into. I've also found solar-powered attic fans. Another thing the oncoming 
winter has me thinking of is better insulation such as replacement windows, 
window shrink-wrap insulation ala Scotch or 3M, better insulation of electrical 
wall sockets and floor plates, heavy drapes, etc.
 
    I think if I were Naomi (Hi, Naomi!!!) I'd just go 
with the gas heater for now, because it's the cleaner fossil fuel and requires 
no delvery guy coming over. The smell of oil is a small issue with me, but 
getting the tank in and out can be a pain in the ass, if you ever want to switch 
to gas later on. My parents originally had oil heating in their house, when it 
was built in 1958. They switched over to gas heating in the early 80's but had 
to leave the tank in the basement, because it was too wide to carry up the 
stairs and out the door. The only solution was to eventually chop it 
up.
 
 
Stay 
warm everyone.
 
Mario 
"You're Friendly Neighborhood Mario" Giorno

  
  -Original Message-From: Marianne Das 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:07 
  AMTo: Mario Giorno; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Naomi'Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas 
  Heat
  All-electric homes are quite common in the 
  suburbs, but they are quite expensive. One solution to cutting the cost 
  of heating is to turn down the thermostat in the house and use an electric 
  space heater in the room or rooms you use most.
   
  Marianne Das
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Mario 
Giorno 
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' ; 'Naomi' 
Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' 
    
    Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:39 
PM
Subject: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas 
Heat

Does anyone on the list know if there is an all-electric 
heating system for homes? 
Mario Giorno 
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:51 PM To: 
Naomi Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat 
I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com and click on "the 
wall" where you can post your question. This site is frequented by some very 
bright heating experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from them re: my 
old steam system.
Wes LaBlanc 
-- Original message from Naomi 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 
I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs the 
50 year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - or 
some other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and 
wanted to solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or 
horror stories?)
We have a few factors that we are basing our decision 
on: 
The Environment - Which has more of 
an impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner but I'm guessing 
that gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have no idea what 
is involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any other 
realistic alternatives?
Cost - We're not wealthy. And the 
house needs a lot of additional work right away. Both the conversion/upgrade 
and the long term use need to be competitively priced.
Convenience & Ease of use - Is 
it relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people 
actually come to fix it?   
Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big 
factors, feel free to let me know what I haven't considered yet.)
Thanks. 
Naomi 
White Dog 
Cafe   
3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 
19104 
http://www.whitedog.com  
(215) 386-9224 
x105    

The Black Cat Gift Shop 3426 Sansom 
St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.blackcatshop.com 
 You are receiving this because 
you are subscribed to the list named "UnivCity." To 
unsubscribe or for archive information, see <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. 

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Marianne Das]

Title: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat



All-electric homes are quite common in the suburbs, 
but they are quite expensive. One solution to cutting the cost of heating 
is to turn down the thermostat in the house and use an electric space heater in 
the room or rooms you use most.
 
Marianne Das
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mario 
  Giorno 
  To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' ; 'Naomi' 
  Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' 
  Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:39 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat
  
  Does anyone on the list know if there is an all-electric 
  heating system for homes? 
  Mario Giorno 
  -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:51 PM To: 
  Naomi Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat 
  I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com and click on "the 
  wall" where you can post your question. This site is frequented by some very 
  bright heating experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from them re: my 
  old steam system.
  Wes LaBlanc 
  -- Original message from Naomi 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 
  I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs the 50 
  year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - or some 
  other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and wanted to 
  solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or horror 
  stories?)
  We have a few factors that we are basing our decision 
  on: 
  The Environment - Which has more of an 
  impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner but I'm guessing that 
  gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have no idea what is 
  involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any other realistic 
  alternatives?
  Cost - We're not wealthy. And the 
  house needs a lot of additional work right away. Both the conversion/upgrade 
  and the long term use need to be competitively priced.
  Convenience & Ease of use - Is it 
  relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people actually 
  come to fix it?   
  Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big 
  factors, feel free to let me know what I haven't considered yet.)
  Thanks. 
  Naomi 
  White Dog 
  Cafe   
  3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 
  19104 
  http://www.whitedog.com  
  (215) 386-9224 
  x105    
  
  The Black Cat Gift Shop 3426 Sansom 
  St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.blackcatshop.com 
   You are receiving this because 
  you are subscribed to the list named "UnivCity." To 
  unsubscribe or for archive information, see <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. 

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Dan Widyono]

> 1.  We have an oil burner and every so often, although we are on an
> automatic delivery system, we have run out of oil.

Our tank has a gauge, and our supplier is Haab.  If we get too low too
quickly we call them up and they top us off.

Dan W.

-- 
-- Daniel Widyono --
-- www.widyono.net--
-- www.cis.upenn.edu/~widyono --
-- 

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Kyle Cassidy]

Title: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat





i have baseboard electric heating in my basement. if you turn it up it gets warm in there FAST but also the little spinning wheel on the electric meter outside starts to wobble and then flies off and chops through houses like a saw blade fired from a 24 pound cannon.

-Original Message-
From: Mario Giorno [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:40 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; 'Naomi'
Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat



Does anyone on the list know if there is an all-electric heating system for homes? 



Mario Giorno 
-Original Message- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:51 PM 
To: Naomi 
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat 



I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com and click on "the wall" where you can post your question. This site is frequented by some very bright heating experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from them re: my old steam system.

Wes LaBlanc 





-- Original message from Naomi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 
I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs the 50 year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - or some other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and wanted to solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or horror stories?)

We have a few factors that we are basing our decision on: 
The Environment 
- Which has more of an impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner but I'm guessing that gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have no idea what is involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any other realistic alternatives?

Cost 
- We're not wealthy. And the house needs a lot of additional work right away. Both the conversion/upgrade and the long term use need to be competitively priced.

Convenience & Ease of use 
- Is it relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people actually come to fix it? 
  
Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big factors, feel free to let me know what I haven't considered yet.)

Thanks. 
Naomi 




White Dog Cafe   
3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 
http://www.whitedog.com  
(215) 386-9224 x105    
The Black Cat Gift Shop 
3426 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.blackcatshop.com 





 
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the 
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. 

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[PMUyehara]

Naomi,
   A couple of simple observations:
   1.  We have an oil burner and every so often, although we are on an 
automatic delivery system, we have run out of oil.  I have never run out of 
gas.  And when the oil runs out, sometimes you need service to restart after 
the oil is delivered, since you sucked the muck from the bottom of the tank 
into the heater and may need to prime the supply line.
2.  As someone mentioned, oil can be a bit smelly, but it is rare that you 
smell it unless the delivery guy spills it.  On the other hand, we do have a 
little leak at the moment after a new filter was installed.  I think I prefer 
smelly leaking oil to stinky and explosive leaking gas though.
3.  I'm guessing (one of our neighborhood experts in everything will be 
able to provide definitive, irrefutable truth on this) that pricing is 
something to consider in that the prices of both fluctuate, but not necessarily 
in the same way, with one being more economical at times than the  other.

Paul


In a message dated 11/12/2004 11:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Charles H. 
Buchholtz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>   From:  "Clinton, J. Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   Date:  Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:07:16 -0500
>
>   One amusing fact is that methane is the same gas that comes out of
>   our backsides after certain meals.  One could solve the worlds
>   energy needs if they could develop a way of harvesting this
>   inexhaustable source of fuel!
>
>There have been systems designed to generate and capture methane as a
>fuel from renewable sources.  I vaguely recall a system involving a
>vegetable garden, pigs, and a fish pond which would theoretically
>capture enough methane for one family's cooking and maybe a lamp,
>while also providing a balanced diet for that family.  The idea was to
>give subsistance farm families an alternative to burning wood for
>fuel.  I don't know if it ever caught on.
>
>I've never heard of a plausible plan to provide renewable methane on
>the scale of, say, PGW.
>
>Oh, methane is also a greenhouse gas.  In Australia and New Zealand,
>the primary source of greenhouse gases are cattle and sheep, not SUVs
>and factories.  Or so I've been told.
>
>--- Chip
>
>
>You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
>list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
>.
>

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Mario Giorno]

Title: RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat





Does anyone on the list know if there is an all-electric heating system for homes?



Mario Giorno


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:51 PM
To: Naomi
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat



I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com and click on "the wall" where you can post your question. This site is frequented by some very bright heating experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from them re: my old steam system.

Wes LaBlanc





-- Original message from Naomi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 


I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs the 50 year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - or some other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and wanted to solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or horror stories?)

We have a few factors that we are basing our decision on:


The Environment 
- Which has more of an impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner but I'm guessing that gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have no idea what is involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any other realistic alternatives?

Cost 
- We're not wealthy. And the house needs a lot of additional work right away. Both the conversion/upgrade and the long term use need to be competitively priced.

Convenience & Ease of use 
- Is it relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people actually come to fix it? 
 


Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big factors, feel free to let me know what I haven't considered yet.)

Thanks.


Naomi




White Dog Cafe   
3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 
http://www.whitedog.com  
(215) 386-9224 x105    


The Black Cat Gift Shop
3426 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 http://www.blackcatshop.com






You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see <http://www.purple.com/list.html>.

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[weslab]

I suggest you go to: www.heatinghelp.com and click on "the wall" where you can 
post your question. This site is frequented by some very bright heating 
experts. I have gotten some priceless advice from them re: my old steam system.

Wes LaBlanc




-- Original message from Naomi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 

I am in the process of purchasing a UC house that needs the 50 year-old gas 
heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil - or some other way to 
heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and wanted to solicit 
opinions. (Has anyone done this recently? Any success or horror stories?)

We have a few factors that we are basing our decision on:

The Environment 
– Which has more of an impact? (Our initial thought was that gas was cleaner 
but I’m guessing that gas and oil come from the same base ingredient and I have 
no idea what is involved on the back end to turn it into gas.) Are there any 
other realistic alternatives?

Cost 
– We’re not wealthy. And the house needs a lot of additional work right away. 
Both the conversion/upgrade and the long term use need to be competitively 
priced.

Convenience & Ease of use 
– Is it relatively easy to maintain? When there is a problem, will people 
actually come to fix it? 
 

Any and all opinions appreciated. (And if I missed any big factors, feel free 
to let me know what I haven’t considered yet.)

Thanks.

Naomi



White Dog Cafe   
3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104 
http://www.whitedog.com  
(215) 386-9224 x105

The Black Cat Gift Shop
3426 Sansom St, Philadelphia, PA 19104
http://www.blackcatshop.com





You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Charles H. Buchholtz]

   From:  "Clinton, J. Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date:  Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:07:16 -0500

   One amusing fact is that methane is the same gas that comes out of
   our backsides after certain meals.  One could solve the worlds
   energy needs if they could develop a way of harvesting this
   inexhaustable source of fuel!

There have been systems designed to generate and capture methane as a
fuel from renewable sources.  I vaguely recall a system involving a
vegetable garden, pigs, and a fish pond which would theoretically
capture enough methane for one family's cooking and maybe a lamp,
while also providing a balanced diet for that family.  The idea was to
give subsistance farm families an alternative to burning wood for
fuel.  I don't know if it ever caught on.

I've never heard of a plausible plan to provide renewable methane on
the scale of, say, PGW.

Oh, methane is also a greenhouse gas.  In Australia and New Zealand,
the primary source of greenhouse gases are cattle and sheep, not SUVs
and factories.  Or so I've been told.

--- Chip


You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

RE: [UC] Oil vs. Gas Heat

[Clinton, J. Scott]

Title: Message



Oil 
vs. Gas.  talk about a battle of the titans.
 
Okay, 
to put in an oil heater you are going to have to also have a storage tank.  
That isn't an insignifigant cost, but the tank will probably last the rest of 
your life so at least it won't have to be done twice.  The tank will also 
have to be vented (I think outside) and have a filler to the outside.  
You're going to want to put that tank in the front of your basement so that the 
oil filler truck can reach the filler neck with its hose.
 
Oil is 
the same thing as diesel fuel.  it stinks.  everything that comes in 
contact with it stinks.  I drove a diesel car for years and got used to the 
stink but there's no denying it.  If your heater is working 
properly, you will only smell the fuel when your tank is being filled or if 
someone is working on your furnace.  just something to 
consider.
 
As far 
as the environment goes, I'd say it is about even.  Gas burns very cleanly 
but so does heating oil when the burners are properly adjusted.  The 
problem is that traditionally, oil burners go out of adjustment quite often and 
start burning rich.  This means that too much fuel is being introduced to 
the fuel/air mixture and you are loosing efficiency because not all the fuel is 
being consumed in combustion.  The excess winds up as deposits in your 
furnace and exhaust.  In my oppinion, this is a good reason not to switch 
to oil.  I should point out that oil burners have gotten much better in 
recent years and are supposedly less prone to clogging.  I personally 
believe that the quality of the fuel oil goes a long way to keeping a oil burner 
at peak efficiency but it is hard to tell the quality of the oil that you are 
buying.
 
as a 
FYI, gas (as in natural gas, the fuel that we're discussing here) isn't the same 
thing as gasoline.  Gasoline is refined oil, but natural gas is a mix of 
Methane (90%) and Propane, Butane and Ethane (along with a few other trace 
gasses).  Natural gas is not refined from oil, although it is a fossil fuel 
and there is a finite supply in the world.  Natural gas is odorless and 
lighter than air.  Natural gas providers add an oderant so that we can 
quickly detect a leak and not flip on a lightswitch and blow our house to 
bits.  One amusing fact is that methane is the same gas that comes out of 
our backsides after certain meals.  One could solve the worlds energy needs 
if they could develop a way of harvesting this inexhaustable source of 
fuel!
 
Maintanance:  There are a lot of oil and a lot of 
gas burning furnaces in the area.  I'd say that there is no difference in 
the maintainability of either.
 
Don't 
knock PGW too hard.  While it certainly has it's problems, it is run (in 
theory) for the benefit of the citizens of the city of Philadelphia, not to make 
a profit.  The main problems that PGW has are that it can only sell gas 
inside the city of Philadelphia and many of it's customers cannot afford to pay 
their heating bills.  This is an expense that the city winds up having to 
absorb one way or another.  PGW is also loosing almost all of its 
industrial customers to the suburbs and those folks pay a higher rate for their 
gas bills than we do.  This hurts PGW even more than the loss of 
residential customers.
 
PGW 
needs to improve, but my main complaints about them are administrative.  
They need to update their records, billing and payment systems, they need to 
improve customer service and they need to cut back on the number of employees 
they have to get these administrative functions done.  In this they can 
learn from the private sector but I don't believe in privitizing PGW any more 
than I believe in privatizing the water works.  The city is fortunate to 
own both of these utilities (some cities don't own their utilities to the 
detriment of their citizens) but, as with most city government there is too much 
fat in PGW and what could be a benifit is seen by many as a 
detriment.
 
As far 
as those of us right here in the west philly go,  I believe that we pay 
lower rates than the folks who have to buy their natural gas from PECO out in 
the 'burbs.
 
And 
that's the end of my oil vs. gas essay for the day.  I will advise you 
to buy the most efficient furnace you can; the labour to put it in will be 
the same for both and the more efficient furnace will save you money over it's 
useful life (30+ years) and pay for the difference in only a few years 
time.  I put in a 95+% efficient multistage Trane furnace and would 
reccomend the same to anyone.
 

  
  -Original Message-From: Naomi 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 7:09 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:  [UC] Oil 
  vs. Gas HeatI am in the process of purchasing a UC house that 
  needs the 50 year-old gas heater replaced. We are considering switching to oil 
  - or some other way to heat that does not rely on a monopoly like PGW - and 
  wanted to solicit opinions. (Has anyone done this