datagrid loses formatting when the window resizes

[Matt Maier]

So I've got a datagrid form with a couple fields in the row template. It
displays just fine when it updates. However, if I resize the window by
dragging the borders the stuff inside the datagrid suddenly repositions
itself.

If I drag the left or right sides of the window, some of the first fields
in the template move or disappear, but some of them don't. If I drag the
other side some more move/disappear. If I drag the top/bottom of the window
both fields in the template move/disappear in every row. Same for using the
maximize/minimize buttons. If I click the button that updates the datagrid
it displays properly again until I resize the window.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Matt
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datagrid form not scrolling

[Matt Maier]

I've got one datagrid (form) that never scrolled like it should have, and
another that always did, but suddenly stopped. There's a picture of the
shenanigans here
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22132&p=114336#p114336

It's like the rows and content I'm filling it with are being put into a
layer on top of the default drawing of an empty datagrid. So the content is
there, but the border and scrollbar are attached to something else that
didn't get any content. Is this a problem with the nested groups that a
datagrid is made out of?
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RE: datagrid form not scrolling

[Matt Maier]

Hi Sean,

I dragged both datagrids onto their respective cards and then used the
property manager to make them forms and get at the templates and script.
I'm using version 7 (rc 1) on Windows 8.1
The screenshot is here
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22132&p=114478#p114478
Refresh data grid blanks it out and I have to use the script to populate it
again.

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:28:42 +
From: "Sean Cole (Pi)" 
To: How to use LiveCode 
Subject: Re: datagrid form not scrolling
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Matt,

That's pretty :)
How did you create the data grid template. Which version of LC (I can see
it's on Windows)? Can you take a screenshot of the Project Browser with the
Data Grid Template expanded out to display all of its contents. This will
help us see how it is layering up. Have you tried pressing the 'Refresh
Data Grid' button in the inspector?

Hope we can help

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk
+44(1634)402193
+44(7702)116447
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On 30 November 2014 at 17:15, Matt Maier  wrote:

> I've got one datagrid (form) that never scrolled like it should have, and
> another that always did, but suddenly stopped. There's a picture of the
> shenanigans here
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22132&p=114336#p114336
>
> It's like the rows and content I'm filling it with are being put into a
> layer on top of the default drawing of an empty datagrid. So the content
is
> there, but the border and scrollbar are attached to something else that
> didn't get any content. Is this a problem with the nested groups that a
> datagrid is made out of?
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"start using stack" only working in IDE

[Matt Maier]

Am I missing something really basic? I created a new stack and all I put
into its script was some code to change the defaultFolder to the stack's
folder, 'start using' a script-only stack in the same folder, and call the
only handler in that scrip-only stack (which creates an answer popup).

This always works in the IDE but it never works as a standalone, even after
printing out the path 'start using' is getting to confirm it's the right
folder.

Here are the details if they're helpful
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25730&p=133742#p133742

-Matt
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Re: SGV and FE funding of widgets

[Matt Maier]

If it turns out that you can return a "normalized" SVG path does that mean
we might be able to do some vector operations in script. Like
separating/joining two different shapes/paths, or adjusting the control
points of a shape?
On Oct 30, 2015 04:32, "Mark Waddingham"  wrote:

> On 2015-10-30 10:35, Frans Schoffelen wrote:
>
>> So how do we get started?
>>
>
> Well, on the SVG front things have already started:
>
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/3089
>
> This still needs a bit more work (we're hoping to have it ready for
> LiveCode 8 DP9) but currently does the following:
>
>- Adds the ability for the engine to render SVG as part of its
> libgraphics library (internal, low-level)
>- Wraps this facility with canvas syntax which widgets can use
>- Adds an SVGView widget which displays an svg file which has been set
> on it using an 'svgText' property
>
> At the moment the SVG parser / renderer can cope with multiple transformed
> paths and shapes in solid colors with opacity (gradients are being irksome
> - there's something up with the transforms which I haven't gotten quite
> right yet).
>
> We're also looking into allowing an image object to have its text set to
> SVG, or its filename set to reference an SVG file. If we can make this work
> then it means SVG will be usable (via the image object) as icons in buttons
> and imageSrc references in fields (as well as patterns!). Additionally,
> we'll investigate adding properties to the image object to indicate that
> the SVG should be pre-rendered as an image automatically. The reality is
> that compositing a pre-rendered image is a *lot* faster than rendering
> anything but exceptionally simple SVG - so providing a mode where
> pre-rendering occurs means that SVG used in images will have very similar
> performance characteristics to non-SVG images (after the initial rendering
> step). The goal here is that you can replace stacks of multi-resolution
> images with a single SVG file with hopefully only a small cost to pay on
> app startup.
>
> Another thing we could potentially do is add a 'path' property to the
> graphic object which would take and return a (normalized) SVG path - I'm
> still poking around to see what it would take to do this. Obviously we will
> be replacing the graphic object with a new 'shape' object at some point,
> however it seems sensible to try and see if we can at least add the 'path'
> related facilities planned for it to the engine sooner.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
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Re: [ANN] LiveCode Blog (mostly)

[Matt Maier]

A lot of those could benefit from using an animated gif instead a static
image. GifCam is really useful for that. http://blog.bahraniapps.com/gifcam/

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 6:36 AM, Tore Nilsen  wrote:

> I will share this with my students, both to show them what can really be
> done in LiveCode, but also as an inspiration to think outside of the
> standard application window box. It is always inspiring to see Scotts work.
> Somehow he always manages to make it look so simple.
>
> Tore
>
>
> > 30. okt. 2015 kl. 11.33 skrev Scott Rossi :
> >
> > Hi All:
> >
> > I started taking some past demos, articles, and techniques and put them
> > into a blog which you might find interesting.
> http://tactilemedia.com/blog/
> >
> > My hope is to eventually have all my demo stacks transferred to this
> > medium, and will post new articles here when available.
> >
> > Happy Friday.
> >
> > Scott Rossi
> > Creative Director
> > Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [OT-ish] How regular is pseudocode?

[Matt Maier]

Note: it's page 41 in the menu bar, but page 27 in the document.

I'm only dangerous in Livecode, but the code in Listing 5.3 looks like
actual code to me, not pseudocode. By definition, if it's pseudocode then
isn't it too vague to be used as actual code? And what good is code, pseudo
or not, if it references mysterious functions?

Pseudocode should be easier to write and read since a human can fill in the
missing pieces for themselves. If you had a set of rules for writing
pseudocode, such that it could be parsed into a high-level language like
Livecode, then wouldn't you simply have an even higher-level language?

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Richmond 
wrote:

> IFF pseudocode has rules as to how it should be written it should not
> be that difficult to write a series of routines inwith LiveCode to import
> pseudocode written (say) in an RTF document and transpose it into
> LiveCode script.
>
> ?
>
> Inspired by reading this:
> https://project.dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/games/files/msc/MasterThesisCarcassonne.pdf
>
> page 41
>
> Richmond.
>
>
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Re: Call for LiveCode projects: LiveCode and Science at MozFest this weekend.

[Matt Maier]

I'm building an open source graph manipulation and drawing library in
Livecode. The point is for it to be modular but I'm building it to do a
specific thing right now, so it isn't all that modular. It's still young so
there's plenty of room for new ideas.

I could use help in the more official "graph" areas since I don't have any
particular background in graphs, they just turned out to be useful for my
goals. For example, I'd like to find out if it makes sense to store the
graphs in a graph database (ATM I'm just exporting the array to JSON text
files). It would also be nice to find out if an existing graph description
language will work or if I have to define my own. And, of course, there's
the fun of trying to optimize the algorithms to allow more nodes into
memory. Maybe someone knows how to just use an existing graph library from
Livecode?

Also, I'm planning to make a widget for displaying the graphs but I haven't
learned LCB yet. Someone who already knows LCB could speed that up.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:54 AM, David Bovill  wrote:

> This weekend at MozFest - https://2015.mozillafestival.org/ we are running
> a series of workshops over the weekend using Livecode, and Raspberry Pi's.
> We are looking to raise interest in Livecode, and to attract developers to
> your projects, helping build communities around open source software
> projects.
>
> If you have an open source software project and you would like to attract
> developers, or volunteers to the project, and present it at MozFest - let
> us know about the project either here or off-list and we can present it /
> organise a workshop around the project.
>
> We will be helping to organise a series of online coding sessions as a
> successor to the LiveCode TV project we started a couple of years back -
> but with a new platform and new methodology. This means even if you can't
> make it to MozFest this weekend in London, you can take part online and
> follow this up with regular weekly coding sessions, where we can all get
> together code, talk, and generally hang out around great open source
> projects.
>
> Any proposals or thoughts on projects that could benefit from getting a few
> heads around it, or new topics that you would like to learn about or open
> source libraries that you think the community should / you would like to
> help out developing?
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Re: Call for LiveCode projects: LiveCode and Science at MozFest this weekend.

[Matt Maier]

The focus is on a general purpose framework for modeling many orthogonal
dimensions of information using entities and relationships. When the model
is built correctly the information in it can be queried to produce many
useful things, a subset of which are visuals like business/network graphs.
But for my goal I won't have a use for business graphs any time soon, so
the stuff I'm writing to display graph data is just networks.

Livecode makes it relatively easy to draw stuff on the screen, so one of
the things I'd like to give back to the community is a standardized
interface for pushing graph data into a control and getting back queries
for new data. I'm a new, self-taught coder and I didn't have all that much
trouble implementing an array with graph data and several algorithms for
processing it. Therefore I conclude that it should be pretty straight
forward to implement all of the common expectations of a graphing library
in Livecode. Whether or not it is memory efficient and/or scales at all
well is a different question :)

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 9:00 AM, David Bovill  wrote:

> That sounds like a great topic for a small research group. I'd certainly
> join in. Do you mean business graphs, or general network graphs?
>
> On 3 November 2015 at 16:24, Matt Maier  wrote:
>
> > I'm building an open source graph manipulation and drawing library in
> > Livecode. The point is for it to be modular but I'm building it to do a
> > specific thing right now, so it isn't all that modular. It's still young
> so
> > there's plenty of room for new ideas.
> >
> > I could use help in the more official "graph" areas since I don't have
> any
> > particular background in graphs, they just turned out to be useful for my
> > goals. For example, I'd like to find out if it makes sense to store the
> > graphs in a graph database (ATM I'm just exporting the array to JSON text
> > files). It would also be nice to find out if an existing graph
> description
> > language will work or if I have to define my own. And, of course, there's
> > the fun of trying to optimize the algorithms to allow more nodes into
> > memory. Maybe someone knows how to just use an existing graph library
> from
> > Livecode?
> >
> > Also, I'm planning to make a widget for displaying the graphs but I
> haven't
> > learned LCB yet. Someone who already knows LCB could speed that up.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:54 AM, David Bovill 
> wrote:
> >
> > > This weekend at MozFest - https://2015.mozillafestival.org/ we are
> > running
> > > a series of workshops over the weekend using Livecode, and Raspberry
> > Pi's.
> > > We are looking to raise interest in Livecode, and to attract developers
> > to
> > > your projects, helping build communities around open source software
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > If you have an open source software project and you would like to
> attract
> > > developers, or volunteers to the project, and present it at MozFest -
> let
> > > us know about the project either here or off-list and we can present
> it /
> > > organise a workshop around the project.
> > >
> > > We will be helping to organise a series of online coding sessions as a
> > > successor to the LiveCode TV project we started a couple of years back
> -
> > > but with a new platform and new methodology. This means even if you
> can't
> > > make it to MozFest this weekend in London, you can take part online and
> > > follow this up with regular weekly coding sessions, where we can all
> get
> > > together code, talk, and generally hang out around great open source
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > Any proposals or thoughts on projects that could benefit from getting a
> > few
> > > heads around it, or new topics that you would like to learn about or
> open
> > > source libraries that you think the community should / you would like
> to
> > > help out developing?
> > > ___
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> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
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> > > subscription preferences:
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community DP7 variable watcher empty

[Matt Maier]

I'm using Community DP7 on Windows 8.1 and the variable watcher isn't
showing me anything inside of my array(s). It will show the first line of
whatever's in there in the watcher itself, but when I click the little
expand button to see everything the window is always blank.

Is anyone else having that problem?
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Re: [ANN] Text-file DBs

[Matt Maier]

I can bring my webcam in case it's useful.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 9:12 AM, David Bovill  wrote:

> Paul I'd love to see the presentation - would be great if you could record
> it or we could arrange to do it as an online session with people from the
> list?
>
> On 3 November 2015 at 05:02, Paul Looney  wrote:
>
> > This coming Thursday evening, Nov. 5th, I will doing a presentation on
> > Text-file Databases at the So. Cal. LUG meeting. If you have wondered
> > whether there is some data processing option between the limits of
> > card-file databases and complexity of SQL RDBMS, come and find out. I
> will
> > show how to build a multi-user, client/server database management system
> -
> > entirely in LiveCode.
> >
> > The monthly meeting <
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=25476>
> > is held at Dupar’s in Pasadena. The food is good and the gang is great.
> >
> > Paul Looney
> >
> >
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Re: Livecode all around the world

[Matt Maier]

Maybe you could just replace the words with pictograms so it's language
independent.
put: https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=put

The human-understandable symbols are arbitrary so the fact that Livecode's
symbols are derived from English words is missing the point. The symbol
"put" could be "123XYZ" for all the computer cares. The learning curve for
memorizing the symbols isn't all that much shorter when the symbols are
conceptually related to symbols you already know either. The hard part
about programming is learning to clarify your thinking using the tools
provided. Remembering the symbol associated with the tools is easy,
especially after you do it for a while and you really start to grok how
arbitrary the symbols are.

Some of the simplest symbols in Livecode are "of" and "in" and I still have
to look up in the dictionary which one to use every time I try to use them.
If they were "ng" and "sa" (which is what google translate says is the
Filipino translation) or "od" and "u" (Croatian) or "el" and "en"
(Esperanto) they'd be just as hard to remember.

Seems like it would be more useful to translate the Livecode dictionary
into a bunch of languages than to translate the syntax of the script. That
being said, there is precedent for non-English programming languages, and
even languages based on symbols
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages

I've only put effort into learning Livecode, so when I see Python or
JavaScript code it might as well be written in Kanji for all the sense I
can make of it.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Bob Sneidar 
wrote:

> +1
>
> Anyone who has developed in dBase or it's derivatives understands what it
> means to speak English, and *STILL* have to learn a completely different
> development language!
>
> BTW Google Translate has it "legte x in y -Taste". Dutch, argueably close
> to German has it "zet x -knop in y".
>
> Still think this is a good idea??
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2015, at 09:24 , Roland Huettmann  > wrote:
>
> I would not go further then that, just replacing word by word. But I wonder
> how that would sound in German for example: "put x into button y" -  "Lege
> x in Knopf y"? Too funny. There is no equivalent even for a simple word
> such as "put" or "button" which would give exactly the same idea. The
> problem is that the whole construct would have to be different. Let the
> young people learn a few English words! The profit for them will be much
> greater. There is no way back living with all those English terms
> everywhere anyway. Computer programming language - besides underlying Bits
> and Bytes -  should be understood by everyone. And that was the aim even
> when Assembler started. The user interface can always be in the native
> language. That is enough. And sometimes difficult enough. Or...?) Roland
>
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Re: Livecode all around the world

[Matt Maier]

On Nov 5, 2015 10:32, "Bob Sneidar"  wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:20 , Matt Maier > wrote:
>
> The human-understandable symbols are arbitrary so the fact that Livecode's
> symbols are derived from English words is missing the point. The symbol
> "put" could be "123XYZ" for all the computer cares.
>
> It's not the computer that is caring, it's the programmer.
>
> The learning curve for
> memorizing the symbols isn't all that much shorter when the symbols are
> conceptually related to symbols you already know either.
>
> That I find extremely difficult to accept. If I could *only* progam in LC
in the German language, I would not be here today.
>
> The hard part
> about programming is learning to clarify your thinking using the tools
> provided. Remembering the symbol associated with the tools is easy,
> especially after you do it for a while and you really start to grok how
> arbitrary the symbols are.
>
> What I "grok" is that Livecode is especially easy for "the rest of us"
developers *PRECICELY* because we don't have to learn a complex syntax. And
by "we" I mean the english speaking among us. Switch to pictograms and I
believe you will have killed Livecode. As far as other languages, if
someone can develop a means to have an interpreter understand the
"german-like" syntax of their code, or any other language -like syntax, all
well and good.
>
> But the real key is making the software understand us. Not the other way
around.

I disagree. All of the responsibility for understanding is on the
programmer. The hard part is teaching the programmer to understand the
software. Once that happens the programmer can easily make the software
understand. The hard part is thinking like software. Giving every single
student a unique set of symbols that minimizes their personal memorization
time is small potatoes compared to teaching them what the thing they
memorized really means.

Additionally, providing unlimited synonyms would probably make it a lot
harder to learn how to think. If each student is literally thinking in
their own language then they not only need the software to translate for
the engine, they also need the software to translate when they talk to
other programmers.

A parser for the IDE wouldn't be enough. We'd also need a plugin for Google
that translates what you're asking for help on and then translates the
results.

Those were the dark ages of computing. No one wants to go back there.
>
> My 2¢
> Bob S
>
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Re: HTML5 product

[Matt Maier]

It means the license for community forbids you from applying a
closed-source license to the standalones you compile using the community
IDE.

Since you didn't pay for the community IDE, you can do whatever you want
open source. If you want to close the source of your work you need to buy a
commercial license.
On Nov 5, 2015 10:36,  wrote:

>
> > HTML5 support in community and commercial is identical, except that you
> > can't make closed-source apps with the community edition.
>
> just curious, what does that mean exactly ?
> does the " closed-source apps" thing concern only regular standalones, or
> does it also concern the HTML5 code with js obfuscation ?
> Thanks
> jbv
>
>
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Re: Livecode all around the world

[Matt Maier]

I think there would still be people who want to be able to type "your
synonym here" instead of "sudo." And that would still not help them
understand what sudo does and it would still interfere with any attempt
they make to research or ask for help.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Bob Sneidar 
wrote:

> I see. Well then, let's toss out all the graphical OS'es ever written and
> go back to command line computing. Is seems the great exiperiment has
> failed.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:25 , Matt Maier  bluebac...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I disagree. All of the responsibility for understanding is on the
> programmer. The hard part is teaching the programmer to understand the
> software. Once that happens the programmer can easily make the software
> understand. The hard part is thinking like software. Giving every single
> student a unique set of symbols that minimizes their personal memorization
> time is small potatoes compared to teaching them what the thing they
> memorized really means.
>
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Re: Formatting a number with two or more decimal points

[Matt Maier]

This works with the two cases you described. I've heard that "repeat while"
isn't the fastest option, but it sounded like 6 repeats would be an extreme
case, so it probably doesn't matter.

on testingTesting
   -- 10.26.12.47.38.52.71
   -- 10.26 0.12 0.47 0.38 0.52 0.71
   --   put "80.26.12" into tBlerg
   --   put "10.26.12.47.38.52.71" into tBlerg
   put "10.26" into tBlerg
   put convertWordToNumbers(tBlerg) into tBlergBlerg
end testingTesting

function convertWordToNumbers pWordN
   put pWordN into tWord
   split tWord by "."
   if the number of lines of the keys of tWord > 2 then
  put tWord[1] & "." & tWord[2] into tAll
  put 3 into tCounter
  repeat while tCounter <= the number of lines of the keys of tWord
 put " 0."& tWord[tCounter] after tAll
 put tCounter + 1 into tCounter
  end repeat
  return tAll
   end if
   return pWordN
end convertWordToNumbers

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Alejandro Tejada 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Recently, while updating Ian's SVGL
> to import some SVG archives that
> you could download from OpenClipart.org
> I found an error processing this number:
> 80.26.12
>
> This looks like a number with two decimal points
> but it's a shorthand for two numbers that some
> SVG editors use to save space by replacing two numbers
> like 80.26 0.12 with a single word like this: 80.26.12
> Notice that two characters: " 0" (a space and
> number zero) are missing.
>
> Quickly, I scripted a workaround like this:
>
> Function ConvertWordtoNumbers pWordN
>
> put pWordN into tWordNumber -- pWordN contains "80.26.12"
>
> if "." is in tWordNumber
> then
>
> replace "." with cr in tWordNumber
> if the number of lines of tWordNumber = 3
> then
> return line 1 of tWordNumber & "." & line 2 of tWordNumber && "0." & line 3
> of tWordNumber
> else return pWordN -- unchanged word or unchanged number
> end if
>
> else
> return pWordN
> end if
>
> end ConvertWordtoNumbers
>
> My question is:
> How could you rewrite this code
> to make it more elegant, faster,
> efficient and cover an extreme
> case like this:
> 10.26.12.47.38.52.71
> (6 numbers in a single word)
> 10.26 0.12 0.47 0.38 0.52 0.71
>
> Autotracing applications could produce
> curves as unusual as these.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Al
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Re: MouseMove message interrupted when I change cards

[Matt Maier]

Dude, the mouseMove messages suck. Like it always sends a mouseMove after
mouseDown, whether or not the mouse moved. And there are other things that
either block mouseMove from being sent, or send it only to the original
control, or some other exception. If you try to do anything unusual based
on mouse handlers you'll probably find that it doesn't work.

I had to write my own logic for tracking the mouse location. I just collect
up mouseMove and mouseEnter and all the rest of them and send them to a
handler that compares the mouseLocation to the rects of all the controls
I'm interested in.

This is the core of the logic:
if within([long id of some graphic],the mouseloc) then [whatever]
Just repeat for all the controls you're worried about.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:38 PM, David Epstein 
wrote:

> Among the controls in a group with background behavior I have a “quick
> browse” control — a polygon graphic whose many rectangular parts represent
> cards in the stack.  I handle “mouseEnter” and “mouseMove”, and use the
> mouseH to calculate which card to go to.
> I find that the “mouseMove” message is interrupted when I change cards.
> Even though the mouse is moving across what looks like the same graphic, LC
> seems to treat each card’s representation of that graphic as a separate
> control.  Thus when a mouseMove causes navigation to a different card, no
> more mouseMove messages are received, unless I move the mouse out of and
> back into the control.
> Is this how things should work?  Do I need to move my control to a palette
> so that the change of card that it triggers does not interrupt its own
> operation?  Are there other options?
>
> David Epstein
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Re: MouseMove message interrupted when I change cards

[Matt Maier]

Maybe you could "send MouseEnter to [same control]" when you change cards
if that restarts the mouseMove stream.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:32 PM, David Epstein 
wrote:

> Thanks to Scott Rossi, whose example is indeed what I am trying to do, and
> to Matt Maier, who warns me that there are aspects of mouseMove I don't
> quite understand.
> In trying to see why Scott's example works and mine does not, I discovered
> that my "mouseleave" handler seemed to be the problem.  If I have "on
> mouseleave, go card 1, end mouse leave" in my script, then the mouseMove
> message stops firing after it triggers one change of card, perhaps because
> that change of card makes LC think I have "left" the control my mouse was
> moving in.  (But why does it not still detect a "mousemove" on that same
> control on the card I have moved to?  It seems like mouseMove doesn't start
> reporting unless there has been a "mouseEnter" event, and with my change of
> card my mouse did not enter the control because it was already in it).
> Adding my mouseLeave handler to Scott's script won't show this unless I
> also change the points of his polygon so that it is a single rectangle
> rather than 3 non-adjacent rectangles.  With his polygon, the mouse really
> is "leaving" and then re-entering the polygon when it moves from one
> rectangle to the next; so that on each change of card there is a new
> mouseEnter event that restarts the mouseMove message stream.
> I tried Matt’s idea of catching all mouseMoves, but still had problems.
> So I have placed the entire “quick browse” diagram in a separate palette,
> where mouseMove is not bothered by card changes in the main stack.
> David Epstein
>
>
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Re: html->array

[Matt Maier]

I imagine the problem isn't storing it, but rather dealing with all the
possible exceptions to proper html.

Perhaps you could pass it through some kind of html fixer. I found a half
dozen websites and an open source project with one Google search
http://tidy.sourceforge.net/
On Nov 14, 2015 06:50, "Mike Kerner"  wrote:

> Has anyone embarked on parsing out a web page?  I would think the best
> thing to do would be to encode it as an array, but I'm open to other ideas.
>
> My scraper is straining.  I need to try something different...
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
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Re: Rip off and recreate

[Matt Maier]

How things work isn't protected by copyright. So if you create it from
scratch, but don't use the same text/images, you've got your own copyright
protection. Then, as long as you don't use anything trademarked or
recognizable (like Mickey Mouse) you won't be infringing anything. And if
it's non -commercial it's hard to justify damages. Worst case someone says
to stop distributing it, so you could take it down, but keep using it
privately. And all that is only if anyone notices it in the first place.
On Nov 15, 2015 12:38, "Richmond"  wrote:

> LiveCode is ideal for this sort of thing:
>
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=25881
>
> How much one is breaking any sorts of laws or moral norms
> is a different question.
>
> Certainly I have no intention of making any profit out of this.
>
> Richmond.
>
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Re: Google App Streaming

[Matt Maier]

It's not an existential crisis. It's just the pendulum swinging back and
forth between centralized and distributed organization. Each style has its
pros/cons and people make a lot more money off of switching between them
than just settling on a happy medium. Neither style will ever take over
entirely, or for long.
On Nov 30, 2015 08:40, "Bob Sneidar"  wrote:

> The day that local apps die is the day we will all be paying through the
> nose for the "right" to use our own devices. And we will continue to pay
> too, because everything will be a subscription. It's already started, and
> while prices are not currently overwhelming, it's my belief that this is
> because there are still locally installed alternatives available.
>
> God help us the day all apps are streamed.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Nov 28, 2015, at 16:25 , Kaveh Bazargan <
> ka...@rivervalleytechnologies.com> wrote:
> >
> > I thought this might be of interest regarding HTML and LiveCode:
> >
> > http://bit.ly/1IqvVO6
> >
> > --
> > Kaveh Bazargan
> > Director
> > River Valley Technologies
> > @kaveh1000
> > +44 7771 824 111
> > www.rivervalleytechnologies.com
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Re: sorting words ?

[Matt Maier]

The first line in the doc here is "Use the *sort container* command to
shuffle the order of lines  or items
 in a container"
http://docs.runrev.com/Command/sort-container

Do you could use something like this:

get "4 6 2 8 5"
replace " " with "," in it
sort the items of it ascending numeric
replace "," with " " in it

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM,  wrote:

> Hi list
> Just a quick question; the following returns a compilation error :
>get "4 6 2 8 5"
>sort words of it ascending numeric
>
> Is it because the sort function doesn't apply to words, or am I missing
> something ?
>
> Thanks
> jbv
>
>
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tracking down freeze based on timing, maybe?

[Matt Maier]

I can make my program freeze if I click the trackpad button really fast.

If I click the button down, then wait, then up, it doesn't freeze. I used a
log to find out all of the handlers it got through before it froze. Most of
the time it logs through all of the related handlers and then freezes up
after they're all done, but every now and then it stops logging in the
middle of a handler.

So I suspect that whatever's causing the freeze might be something
happening either in parallel with my handlers, or something my handlers
leave behind that eventually (after they end) builds up until it causes a
freeze.

The sequence is basically:
some mouse message
- handler 1
-- handler 2
- handler 1
end mouse message

Any suggestions for tracking down what's causing the freeze? It's not
happening inside of the handlers I wrote. Instead it's happening after all
of my handlers are finished, and then only if I click the button as fast as
possible instead of slowly down-up.
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Re: tracking down freeze based on timing, maybe?

[Matt Maier]

Yeah, there's a lot happening so I can't paste it into an email.

Does Livecode have any kind of logging built into it? Maybe something that
shows what it was doing when it froze? The logging I add to my handlers
only lets me know what's NOT causing the freeze. My logs show all of my
handlers exiting and no new ones starting when everything locks up.

 Is there a way for something a handler was doing to hang around after the
handler ends and kind of stack up?

I tried putting get flushEvents("all") at several points in the execution
path but it didn't make a difference.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Scott Rossi 
wrote:

> Without knowing what's happening in your handlers, there's not really any
> way to guess at what might be going on, but you might try using the
> flushEvents function to ignore extra or unwanted click events.
>
> Dated looking doc reference here:
> http://docs.runrev.com/Function/flushEvents
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
> > On Dec 13, 2015, at 9:23 AM, Matt Maier  wrote:
> >
> > I can make my program freeze if I click the trackpad button really fast.
> >
> > If I click the button down, then wait, then up, it doesn't freeze. I
> used a
> > log to find out all of the handlers it got through before it froze. Most
> of
> > the time it logs through all of the related handlers and then freezes up
> > after they're all done, but every now and then it stops logging in the
> > middle of a handler.
> >
> > So I suspect that whatever's causing the freeze might be something
> > happening either in parallel with my handlers, or something my handlers
> > leave behind that eventually (after they end) builds up until it causes a
> > freeze.
> >
> > The sequence is basically:
> > some mouse message
> > - handler 1
> > -- handler 2
> > - handler 1
> > end mouse message
> >
> > Any suggestions for tracking down what's causing the freeze? It's not
> > happening inside of the handlers I wrote. Instead it's happening after
> all
> > of my handlers are finished, and then only if I click the button as fast
> as
> > possible instead of slowly down-up.
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Re: tracking down freeze based on timing, maybe?

[Matt Maier]

Maybe I'm using it wrong? When the IDE freezes so does the flight recorder.
I think it's automatically scrolling to the most recent messages, so I can
see what was logged last through the locked up "haze" but I can't see
anything else or save it.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> This may help:
> http://fourthworld.net/revnet/devolution/4W_FlightRecorder.livecode.gz
>
>
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
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Re: tracking down freeze based on timing, maybe?

[Matt Maier]

It starts with a mouseMove handler, which is where it returns after stuff
has happened.

One of several options is followed by a freeze. I setup a little handler to
log the seconds every x milliseconds after that. Nothing is happening a
split second after the script returns to the mouseMove handler. It's like
whatever's hanging up the application is outside of all the stuff I wrote,
so I'm not sure how to dig into it.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Matt Maier  wrote:

> Maybe I'm using it wrong? When the IDE freezes so does the flight
> recorder. I think it's automatically scrolling to the most recent messages,
> so I can see what was logged last through the locked up "haze" but I can't
> see anything else or save it.
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Richard Gaskin <
> ambassa...@fourthworld.com> wrote:
>
>> This may help:
>> http://fourthworld.net/revnet/devolution/4W_FlightRecorder.livecode.gz
>>
>>
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
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Re: tracking down freeze based on timing, maybe?

[Matt Maier]

I tried the sBusy idea. The log showed that it's blocking a few mouse
messages, but the vast majority seem to have happened when sBusy was false
anyway.

Something else at least changed the behavior. I switched a handler call to
"send [handler] to me in 50 milliseconds" and that allowed me to click as
fast as I could manage without causing a freeze. It still froze a couple
times when I was doing something else, but for the most part it's not
freezing.

It looks like the combination is at least resolving the worst of the
effect. Still not sure what root cause is.

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:47 AM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:

> On 12/13/2015 10:00 PM, Matt Maier wrote:
>
>> It starts with a mouseMove handler, which is where it returns after stuff
>> has happened.
>>
>> One of several options is followed by a freeze. I setup a little handler
>> to
>> log the seconds every x milliseconds after that. Nothing is happening a
>> split second after the script returns to the mouseMove handler. It's like
>> whatever's hanging up the application is outside of all the stuff I wrote,
>> so I'm not sure how to dig into it.
>>
>
> Mousemove is sent a whole lot and messages may be piling up in the queue
> while LC tries to catch up. Try removing the mouseMove trigger and start
> your handlers some other way. If that fixes the problem, then that's where
> to focus.
>
> Typically we add a "busy flag" to handlers so they don't try to do
> anything until the flag is cleared and it's okay to proceed.
>
> local sBusy
>
> on mouseMove
>  if sBusy = true then exit mouseMove -- we're busy; don't do anything
>  bigHandler -- if we get this far, it's okay to do work
> end mouseMove
>
> on bigHandler
>  -- do stuff
>  put false into sBusy -- clear the flag
> end bigHandler
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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Re: Image Scaling Problem

[Matt Maier]

I was just researching around this idea.
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/7084-how-to-create-a-thumbnail-image
This says that if you want to lock the change in by script you have to set
its imageData to its imageData
set the imagedata of image tImageName to the imagedata of image tImageName

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Hillen Richard 
wrote:

> Hello List,
>
> I just imported  a 500x500px image as control into a stack, resized it
> using its handles to about 100 x 100 px, saved the stack and closed
> livecode.
> After restarting livecode and reopening the stack the size of the image
> was again 500 x 500px.
> What may I do to make the scaling permanent?
>
>
> (Mac OS X 10.11.2, LiveCode 6.7.8)
>
> Thank You in Advance,
> Richard
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Re: Image Scaling Problem

[Matt Maier]

Oh, okay. So if you resize it and then use lockLoc to keep it there what
you're seeing is a modification of the original image and if you reverse
lockLoc you throw out the modification and go back to the original image.
But if you set the imageData to the imageData you overwrite the original
image so that all you've got left is the resized image. Is that correct?

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Klaus major-k  wrote:

> Hi Richmond,
>
> > Am 19.01.2016 um 19:33 schrieb Richmond :
> > On 19/01/16 20:24, Mark Wieder wrote:
> >> On 01/19/2016 10:07 AM, Richmond wrote:
> >>> On 19/01/16 17:27, Matt Maier wrote:
> >>>> I was just researching around this idea.
> >>>>
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/7084-how-to-create-a-thumbnail-image
> >>>> This says that if you want to lock the change in by script you have to
> >>>> set
> >>>> its imageData to its imageData
> >>>> set the imagedata of image tImageName to the imagedata of image
> >>>> tImageName
> >>> Nobody ever told me that, and I've been resizing images, locking them
> >>> and having
> >>> no further problems since 2001.
> >> That's for an entirely different scenario.
> > Possibly:
> > Are you stating that if I pop this in my messageBox:
>
> oh boy…
>
> > ## set the locked of img "XXX" to true
>
> LOCKLOC!
> …
> set the lockloc of img "XXX" to true
> ...
>
> > it, somehow, does something 'less' than locking the image via
> > the properties panel?
> >
> > Because, when I did that just now, saved the stack, quit LiveCode,
> restarted LiveCode,
> > and opened my stack again, the image 'XXX' was still at its resized size.
>
> Yes, no surprise, see above…  8-)
>
> > Please, in simple words, explain what the "entirely different scenario"
> is.
> >
> > Richmond.
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
>
> --
> Klaus Major
> http://www.major-k.de
> kl...@major-k.de
>
>
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Re: Multi-platform development.

[Matt Maier]

I'm trying to put as much of the logic into script only stacks as possible
cuz I want my application to be open source contribution friendly. Livecode
actually makes that counterintuitive because it's so tempting to put little
handlers in each control.
On Jan 20, 2016 12:45, "Bob Sneidar"  wrote:

>
> On Jan 20, 2016, at 10:14 , Mark Waddingham  m...@livecode.com>> wrote:
>
> For example, many document-centric apps will have a 'Save' function. On
> Mac this is typically 'just' in the File menu. However, on Windows it is
> usual to have it both in the File menu *and* as a button on a document's
> toolbar. If the code for the 'save' action is not factored out you end up
> with duplicated code - so it is quite natural to move this code 'down' into
> core logic.
>
> Oh right yes I do that too. As soon as I need to access the same code from
> multiple locations, I will often do that, but sometimes I will just send a
> mouseUp (or call a handler) from the object itself. A lot has to do with
> whether or not the object script has relative references to itself of the
> card/stack it belongs to. Sometimes moving complex code requires a lot of
> refactoring, so rather than do that, I just send or dispatch to the handler
> in the object, rather than go through the nonsense of re-debugging
> everything all over again.
>
> Bob S
>
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mouse button

[Matt Maier]

I used mouse() in code that I've only personally run on my Windows machine.
My friend ran the same code on Ubuntu and we found that mouse() is off by 1.

So on Windows mouse(1,2,3) correspond to the left, middle, and right mouse
buttons. But on Ubuntu the same buttons are mouse(0,1,2).

Is that how mouse() is supposed to work, or is that a bug?
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snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

I need to be able to easily capture stuff the user is seeing on their
screen so that they can import it into my application without having to
navigate the file manager multiple times. There's some good screen capture
stuff already in Livecode, but what I'm picturing is an actual window with
a hole in it the user can position and leave there so they know what's
going to be captured multiple times. Like gifcam
http://blog.bahraniapps.com/gifcam/

There doesn't seem to be a way to set the background of a window to
transparent. There is a way to mask the window using a transparent .png,
but that won't allow the user to resize the window. At the moment the only
mechanism I can come up with is to screencap what's behind the window every
time the user moves or resizes it and display that in the window so that it
looks like it's transparent. Is there a better way?

Also, in addition to capturing still images, I'd like the user to be able
to capture animated images (as an alternative to video). So, that part
would be exactly like gifcam. The only mechanism I've found for that is to
export each frame and then use something external like imagemagik to stitch
them together into an animation.

- Matt
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Re: snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

Mark, what does "the app" refer to?
On Jan 27, 2016 16:21, "Mark Schonewille" 
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Somehow, the website isn't much anymore, but the app can still be
> downloaded. The trial version is almost fully functional. Perhaps this
> approach would be useful for you.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mark Schonewille
> http://economy-x-talk.com
> https://www.facebook.com/marksch
>
> Buy the most extensive book on the
> LiveCode language:
> http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com
>
> Op 1/27/2016 om 20:38 schreef Matt Maier:
>
>> I need to be able to easily capture stuff the user is seeing on their
>> screen so that they can import it into my application without having to
>> navigate the file manager multiple times. There's some good screen capture
>> stuff already in Livecode, but what I'm picturing is an actual window with
>> a hole in it the user can position and leave there so they know what's
>> going to be captured multiple times. Like gifcam
>> http://blog.bahraniapps.com/gifcam/
>>
>> There doesn't seem to be a way to set the background of a window to
>> transparent. There is a way to mask the window using a transparent .png,
>> but that won't allow the user to resize the window. At the moment the only
>> mechanism I can come up with is to screencap what's behind the window
>> every
>> time the user moves or resizes it and display that in the window so that
>> it
>> looks like it's transparent. Is there a better way?
>>
>> Also, in addition to capturing still images, I'd like the user to be able
>> to capture animated images (as an alternative to video). So, that part
>> would be exactly like gifcam. The only mechanism I've found for that is to
>> export each frame and then use something external like imagemagik to
>> stitch
>> them together into an animation.
>>
>> - Matt
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Re: snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

Mark, oops, didn't scroll far enough. I found the link to Snapper, thanks.

Scott, that's great, and thanks for putting that post and stack up so fast.
It's a little laggy on my system when it resizes quickly or gets to around
750 pixels. Is it the same on yours?

Is there a way to control other applications from within Livecode? Like, if
the user has their browser running, could I bring it to the front, take a
screenshot, then send it back behind the stand-alone again? Or is there a
parameter in Livecode's screenshot function to only include another
application in the screenshot?
On Jan 27, 2016 14:28, "Scott Rossi"  wrote:

> I thought this might make an interesting read, so the demo stack is
> included in an article:
> <
> http://tactilemedia.com/blog/2016/01/27/i-was-framed-a-resizable-custom-wi
> ndowshape-in-livecode/>
>
>
> Hope this works for you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
> On 1/27/16, 11:55 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Scott Rossi"
>  sc...@tactilemedia.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi Matt:
> >
> >I have a method for a resizable masked window that requires LC7 -- I'll
> >try to post something later today or tomorrow.  As far as image animation
> >goes, I have a very vague memory that LC used to be able to export
> >animated GIF images, but that may have been static images only.  You may
> >indeed need to go with a 3rd party option -- hopefully somebody else has a
> >suggestion for this.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Scott Rossi
> >Creative Director
> >Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On 1/27/16, 11:38 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I need to be able to easily capture stuff the user is seeing on their
> >>screen so that they can import it into my application without having to
> >>navigate the file manager multiple times. There's some good screen
> >>capture
> >>stuff already in Livecode, but what I'm picturing is an actual window
> >>with
> >>a hole in it the user can position and leave there so they know what's
> >>going to be captured multiple times. Like gifcam
> >>http://blog.bahraniapps.com/gifcam/
> >>
> >>There doesn't seem to be a way to set the background of a window to
> >>transparent. There is a way to mask the window using a transparent .png,
> >>but that won't allow the user to resize the window. At the moment the
> >>only
> >>mechanism I can come up with is to screencap what's behind the window
> >>every
> >>time the user moves or resizes it and display that in the window so that
> >>it
> >>looks like it's transparent. Is there a better way?
> >>
> >>Also, in addition to capturing still images, I'd like the user to be able
> >>to capture animated images (as an alternative to video). So, that part
> >>would be exactly like gifcam. The only mechanism I've found for that is
> >>to
> >>export each frame and then use something external like imagemagik to
> >>stitch
> >>them together into an animation.
> >>
> >>- Matt
>
>
>
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Re: snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

About that, is there a way to save the rectangle that the user draws
manually using the crosshairs? With that I could at least capture the same
rectangle again automatically.

I suppose all I really need is a way for the user to define an area on the
screen once and grab screenshots from that same area many times.
On Jan 28, 2016 12:47, "Scott Rossi"  wrote:

> Regarding lagginess: yes. I can't say for sure, but if the LiveCode guys
> could enable the windowShape property to work with images that have
> centerRect dimensions, this would eliminate the need to do any image
> exporting and potentially make drawing of the window faster.  I've
> suggested for years that window masks be based on graphics and converted
> image/alphaData behind the scenes, but for now we're stuck with images.
>
> Regarding screenshots, WITHIN LiveCode you can capture just about
> anything, but I don't believe there are any options for capturing
> externally other than defining a rect on the screen.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
> On 1/28/16, 12:21 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >Mark, oops, didn't scroll far enough. I found the link to Snapper, thanks.
> >
> >Scott, that's great, and thanks for putting that post and stack up so
> >fast.
> >It's a little laggy on my system when it resizes quickly or gets to around
> >750 pixels. Is it the same on yours?
> >
> >Is there a way to control other applications from within Livecode? Like,
> >if
> >the user has their browser running, could I bring it to the front, take a
> >screenshot, then send it back behind the stand-alone again? Or is there a
> >parameter in Livecode's screenshot function to only include another
> >application in the screenshot?
> >On Jan 27, 2016 14:28, "Scott Rossi"  wrote:
> >
> >> I thought this might make an interesting read, so the demo stack is
> >> included in an article:
> >> <
> >>
> >>
> http://tactilemedia.com/blog/2016/01/27/i-was-framed-a-resizable-custom-w
> >>i
> >> ndowshape-in-livecode/>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hope this works for you.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Scott Rossi
> >> Creative Director
> >> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/27/16, 11:55 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Scott Rossi"
> >>  >> sc...@tactilemedia.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hi Matt:
> >> >
> >> >I have a method for a resizable masked window that requires LC7 -- I'll
> >> >try to post something later today or tomorrow.  As far as image
> >>animation
> >> >goes, I have a very vague memory that LC used to be able to export
> >> >animated GIF images, but that may have been static images only.  You
> >>may
> >> >indeed need to go with a 3rd party option -- hopefully somebody else
> >>has a
> >> >suggestion for this.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >Scott Rossi
> >> >Creative Director
> >> >Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On 1/27/16, 11:38 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> >> > >>bluebac...@gmail.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>I need to be able to easily capture stuff the user is seeing on their
> >> >>screen so that they can import it into my application without having
> >>to
> >> >>navigate the file manager multiple times. There's some good screen
> >> >>capture
> >> >>stuff already in Livecode, but what I'm picturing is an actual window
> >> >>with
> >> >>a hole in it the user can position and leave there so they know what's
> >> >>going to be captured multiple times. Like gifcam
> >> >>http://blog.bahraniapps.com/gifcam/
> >> >>
> >> >>There doesn't seem to be a way to set the background of a window to
> >> >>transparent. There is a way to mask the window using a transparent
> >>.png,
> >> >>but that won't allow the user to resize the window. At the moment the
> >> >>only
> >> >>mechanism I can come up with is to screencap what's behind the window
> >> >>every
> >> >>time the user moves or resizes it and display that in the window so
> >>that
> >> >>it
> >> >>looks like it's transparent. Is there a better way?
> >> >>
> >> >>Also, in addition to capturing still images, I'd like the user to be
> >>able
> >> >>to capture animated images (as an alternative to video). So, that part
> >> >>would be exactly like gifcam. The only mechanism I've found for that
> >>is
> >> >>to
> >> >>export each frame and then use something external like imagemagik to
> >> >>stitch
> >> >>them together into an animation.
> >> >>
> >> >>- Matt
> >>
>
>
>
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Re: snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

What I'm working on now is putting a stack across the whole screen with a
resizable rectangle on it. Then as long as the stack is transparent, or
semi-transparent, the user can position the rectangle over what they want
to capture. When they're done the stack coordinates can be converted into
screen coordinates and the window can be closed.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:

> As a concept, I thought it might be possible to detect the screenMouseLoc
> in a frontScript and use the resulting snapshot dimensions to determine
> the width/height of captured screen rect.  Two problems though: 1) under
> 7.1.1 here on OS X 10.9.5, when executing just "import snapshot" the
> capture is WAY off from the selected rect, to the point of being unusable
> (bug?), and 2) a frontScript doesn't appear to grab the mouse location
> while the snapshot feature is active.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
> On 1/28/16, 7:26 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >About that, is there a way to save the rectangle that the user draws
> >manually using the crosshairs? With that I could at least capture the same
> >rectangle again automatically.
> >
> >I suppose all I really need is a way for the user to define an area on the
> >screen once and grab screenshots from that same area many times.
> >On Jan 28, 2016 12:47, "Scott Rossi"  wrote:
> >
> >> Regarding lagginess: yes. I can't say for sure, but if the LiveCode guys
> >> could enable the windowShape property to work with images that have
> >> centerRect dimensions, this would eliminate the need to do any image
> >> exporting and potentially make drawing of the window faster.  I've
> >> suggested for years that window masks be based on graphics and converted
> >> image/alphaData behind the scenes, but for now we're stuck with images.
> >>
> >> Regarding screenshots, WITHIN LiveCode you can capture just about
> >> anything, but I don't believe there are any options for capturing
> >> externally other than defining a rect on the screen.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Scott Rossi
> >> Creative Director
> >> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/28/16, 12:21 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> >>  >>bluebac...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Mark, oops, didn't scroll far enough. I found the link to Snapper,
> >>thanks.
> >> >
> >> >Scott, that's great, and thanks for putting that post and stack up so
> >> >fast.
> >> >It's a little laggy on my system when it resizes quickly or gets to
> >>around
> >> >750 pixels. Is it the same on yours?
> >> >
> >> >Is there a way to control other applications from within Livecode?
> >>Like,
> >> >if
> >> >the user has their browser running, could I bring it to the front,
> >>take a
> >> >screenshot, then send it back behind the stand-alone again? Or is
> >>there a
> >> >parameter in Livecode's screenshot function to only include another
> >> >application in the screenshot?
> >> >On Jan 27, 2016 14:28, "Scott Rossi"  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I thought this might make an interesting read, so the demo stack is
> >> >> included in an article:
> >> >> <
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://tactilemedia.com/blog/2016/01/27/i-was-framed-a-resizable-custom-w
> >> >>i
> >> >> ndowshape-in-livecode/>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hope this works for you.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Scott Rossi
> >> >> Creative Director
> >> >> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 1/27/16, 11:55 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Scott Rossi"
> >> >>  >> >> sc...@tactilemedia.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Hi Matt:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I have a method for a resizable masked window that requires LC7 --
> >>I'll
> >> >> >try to post something later today or tomorrow.  As far as image
> >

Re: snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

I got a reasonable facsimile of my original vision by just using an entire
substack to define the capture area.

on mouseUp
   set the blendlevel of stack "untitled 3" to 50
   set the loc of stack "untitled 3" to the screenloc
   go stack "untitled 3"
end mouseUp

Untitled 3 is a stack with button "exit" and button "snap". The first
button just closes the stack. The second button executes the following
script.

on mouseUp
   set the cCaptureRect of stack "untitled 3" to the rect of stack
"untitled 3"
   set the loc of stack "untitled 3" to -1000,-1000
   close stack "untitled 3"
   --   wait 200 milliseconds
   put the cCaptureRect of stack "untitled 3" into tBlerg
   export snapshot from rect tBlerg to image "captureHolder" of stack
"untitled 1"
end mouseUp

Apparently it takes around 200 milliseconds for the stack window to
actually close. At least, sometimes it was still in the way, or only
partially faded out when the snapshot was captured. Moving it out of the
way, however, seems to happen instantly.

The snapshot comes from the inside of the stack window, not including the
decorations.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Richmond 
wrote:

> So, I thought I'd have a bash at rolling my own, but got stuck:
>
> on mouseUp
>put topleft of img "border.png" & "," & the bottomright of img
> "border.png" into 
>put quote &  & quote into fld "guff"
>put fld "guff" into 
>export snapshot from rect  of stack "Super Snap" to file ".png"
> as PNG
> end mouseUp
>
> the thing gets stuck on the "export snapshot" line . . . cannot think why
> . . .
>
> image "snapBTN.png": execution error at line 5 (import: error in
> expression), char 1
>
> that stuff about "char 1" makes NO sense at all.
>
>
> Richmond.
>
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Re: snapshot and animation capture

[Matt Maier]

Also, I switched from exporting to an image and just had it export straight
to a file, then set the filename of the image to that file. The behavior of
an image when it's got a direct snapshot in it, and when its filename is
set, is not consistent. I skipped the voyage if exploration and just used
the approach that had worked before.
On Jan 30, 2016 16:28, "Matt Maier"  wrote:

> I got a reasonable facsimile of my original vision by just using an entire
> substack to define the capture area.
>
> on mouseUp
>set the blendlevel of stack "untitled 3" to 50
>set the loc of stack "untitled 3" to the screenloc
>go stack "untitled 3"
> end mouseUp
>
> Untitled 3 is a stack with button "exit" and button "snap". The first
> button just closes the stack. The second button executes the following
> script.
>
> on mouseUp
>set the cCaptureRect of stack "untitled 3" to the rect of stack
> "untitled 3"
>set the loc of stack "untitled 3" to -1000,-1000
>close stack "untitled 3"
>--   wait 200 milliseconds
>put the cCaptureRect of stack "untitled 3" into tBlerg
>export snapshot from rect tBlerg to image "captureHolder" of stack
> "untitled 1"
> end mouseUp
>
> Apparently it takes around 200 milliseconds for the stack window to
> actually close. At least, sometimes it was still in the way, or only
> partially faded out when the snapshot was captured. Moving it out of the
> way, however, seems to happen instantly.
>
> The snapshot comes from the inside of the stack window, not including the
> decorations.
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Richmond 
> wrote:
>
>> So, I thought I'd have a bash at rolling my own, but got stuck:
>>
>> on mouseUp
>>put topleft of img "border.png" & "," & the bottomright of img
>> "border.png" into 
>>put quote &  & quote into fld "guff"
>>put fld "guff" into 
>>export snapshot from rect  of stack "Super Snap" to file
>> ".png" as PNG
>> end mouseUp
>>
>> the thing gets stuck on the "export snapshot" line . . . cannot think why
>> . . .
>>
>> image "snapBTN.png": execution error at line 5 (import: error in
>> expression), char 1
>>
>> that stuff about "char 1" makes NO sense at all.
>>
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
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>
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calling Livecode from other languages

[Matt Maier]

Can I call Livecode from other languages?

I found this, which if I'm following it is a proof of concept that you can
install livecode server, then tell it to turn on from the shell, then have
it run scripts and return the output. That doesn't seem like quite the same
thing, but maybe it's close enough?
https://livecode.com/a-livecode-shell/

Is there a way to write a Python file (or whatever) that reaches out to
Livecode, uses its text processing, or maybe hands it a livecode script,
then returns the result to be used by the Python file?
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Re: calling Livecode from other languages

[Matt Maier]

So there isn't any special standalone option to compile a *.livecode file
into a command line app like *.exe. I just compile a standalone for the
appropriate system, somehow get rid of the GUI, and tell it how to
read/write STDIN/STDOUT?

Is that as simple as compiling a script-only stack into a standalone, or
maybe setting the visible of the mainstack to false?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

>
> > On 5 Feb 2016, at 4:02 PM, Matt Maier  wrote:
> >
> > Can I call Livecode from other languages?
> >
> > I found this, which if I'm following it is a proof of concept that you
> can
> > install livecode server, then tell it to turn on from the shell, then
> have
> > it run scripts and return the output. That doesn't seem like quite the
> same
> > thing, but maybe it's close enough?
> > https://livecode.com/a-livecode-shell/
> >
> > Is there a way to write a Python file (or whatever) that reaches out to
> > Livecode, uses its text processing, or maybe hands it a livecode script,
> > then returns the result to be used by the Python file?
>
> Yes you can write a command line app in LiveCode and read from STDIN and
> write to STDOUT then use whatever method there is in your other language to
> open a process with the -ui option.
>
> Cheers
>
> Monte
>
>
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Re: calling Livecode from other languages

[Matt Maier]

Please correct me if any of the following is wrong.

So in general we can run a standalone executable from the command line. It
will fire up in whatever way it knows how. Normally that means the GUI will
appear and the program will read/write visually. But if the code knows to
listen on STDIN and respond on STDOUT (or more accurately redirect them?),
then all visible elements can be hidden* and just the command line can be
used to interact with the standalone.

* One way is to pass -ui as confirmed by a couple discussions on using
Livecode from the command line, but I can't find -ui in google searches.
Another way is to set the visible of the stack to false. Another way is to
set the location of the stack to somewhere off screen.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 9:32 AM, Mark Wieder  wrote:

> On 02/04/2016 10:28 PM, Monte Goulding wrote:
>
> The way to get rid of the GUI is use the -ui command line option.
>>
>
> Alternately, what I do is hide the stack in the startup handler. Or just
> move it to an offscreen location. That way you don't have to deal with any
> special command line options.
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
>
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IDE stack names

[Matt Maier]

What are the names of the IDE stacks? I'm trying to get the script editor
back onto the screen because sometimes it randomly decides it doesn't want
to be on the screen. I tried stack "script editor" and stack "code editor"
in the message bar but neither can be found.

This isn't the first time I've had to address one of the IDE's stacks in
script. I think the last time was trying to set the colors of the
ask/answer popups, which I think I might have found in a tutorial, or just
guessed at based on what they were probably called.

Is there a way to lookup that information?
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Re: IDE stack names

[Matt Maier]

Neat, thanks!

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:

> In the message box, execute: put the openStacks
>
> You'll get a list of all currently open stacks, and you can use the
> message box to set the location of the off-screen stack, like -- set
> topLeft of stack "revNewScriptEditor 1" to 100,100
>
> Alternatively, as a shameless plug, there's this:
> http://tactilemedia.com/storefront/index.php?page=detail&get_id=34
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
> On 2/5/16, 9:00 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >What are the names of the IDE stacks? I'm trying to get the script editor
> >back onto the screen because sometimes it randomly decides it doesn't want
> >to be on the screen. I tried stack "script editor" and stack "code editor"
> >in the message bar but neither can be found.
> >
> >This isn't the first time I've had to address one of the IDE's stacks in
> >script. I think the last time was trying to set the colors of the
> >ask/answer popups, which I think I might have found in a tutorial, or just
> >guessed at based on what they were probably called.
> >
> >Is there a way to lookup that information?
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Re: Grab Me Fails on snapshot Images of fields which are transparent (opaque false)

[Matt Maier]

Maybe snapshot with a file type that doesn't have an alpha channel?


On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  wrote:

>
> I have a puzzle widget that is made by importing a snapshot of a field
> with words in it, then we make a copy of that images and repeatedly crop to
> each word.
>
> Now we have small image tiles.  Works great BUT
>
> Problem: The original field has a transparent background. which I am
> hoping to keep. And unexpectedly, the snapshot of the field seems to
> include the alpha channel for the background which is set to transparent…
> so you *can* see through the images.
>
>  If you put “grab me” into the
>
> on mousedown
>grab me
> end mousedown
>
> script of the image tiles created by this method… you cannot grab the
> image — either with the pointer mouse tool on desktop or your finger on
> mobile— unless you are in contact with the pixels of the letters of the
> word. Even though the rect of the image includes areas above, below beyond
> and obviously in between the letters… if you contact any of those areas,
> you cannot drag, the image tile
>
> Am I wrong in thinking that the grab me message should be sent if you
> mousedown anywhere in the rect of the image?
>
> I confirmed this by setting the field with a colored background, then
> making the tiles… now you can move them around by  easily no matter where
> your finger or mouse contacts the image.
>
> work around of course is to set the background to the same color as the
> tiles… but what I really want is to be able to see through the tiles.
>
> If I wanted to test how would you do this: set the alpha channel of the
> background of these images to just a small value… they would still be
> semi-tranparent, but perhaps grabme would see them as “grabbable”
> throughout the entire rect?  How would you do that
>
> ??
>
> BR
>
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Re: some AB testing ...

[Matt Maier]

Is that the maximum theoretical value? The actual connections per second
would depend on the size of the data and how much processing it needs,
right?

Also, what is Livecode Application Server?

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Pierre Sahores 
wrote:

> Hi Livecoders,
>
> Story made short : Appart the amazing Lua platform (preferably set as an
> Openresty one), well configured LC application’s servers still outperforms
> anything available around (Websphere, Tomcat, PHP5/7, Perl5, NodeJS, Go,
> Python, RoR,…). In-between, LC application’s server is 60 times faster than
> the stock’s Livecode CGI Server. Using Nginx as the load balancer of the
> same LC app running on clustered front-end servers can make a very reliable
> scalable configuration : 1500 connections for each server added to the
> cluster. In taking care to scale the ACID-SQL backend cluster as attendee,
> the platform can handle very high-end solutions at a fraction of the cost
> of more known main stream proposals.
>
> What the story don’t tell is that the still mono-theaded LC engine don’t
> crashes nor slowdown against heavy loads where Java powered ones does
> (mostly because Java’s heap space shared memory unreliability and the cache
> misconfiguration surprises) and PHP too, because too many unreliable
> frameworks used in front of it (Symphony 2, etc…).
>
> ...
>
> upstream proxy_cluster {
>
> # Test protocol : ab -c 100 -n 5000 http://192.168.1.15/
> #(ApacheBench 2.3 Revision 1528965)
> # LC CGI Server = Livecode Server (community and
> commercial editions) MacOSX version 7.1.1
> # LC App Server = Livecode commercial standalone MacOSX
> 6.6.5 (note : 7.1.1 35% slower)
> # PHP sockets proxy = TCP sockets client proxying REST
> GET/POST requests to LC App Server
> # eeePCU = Asus X200CA 1.5 Ghz Ubuntu 14.04 + multi web
> configs on ports 80 to 84 (see below)
> # MBPi24 = MacBook Pro i5 2.4 Ghz running Apache 2.4.16 +
> Apache 2.0 Handler + PHP 5.6.17
> # MBPi25 = MacBook Pro i5 2.5 Ghz running Apache 2.4.16 +
> Apache 2.0 Handler + PHP 5.6.17
>
> #server localhost:80;   # eeePCU : Nginx +
> FCGIWrap + LC CGI Server --> 25 conn/sec
> #server localhost:81;   # eeePCU : OpenLiteSpeed
> CGI + LC CGI Server--> 25 conn/sec
> #server localhost:82;   # eeePCU : Apache 2.4.7
> CGI + LC CGI Server --> 25 conn/sec
>
> #server 192.168.1.21:80;# MBPi24 : Apache 2.4.16
> CGI + LC CGI Server--> 25 conn/sec
> #server 192.168.1.25:80;# MBPi25 : Apache 2.4.16
> CGI + LC CGI Server--> 25 conn/sec
>
> #server localhost:80;   # eeePCU : Nginx +
> FCGIWrap + Perl 5.18.2
> # + Perl
> sockets proxy --> 192.168.1.25:9578
> # --> LC
> 6.6.5 APP Server (MBPi525) --> 40 conn/sec
>
> #server 192.168.1.21:80;# MBPi24 : PHP sockets
> proxy + LC APP Server-->   125 conn/sec
> #server 192.168.1.25:80;# MBPi25 : PHP sockets
> proxy + LC APP Server-->   125 conn/sec
> #server 192.168.1.25:80;# MBPi25 : FastCGI
> EAppClass + LC APP Server-->   125 conn/sec
>
> #server localhost:84;   # eeePCU : Nginx +
> FMP/FastCGI + PHP 5.5.9  -->   700 conn/sec
> #server localhost:82;   # eeePCU : Apache 2.4.7 +
> A 2.0 + PHP 5.5.9 -->   800 conn/sec
> #server localhost:81;   # eeePCU : OpenLiteSpeed +
> V6.8 + PHP 5.6.14--> 1000 conn/sec
>
> #server localhost:80;   # eeePCU : Nginx +
> FMP/FastCGI + PHP 5.5.9
> # + PHP
> sockets proxy --> 192.168.1.25:9578
> # --> LC
> 6.6.5 APP Server (MBPi525) --> 1500 conn/sec
>
> server localhost:81;# eeePCU :
> OpenLiteSpeed + V6.8 + PHP 5.6.14
> # + PHP
> sockets proxy --> 192.168.1.21:9578
> # --> LC
> 6.6.5 APP Server (MBPi524) --> 1500 conn/sec
>
> server localhost:82;# eeePCU : Apache
> 2.4.7 + A 2.0 + PHP 5.5.9
> # + PHP
> sockets proxy --> 192.168.1.25:9578
> # --> LC
> 6.6.5 APP Server (MBPi525)

create field suddenly not a good chunk

[Matt Maier]

As far as I know I didn't make any changes that would explain this.

All of a sudden this line: "create field stack "HowstrBeta"  is giving me
this error "(Chunk: source is not a container), char 1"

After some experimentation and googling I discovered that it would work
again if I changed that line to this: "create field (the long ID of stack
"HowstrBeta").

BTW, it was the same error for two other areas which created graphics
instead of fields.

Any ideas why Livecode would happily take "create field stack "Whatever""
for many months and then suddenly demand it be phrased differently?
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Re: create field suddenly not a good chunk

[Matt Maier]

A bunch of the properties of the templateField got set right before that.
Then that line (which was "create field stack 'whatever'" and was working
fine)
Then put "put it into tID" which gave me the ID of the newly created field.

I just needed a field created for each node in the network.

Weird that it would parse for so long and then suddenly stop parsing, but
then accept a form that it looks like still shouldn't parse.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

>
> > On 16 Feb 2016, at 3:35 PM, Matt Maier  wrote:
> >
> > As far as I know I didn't make any changes that would explain this.
> >
> > All of a sudden this line: "create field stack "HowstrBeta"  is giving me
> > this error "(Chunk: source is not a container), char 1"
> >
> > After some experimentation and googling I discovered that it would work
> > again if I changed that line to this: "create field (the long ID of stack
> > "HowstrBeta").
> >
> > BTW, it was the same error for two other areas which created graphics
> > instead of fields.
> >
> > Any ideas why Livecode would happily take "create field stack "Whatever""
> > for many months and then suddenly demand it be phrased differently?
>
> It probably shouldn’t have parsed `create field stack “Whatever”` ever.
> I’m not sure what you are intending myself.
> Do you want a field named `stack “Whatever”` or do you want a field
> created on stack “Whatever”?
>
> For the former then you probably want:
> create field “stack” && quote & “Whatever” & quote
>
> For the latter then you probably want:
> set the defaultStack to “Whatever”
> create field “MyField"
>
> or
>
> create field “MyField” in group “somegroup” of stack “Whatever"
>
> Cheers
>
> Monte
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Re: create field suddenly not a good chunk

[Matt Maier]

If I'm following that you think it's weird you have to create an object
inside a group, rather than just on a stack/card, then that's weird because
that's exactly what I'm doing. I've been creating bunches of objects and
never bothered with groups.

A while back I was using arbitrary strings of texts as delimiters and the
board thought that was impossible, but went back and confirmed it was
possible. Livecode devs just changed it before I tried it but after more
experienced people had tried it. Could this be similar?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

>
> > On 16 Feb 2016, at 3:56 PM, Matt Maier  wrote:
> >
> > Weird that it would parse for so long and then suddenly stop parsing, but
> > then accept a form that it looks like still shouldn't parse.
>
> On a related note it seems odd to me that you can create an object in a
> group but you can’t specify a card or a stack where the current card might
> be used. I know there’s been cases where I’ve created groups just to
> simplify the creation of objects on the stacks that I wanted them on. I
> think that’s an unnecessary limitation so if I get a chance I might look at
> what it would take to fix.
>
> Cheers
>
> Monte
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Re: create field suddenly not a good chunk

[Matt Maier]

It didn't. I set the defaultstack once when the whole thing loaded and
again right before creating the field, then had it put the defaultstack
into a variable so I could confirm it was correct. The words in the
variable were exactly what I wrote on the line (stack "HowstrBeta").

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Scott Rossi 
wrote:

> If the goal is create an object in a specified stack, does setting the
> defaultStack first not work?
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/15/16, 8:35 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >As far as I know I didn't make any changes that would explain this.
> >
> >All of a sudden this line: "create field stack "HowstrBeta"  is giving me
> >this error "(Chunk: source is not a container), char 1"
> >
> >After some experimentation and googling I discovered that it would work
> >again if I changed that line to this: "create field (the long ID of stack
> >"HowstrBeta").
> >
> >BTW, it was the same error for two other areas which created graphics
> >instead of fields.
> >
> >Any ideas why Livecode would happily take "create field stack "Whatever""
> >for many months and then suddenly demand it be phrased differently?
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changing the size of the image that's combined with text

[Matt Maier]

This is one of those times when I end up sending an hour just trying to
find out if I know what keywords to search for.

Anywho, I want to combine images with text in a field.

I found the right syntax for writing html that will combine text and images:
lerg
and also that the char reference isn't necessary, so this works

It's a bit tedious to code, since you have to escape the quotes like this:
put "" into tHTML
but whatevs, it works.

Livecode doesn't care about the height & width information that normally go
along with an  tag in html. I can't find a way to control the size
when using imageSource either.

Is there a way to adjust the size of the image that's in the text field?
I'm hoping I don't have to create a temporary image of the adjusted size,
put it somewhere, and then reference the temporary image instead of the
actual image.
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Re: [ANN] mergExt News

[Matt Maier]

That's awesome, congrats Monte and Livecode.

Can you clarify the uses of mergExt? Since mergExt is closed source, does
that mean we just can't use any of those widgets if we want to release open
source, or is there a way to separate them out as some kind of binary
bundle? Can they be used from a web app in support of operations on a
phone, or do they have to be on the phone itself?

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

> Thanks for the love folks.
>
> > On 18 Feb 2016, at 3:50 AM, Mark Wieder  wrote:
> >
> > On 02/17/2016 03:01 AM, Monte Goulding wrote:
> >> Hi LiveCoders and in particular mergExt users!
> >>
> >> Today I have a rather large announcement to make about mergExt. mergExt
> Externals are now exclusively licensed to LiveCode Ltd. The intention is
> for most or all of the externals to be available to LiveCode Indy licensed
> users.
> >
> > 'rather large'... Monte has a way with understatements...
> >
> > Woot! This is great news for everybody!
> >
> > --
> > Mark Wieder
> > ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> >
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standalone loading script-only stacks

[Matt Maier]

I'm trying to put most of the logic into script-only stacks, so I've got
the first handler in the mainstack. It's supposed to load all those stacks
in the list. The following handlers are the chain it should follow to start
logging.

The log works just fine in the IDE, but it doesn't start in the
standalone...at least not right away. If I start poking at the controls the
log might spontaneously start working for some reason.

The real problem here is that the rest of this startup process is supposed
to create a bunch of graph objects, but they're not appearing in the
standalone. The log just seems to be an easy way to confirm that the
problem must have something to do with the preopenstack and start using
part.

on preOpenStack
   -- load script-only libraries into memory
   set the defaultStack to "HowstrBeta"
   set the itemDelimiter to "/"
   get the effective fileName of this stack
   set the defaultFolder to item 1 to -2 of it
   start using stack "software/quickiator.livecode"
   start using stack "software/grapherrific.livecode"
   start using stack "software/filephile.livecode"
   start using stack "software/mathamagics.livecode"
   start using stack "software/displayerang.livecode"
   start using stack "software/easyJSON.livecode"
   start using stack "software/lazydogpile.livecode"
   setupAsOf3FEB2016 -- lazydogpile
end preOpenStack

on setupAsOf3FEB2016
   -- setup the window
   set the decorations of stack "howstrBeta" to "title"
   --   set the decorations of this stack to empty
   --   set the windowShape of this stack to 2868
   set the windowshape of stack "howstrBeta" to 0
   -- shouldn't be necessary forever, but a good hack for now
   set the foregroundColor of card 1 of stack "Ask Dialog" to "0,220,220"
   set the opaque  of button "Ok" of card 1 of stack "Ask Dialog" to false
   set the opaque  of button "Cancel" of card 1 of stack "Ask Dialog" to
false
   set the foregroundColor of card 1 of stack "Answer Dialog" to "0,220,220"
   set the opaque  of button "Ok" of card 1 of stack "Answer Dialog" to
false
   put empty into sMain
   put empty into sNowDoc
   put empty into sNowItem
   put empty into sPointerTags
   -- initiate development logging
   put "initiate" into xX["write"];devLog xX
   quickModeSetup sMain,sNowDoc,sNowItem,sPointerTags -- quickiator

on quickModeSetup @pMain,@pNowDoc,@pNowItem,@pPointerTags
  put "on quickModeSetup" into xX["write"];devLog xX

on devLog pPhase
   -- ! commented out 15DEC2015 cuz logging slows things down a lot
   -- pPhase[write]=append to development log file
   put pPhase["write"] into tWrite
   set the itemDelimiter to "/"
   get the effective fileName of this stack
   set the defaultFolder to item 1 to -2 of it
   put the defaultFolder into tFolder
   --   replace "software" with "logs" in tFolder
   -- ! apparently "this stack" is returning the main stack, not the folder
filephile is in
   put URL ("file:" & tFolder & "/logs/development.txt") into tLog
   if tWrite is "initiate" then
  --  put empty into tLog
  put the long time into tLog
   else
  put tWrite into line (the number of lines of tLog)+1 of tLog
   end if
   put tLog into URL ("file:" & tFolder & "/logs/development.txt")
end devLog
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Re: standalone loading script-only stacks

[Matt Maier]

The handlers are incomplete because I only pasted in the parts that led to
each other. The rest of the handlers would be long and irrelevant.

It looks like the problem is caused by the ask and/or answer dialog. The
first few lines where properties of those stacks are set cause the setup
handler to error out. Other functions that depend on ask/answer aren't
working correctly either.

So I got 90% of the app to run by commenting out the lines setting popup
properties in the setup. I got the answer popup to appear in the
stand-alone by switching a button in the stand-alone application settings.
The ask popup is still missing in action.

Any ideas how to get those into the stand-alone?
On Feb 18, 2016 10:02 PM, "J. Landman Gay"  wrote:

> On 2/18/2016 10:58 PM, Matt Maier wrote:
>
>> The log works just fine in the IDE, but it doesn't start in the
>> standalone...at least not right away. If I start poking at the controls
>> the
>> log might spontaneously start working for some reason.
>>
>
> The quickModeSetup handler has no "end" statement so it may not be
> compiling correctly. I'm guessing that poking other controls may call
> devLog (which does have the right structure) so that's why it works later.
> I'm not sure why it would work in the IDE though, I'd have thought it
> wouldn't.
>
> The setupAsOf3FEB2016 handler also has no "end" statement.
>
>
>> The real problem here is that the rest of this startup process is supposed
>> to create a bunch of graph objects, but they're not appearing in the
>> standalone.
>>
>
> The preOpenStack handler is using the path to the mainstack as the basis
> for determining where the other stacks are located:
>
>
>set the defaultStack to "HowstrBeta"
>>set the itemDelimiter to "/"
>>get the effective fileName of this stack
>>set the defaultFolder to item 1 to -2 of it
>>
>
> Replace these four lines with:
>
>set the defaultfolder to specialFolderPath("resources")
>
> Depending on the OS, standalone resources are copied to different
> locations outside the mainstack folder, and the original handler won't find
> them. You can always get their location with specialFolderPath("resources")
> which will always point to the right place. In the IDE,
> specialFolderPath("resources") points to the folder that contains the
> mainstack, which makes things easy; store the stacks in the same folder
> with the mainstack as you do now, and use specialFolderPath to find the
> stacks during both development and in a standalone.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Matt Maier]

Thanks for that overview Richard, it helped me!

Given option (b), will the entire livecode engine have to run client-side,
or will there be a way to let the engine run on a server?

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>
> >  So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
> > (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
> > it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
> > forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
> >
> > The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
> > at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
> > for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
> > of the blue
>
> We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC
> framework.
>
> But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script,
> whereas multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.
>
> I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and
> mine may not be others'.
>
> As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in
> several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations) on
> Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.
>
> Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps this
> hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that priorities
> are as broad and varied as this community.
>
>
> > "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
> > built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
> > deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
> > be able to stream audio and video.
> >
> > So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
> > other means beside a player?
>
> Yes: let the browser do it.
>
> But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.
>
> There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs
> on binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser specs
> on textual data and JavaScript.
>
> These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed
> for very different tasks.
>
> Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite
> separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and
> somehow run them in a browser.
>
> What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long history
> in which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from one
> another.
>
> Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is
> JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines of a
> web browser requires either of two approaches:
>
> a) Translate LC-native objects to browser-native HTML/CSS, and LC-native
> scripts to JavaScript.
>
> b) Translate the LC engine to JavaScript so LC-native objects and scripts
> need no translation.
>
> Either is a difficult task.
>
> Option a) makes it relatively easy to get appearances, but for
> functionality requires translating every line of LiveCode script into
> JavaScript.
>
> The appearance part isn't that hard:  with a few hours it's possible to
> translate native LC objects into their HTML/CSS equivalents rather
> satisfyingly, with the result being lean browser-native layouts.
>
> But the functionality is not so easy. LiveCode and JavaScript are so very
> different in their syntax, logic, event and object models, that translation
> from one to the other is a mind-bendingly difficult task.
>
> Option b) is where we're headed instead, moving the entire LC engine into
> the browser by translating roughly three quarters of a million lines of C++
> into JavaScript.
>
> This allows LiveCode scripts and objects to be handled more or less how
> they're handled in the desktop engine, without needing to translate
> LiveCode scripts.
>
> But given that the desktop and the web are such fundamentally different
> platforms, neither approach can be expected to be a seamless move. These
> are very different worlds; there is no magic pony.
>
> Option a) would allow us to export LC player controls as HTML5 player
> objects, but would require you to write any scripts you need in JavaScript.
>
> Option b) lets all your LC objects scripts go along for the ride since the
> LC engine they depend on is now a JavaScript object, but it means you don't
> have access to browser-native objects like HTML5 media support.
>
> If one were inclined to pursue option a), it could be possible to take the
> approach Toolbook and others have, in which functionality targeted for web
> deployment is limited to calls in LC libraries for which matching
> JavaScript libraries are provided.  I first suggested this as a solution
> here in 2003, but no one was interested enough to help see it through.
> Could still be done, though, just not by myself.  And while the
>

Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Matt Maier]

That was too abstract and hypothetical for me to be sure I followed
correctly.

In the approach the Livecode team is taking now, is it accurate to say that
the html5 standalone bundles up the livecode engine with any app-specific
objects/scripts and pushes the whole thing into the client browser, such
that all of the (supportable) functionality runs client-side?

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:

> I think most modern web apps you see run ui locally (client side) and then
> use an http-based server API to manage the 'cloud' side.
>
> The advantage of this approach is that you end up with a good separation
> between client and server, meaning the client can be implemented on any
> platform (and using the same code - at least when using LiveCode).
>
> I wouldn't, however, rule out some means of defining server side behavior
> alongside the client side behavior and have LiveCode 'do the right thing'.
> However, that is perhaps a bit further down the line... We have a fair bit
> more work to do on the html5 port first!
>
> Mark.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 25 Feb 2016, at 19:02, Matt Maier  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for that overview Richard, it helped me!
> >
> > Given option (b), will the entire livecode engine have to run
> client-side,
> > or will there be a way to let the engine run on a server?
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Richard Gaskin <
> ambassa...@fourthworld.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
> >>
> >>> So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
> >>> (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
> >>> it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
> >>> forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
> >>>
> >>> The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
> >>> at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
> >>> for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
> >>> of the blue
> >>
> >> We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC
> >> framework.
> >>
> >> But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script,
> >> whereas multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.
> >>
> >> I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and
> >> mine may not be others'.
> >>
> >> As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in
> >> several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations)
> on
> >> Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.
> >>
> >> Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps
> this
> >> hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that priorities
> >> are as broad and varied as this community.
> >>
> >>
> >>> "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
> >>> built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
> >>> deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
> >>> be able to stream audio and video.
> >>>
> >>> So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
> >>> other means beside a player?
> >>
> >> Yes: let the browser do it.
> >>
> >> But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.
> >>
> >> There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs
> >> on binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser
> specs
> >> on textual data and JavaScript.
> >>
> >> These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed
> >> for very different tasks.
> >>
> >> Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite
> >> separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and
> >> somehow run them in a browser.
> >>
> >> What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long
> history
> >> in which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from one
> >> another.
> >>
> >> Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is
> >> JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines
> of a
> >> web b

Re: Shrink substack to same window rect as main stack

[Matt Maier]

It took me a minute to parse your message, so here are some clarification
questions.
Are you looking for a function that's already built into Livecode?
Is it accurate to say that the problem is the controls on your 1200x675
stack aren't coded to handle resizing? (i.e. if the stack shrinks the
controls just get clipped)

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
bra...@hindu.org> wrote:

> Assuming we have
>
> -- Stack A that is set to a rect of 736w X 414h
>
> --  is is possible to open another stack with the same ratio (16:9)  but
> bigger in the same window?
>
> -- i.e. opens stack B  which is 1200 X 675 (16:9)  in the window of Stack
> A, such that it "shrinks to fit" just like it would on mobile if we had it
> set to "showAll"
>
> ??
>
> I made what may be a strategic mis-direct by developing in 1200 X 675 for
> iPhone.. simply because I wanted it to appear bigger on my large monitor
> during dev.  Using ShowAll it runs fine on the phone.
>
> But later I started another mainstack which for which the above stack is
> supposed to be a "module" and decided, that, in the long run... it is
> better to work in the actual native geometric points of the device (iphone
> 6+ 736 X 414).
>
> I may have to refactor the big stack... not a big deal, but I was
> wondering about the possibility of shrinking to fit in a scenario like this
>
> BR
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

I'm still not clear on how the community edition of Livecode isn't
sufficient for hobby purposes. It's got tons of functionality, and it's
free, and the main restriction is that anything you distribute has to be
licensed GPL. But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you
distribute, why would you need to close the source?

If you just want to help support Livecode with money you can always donate
to them, or you could publicize your cool projects to get more visibility
for Livecode and more developers to try it. In fact, distributing
interesting projects open source is a great way to get more developers to
try Livecode. Whereas paying Livecode a modest subscription, so that you
can distributed closed source, doesn't help nearly as much.



On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:58 PM, [-hh]  wrote:

> Really good points, Roland.
>
> Let me add explicitly this one.
>
> Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
> years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
> buyers of LC-related products:
> Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
> Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.
>
> If the company continues to have such crazy pricing strategies as now
> then it will loose in sum: The negative income by people "jumping off"
> will be greater than the additional positive income by raised prices.
>
> For example I went with backing nearly everything in the last three
> years already over my limits: An Indy license, a community membership
> (who of the writers here has also one?), an additional HTML5 license,
> a lot of time wasted for beta-testing. I'm hobbyist, sell nothing ...
>
> The next "pricing game" will force me to jump off. And jumping off will
> mean to jump off by 100%, in anger, not only partially.
>
> And certainly I'm not the only one who works for no money, pays only
> to support LC. The current pricing strategy becomes aggressive against
> this group of users.
>
>
>
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

Okay, I think I follow that. It seems like a very specific case in that you
could just not share the software publically and then there's no conflict.
It sounds like the public use of the compiled software is a nice-to-have.

Maybe in the case that you want to let the world use the software in its
compiled form, but only share the source with a few individuals, you could
host the software as a web app. That way people could interact with it
without ever needing a copy. You could also pay Livecode to host the web
app, thus sending some money their way at the same time.

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 3:59 PM, [-hh]  wrote:

> > Matt M. wrote:
> > But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you distribute,
> > why would you need to close the source?
>
> Because, not always but sometimes, you would like to share the code
> with some people only, not with all.
> And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
> for free.
>
> Code has also an immaterial value.
>
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

For what it's worth, I got the Indy license so that I could release
github.Howstr.com under whatever license I wanted. In this case that's the
MIT license. So for me it's not even about keeping it secret, it's about
sharing with fewer restrictions than the GPL allows.

Of course, I am turning Howstr into a business, but I committed to Indy
long before I committed to going into business. Being able to pick my
license was important to me as a hobbyist.
On Feb 29, 2016 05:57, "Roland Huettmann" 
wrote:

> Well, Mark, I like the word "creative" )
>
> Hobbyists, students etc not able or willing to pay the full fees and still
> wishing to have some reflection of protecting code could form an
> association which would receive full rights from LiveCode to protect code
> in the name of the association, and all members of the association would
> have an internal agreement about protection. There could be an agreement
> that if such rights are claimed by a member then he could obtain them for a
> fee and change status, or leave the association and go for Indy or Business
> license.
>
> If such association would pay 10,000 dollars a month to LiveCode, it would
> need 500 hobbyists and students paying 20 dollars a month to raise such
> money not counting big overhead costs and not making any profit which an
> association does not have to make.
>
> ---
>
> I am working in Africa a lot, mainly Togo, Ghana etc.. There is hardly any
> student able to survive a month, and his or her ability to pay would be
> zero. But it would be an excellent ground for LiveCode for really reach big
> masses of students and developers if we would promote it. A community
> version is essential, but also protected versions are of need. Where to get
> the funding? Aid programs?
>
> In any case, we are glad that we have a community version !
>
> ---
>
> To put myself into the shoes of hobbyists/students in need of some kind of
> code protection: I personally would feel kind of pushed to order now at
> least an Indy license to not loose the opportunity to keep a low pricing
> schema later. It is only this one point which would make me a bit sour.
> Even if it is meant in a nice way, it is a kind of unpleasant feeling that
> now I must decide about something that I - hobbyist - may only need in
> future, or never will need at all, but should decide to pay right away to
> not loose the benefit of lower recurring payments. And then even today such
> Indy license is double the price that I would usually be willing to pay
> just to keep going without expectation of much reward. Just the price
> target - and the future price especially - would make me think a lot. Since
> it may become not affordable for a lot of people in near future, it
> triggers the thought of stepping out now. Or it is an incentive to step in
> now.
>
> So, from such point of view it become a kind of "futures" trading - with
> risks involved when leveraging the future.
>
> Well, there are equally valid other points of view, and I could also put
> myself into their shows including the shoes of the team itself.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 February 2016 at 12:37, Mark Rauterkus 
> wrote:
>
> > Bravo to Tore Nilsen in this thread. Spot on.
> >
> > I mighy call myself a Hobbyists too, but I LOVE the open source community
> > version.
> >
> > Those with extra cash who desire to support the Mothership may want to
> > invest into a new LiveCode feature from time to time. Or, attend a
> LiveCode
> > event.
> >
> > I think the open source business model is splendid.
> >
> > As a hobbyists, we need to be more creative. Sell your services, get a
> > retainer, do extras with the next upgrade to customize, make money on
> ads,
> > sell a book, be a paid speaker / presenter, etc.
> >
> > Face it, open source LiveCode is still impossible for 99.99% of the world
> > to modify and cheat you from. Yake and resell without permission. And if
> > that happens, the public scorn would be bad. The backlash would be ugly.
> >
> > Mark Rauterkus
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

[disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice]

I sympathize with your confusion. There is inherent confusion around the
differences between "sharing" and "free/open source." In the former case,
it's just something people do. In the latter case, it is a legal standard.

Livecode Community uses the GPL http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
This is important primarily because your standalones include the Livecode
engine. Livecode owns the copyright on the engine because their programmers
wrote it and assigned their copyright to the corporation. Leaving it at
that means that nobody else has any right to anything with regards to the
Livecode engine. In order to facilitate things like community, and
learning, and customer development, Livecode is giving you (us) a license
to use the engine provided certain conditions are followed. In this case,
the GPL is a viral license in that you are only given a license to use the
code if the binary you produce with it also uses the GPL (or compatible)
license. Those are the terms under which Livecode is comfortable allowing
you to use their intellectual property.

It's worth mentioning that the language itself doesn't work the same way.
If you open up a text editor, and write down words which the Livecode
engine might happen to understand, then you still own the full copyright on
those words. You can do anything you want with them. So the copyright on
the source of a script-only stack belongs to you. If you compile it into
the standalone then it must be licensed GPL.

That means there's a gray area around something like distributing a
Livecode-compiled binary under the GPL (source must be provided) and also
providing one or more encrypted scripts which that application can decrypt
and access if it needs to. As I understand it, the GPL blocks distribution
of a GPL-licensed executable that *requires* closed-source libraries to
run, but does allow the copyright holder to write in a specific exception
if they want to. The gray area refers to an optional library that *enhances*
(like a plug-in) the GPL-licensed application. I think that is merely
discouraged, but not actually blocked.

So it might be worth asking Livecode if they'd be willing to add an
exception to their GPL license allowing "hobbyists" to distribute a
closed-source library that is not compiled into the GPL-licensed
standalone. That would allow "hobbyists" to keep some of their code secret.
Maybe Livecode could even charge a different amount for that license.

[Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.]

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> hi folks, what is this fuss about?
>
> First : no. The allegation about hypercard forcing the open source path on
> all usage is not true. There was a command to protect a stack ("protect" of
> course!) . And some interesting pieces of software were sold as protected
> stacks.
>
> And it is precisely that positioning which is about to be abandoned by
> livecode and why i think it's going backwards (with LESS) rather than going
> forward (with MORE).
>
> What the fuss is NOT :
> 1) I never questioned the Open Source version of Livecode. it's fantastic
> and needed.
> 2) I never questioned the Commercial version. Again it's great and helps
> going forward.
>
> What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
> tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
> reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
> Hypercard.
>
> Now most reactions are : if it is to play around just don't bother and
> distribute as open sourced. Ok guys.
> But things are not just that "idealistically" simple. Sometimes you just do
> not know yet. And wish to try out something. Because some people just do
> not
> know everything in advance.
>
> And on a deeper level, please, do pay attention that it is our whole
> copyright system which is being thus challenged.
> -- would you find it "ok" that everything you write with your open sourced
> word processor be absolutely open sourced? Whatever you write? even if it
> is
> your next brilliant patent?
> -- same question for the various open sourced "tools" that allow to edit
> pictures, drawings, videos and so on.
>
> The fuss about is that in the present state of the license applicable to
> open sourced livecode,
> whatever you "write" with live code, if "given" "shared" to anybody else,
> then becomes open sourced.
> THe frontier between the tool itself (its modules etc) and the "day to day"
> work you can produce with it have been blurred. Fine if that is what was
> really wanted!  But did we really all mean that???
>
> Actually it would be interesting to precise what rights get open sourced in
> a stack :
> -- do all the media incorporated in a stack become open sourced when
> shared?
> -- what about the copyright on the layout of the application ?
> -- what about the writing of the documentation included?
> -- what about the logo

Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

Maybe they could sell one-time exceptions. Like, give Livecode $100 and you
can compile one version of one app closed source. So many options.

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

>
> > On 1 Mar 2016, at 12:32 PM, Roger Guay  wrote:
> >
> > Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue stream for
> LC!!! Does it hurt anyone?
>
>
> I guess it could hurt everyone that depends on the platform if it undercut
> the Indy license too much. One thing we know for sure is that with the Indy
> price rise being staged effectively over a couple of years since the first
> rise that the company is being more than fair with its current user base by
> giving them the opportunity to lock in current prices for the long term.
>
> Whether as the price of Indy rises a space is created for some kind of
> Indy Lite remains to be seen. However, I might suggest it would be
> difficult to find the right mix of features for it… Should it have no code
> protection but still allow proprietary licenses? Perhaps it should be
> royalty based or only allow free apps? Maybe it should have splash screens
> on standalones? Maybe individual platform licenses? What about a set fee
> per platform per standalone build? Maybe everything that can be easily
> removed from LC could be an addon at extra cost (database, xml, widgets
> etc)?
>
> So many options that even if the company had something in this space it
> still won’t meet everyones needs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Monte
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

Robert, as you conduct your research you should also learn about the
difference between Free Software and Open Source Software. In brief, Free
Software does special things for moral reasons; it is "right" that software
be liberated. Open Source Software does special things for pragmatic
reasons; it is "useful" that software be easy to use without asking
permission.

In both cases, you leverage copyright law. You cannot get away from
"restrictions" and still do Free or Open Source Software. The licenses are
used to restrict licensees from closing off the source of the software (to
a greater or lesser extent).

The GNU General Public License (GPL) is not an Open Source license, it is a
Free license. For reference, here is the Free Software Foundation's stance
on Open Source
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
"...a license designed specifically to protect freedom for all users of a
program."

The GNU has a lot of restrictions because it's specifically designed to
prevent anyone who uses Free software from acting in a way contradictory to
the ideals of the Free software movement. If you want the software, then
you have to follow the terms of the license. If you don't follow all of the
terms, you lose your license and open yourself to litigation. This threat
has teeth because Free software licenses have been upheld in court. The
restrictions are the point.

It doesn't help that Livecode always uses the term "Open Source" when
referring to the Community Edition. This could easily (and does) lead
people to assume the Community Edition has an Open Source license. It
doesn't, so if you're looking for pragmatic terms, rather than idealistic
terms, you're going to be confused.

With respect to your Question 2, the Indy license doesn't have to
specifically forbid a service where someone with a freer license compiles
code on your behalf. You can't build an actual Livecode application without
using the IDE, so if you used the Community IDE your application must
adhere to the GPL. The whole point of the GPL is to prevent "free" software
from being changed into "proprietary" software.

As for Apple, they don't want hobby developers releasing apps into their
system. Apple has zero interest in letting anyone play or experiment in
their closed ecosystem. Android is the Wild West you're looking for.
Or...maybe Windows phone? They might be desperate or ambivalent enough.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> The price rise in the commercial license has led me to try understand the
> Opens SOurce License, although I had always in my mind to keep with a
> commercial license ideally.
>
> And that leads to big surprises. I'll be doing a little bit of homework on
> that.
>
> *Question 1 :: is there somewhere a kind of WIKI place for live code whereI
> could start up open a license subject/page to be amended in a more
> structured and constructive way than that list???*
>
> Question 2 :: In that spirit, Peter TB Brett, it would be a contribution if
> could you throw in the source/ref of the terms & conditions of the indy
> license that forbids to provide the service described by J L. just above
> consisting in accompanying an author in the realm of iOs app publishing.
>
> Behing the great idea of a Open SOurce, it is surpassing to find so much
> barriers being built around it.
> And that does not seem totally realistic and respectful either.
>
> I find it hard and really surprising that such a service is not provided by
> somebody because I would find it really useful. Thinking about it, I
> actually have one project I worked upon that would greatly benefit from
> such
> a service as I just do not have time to dig and try out myself the iOs
> publishing. Frankly it just is not a thing you just do once as a hobbits to
> my view.
>
> On the indy side, i find it very intriguing that you can invest into a tool
> and be so tightly regulated as to what you can or not do.
>
> So far to go into the iOs model, you need :
> -- to do it yourself (if calling help from an indy is banned!)
> -- invest in the tool 1000 bucks, plus..
> -- invest time in trying out things with a stange spread out documentation
> here and there.
> -- deal with mister apple and the niceties & subtleties one regularly see
> in
> the forum..
>
> Mumm.. sounds great!!
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Open-source-closed-source-and-the-value-of-code-tp4701649p4701775.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> indeed.. I do have an android phone!!
>
> And I read the GNU license for good,
> and the FAQ's for good,
> and some discussions
>
> 1) my personal conclusion reading these is that the assumption you make
> about stack files falling under GPL is.. questionable, but.. arguable,
> particularly if there are elements of interfaces buttons so on that would
> link to the engine. And the more intricated these become e.g. with widgets,
> the more linked this will be.
>
> But, if the stack file contains only code, I doubt that can fall onto GPL.
> The language itself is not copyrightable so a piece of code really is an
> "output" of an editor program and as such is not covered by GPL so long I
> can read!
>

If you sit down at a text editor and write a string of characters that the
Livecode engine happens to understand then you can put whatever copyright
license terms you want on it. So, I supposed in theory (disclaimer: IANAL)
if you wrote absolutely everything in plain script, and never included the
engine, you would still be able to apply your own license terms. But that
script can't be interpreted by anything other than the Livecode engine, so
you wouldn't be able to use it for anything. The value is in the engine,
which someone else wrote and allowed you to use as long as you follow their
rules. Since the rules they chose are the GPL, it's safe to assume there
isn't a legally sound way around it. The best you could hope for is a murky
grey area.


>
> Arguably, code dispersed in interface objects "sections" can also be
> regarded as a kind of organization of code and thus treated as output of
> the
> editor's program and thus not covered by the GPL.
>
> 2) are you saying do I rightly understand? that in order to be published by
> apple a program has to be written FROM scratch up in a commercial
> version???
> So that one cannot start up to write code in OS version and later switch to
> commercial  Are there any.. markers in the code?
>
>
The number of question marks indicates that you're working your way through
the mourning process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model#Stages
There are whole cadres of lawyers who live in fear of the day they walk
into work and their boss calls them into a meeting because a random coder
accidentally included a piece of GPL software somewhere in the company's
proprietary product. GPL is not practical, it is idealistic. The authors
consider it a social movement. So it's not so much Apple's policy, it's
that the GPL is incompatible with anything vaguely proprietary, and of
course Apple is crazy proprietary.


> In practice I really wonder if Apple would trace back the origin of the
> origin of a code and make sure it was not "written" with GPL covered
> program. if it did, I wonder what they say about all those lines written in
> EMACS.
>
> To me that argument is kind of "tiré par le cheveux" as we say in french.
> (something like.. stretched out?).
>
> I love my android phone...
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Open-source-closed-source-and-the-value-of-code-tp4701649p4701790.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

Unless Livecode modified the GPL it's still a Free software license,
written and interpreted by the FSF. Calling it Open Source is more
colloquial, and clearly doesn't cause problems in the vast majority of
cases. But, in this case, the inaccuracy is causing the confusion.

It's worth noting that most of the repositories in Github don't have any
license at all. That's not colloquial, that's just lazy, but that also
doesn't cause a problem in the vast majority of cases. Still, when there is
a problem the only way to resolve it is to be more specific.

I feel like it's important for people working through the nuances of FOSS
to understand the intent behind the different licenses. It can be
disorienting to think that everybody is just sharing stuff and then to run
into the seemingly harsh restrictions of the Free software subset. Open
Source is pretty inviting. Free places stick limits on who is invited. It's
confusing to people who haven't studied it because "open source" literally
means open up the source from which the object was derived. However,
"free/libre" doesn't mean make it as free as possible, it means make it
impossible for anyone to ever make it un-free. So the "free/libre" label
actually brings along MORE restrictions.

Livecode picked a Free software license for the Community edition,
signaling that they want their community to adhere to the intent of Free
software. Part of the reason (not the whole reason, but part of it) I
upgraded to Indy was so that I could cast off the restrictions imposed by
the intent of Free software.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > Robert, as you conduct your research you should also learn about the
> > difference between Free Software and Open Source Software. In brief,
> > Free Software does special things for moral reasons; it is "right"
> > that software be liberated. Open Source Software does special things
> > for pragmatic reasons; it is "useful" that software be easy to use
> > without asking permission.
>
> While that accurately reflects the motivations of Richard Stallman and
> others who create and promote "Free software" as they've described in their
> own writings, motivations are separate from outcomes.   Whether I buy
> flowers for my wife because I think she's pretty or because I'm trying to
> apologize, either way the florist makes $60. :)
>
> It's fully possible for others to enjoy the same outcomes without the same
> philosophical motivation.
>
> All carp are fish, but not all fish are carp, and not all who choose the
> GPL are quite as religious about it as others, or see it as any sort of
> moral imperative at all.
>
> For myself, and many I know, the GPL is a purely practical means to an
> end:  a good choice when one wants to share code both directly and also
> downstream.
>
> I participate in many software projects, and some of the choose GPL.  As
> much as I admire Mr. Stallman personally and professionally I disagree with
> his view of a moral imperative in choosing GPL.  But that disagreement
> doesn't prevent me from choosing it myself, or having enjoyed his company
> over dinner.  Vive le difference.
>
> Like the classical Chinese painting "Three Men at Tiger Brook", we can
> travel together even if we're adhere to different philosophies.
>
>
>
> > The GNU General Public License (GPL) is not an Open Source license,
> > it is a Free license. For reference, here is the Free Software
> > Foundation's stance on Open Source
> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
> > "...a license designed specifically to protect freedom for all users
> > of a program."
> ...
> > It doesn't help that Livecode always uses the term "Open Source" when
> > referring to the Community Edition. This could easily (and does) lead
> > people to assume the Community Edition has an Open Source license. It
> > doesn't, so if you're looking for pragmatic terms, rather than
> > idealistic terms, you're going to be confused.
>
> With all due respect to both yourself and Mr. Stallman, what you wrote
> there is correct in terms of his very specific language preferences but not
> necessarily reflective of common usage.
>
> We have a bug in the English language:  we have only "free", but Latin has
> "gratis" distinct from "libre".
>
> So when we refer to "free software", we often have to add
> "free-as-in-freedom" or "free-as-in-beer" to distinguish what we mean.
>
> It's quite true that Mr. Stallman has said

Re: Hey-Ho and Off We Go with HTML5

[Matt Maier]

You could try out the free tier of services like http://www.formmail.com/
or HTTP://www.SE dgrid.com
On Mar 2, 2016 00:30, "RM"  wrote:

>
>
> On 2.03.2016 10:18, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>
>> On 2016-03-02 09:01, RM wrote:
>>
>>> Preferably this would be WITHOUT the message having to go via the
>>> client's e-mail system as:
>>>
>>> 1.  The message should be anonymous.
>>>
>>> 2.  The end-user may have no e-mail client configured.
>>>
>>
>> Okay so there in terms of what you will be able to do in this regard with
>> the HTML5 engine there are two feasible options as far as I can see:
>>
>> 1) "launch url" with a 'mailto:' URL. This would invoke the locally
>> configured email client (and is what revMail does). This won't (I believe)
>> work in the HTML5 engine yet because we haven't hooked it up (to my
>> knowledge at least). I *think* this would be possible - Peter could perhaps
>> comment. (It would ask the hosting web-browser to launch the url).
>>
>> 2) Put a web-service on a server and get that to send the email. This
>> requires no client-side email configuration but does require configuring a
>> web-service to do it. Indeed, there might be third party services out there
>> which could be used. Again, Peter would have to comment on the feasibility
>> of whether this would work in the HTML5 engine at the moment since I cannot
>> recall off the top of my head which (if any) URL primitives we have yet
>> implemented.
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>>
> Thank you very much for a reply that is a statement of the /status quo/ as
> regards e-mailing from Livecode at the moment. This is extremely helpful as
> it gives me an idea of what I /can/ and /cannot/
> do at the moment in this regard.
>
> What I would like to do, ideally, is set up a chart of some sort with text
> entry fields for students to fill in
> online, then click a 'submit' button that will send the field entries as a
> list to an e-mail address.
>
> As the current revMail capabilities are not /currently/ implemented in the
> HTML5 engine that will have
> to wait.
>
> Am I right in understanding that, theoretically a least, the goal is to
> implement all the capabilities
> of Livecode into the HTML5 engine?
>
> Richmond.
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Re: [Blog] Script Only Stacks

[Matt Maier]

I was just reading that the line endings can be different (because of
course they can).
http://www.hyperactivesw.com/cgitutorial/scripts1.html#trouble

*Make sure line endings in scripts are correct for the server platform. DOS
line endings are carriage return and linefeed. Unix line endings are a
single linefeed. Macintosh line endings are a single carriage return (but
note that scripts run by Apache in OS X require Unix line endings.)*
On Mar 3, 2016 10:39 AM, "Richard Gaskin" 
wrote:

> Tim Bleiler wrote:
>
>> Thanks Peter,
>>
>> I gave that a try and I still get the same message. My attempts to create
>> them from scratch were saved as UTF-8 and I’ve tried all the other options
>> in TextEdit as well.  I have noticed  that if I open a functioning script
>> only stack in ATOM it is identified as UTF-8.
>>
>
> I wonder if it needs to use LC's native line ending, ASCII 10, rather than
> ASCII 13 that many Mac tools use.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> << I believe any media or other content (whether separate files or not)
> distributed with the application and/or required to make it function fully
> would need to be licensed in a GPL compatible license.>>
>
> Hi Monte, I believe (!)  that this belief is kind of a key issue in
> attempting to identify the scope of GPL for livecode stacks and their
> content.
>
> I invite all of you (all) to , put on the legal hat for a while and walk
> into the following story :
>
> GPL is a very special kind of automatic contract that is attached to a
> piece
> of work and which describes what the receiver of that piece of work can or
> not do with it.
>
> As such it is a very special contract in the world of contracts because it
> does not require the agreement of the receiver, which is "implied" by the
> act of receiving. So it is not the strongest type of contract.
>

To add to the discussion, for what it's worth, there are good reasons that
proponents of copyleft (like the FSF who wrote the GPL) insist that it's
enforced by copyright law, not contract law. While legal systems do differ
in that some don't distinguish between licenses and contracts, the
distinction is important for copyleft.

In general, a contract has to be bargained, and consideration exchanged,
before it exists, and it only exists between the two parties. Then, if a
contract if violated, you generally can only sue to be made whole, so you
have to be able to show damages. Copyright, on the other hand, exists
instantly and forever, is implicitly accepted by everyone no matter how far
removed from the licensor they end up, and if it's violated you can have
the court take action without showing damages. Additionally, copyright law
is much more homogeneous globally.

So, for FOSS, copyright is a far more attractive legal structure. In the US
court cases where copyleft was upheld judges even cited in their written
opinion that FOSS would be effectively impossible under contract law.
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Re: Use MouseLine() and still edit the same field?

[Matt Maier]

Be careful using mouseMove. It gets sent along with messages like mouseDown
regardless of whether or not the mouse is moving. So make sure the logic in
it is idempotent (produces the same result when called multiple times).

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Terry Judd 
wrote:

> Hi Mark - you probably want to use a mouseMove handler rather than
> mouseWithin. Try starting off with something simple like this...
>
> on mouseMove
> put word 2 of the mouseLine into n
> set the textColor of line 1 to -1 of me to empty
> set the textColor of line n of me to blue
> end mouseMove
>
> HTH,
>
> Terry...
>
>
>
> On 5/03/2016 7:08 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Mitchell"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >(Sorry Heather!  I¹m sending this message again from the Œproper¹
> >account..)
> >
> >I¹m not sure how long it has been around, but I have just discovered the
> >Œmousewhithin¹ message combined with the mouseline() functionŠ Awesome!
> >So, for those of you who don¹t know, the Œmousewithin¹ message is sent to
> >a field periodically (5 times a second?) whenever the mouse is inside
> >that field.
> >
> >Then, the mouseline function returns whatever line of that field the
> >mouse is currently hovering over.  I am currently using this to warn
> >folks if they have too many characters per line.  And that works fine.
> >
> >But to make it more intuitive, I want to somehow hilite or indicate the
> >line that the mouse is over in the field, without disturbing the ability
> >to edit that field (copy, paste, type stuff) with ease.
> >
> >I have tried a few different ways of hiliting the line of the field
> >(selecting it, changing the color of the text of it, etc) but any sort of
> >repeat or recursive structure does not work, as the ³mousewithin² message
> >is simply sent far too often for any Œrepeat¹ or recursion to work.
> >
> >Does anyone have any other ideas for highlighting a line in a field that
> >might work under these conditions?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Markk
> >
> >
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livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Does anyone know of any website templates that use Livecode? I want to set
up a basic file hosting/sharing thing with logins. I've got space in what
used to be the on-rev servers and it would be nice to continue using
livecode on the web like I use it on the desktop.
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Has anybody actually built a website using Livecode, as in these examples?
http://samples.on-rev.com/index.irev

I checked the code in all of these sites and, unless I'm missing something,
everyone who knows Livecode is using javascript (or is just using
templates?).
https://livecode.com/
http://activethought.net/
http://mergext.com/
http://www.fourthworld.com/index.html
http://livecodegamedeveloper.com/
http://livecodesupersite.com/
http://www.bluemangolearning.com/livecode/
http://on-rev.com/server-status/home/
https://www.fmpromigrator.com/services/php_to_livecode_service.html
http://www.gatewestcoin.com/

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Phil Davis  wrote:

> Templates, no. Framework, yes:
>
> http://revigniter.com/
>
> Phil Davis
>
>
>
>
> On 3/6/16 10:11 PM, Matt Maier wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of any website templates that use Livecode? I want to set
>> up a basic file hosting/sharing thing with logins. I've got space in what
>> used to be the on-rev servers and it would be nice to continue using
>> livecode on the web like I use it on the desktop.
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>>
> --
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>
>
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Oh. So, when you use Livecode to put "Hello world" into the browser, is it
actually sending the browser something like Hello world from the
server?
On Mar 7, 2016 19:57, "Richard Gaskin"  wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
>> Has anybody actually built a website using Livecode, as in these examples?
>> http://samples.on-rev.com/index.irev
>>
>> I checked the code in all of these sites and, unless I'm missing
>> something,
>> everyone who knows Livecode is using javascript (or is just using
>> templates?).
>>
>
> JavaScript is the only language embedded in browsers, so it's no like
> anyone has a choice there.
>
> But JavaScript is also plain text, and LiveCode is very adept at
> manipulating text.  Many of us deliver that along with HTML and CSS from
> LiveCode running on the backend.
>
> Not for everything; static content needn't be slowed down by putting it
> into a dynamic content delivery system.  But most of us have at least some
> dynamic content and/or services made with LiveCode on our servers, and some
> of us even use LiveCode for part of our static content management.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Rght...except that I can't use "view page source" to see any
Livecode because what's delivered to the browser is either html, css, or
javascript, correct? So the Livecode "source" is replaced by its own
output, which maintains the mystery.

There are several small tutorials scattered around, but where can I see
actual websites that run on Livecode? Even the on-rev.com examples don't
actually provide the *.lc files. All I can see there are the isolated
Livecode scripts and the static page delivered to the browser in html.

When you say "use Livecode for the client" do you mean a desktop standalone
or the new HTML5 standalone?

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
> > Oh. So, when you use Livecode to put "Hello world" into the browser,
> > is it actually sending the browser something like Hello world
> > from the server?
>
> Yep.  That's the secret charm of web development:  HTML defines what's in
> a page, CSS defines how it looks, JavaScript defines how you can interact
> with it - and all three are just plain text.
>
> "View Page Source" is the greatest feature ever, and every browser has
> it.  With that and a little time, even the coolest web sites become
> demystified.
>
> With a text processing toolkit like LiveCode's chunk expressions, coupled
> with everything else it does from image manipulation to socket handling and
> more, the range of ways LiveCode can contribute to web development is
> limited only by the imagination.
>
> You can generate pages locally and upload 'em securely and efficiently
> with rsync, or use a server-side CGI to accept input from the user to fill
> in custom templates with merge, or create custom images from user input, or
> access databases, or mashup content from multiple web sources, or index
> chunks of the Internet, or build intranet resources for your organization,
> or admin all your servers from one place, or make a dashboard for your
> boss, or monitor forum activity, or write a blog, or sync content between
> your phone and laptop, or
>
> And if you use LiveCode for the client also, you can multiply the number
> of things you can do over HTTP by at least two, and get them done in a
> fraction of the time. :)
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Thanks. Yeah, I think I can imagine what the script would be for that mad
libs example.

Richard's subtle cajoling reminded me of all the stuff I could just
implement in the desktop client I already have instead of starting from
scratch with web scripting.
On Mar 9, 2016 10:28 AM, "J. Landman Gay"  wrote:

> On 3/9/2016 12:22 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2016 6:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>>> There are a few examples in the community where the author has the
>>> output and source available from the same page.  Jacque, didn't you have
>>> a couple of those?
>>>
>>
>> I have a (dated) example here:
>> 
>>
>> It still uses the "rev" designation but would work fine with "lc"
>> instead. It does refer to a CGI though; the server script is partly LC
>> server stuff and partly refers to a custom LC CGI in the cgi-bin
>> directory.
>>
>> There's another one here:
>> 
>>
>> That one doesn't show the actual server script, but I could post it if
>> it would help. It isn't very complicated.
>>
>>
> Oh, here's another one:
> 
>
> Same deal, the scripts don't show but are available if you want them. Easy
> stuff.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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revIgniter installation

[Matt Maier]

Can someone help clarify the revIgniter installation instructions?

I'm trying to get started with learning how to work with this tool but it's
assuming more experience than I have.

I want to confirm that I got my own computer and my server setup correctly
for working with FileZilla and revIgniter. The original instructions are
copied below for reference.

1) download revIgniter.zip
2) extract revIgniter.zip
3) open folder revIgniter1.8.1
4) select everything and send it to a new *.zip file
5) rename that new *.zip file something meaningful
6) fire up cPanel for website
7) navigate to public_html/website.com
8) upload somethingMeaningful.zip
9) extract somethingMeaningful.zip
-- now you've got public_html/website.com/index.lc (instead of public_html/
website.com/revIgniter1.8.1/index.lc)
10) go back to your computer
11) create a folder called website.com
12) extract somethingMeaningful.zip into website.com
13) get FileZilla all credentialed up and tell it to synchronize browsing
between website.com on your computer and on the server
14) the base URL in revIgniter's application/config/config.lc will be
www.website.com

A lot of this is because cPanel will only upload multiple files and/or
folders if they're zipped together and FileZilla will only upload
individual items; it won't sync entire repositories.

So, at the end of this, what I've got is the contents of revIgniter1.8.1 is
now the contents of website.com on my computer and server. Now when I edit
or add to revIgniter's templates on my computer I can upload the changes to
the right places on the server using FileZilla. Did I do that correctly?

Installation Instructions

revIgniter is installed in four steps:

   1. Unzip the package.
   2. Upload the revIgniter folders and files to your server. Normally the
   index.lc file will be at your root.
   3. Open the application/config/config.lc file with a text editor and set
   your base URL. If you intend to use encryption or sessions, set your
   encryption key.
   4. If you intend to use a database, open the application/config/
   database.lc file with a text editor and set your database settings.

If you wish to hide the location of your revIgniter files you can rename
the system folder to something more private. If you do rename it, you must
open your main index.lc file and set the gSystemFolder variable at the top
of the page with the new name you've chosen.

To increase security even further you can move your system and application
folder above web root. Before doing so please read the section Managing
Your Application
.

That's it!

If you're new to revIgniter, please read the Getting Started
 section of
the User Guide to begin learning how to build dynamic irev applications.
Enjoy!
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

Monte got annoyed that I did something like that instead of setting
behaviors. So it might be better to write behaviors in script-only stacks
and then set them onto the various controls, rather than managing the
controls all the way from the library stack(s).
On Mar 28, 2016 18:54, "Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami" 
wrote:

> Yay! my GUI designs are in from the eye candy team so we can start cooking.
>
> I'm looking closely at script only stacks.
>
> Mark's blog was simple enough "They are just text files."
>
> I've installed Atom here.
>
>  Can you check/amend my assumptions here? Of course I can test this
> myself, but if others are already doing this kind of architecture you may
> have caveats to share?
>
> Atom:
> -  Create a project pointing to a folder  with your current app assets
> - place this under GIT control
>
> -- A "main" stack with a preopenstack handler like this
>
> on preopenstack
>  start using "animationEngine" # assume binary substack imported
>  Start using # any other binary helper stacks
>  start using "myAppCoreFunctions.livecodescript" # script only stack
>  start using "mAppPuzzleGames.livecodescript" # script only stack
> # etc.
> end preopenstack
>
> -- with almost no code in the stack stack script at all.
> -- in the project browser we will see the script only stacks
> -- we can edit the script only stacks in the script editor set break
> points use the "console"  (put to msg box)
> -- when we hit "apply" in the script editor the scripts are saved back out
> to the text files
> -- OR the modified scripts of the script only stacks are in RAM until you
> save the main stack?
> -- Buttons and top level messages go through and hit the
> functions/commands loaded in the script
>
> In Atom or from command line, you then make your commits to the repository.
>
> Seems simple enough...Anything I am missing? additions or amendments.
>
> Meanwhile I'm going to "go for it" and see how it goes.
>
>
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

I just tried reproducing your actions and now I'm confused. All I did was
make a new stack, drag a field onto it, then put:

on mouseUp
put "hello" & cr after me
end mouseUp

When I left-click, nothing happens, even though I can double click to
select words and I can left-click-drag to highlight words.

When I right-click, the field's script runs and "hello" appears in the
field.

The field doesn't even get "mouseUp" (or mouseDown for that matter) when I
left-click, but it does when I right-click.

I'm using 8dp13. Is that supposed to happen?

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
bra...@hindu.org> wrote:

> @ Richard:
>
> I looked at the bug 8993 . The problem is... what does "loaded" actually
> mean?
>
> After two days of research, study and testing and responses here...
>  I *still* could not  figure it out (until now thanks to your tip on stack
> files)
>
> Indeed a serious confusion/conundrum for a new comer.
>
> Create script-only.livecode stack
>
> script "script-only"
> on mouseup
>Put "Hello" into me
> end mouseup
>
> Save, open and apply as behavior to field. lock field, click on it..
> nothing happens. msg is not sent to the behavior script.
>
> put  this into preopenstack
>
> start using stack  "[path-to]/script-only.livecode"
>
> Now the madness begins: the stack accepts mousedown from *anywhere* on the
> UI and triggers an error, because "me" is not the field to which the
> behavior was applied.
>
>  changing the preopenstack handler to
>
> open stack  "[path-to]/script-only.livecode"
>
> does not "load" it as such.. it is open, You can see it if you were to set
> behaviors it is there in the dropdown menu under the inspector but the
> field that has it set as a behavior does not trigger the mouseup in the
> behavior stack script. Baffling for a newbie.
>
> IN the bug Mark Waddington writes: "I'm going to cease thinking of this as
> an enhancement request, and instead as a bug - the method used currently is
> too opaque."
>
> opaque is an understatement. Virtually Impenetrable may be better.
>
> Stack files Wow... that works!
>
> So why not just declared this asap  and very, very explicitly in the new
> documentation, ugly and as verbose as this appears, this is what we need:
>
> -
>
> "In order to use script only stacks  as behaviors in specific controls,
> these must be loaded as stack files so that they are placed into the
> message path along with the scripts of your main stack. In your main stack
> (or substacks that may use them)   Use the inspector, choose stack files
> and browse to choose your script on disk.
>
> Unlike button behaviors which are embedded in your stack, you must be sure
> to include these stacks later when you move, package or distribute your
> main stack. Also be aware that the main stack cannot track changes to the
> location of these stack files. If you move them on disk the reference to
> the stack will fail and you will need to update the stack files and point
> to the stack in it's new locations.
>
> Also note that it if you use "open" to open your script only stack file...
> it is still not in the message path and your behaviors will fail,
> furthermore, if you put "start using stack" (in an open stack,
> preopenstack  handler) to load your script only stack, it will receive all
> messages from the stack and not just from the child control to which it is
> assigned. e.g. if your intent is for the child control(s) to respond to "on
> mouseup"  this will not work if you do "start using" for your script-only
> stack."
>
> ---
>
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

I just want to chime in to disagree with the idea that we should leave
useful information out of the Dictionary.

There's no such thing as a document that's too big when we have networks
and search. Even if we're forced to browse and read we can just put the
information in order of importance so that the more trivial stuff is at the
end.

If it takes a while to explain, then it takes a while to explain. If there
are a lot of caveats, then there are a lot of caveats. That sounds like a
good reason to simplify the application, not a good reason to keep secrets.
What feels like a "hefty tome" to someone with decades of experience feels
like a "gold mine" to someone with no experience. A lot of gold is heavy;
that's just how it works.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>
> > I think the idea that you have to open an external behavior stack
> > *before* you open the main stack that has controls which point to
> > it as their parent, is totally unintuitive and when a newbie reads
> > "load, open, put into memory" etc... he/she will always assume this
> > can happen in the preopenstack handler.
>
> Perhaps.  Ideally we'd need to user-test that to affirm the assumption. It
> wouldn't have occurred to me, but I've spent too long using xTalks to be a
> reliable gauge of what it takes to learn them (which is why the older I get
> the more ardent I've become about listening carefully to people who know
> nothing about the software; that precious naivety leaves so quickly, and is
> invaluable during that brief moment it still exists).
>
> The one thing everyone agrees on is that the current need to be so aware
> of load order for behavior resolution is undesirable and needs to be
> changed at first opportunity.  Mark Waddingham doesn't much care for it any
> more than you or I do.  I'd be surprised if it isn't resolved (all puns
> intended) by 8.2 if not sooner.
>
> Fortunately we have the convenient stackFiles property to make this a bit
> simpler in the meantime.
>
>
> > "Load "MyBehaviorStack" into memory without opening it. "
> >
> > It is or is not open after you query the property? do you really mean:
> >
> > "You can query a property to open the stack in the background and put
> > its stack script into memory."
>
> Whether a stack is "open" if loaded into memory without using an "open" or
> "go" command is perhaps a philosophical question.
>
> Personally I try to use "open" to describe a stack's runtime state only in
> cases where I brought it into RAM with "open" or "go", and the rare case of
> anything else as simply "in memory".
>
>
> > a) b) (with explanation above)  c) below + Jacque's explanation could
> > go in the dictionary... I don't think that's over loading it. had
> > that been what I read at Git Hub, we could have avoided several days
> > for lost time.
>
> Go for it, but please be brief in Dictionary entries.   This thread is as
> long as it is in part because of a misunderstanding of what "start using"
> does, which may merit mention there but on the other hand if we included
> caveats in every Dictionary entry to cover mistakes I've made trying to
> misapply commands it would be a tome too hefty to read. :)
>
> Rather than enumerate all possible ways do not do something, just focus on
> what you want them to do.
>
>
> > OTOH, we did get the gold out of it:  your nested behaviors/as-
> >classes tutorial...
> >
> > So it was all worth it!
>
> Glad that was helpful.   Nested behaviors are da bombdiggety!
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

You keep citing the theoretically limitless number of contingencies that,
if addressed, could bloat the dictionary beyond readability. There's a
simple solution to that problem: don't go looking for theoretical problems.

Instead, just correct, massage, or add to the dictionary entry when someone
has a problem relevant to that entry.

I've also maintained gigantic technical references (fighter aircraft
weapons systems, satellite operations, and ground control systems) and we
followed that simple process. The TOs (technical orders) started out with
just the instructions from the factory. Over time they accumulated
corrections, warnings, cautions, and notes in response to actual events.
That way the extra information appeared right where it was needed and
nobody wasted time on any theoretically necessary information.

That's a big part of helping people learn on their own. Putting the
information they need right where they need it, rather than putting it
somewhere and challenging them to go find it.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > I just want to chime in to disagree with the idea that we should leave
> > useful information out of the Dictionary.
>
> When you put it like that it sounds silly indeed.  Fortunately I wasn't
> advocating omitting useful information, just suggesting we may want to
> maintain an awareness for the scope of doc options at our disposal, and be
> mindful about which details go where.
>
> If you were advocating silliness we might put the User Guide, the Lessons,
> and every LiveCode blog into the Dictionary.  But I know you're not.
>
> We want useful information, where it's most useful.
>
>
> > There's no such thing as a document that's too big when we have
> > networks and search.
>
> That's precisely why I advocate maintaining the Dictionary as an essential
> reference (as in "essence"); it should be easy to link to relevant
> tutorials and guides for more complete discussion when desired.
>
>
> > If it takes a while to explain, then it takes a while to explain.
>
> One of the products I work in is a medial reference for pediatric
> emergency specialists.  Much of its info is in the Physician's Desk
> Reference and a large number of current research papers, but what
> distinguishes our product is that it has LESS information than other
> available sources.
>
> "What's that?  Less?"
>
> Yes.  The PDR is too big to read.  Every doctor has it; few open it. And
> the wealth of information at PubMed is too vast to sift through when you
> have an ER case load stacked up.
>
> So our team is comprised of ER specialists from around the world who
> gather the best information on modern practice available, and work
> diligently to distill it to its most valuable essence useful in a clinical
> setting.
>
> The LiveCode Dictionary need not be quite as sparse; no one's dying on an
> ER table waiting for us to find the parameters to "import snapshot" (and
> God help them if they were ).
>
> But there are different forms of docs because each serves a different
> purpose.
>
>
> > If there are a lot of caveats, then there are a lot of caveats.
> > That sounds like a good reason to simplify the application, not
> > a good reason to keep secrets.
>
> Simplifying the app is indeed the first goal.  Mark Waddingham has already
> slated behavior resolution for cleanup, so it will become simpler at some
> point in the future.
>
> But in the here and now, rest assured there's no conspiracy to keep
> anything secret.
>
> The question on the table is: what is most appropriate in the Dictionary,
> and what is most appropriate for another resource?
>
> The Dictionary is not a User Guide, nor a tutorial.  It's a reference for
> understanding what an API token expects, and what will be returned.
>
> There are many caveats throughout the Dictionary, and arguably there
> should be more.
>
> But I would caution against turning it into the most comprehensive
> collection of all possible things one might mistakenly do and how to avoid
> them.  Each page could be 1MB or more with just mistakes I've made alone. :)
>
> In this specific case, a key part of the original confusion resulted not
> from something missing from the "behavior" entry, but by not consulting the
> "start using" entry.  I've been teaching xTalks for decades, and that's one
> mismatch I'd not previously encountered.  In retrospect it's
> understandable, and I won't completely rule out the possibility that a note
> about "start using" not being relevant to "behavior" 

Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

I never suggested you write it. I objected to you advising the mailing list
not to include this discussion in the Dictionary because it would start
down a slippery slope towards "too big."

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Kay C Lan wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> That's precisely why I advocate maintaining the Dictionary as
> >> an essential reference (as in "essence"); it should be easy
> >> to link to relevant tutorials and guides for more complete
> >> discussion when desired.
> >>
> > Could you give me an example of a Dictionary entry that has a link
> > to a Guide or Tutorial?
>
> So many things in my life would be much simpler if "advocate" meant the
> same as "have been given authority and resources to have done it".
>
> But unfortunately my world is not so simple. :)
>
> So in short, "not yet".
>
>
> > Would they just be included in the Reference Tag or as a basic html
> > link to Tutorials?
>
> Matt's request (in keeping with many others') is that we try to avoid
> requiring users to go to a generic Search or index to find things, that we
> "put the information where they need it", and I've wholeheartedly agreed.
>
> To support that I would advocate that such links would be included
> directly in the Markdown of relevant Dictionary entries.
>
> As for the alternative, in v8 I believe all tutorials and guides are
> already listed in the Help index, no?
>
>
> > Whilst I agree with you in principle, and that is certainly the
> > destination we need to be headed
>
> Glad to hear it.  Peter Brett and I have some similar ideas about how to
> take advantage of the new docs format, now that the team has completed the
> considerable task of converting everything to Markdown.  If you like that
> idea I'm sure you'll like many of Peter's even more.
>
>
> > at this point in time I've got to agree with Matt.
>
> As I have.  I've very explicitly and repeatedly encouraged people here to
> have exactly what they want by making it so:
>
>As I've noted here before, this blog post offers some helpful
>guidance for community members to get started contributing to
>the documentation to make it more of they want:
>
>
> The only place Matt and I disagree is the suggestion that I write it.
>
> My work with LC is as a volunteer, not an employee.  And since my own
> experience has me inclined to try to meet the need expressed in this thread
> through different means, I'm not able to guess what other people may find
> ideal for this.
>
> In short, I have neither the time nor talent to do what's been requested
> of me.
>
> But I have encouraged others to do so.  And I continue to believe that
> adding whatever notes to a Dictionary entry one feels will prevent a
> similar question from coming up in the future is best done by doing it, or
> at least submitting it as an enhancement request to the bug queue for
> someone else to do, as opposed to just writing it here in a mailing list
> where it's almost guaranteed to be forgotten.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

I've followed along with this...


http://lessons.livecode.com/spaces/lessons/buckets/809/lessons/36654-How-do-I-install-LiveCode-Server-on-Windows-with-Apache-

...and got as far as getting the example html to appear at localhost/test.lc
.

But the  isn't being rendered, it's just being
treated like html.

I tried changing "http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

I'm not sure. I found files with those names but they have a .so extension.
When I open them in Atom half of the file looks like binary. I couldn't
find an explanation in the Apache docs of how to "enable" them.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > I've followed along with this...
> >
> >
> http://lessons.livecode.com/spaces/lessons/buckets/809/lessons/36654-How-do-I-install-LiveCode-Server-on-Windows-with-Apache-
> >
> > ...and got as far as getting the example html to appear at
> > localhost/test.lc
> >
> > But the  isn't being rendered, it's just being
> > treated like html.
> >
> > I tried changing " > didn't change anything.
> >
> > I also tried changing the file from "test.lc" to "test.blerg" and got
> > exactly the same output at localhost/test.blerg so I'm not even sure
> > if the server is aware that it should be sending *.lc files to
> > livecode server.
> >
> > How do I troubleshoot why the server isn't rendering the livecode
> > script?
>
> Are all three of this modules active in your Apache install?:
>
> mod_cgi
> mod_actions
> mod_alias
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

According to this...

https://github.com/h5bp/server-configs-apache/wiki/How-to-enable-Apache-modules

...as long as the modules aren't commented out in the httpd.conf file
they're enabled. I can confirm that they are not commented out.

Part of the problem might be that the instructions haven't been updated.
They reference Apache 2.2 but easyPHP came with Apache 2.4 and there are
some changes.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >
> >> Are all three of this modules active in your Apache install?:
> >>
> >> mod_cgi
> >> mod_actions
> >> mod_alias
> >
> > I'm not sure. I found files with those names but they have a .so
> > extension.
> > When I open them in Atom half of the file looks like binary. I
> > couldn't find an explanation in the Apache docs of how to "enable"
> > them.
>
> I'm out of my league at this point.  I've only managed Apache on Linux,
> and Ubuntu and other Debian distros include a convenient a2enmod command to
> enable those.
>
> The best I can offer is to refer you to your Windows admin docs and
> perhaps the docs at apache.org
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

Neato! It's working now. I'm not entirely sure why. I started poking at
everything.

For posterity: some stuff that seemed like it must be important was...
- change back-slashes "\" to front-slashes "/" if copy&pasting file paths
- Apache2.4 replaced "order allow,deny" and "allow from all" with "require
all granted" or something like that. I've got both the old and new syntax
in here
- the instructions don't mention the need to rename the script alias that's
pointing at the actual executable from "livecode-server.exe" to
"livecode-community-server.exe" if that's the version you've got.
- I also stuck ".lc" onto the end of a few lists of other file extensions

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Matt Maier  wrote:

> According to this...
>
>
> https://github.com/h5bp/server-configs-apache/wiki/How-to-enable-Apache-modules
>
> ...as long as the modules aren't commented out in the httpd.conf file
> they're enabled. I can confirm that they are not commented out.
>
> Part of the problem might be that the instructions haven't been updated.
> They reference Apache 2.2 but easyPHP came with Apache 2.4 and there are
> some changes.
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Richard Gaskin  > wrote:
>
>> Matt Maier wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Are all three of this modules active in your Apache install?:
>> >>
>> >> mod_cgi
>> >> mod_actions
>> >> mod_alias
>> >
>> > I'm not sure. I found files with those names but they have a .so
>> > extension.
>> > When I open them in Atom half of the file looks like binary. I
>> > couldn't find an explanation in the Apache docs of how to "enable"
>> > them.
>>
>> I'm out of my league at this point.  I've only managed Apache on Linux,
>> and Ubuntu and other Debian distros include a convenient a2enmod command to
>> enable those.
>>
>> The best I can offer is to refer you to your Windows admin docs and
>> perhaps the docs at apache.org
>>
>>
>> --
>>  Richard Gaskin
>>  Fourth World Systems
>>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>  
>>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
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model oriented programming

[Matt Maier]

So, Livecode is a scripting language. Whatever logic and data I string
together in LCS is converted by the engine into equivalent code in
languages like C. Does that make the LC engine a code generator? Seems like
it does.

These guys take it one level farther back and start with a model which
defines a code generator which then creates code.
http://download.imatix.com/mop/introduction.html

I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

They also use their code generator to generate their code generator.
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

[Matt Maier]

I just pledged. Both sides of the conversation make sense, and obviously I
ended up on the "pledge" side of it. Getting the widgets and LCB working to
"wrap" several more popular languages will dramatically increase the
utility of everything we already know how to do in Livecode. That's the
main value proposition for me. I only have to learn one (one and a half
now?) language and I can make things happen on all the major operating
systems, the server, soon in browsers. Being able to grab existing code
from, and collaborate with, everyone who doesn't know Livecode will be
fantastic.

Also, I'm approaching the pledge from the perspective of starting my own
company. The way Livecode is going about it is more or less the same way
I'd prefer to go about it. I'd prefer to have a direct relationship where I
solve someone's problem and they pay me for it, willingly, because I'm
actually solving their problem. I also would prefer to tackle big, hairy,
audacious goals. I also expect that I'll be better at working in the
laboratory than doing marketing. Basically, all the stuff Livecode is
doing. They're tackling a big problem, which is addressing a major pain
point for me, so I'm happy to support them.

Big projects always end up taking longer and costing more than hoped. I
don't want them to run out of money before they finish grinding through it.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Dave Kilroy 
wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I agree with Sannyasin about positivity and this being a thread about
> supporting the development of LiveCode
>
> I also am 'all in' and have just pledged at
> https://livecode.com/project/infinite-livecode/
>
> My regards to all who have pledged or who intend to pledge, no matter how
> little or how much - and I'll see you on the sunny side of the street some
> day!
>
> Kind regards
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote
> > On 5/12/16, 2:03 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola" <
>
> > use-livecode-bounces@.runrev
>
> >  on behalf of
>
> > rdimola@
>
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>The LC upside WAY outweighs the downside. I'm all in!
> >>At least that's how I feel.
> >
> > I want to apologize for hi-jacking Heather's thread. If I had complaints
> > about SFTP I should have written to Kevin directly. If it means we all
> are
> > now "piling on" to say how much we love this tool. I will also switch my
> > tone herewith and into the future.
> >
> > Certainly an open language.. if achieved will allow for a great many new
> > extensions at prices we can all afford. I am also "all in" with it comes
> > to Livecode and continue to be a strong advocate. My post did not reflect
> > that at all. I have dabbled with PHP, Javascript and really don't want to
> > bother going with another language.
> >
> > Please resume the intended discussion:
> >
> > Heather wrote:
> >
> > "Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important
> > information I'm sure will interest you!
> >
> > https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/
> >
> > All the best form Hawaii
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
> > use-livecode@.runrev
>
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> "The first 90% of the task takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes
> the other 90% of the time."
> Peter M. Brigham
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Infinite-LiveCode-Message-from-CEO-tp4704550p4704596.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

[Matt Maier]

In terms of what we should expect, does this push indicate a "breadth
first" rather than "depth first" strategy? As in, will Livecode's reach
continue to expand as quickly as possible while it's perfection is of
secondary concern? More specifically, will we be getting 80% functionality
in more places rather than 100% functionality in one place?

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:

> I agree it is a rather short time frame - but 3 months would be far too
> long.
>
> This project hopes to complete "this summer" - so my guess would be end of
> August or September - therefore only 4-1/2 months away; they can't wait 3
> months to see if the funding is available.
>
> -- Alex.
>
>
> On 13/05/2016 10:10, Roland Huettmann wrote:
>
>> I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just
>> around
>> the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
>> trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.
>>
>> Roland
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Re: SVG Widgets Work Well -- User Contributions - Screen Casts

[Matt Maier]

I found that GifCam is great for making little feature animations that are
easier to share and embed than videos.
On May 14, 2016 01:30, "Earthednet-wp"  wrote:

> Great idea! I'd like to see that happen.
> Bill
>
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
>
> > On May 13, 2016, at 4:19 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
> bra...@hindu.org> wrote:
> >
> > SVG widget, despite limitations at the moment, is awesome making icons.
> No more PNG's that go "all bust up" if you resize them…
> >
> >
> >
> > Go to iconfinder.com… download what you want as svg.
> >
> >
> >
> > Note that there are cases where the svg is in several paths. So if you
> open in Illustrator, select all and make compound path, save and *then* use
> that in the SVG widget… it works.. even unexpectedly where you may have
> e.g. 3 dots that you would think must be independent paths…
> >
> >
> >
> > My suggestion is that you might better expose that tip on making
> compound paths.
> >
> >
> >
> > Which then leads my question on user contributions channels. Let's say
> we discover something useful that we feel is really buried in terms of what
> newbies would need and might be frustrated trying to find.
> >
> >
> >
> > How does one best get that into the mix of documentatin/tutorials.
> Another useful channel I see is YouTube itself… lots of people posting
> things like "How to do this in Outlook"   3 minutes, max
> >
> >
> >
> > But it is fragmented.
> >
> >
> >
> > We do a lot of small tech screen casts internally and it would be
> trivioal for me or many others to start recording video and just do a "Up
> and Running with SVG Icon"   2 minutes, open stack, drag SVG icon out.
> Switch to browser, download SVG switch to illustrator, make compound path,
> open in Atom, copy and paste into Livecod… and verbalize the gotchas  like
> "if your path doesn't start with "m" then it wont' work… be sure to select
> between the quotes… you don't need all that code at the top. Etc."
> >
> >
> >
> > So if one did make such a screen cast. Where would it go
> >
> >
> >
> > We are not talking about issues/problems or work around, but just things
> that actually do work but which may be obscure.
> >
> >
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Arrays vs databases

[Matt Maier]

I already know how to use Livecode and I think I can do everything I need
using arrays.

According to this lesson, I can store an array as a custom property of a
stack which can be saved and loaded.
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/17375-how-do-i-save-custom-properties-in-a-standalone-application

Something I've done myself already is to either save the array as JSON in a
text file or just as a binary with encode.

So, in the most naive sense, it looks like I can have a key-value store
without installing and learning anything new. But databases have extra
functionality to deal with stuff like multiple simultaneous users, data
integrity, and performance optimization.

Can I just setup an instance of Livecode to act like an in-memory,
key-value database? Maybe have a standalone stack act as the controller and
have it mirror it's state in a separate stack that can be saved and loaded.

I don't know enough about database design to frame the tradeoffs. Can
someone who groks both Livecode and databases comment on this idea?
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Re: the keys of the dragData?

[Matt Maier]

I think it should be "the keys of the dragData of something" or just "the
keys of dragData".
On May 27, 2016 17:58, "David Bovill"  wrote:

This isn't working for me in 8.1:

> *put* the keys of the dragData into dragKeys


Is this a bug or am I doing something silly?
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Re: Multi-level Undo?

[Matt Maier]

I looked into it a while back. A few basic options are:
- rationalize all of the user's actions into a list of named actions, keep
track of the actions in order, and then have the engine execute the list.
if the user uses undo, just move a marker one item backwards in the list,
so that the engine only gets up to the marker. If they use redo, move the
marker ahead one item
- save a complete copy of the working file after every change. use up as
much space as you want and start overwriting the oldest version. if a user
uses undo, load an older version. if they use redo, load a newer version.
- carefully control your engine's options so that they are all perfectly
undoable, with no remainders or side effects. if the user uses undo, just
execute the exact opposite of the last operation. if they use redo, just
execute the exact same operation again.

You can mix and match among these options. I used the first one there and
my files never got anywhere close to big enough that you'd notice they were
being regenerated from scratch after every change. That depends on your
task, though; mine was text and some simple vectors.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Peter Reid  wrote:

> Is there any way of supporting multi-level undo in LiveCode?
>
> My current project provides support for the user to manipulate objects
> (grouped vector objects).  The user can grab objects, move them around the
> window, group/ungroup, align, cut, copy, paste and undo.  However the undo
> is single level only.
>
> Can anyone suggest a way of providing multi-level undo, even if only 3
> levels?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Peter
> --
> Peter Reid
> Loughborough, UK
>
>
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typo

[Matt Maier]

It's off topic, but in the spirit of wanting Livecode to be as good as it
can be, this sentence shouldn't have an "a" in it.

https://livecode.com/services/

"Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the right new
LiveCode developers onto your team"
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Re: typo

[Matt Maier]

Wasn't planning to make a habit out of this, but here's another one. Unles
"variabable" was a punny easter egg. Maybe some kind of Freudian slip.
http://samples.on-rev.com/get.irev

"...added with the following syntax:

http://www.yoururl.com?variabableName1=value&...";


I'll stop if someone can point me towards a comprehensive explanation of
how to connect Livecode scripts on all of the different platforms to each
other.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:41 PM, [-hh]  wrote:

> Hi Klus and Dr.Hwkins,
>
> sorry, searched without "a".
> But off topic is off topic, so I'll insist on that:
>
> Matt writes:
> '.. this sentence shouldn't have an "a" in it.'
> And this sentence(*) has two "a" in it.
>
> He could have written
> '.. this sentence shouldn't have an "a " in it.'
>
> Else we have two spaces (one too much) there and
> also the word "tem".
>
> Perhaps "onto your tem" makes sense? A hidden message?
> If we scramble the chars we get "to mentor you" ...
>
> (*)The sentence:
> "Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the
> right new LiveCode developers onto your team"
>
> Regrds, Hermnn
> Klaus major-k wrote
> > Hi Hermann,
> >
> >> Am 30.07.2016 um 17:00 schrieb [-hh] <
>
> > hh@.on-rev
>
> > >:
> >>
> >> [1] As to the sentence you cite:
> >> Why should have "your team" no "a"?
> >> Or: What means "your tem?"
> >
> > there is an "a" too much right after "hire":
> >
> >>> ...to help you hire a the right new LiveCode developer...
> >
> >
> >> [2] The sentence you cite is not there.
> >> https://livecode.com/services/
> >
> > It is! Just copied this paragraph from that webpage:
> > ...
> > Developer Recruitment Support
> > Do you need more LiveCode developers on your team?
> > Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the right new
> > LiveCode developers
> > onto your team. We can also provide optional training to the new
> > developers.
> > ...
> >
> >> Matt Maier wrote
> >>> It's off topic, but in the spirit of wanting Livecode to be as good as
> >>> it
> >>> can be, this sentence shouldn't have an "a" in it.
> >>>
> >>> https://livecode.com/services/
> >>>
> >>> "Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the right new
> >>> LiveCode developers onto your team"
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Klaus
> > --
> > Klaus Major
> > http://www.major-k.de
>
> > klaus@
>
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
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>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
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> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Ideas for LiveCode workshops - help needed

[Matt Maier]

hostm.com has a tutorial with a desktop stack and server scripts that
allows you to add users to a database on the server from the desktop using
HTTPS.

It would be neat to have a generic "track stuff" app in Livecode that's got
all the if-then's and libraries and whatnot to be compiled and work on
every platform. That way people could just expand on the "stuff to track"
part because the rest of it already works. Sort of a bare bones personal
cloud type thing with clients for every platform. Getting the platforms to
talk to each other is esoteric.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> How about a client-server user registration system?
>
> Everyone needs one, and in addition to being widely useful it would
> demonstrate making HTTPS calls from LC clients, server-side DB use, and
> other things that play an ever more pervasive role in our increasingly
> cloud-driven world.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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file upload options

[Matt Maier]

I'm trying to figure out if I should code a solution into my desktop app or
just tell people to use a 3rd-party app like WinSCP.

What I think I need people to be able to do is "sync" a project folder on
their computer with a repository I'm hosting for them on my site. The
folder will have multiple files of various types.

Just from what I've picked up so far, it seems like all of the options
(put, post, FTP) can't upload in parallel. Additionally, it would make
sense to only upload new and/or changed information rather than everything
every time.

I'm inferring that it might save a lot of time to just figure out how to
setup some kind of secure FTP access for each user to their repository and
tell them to use a tool that's already built for the time being. Otherwise
I'll have to basically recreate the core functionality of an FTP client.

I suppose a theoretical alternative is to carefully track all of the
changes the user makes to their project folder so they can be uploaded one
at a time, without actually comparing anything or working in parallel.

I'm estimating time based on how much I understand of the example stacks
from HostM.com. https://www.hostm.com/tutorials/livecode/api-mariadb-mysql
I got them working (with just an echo instead of the database), but there's
a lot of stuff in there I left alone, like figuring out how to deal with
version numbers, unicode, POST, HTTP headers, etc. Presumably, multipart
file uploads, and full directory uploads, will be a huge pain without an
equivalent template stack.
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Re: OT: Switch it off and back on ...

[Matt Maier]

Because we're capable of building systems more complex than we can
understand. So there are always ghost states it can get into that we didn't
prepare for.

I was reading about "crash only" programming a while ago. It like using the
"turn it off and back on again"approach as a part of normal business. Since
all of your systems need to be able to recover from a crash anyway, why
bother programming a graceful shutdown? Just set them up so that they can
pick up where they left off and crash them if anything isn't running
perfectly.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:

> My wife is always annoyed / amused that my stock response to any
> non-trivial computer / broadband / phone problem is the magic "power-cycle"
> method. As she says "4 years getting a BSc in Computer Science, 25 years in
> the electronics design and software business - and that's the best you can
> do". I suspect the most annoying part for her is that it nearly always
> works :-)
>
> Anyway, today that technique just worked again - when even I didn't expect
> it to. Her new iPhone (two weeks old) was in trouble - it wouldn't charge.
> We tried multiple different connector cables, and power sources just to be
> sure - but it just wouldn't register the power supply, and power was down
> to around 10%. So I made sure we had a current iCloud backup, installed
> Telegram on her iPad while she still had some charge left (to get the SMS
> to confirm the main phone number) so she could still get/send messages (and
> let the main contacts know via What's App). And then (with NO expectations
> of success) switched it off and back on - and the darn thing is now happily
> charging.
>
> Why can't we build tech items that don't suffer such problems and get
> fixed by this solution 
>
> -- Alex.
>
>
>
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Re: OT: Switch it off and back on ...

[Matt Maier]

I think the stuff I read about crash-only said that it's normally
implemented in a hierarchy. So you try to restart little processes. If they
come back up and work correctly then nothing else is affected. If they
don't, then you crash the larger process. And so on.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > I was reading about "crash only" programming a while ago. It like
> > using the "turn it off and back on again"approach as a part of normal
> > business. Since all of your systems need to be able to recover from a
> > crash anyway, why bother programming a graceful shutdown? Just set
> > them up so that they can pick up where they left off and crash them
> > if anything isn't running perfectly.
>
> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2016-July/228647.html
>
> :)
>
> I like the simplicity of crash-only.  But I currently enjoy a
> below-industry-average support cost; I can't imagine how big of a multiple
> of that average my support costs would be if I rebooted the user's machine
> instead of providing a more graceful degradation.
>
> Still, tempting
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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put one array after another

[Matt Maier]

Is there a command to merge two array variables into one?

Example:

tFirstArray[tom] = mot
tFirstArray[jane] = enaj

tSecondArray[bill] = llib
tSecondArray[name] = eman

put tSecondArray after tFirstArray

tFirstArray[tom] = mot
tFirstArray[jane] = enaj
tFirstArray[bill] = llib
tFirstArray[name] = eman
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Re: put one array after another

[Matt Maier]

Thanks Tore, yeah that works. I was just curious if there was a way to do
it directly. Anytime the syntax is simpler there are fewer chances to make
a mistake.

I found "append" in the dictionary but it's not really documented and I
couldn't get a script to compile with it.

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Tore Nilsen  wrote:

> You could try this, it works if the array is declared global or local, and
> should work if  the arrays are script local if both arrays are constructed
> within the same handler
>
> repeat for each key tKey in tSecondArray
>
> put tSecondArray[tKey] into tFirstArray[tKey]
>
> end repeat
>
>
> Regards
> Tore
>
>
> > 10. aug. 2016 kl. 18.41 skrev Matt Maier :
> >
> > Is there a command to merge two array variables into one?
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > tFirstArray[tom] = mot
> > tFirstArray[jane] = enaj
> >
> > tSecondArray[bill] = llib
> > tSecondArray[name] = eman
> >
> > put tSecondArray after tFirstArray
> >
> > tFirstArray[tom] = mot
> > tFirstArray[jane] = enaj
> > tFirstArray[bill] = llib
> > tFirstArray[name] = eman
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Re: put one array after another

[Matt Maier]

I second the vote for a YAML library. It makes text and arrays work
together a lot better than JSON.

The way I've been tracking arrays in text for documentation purposes is
basically just a table at heart:

array[first-key][this-key] = whatever
array[first-key][that-key] = foobar
array[2nd-key][some-key] = data
array[2nd-key][another-one] = more data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][new-level] = fake data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][next-level] = probably also fake data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][here-we-go-again] = totally the real data

Usually I'll omit the redundant text, which helps me think of it as a tree

array[first-key][this-key] = whatever
[that-key] = foobar
array[2nd-key][some-key] = data
  [another-one] = more data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][new-level] = fake data
   [next-level] = probably also fake data
   [here-we-go-again] = totally the real data

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Quentin Long wrote:
>
> > I don't know if there's a command that will do the job. However,
> > there's a construction I use when I merge two list variables into one:
> >
> > put ItemList2 into item (1 + the number of items in ItemList1) of
> > ItemList1
> >
> > That construction may seem a little weird, but it does the job. So
> > *if* the same sort of logic applies to arrays, something like this
> > might do the job:
> >
> > function ConcatArray Array1, Array2
> >   -- if this was a real function, it would confirm that Array1 and
> Array2 are both, you know, *arrays*
> >   put the number of lines in the keys of Array1 into A1
> >   put the keys of Array2 into key (A1 + 1) of Array1
> >   return Array1
> > end ConcatArray
>
> The "*if*" there is critical, as strings (LC lists) do not work like
> arrays.
>
> I'm not sure of the specifics of LC's implementation, but this general
> discussion may be useful:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associative_array#Implementation
>
> In brief (and woefully oversimplified), we could conceive of an array as a
> collection of memory addresses, in which each address is derived from a
> hashing function applied to the key.
>
> This is why when we try to display an array in a field it shows empty -
> there is no single string for the array data, its contents instead spread
> across multiple locations linked together through pointers. Indeed, given
> that arrays can be nested, it's non-trivial to come up with a string
> representation to meaningfully represent them.*
>
> In contrast to the actual structure of an array, using the keys function
> does return a string, a return-delimited list of the key names.  But the
> creation of that string is copying the keys from the actual array
> structure, and not the structure itself.
>
> So given an array which we could notate as:
>
>   Array2/
> key "a" = value "SomeValue"
> key "b" = value "SomeOtherValue"
>
> ...the line above that reads:
>
>   put the keys of Array2 into key (A1 + 1) of Array1
>
> ...would first get a string comprised of copies of the key names, like
> this:
>
>a
>b
>
> ...then add 1 to the number of lines there to get 3, and then use that as
> the string list of key names as the value of element Array1[3]
>
> That is, if the syntax "...into key  of " was
> something LC did - using LC we'd need to write that as:
>
>put the keys of Array2 into Array1[A1+1)
>
> But while that modified line would execute, it still won't do what we want
> here.  It applies a return delimited string of key names as a value to a
> single element, and what we're looking for is a method of bulk copying the
> actual array elements.
>
>
> This post may seem tediously long and pedantic, but bear with me, as I
> think we're discovering an opportunity for an enhanced array tutorial.
>
> The conceptualization of the role of array keys here closely matches one
> we saw a couple weeks ago on this list, in which a very experienced
> developer was attempting to use the keys of an array as a sort of bulk
> copying method for the array elements.
>
> Whether we have a good means of doing that bulk copying already (union
> seems useful here) is less interesting to me than the conceptualization
> itself.  There may be value exploring ways we might make the
> conceptualization of arrays more closely match their actual structure,
> hopefully making it easier for us to anticipate how the various syntax for
> arrays can and can't be used for a given task.
>
> Many years ago Dar Scott put together a wonderfully animated tutorial on
> LiveCode (then "Revolution") Message Mechanics, available here:
> http://pages.swcp.com/dsc/revstacks.html
>
> I wonder if we might have a similarly inventive soul among us who may be
> able to deliver something as nice for explaining array structure.
>
> As with Dar's stack, this may well be a case where illustrations, esp.
> animated ones, might help far more than any explanatory text alone.
>
> Arrays are among the more abstract things i

livecode JSON extension

[Matt Maier]

I'm using a stack written by someone else that's trying to call what
appears to be a built-in JSON library.

For example, it will call jsonImport() on some JSON, but won't find that
handler. The error says to check to see if the "com.livecode.library.json"
extension is checked in the standalone application settings.

I've checked and unchecked that extension several times. It's always
checked when I open the stack. How do I get Livecode to actually use that
extension?
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