Re: Can't codesign Mac app

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

I think this is the most recent lesson listing the terminal commands for using 
NotaryTool instead of altool.
These worked when I was using the last version of Ventura and Xcode 14.3.1.  I 
haven’t tried Sonoma.


Code signing and notarizing your LC standalone for distribution outside the Mac 
Appstore with Xcode 13 and up | How To - Step-By-Step Guides To Tasks In 
LiveCode | LiveCode 
Lessons
lessons.livecode.com
[X]


On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:27 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:

On 10/9/23 5:13 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
On 10/9/23 4:46 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
I'm using Matthias' mrSignNotarizeHelper V3.1 with xCode 13.2.1 on Mac OS 
12.6.9 (Monterey) but get a script error. The same thing happens in both LC 
9.6.9 and 9.6.10 dp 6.

So then I tried notarizationHelper V4 but keep getting "no identity found" 
errors. I've tried all the suggestions in the lesson. This is pretty critical 
for me right now, does anyone know what's wrong? It was last signed 
successfully in May of this year.

I need to codesign today...

Addendum: there were breakpoints in the script, which I thought at first were 
errors, in version 3.1. I removed them, and while it did not break into the 
debugger any more I am still getting "no identity found."
I have tried with and without a space after "Developer ID Application:". All 
the other fields in settings are as they were before when it worked. All 
certificates and the app password are correct, valid, and available in KeyChain 
Access.

Thanks to both Timothy and Paul for suggestions. My client was able to 
sign/notarize on her machine using Matthias' tool. She's on Sonoma. We see the 
notarization and stapling logs and the result was successful. But the app will 
not open on the three Macs we tested it on (though it does open on my Montery 
machine; it fails on Ventura and Sonoma.) I built with both LC 9.6.10 and LC 10 
dp 6 and while both appeared to be notarized (on her machine) a terminal 
command says it isn't:

  spctl -a -t exec -vvv /Path/To/Notarised.app:: rejected

We are at a loss. @Mattias: do we need an updated mrSignNotarizeHelper? Or is 
something else wrong?

Our next step is to try running the correct terminal commands manually. Does 
anyone know where I can find those? I think I read that the lesson needs 
revision?



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | 
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hyperactivesw.com%2F=05%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C0155f2f48eef41eaec7008dbc927cbad%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638324945008580783%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=xI5%2F18BYMNicJ8%2FTR%2B8Ul%2FP2QYWQAKm%2Bh%2FnsJlwp9uY%3D=0


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Re: Can't codesign Mac app

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

Jacqueline,

I had a similar problem recently.  There were a couple of problems I had to 
fix.  My error occurred during the notarization step after code signing.

One problem was that somehow my Mac was NOT a trusted device for the Apple ID I 
was using for development.
Verify that your Apple ID is trusted at 
appleid.apple.com for your account under devices.  
You must click on the specific device “button" to find out.  Just seeing it 
listed is not enough.

Despite the device not being trusted for the account, the Apple developer 
website let me think I’d created an app-specific password. I hadn’t succeed, 
but my lack of experience prevented me from realizing that the second step of 
the process is getting the actual password back from Apple and copying it down. 
 I didn’t get anything, no error message, so in my ignorance I thought the seed 
string I’d typed in WAS the password. So, I did NOT have an actual app-specific 
password to use in the NotaryTool commands or in the settings 
mrSignNotarizeHelper V4. This caused all commands dependent on an app-specific 
password to fail.

What solved it for me was to go to System Settings, sign out of the Apple 
account on the mac and sign back in again.
Then sign back in to appleid.apple.com, verify that 
my Mac was a trusted device on my developer account and then create a NEW 
app-specific password at the Apple developer website.
This time I saw the second part when they send the actual password. You need to 
copy this down because there’s no way to recover it again later.

Once I had the new app-specific password and my Mac was a trusted device in my 
developer account, the notaryTool commands and mrSignNotarizeHelper worked 
without errors.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo



On Oct 9, 2023, at 5:46 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I'm using Matthias' mrSignNotarizeHelper V3.1 with xCode 13.2.1 on Mac OS 
12.6.9 (Monterey) but get a script error. The same thing happens in both LC 
9.6.9 and 9.6.10 dp 6.

So then I tried notarizationHelper V4 but keep getting "no identity found" 
errors. I've tried all the suggestions in the lesson. This is pretty critical 
for me right now, does anyone know what's wrong? It was last signed 
successfully in May of this year.

I need to codesign today...

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | 
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hyperactivesw.com%2F=05%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C53ef9ca6c3554f11c41d08dbc9114fc7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638324848455267470%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=SSTeiAkNbmWvOHZJ3Xqd8i%2BIzsKu4Imav9%2FJ%2BReqRac%3D=0

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Re: OT - Mac Notarization Problem - Desperation setting in

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

Yes Matthias, I figured you had a good reason so I went back into the account 
and checked every single thing very carefully.  When I saw that my device was 
not trusted I figured THAT had to be fixed!!
Then I just followed your suggestion to redo everything and that’s when I 
learned about how the app-specific password actually works.
I don’t know if I’d have figured it out without your help!!

On Aug 25, 2023, at 5:17 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
 wrote:

And now you know why wanted to do a remote session to repeat all steps from 
creating app-specific pw to connecting to apples services. ;)
We could have found out sooner. ;) Unfortunately your security office 
prohibited the use of Teamviewer.


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Re: OT - Mac Notarization Problem - Desperation setting in

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

It’s just not my day.  The goofy links in my last post are just supposed to be 
references to the appleID site.  I don’t know how all the rest of that got put 
in there.
I’ve got to be more careful with my copy and paste I guess.



> On Aug 25, 2023, at 4:34 PM, Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>
> I think I’ve solved it.  I’m very grateful to Matthias both for his code 
> signing tool and his personal help with this problem.
>
> In the end it looks like the trouble was caused by a combination of my 
> limited experience with the process and a lack of helpful feedback from 
> Apple’s online tools at critical points.
>
> Here’s what happened.
> - I have 2 user accounts on my Mac that use different Apple IDs.
>
> - Somehow the one I use for the Apple developer account had made my Mac NOT a 
> trusted device for the Apple ID I use for development. I have no idea how 
> this happened.
> You can verify that your device is trusted at 
> appleid.apple.com<http://appleid.apple.com/> for your account under “Devices”.
>
> - Despite the device not being trusted for the account, the website let me 
> think I’d created an app-specific password. I hadn’t succeed, but my lack of 
> experience prevented me from realizing that the second step of the process is 
> getting the actual password back from Apple and copying it down.  I didn’t 
> get anything, no error message, so in my ignorance I thought the seed string 
> I’d typed in WAS the password. So, I did NOT have an actual app-specific 
> password to use in the NotaryTool commands. This caused all commands 
> dependent on an app-specific password to fail.
>
> What solved it for me was to go to System Settings, sign out of the Apple 
> account on the mac and sign back in again.
> Then sign back in to appleid.apple.com<http://appleid.apple.com/>, verify 
> that my Mac was a trusted device on my developer account and then create a 
> NEW app-specific password.
> This time I saw the second part when they send the actual password. I think 
> you need to copy this down because I don’t see any way to recover it again 
> later.
>
> Once I had the new app-specific password and my Mac was a trusted device in 
> my developer account, the notaryTool commands worked without errors.
>
> It all makes me long for the days when we could easily pass around Hypercard 
> stacks for the fun of it!!
>
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2023, at 2:38 PM, scott--- via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>
> I use Matthias' brilliant “mrSignNotarizeHelperV4.livecode” project regularly 
> and when I’ve had a problem in the past, ticking the “Debug mode” checkbox 
> (which places each step of the terminal commands in the message box when you 
> click the “Start” button) and then manually entering each of these steps as a 
> command line in Terminal.app, has been helpful in figuring out exactly what 
> step was failing. And sometimes, why.
>
> --
> Scott Morrow
>
> Elementary Software
> (Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
> web   https://elementarysoftware.com/
> email sc...@elementarysoftware.com
> booth1-360-734-4701
> --
>
> On Aug 25, 2023, at 8:24 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> Codesigning is (as you probably know) one of the tricker bits of building an 
> app for distribution (and I’ve certainly had my share of failures and 
> frustrations along the way). I am following this thread closely so if you 
> don’t mind sharing, I’d be interested in hearing what the solution is, once 
> you’ve found it.
>
> Cheers and best of luck,
> Mark
>
> On 25 Aug 2023, at 3:37 pm, Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>
> Thank you Heather,
>
> I’ll take a look.  Matthias Rebbe is also trying to help me find the problem.
>
> Regards,
> Tim Bleiler
>
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2023, at 4:13 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>
> Tim - codesigning is not my expertise but failed password credentials I deal 
> with frequently :). A possible gotcha is that your password is saved to your 
> keychain, and then, if you change it, the changed password is overwritten by 
> the saved password, invisibly since the password is hidden when entered. I 
> would recommend deleting all saved passwords from your keychain for your 
> certificates etc, and re-entering them to eliminate this possibility.
>
> Probably not the issue but you never know...
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
>
>
>
> On 24 Aug 2023, at 18:02, Timothy B

Re: OT - Mac Notarization Problem - Desperation setting in

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

I think I’ve solved it.  I’m very grateful to Matthias both for his code 
signing tool and his personal help with this problem.

In the end it looks like the trouble was caused by a combination of my limited 
experience with the process and a lack of helpful feedback from Apple’s online 
tools at critical points.

Here’s what happened.
- I have 2 user accounts on my Mac that use different Apple IDs.

- Somehow the one I use for the Apple developer account had made my Mac NOT a 
trusted device for the Apple ID I use for development. I have no idea how this 
happened.
You can verify that your device is trusted at 
appleid.apple.com<http://appleid.apple.com/> for your account under “Devices”.

- Despite the device not being trusted for the account, the website let me 
think I’d created an app-specific password. I hadn’t succeed, but my lack of 
experience prevented me from realizing that the second step of the process is 
getting the actual password back from Apple and copying it down.  I didn’t get 
anything, no error message, so in my ignorance I thought the seed string I’d 
typed in WAS the password. So, I did NOT have an actual app-specific password 
to use in the NotaryTool commands. This caused all commands dependent on an 
app-specific password to fail.

What solved it for me was to go to System Settings, sign out of the Apple 
account on the mac and sign back in again.
Then sign back in to appleid.apple.com<http://appleid.apple.com/>, verify that 
my Mac was a trusted device on my developer account and then create a NEW 
app-specific password.
This time I saw the second part when they send the actual password. I think you 
need to copy this down because I don’t see any way to recover it again later.

Once I had the new app-specific password and my Mac was a trusted device in my 
developer account, the notaryTool commands worked without errors.

It all makes me long for the days when we could easily pass around Hypercard 
stacks for the fun of it!!



On Aug 25, 2023, at 2:38 PM, scott--- via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I use Matthias' brilliant “mrSignNotarizeHelperV4.livecode” project regularly 
and when I’ve had a problem in the past, ticking the “Debug mode” checkbox 
(which places each step of the terminal commands in the message box when you 
click the “Start” button) and then manually entering each of these steps as a 
command line in Terminal.app, has been helpful in figuring out exactly what 
step was failing. And sometimes, why.

--
Scott Morrow

Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
web   
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Felementarysoftware.com%2F=05%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7Ccc7afb2eab1b4bcb60b608dba59aa569%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638285855863548154%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=%2Fk0TjFvUmYt2BZ9CqydNyA9ZZx34rwuZC3FiprBPQ4s%3D=0
email sc...@elementarysoftware.com
booth1-360-734-4701
--

On Aug 25, 2023, at 8:24 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Hi Tim,

Codesigning is (as you probably know) one of the tricker bits of building an 
app for distribution (and I’ve certainly had my share of failures and 
frustrations along the way). I am following this thread closely so if you don’t 
mind sharing, I’d be interested in hearing what the solution is, once you’ve 
found it.

Cheers and best of luck,
Mark

On 25 Aug 2023, at 3:37 pm, Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Thank you Heather,

I’ll take a look.  Matthias Rebbe is also trying to help me find the problem.

Regards,
Tim Bleiler



On Aug 25, 2023, at 4:13 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Tim - codesigning is not my expertise but failed password credentials I deal 
with frequently :). A possible gotcha is that your password is saved to your 
keychain, and then, if you change it, the changed password is overwritten by 
the saved password, invisibly since the password is hidden when entered. I 
would recommend deleting all saved passwords from your keychain for your 
certificates etc, and re-entering them to eliminate this possibility.

Probably not the issue but you never know...

Best Regards,

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livecode.com%2F=05%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7Ccc7afb2eab1b4bcb60b608dba59aa569%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638285855863548154%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=Eaw78gb3oD9j4XuzyHu%2FdyRRerM%2FT0GunR2oGocDSzM%3D=0
 
<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livecode.com%2F=05%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7Ccc7afb2eab1b4bcb60b608dba59aa569%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C6382858

Re: OT - Mac Notarization Problem - Desperation setting in

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

Thank you Heather,

I’ll take a look.  Matthias Rebbe is also trying to help me find the problem.

Regards,
Tim Bleiler



> On Aug 25, 2023, at 4:13 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>
> Tim - codesigning is not my expertise but failed password credentials I deal 
> with frequently :). A possible gotcha is that your password is saved to your 
> keychain, and then, if you change it, the changed password is overwritten by 
> the saved password, invisibly since the password is hidden when entered. I 
> would recommend deleting all saved passwords from your keychain for your 
> certificates etc, and re-entering them to eliminate this possibility.
>
> Probably not the issue but you never know...
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> http://www.livecode.com/
>
>
>
>> On 24 Aug 2023, at 18:02, Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I believe the problem I’m having is either on Apple’s end or something with 
>> my local configuration but Apple has not been very helpful and I’m running 
>> out of ideas, so I’m turning to the wealth of experience on this list in 
>> desperation.
>>
>> I’ve been using the lessons from  Matthias Rebbe and V4 of his handy 
>> mrSignNotarizeHelper stack.
>> Code signing seems to work fine but when I get to the Notarization step I 
>> always get an
>> "Error: HTTP status code: 401. Invalid credentials. Username or password is 
>> incorrect.
>>
>> I’m on an M1 Mac with OS 13.4.1, Xcode 14.3.1 is installed, Livecode 9.6.9.
>>
>> So far, this is what I’ve tried with the same result
>>
>> 1) Verified developer account in good status with Apple
>> 2) Multiple checks of my credentials (Apple ID, team ID, app-specific 
>> password) on Apple's developer and ID sites,
>> 3) Multiple checks of my credentials in the parameters I’m using
>> 4) Setting up a new app specific password on my account
>> 5) Trying with a different Livecode application
>> 6 Trying everything manually in Terminal. (What is apparent is any 
>> subcommands of NotaryTool (e.g. submit, store-credentials) using my 
>> credentials fail with the same error.
>>
>> 7) Repeat everything on a brand new user account on my Mac
>> 8) Sought help through devprogr...@apple.com<mailto:devprogr...@apple.com>
>>
>>
>> I’ve done codesigning and notarization many times before with the same 
>> developer account with no issues.
>> What’s new here for me is using NotaryTool and the app-specific password.
>>
>> I realize this is a long shot but I’m stuck, so it would be great if anyone 
>> has any suggestions for solving this problem (even some detail I may have 
>> missed in the steps I’ve already taken)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
>> Instructional Designer, HSIT
>> University at Buffalo
>>
>> ___
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
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OT - Mac Notarization Problem - Desperation setting in

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

Hi all,

I believe the problem I’m having is either on Apple’s end or something with my 
local configuration but Apple has not been very helpful and I’m running out of 
ideas, so I’m turning to the wealth of experience on this list in desperation.

I’ve been using the lessons from  Matthias Rebbe and V4 of his handy 
mrSignNotarizeHelper stack.
Code signing seems to work fine but when I get to the Notarization step I 
always get an
"Error: HTTP status code: 401. Invalid credentials. Username or password is 
incorrect.

I’m on an M1 Mac with OS 13.4.1, Xcode 14.3.1 is installed, Livecode 9.6.9.

So far, this is what I’ve tried with the same result

1) Verified developer account in good status with Apple
2) Multiple checks of my credentials (Apple ID, team ID, app-specific password) 
on Apple's developer and ID sites,
3) Multiple checks of my credentials in the parameters I’m using
4) Setting up a new app specific password on my account
5) Trying with a different Livecode application
6 Trying everything manually in Terminal. (What is apparent is any subcommands 
of NotaryTool (e.g. submit, store-credentials) using my credentials fail with 
the same error.

7) Repeat everything on a brand new user account on my Mac
8) Sought help through devprogr...@apple.com


I’ve done codesigning and notarization many times before with the same 
developer account with no issues.
What’s new here for me is using NotaryTool and the app-specific password.

I realize this is a long shot but I’m stuck, so it would be great if anyone has 
any suggestions for solving this problem (even some detail I may have missed in 
the steps I’ve already taken)

Thanks,

Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Standard Plan Pricing Confusion

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

The pricing for the standard plan looks confusing and inconsistent when first 
encountered. It’s also further complicated by the "add on" options.

There are 2 add ons:
email support
Pro Package (Device Debugging, code optimization tool, the network layer (tsNet 
library), iOS accessory access, pdf library). The info box on this still 
references the Community and Indy licenses which supposedly don’t exist.

Hopefully I have this figured out right. If I’m wrong it could reflect poorly 
on me or the plans ;-) 
Here’s the rounded-off pricing if you just buy deployment options. After the 
first platform you can substitute 1 of the 2 add on options for platform in 
each of these tiers. 

1 platform = $300
2 platforms = $500 ($200 more)
3 platforms = $900 ($400 more)
4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more)
5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more)
6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more)
All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more)

Here’s the rounded off per platform/options pricing for each tier. 
This looks like it makes slightly more sense than when it’s listed the other 
way.
1 platform = $300
2 platforms = $250
3 platforms = $300
4 platforms = $250
5 platforms = $300
6 platforms = $300
All 7 platforms + the 2 add ons = $222

This issue was brought up previously by Sean Cole. Jacqueline Landman Gay 
suggested that it might be tied to the popularity of specific platforms.   
Here’s how she explained it. "The way I figure it, each platform is $300. But 
since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get a $100 
discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for 
4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount.” Yes, apparently, but why?  
The popular desktops/ mobile bundle? Why then are the add ons priced the same?  
Is there really equivalent value there? Number 7 is obviously discounted for a 
buy everything tier. That’s OK, I guess.

The problem with Jacqueline’s explanation is that it doesn’t matter which 
platforms or add ons you select, the same pricing pattern persists.  I can 
justify different prices for different platform deployments and different 
options, but this inconsistent pattern could be hard to explain to prospective 
users and business accountants to whom we have to justify purchases. Jacqueline 
may be right about the reasons but these are “hidden” bundle options based on 
an assumption of what the user is likely to want. It also can make some 
combinations that are probably much harder to justify/explain than others. 

While I can come up with some other explanations for this and a case could be 
made that it has a lot of flexibility, I wonder if a more transparent 
pricing/bundling/discount structure might be better.

Any chance we can get some clarification on the rationale behind the pricing to 
help us with our purchasing requests? 


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Re: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition?

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

That’s true Mike and I’ve looked into it for my own benefit from time to time 
over the years.  What I was suggesting was some formal support from the company 
to facilitate contributions to the IDE going forward.  I never attempted much 
in the IDE because I’m not comfortable with my understanding of its design.  
Maybe I missed some information about it somewhere.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:43 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

You could always get at the IDE. You still can. Hopefully that won't
change, because there are plenty of times where something is broken and it
takes forever to get it fixed.


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Re: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition?

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

I’m afraid I have to agree with Andre that if people didn’t contribute before, 
with Livecode Ltd. overseeing the process, they’re not going to now.  A large 
part of the problem is that there just aren’t very many of us with the time and 
skills to make contributions to the engine.

Like Sean, I’m wondering about the status of LCB and widgets. This seemed like 
a considerable effort to facilitate community contributions and it would be 
unfortunate not to leverage this somehow going forward. If this architecture 
were to remain and be enhanced perhaps the company could offer discounts on 
subscriptions in exchange for contributions. Maybe a dedicated section of the 
forums listing and discussing features that might be added.  Also, why not keep 
the IDE “open” in some sense?  If a little more guidance were provided on the 
design of the IDE I think there are a lot of us that have the scripting skills 
to improve it.

Some ideas along these lines might have more chance of success than a “go it 
alone” community open source effort.

Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The main reasons I stopped contributing were:
> No easy support for LiveCode script as it was all in binary so versioning
> was non-existent.
> Life cycle between a pull request, merge and deployment
> 
> The dictionary was the only place I was able to properly contribute. But it
> still sucked a lot. And was inconsistent between the Doc Viewer and the Doc
> panel in the script editor. I kind-of got fed up with all of it. The new AI
> thing is cool. But it would be good to have a good portal for submitting
> updates and improving the quality of the Guide/Dictionary.
> 
> Liking where LC10 is heading. I was an outspoken naysayer of Open Sourcing.
> TBH, I didn't understand the need. I liked it a bit more when it happened.
> I definitely liked peeking into the core and getting a better understanding
> of how stuff like the datagrid worked and other bits and bobs.
> 
> But I am happier now it's gone back into the hands of LCLtd. It makes much
> more sense.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if a new SDK is being implemented if it's now no
> longer open source. Or if Widgets and LCB will remain the main way in
> (which is probably fine).
> 
> Sean
> *Pi *
> 
> On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 13:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they
>> didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the
>> necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people
>> didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened.
>> 
>> On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Here are my thoughts on this - and a request.
>>> 
>>> Yes - it’s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly
>>> struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the
>>> next level and they need more revenue to do that.
>>> 
>>> The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this.
>> Personally
>>> I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the
>> projects I
>>> work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially
>> by
>>> a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue
>>> with developing with the community edition and help build an open source
>>> community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively
>> easy,
>>> the latter a lot of work.
>>> 
>>> I’m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source
>>> products  that I can use, so how to have both an open source language,
>> and
>>> the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode
>> Ltd?
>>> As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to
>>> take control and responsibility for the core language.
>>> 
>>> There are a number of options with regard to future language development,
>>> that would put the language on an even par with other open source
>>> languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It
>>> would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those.
>>> 
>>> How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We
>>> can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and
>>> discuss the opportunities this new environment presents?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Schedule a call with me
>>> On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
 
 
> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what
> HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical
> artefact, 

Re: this me?

[Timothy Bleiler]

This is an interesting discussion. For my 2 cents worth, I'm currently in favor 
of 'the effective behavior of me' but I'm curious why it's needed.

What circumstances require a means of determining the control that provides the 
behavior script? Since behaviors were introduced, I've always thought of them 
as a flexible way to extend a script. In that case, any reference to me is 
specific to the control with the attached behavior and you can safely use me 
to refer to the control using the behavior script. I haven't thought of any 
reason to refer back to the control that provides the behavior script.

So, to the extent that it might effect preferences for the syntax, what are 
some examples of how this would be used?


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo


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Re: this me?

[Timothy Bleiler]

On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Timothy Bleiler wrote:
 
 So, to the extent that it might effect preferences for the syntax, what are 
 some examples of how this would be used?

Too early in the morning. Just to be clear and avoid prosecution by the grammar 
police - to the extent that it might AFFECT preferences…

More importantly, for those following along, there is a parallel discussion 
about this on the forums in Engine Contributors under the subject 
Feature_Inherited_Parentscripts. Trevor Devore described one example of how 
this could be useful.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo


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Re: this me?

[Timothy Bleiler]

On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:44 AM, Mike Kerner wrote:

 The effective behavior in no way implies B or A when reading it.  To
 me, anyway, it implies the script, not the container or the container's
 name.


Yes, it seems to have a more narrow application than some of the other 
suggestions. I can see how it might imply a reference to the script not the 
control. However, we set the behavior to a button reference, so behavior 
implies a control reference not a script reference. We don't set the behavior 
of control x to the script of button y. 

This discussion brings out some of the challenges and opportunities created by 
the new chained behaviors beyond the original, simpler case of a control with 
one behavior attached. In that case, you can write Get the name of the 
behavior of me and you have the behavior reference. But with chained behaviors 
I assume that only gives you the first behavior control in the chain. I think 
that's illustrated by Trevor's example in the forum post if I'm following it 
correctly.

So the problem comes down to how we think of chained behaviors. On one hand, we 
may view all the behavior scripts from a chain as being part of a single 
script attached to a control. Then, all the syntax using me, effective etc. are 
based on or refer to the final owner of all the behaviors. That's the mental 
model the syntax supports up through version 6.1.1. However, more flexibility 
is opened up if we have syntax that simultaneously allows us to think of the 
chained behaviors as a modified message path.  In a modified message path 
model we need to know which control in the chain we are in at a given time 
and its behavior, card or stack reference. Given a need to identify where we 
are in the chain I can see why the somewhat awkward this me was invented. I 
don't think any of the other syntax suggestions unambiguously identify where we 
are in the behavior chain at a given point of script execution.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Re: this me?

[Timothy Bleiler]

On Aug 8, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 Having made that plea for simplicity in programming, please allow me to 
 complicate this now:  :)
 
 
 Taking the idea of scriptObject further, for the rarer-but-not-unthinkable 
 need to know all of the objects in an object's message path, might we 
 consider extending this further to include:
 
  the effective scriptObjects of objDescriptor
 
 ...which would return a return-delimited list of all objects in the message 
 path of objDescriptor?


The key to this issue is recognizing the parallel conceptualizations of chained 
behaviors; as additions to the owners script AND/OR as a variation of the 
message path. I didn't appreciate this at first. It reminds me of the long 
discussion about groups/backgrounds/shared controls from a while back. So after 
further reflection, I agree with ScriptObject.  

I also agree that if we add this extension we should also include some way to 
get a list of all the controls in the chain.  The effective scriptObjects of 
objDescriptor would be OK. I'm mildly concerned that it's not quite a 
consistent use of the effective modifier in the sense that there is no other 
use of it that returns a list. The Effective modifier returns a single value 
from a search through an inheritance path. If that minor difference is a 
problem, maybe another property like scriptObjectChain or scriptObjectPath 
would work. 


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Are the conference videos still available anywhere?

[Timothy Bleiler]

Does anyone know if  there is still a way to access the conference videos? 

The link I was sent does not work anymore.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo


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Re: Are the conference videos still available anywhere?

[Timothy Bleiler]

Thanks Matthias, that worked!

Tim


On Aug 2, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Matthias Rebbe wrote:

 Hi Tim,
 
 if you are using the URL from the simulast info email, then use the URL 
 without the index.html
 
 That should work.
 
 Regards,
 
 Matthias
 
 Am 02.08.2013 um 15:51 schrieb Timothy Bleiler blei...@buffalo.edu:
 
 Does anyone know if  there is still a way to access the conference videos? 
 
 The link I was sent does not work anymore.
 
 
 Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
 Instructional Designer, HSIT
 University at Buffalo
 
 
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Problems with Padding and the Properties

[Timothy Bleiler]

I'm running into some problems with the padding property.

I'm not familiar with it and haven't used it but it's being returned with the 
Properties of fields of all types and is causing me some trouble.

Here are the problems:

When I get the properties of a field, the padding is included but appears to be 
the rect of the field.
If I try to get the padding of the field directly i.e. get the padding of fld 1 
- I get the message the object does not have this property

It looks to me like something is a bug but I don't know where the error is 
because I really don't know what the rules are for the padding property.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo


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Bug in Properties command in 6.1?

[Timothy Bleiler]

This looks like a bug to me.

Create a new stack
add a button and a list field

Set the button script to 

on mouseUp
   Get the properties of fld 1
   Put 2 into it [ HilitedLines ]
   Set the properties of fld 1 to it
end mouse up


Works in 5.5.4. In 6.1, the hilitedLines is empty after the properties of field 
1 are set.
Only tested on a Mac. 

Anyone else seeing this?


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Re: Bug in Properties command in 6.1?

[Timothy Bleiler]

I submitted a bug report 11060.

Tim


On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:31 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Timothy Bleiler blei...@buffalo.eduwrote:
 
 on mouseUp
   Get the properties of fld 1
   Put 2 into it [ HilitedLines ]
   Set the properties of fld 1 to it
 end mouse up
 
 
 I see the same thing here on my Mac.  In fact if you simply get the
 properties and immediately set them again without changing anything,
 hilitedlines ends up empty.
 
 Pete
 lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com
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Re: Bug in Properties command in 6.1?

[Timothy Bleiler]

Thanks Monte,

Is this something you can fix at the engine level or is it something we should 
work around when using the properties?

Tim


On Jul 18, 2013, at 5:16 PM, Monte Goulding wrote:

 
 On 19/07/2013, at 4:00 AM, Timothy Bleiler blei...@buffalo.edu wrote:
 
 I submitted a bug report 11060.
 
 Thanks Timothy
 
 None of my changes touched hilitedLines however we did introduce some 
 precedence ordering of setting properties that have side effects to try and 
 ensure that setting actually did set things correctly and I suspect this side 
 effect slipped by unnoticed. Basically the fact that it worked in 5.5.4 is a 
 fluke of luck based on the ordering of the keys of the array when processed. 
 I have a suspicion that ensuring text is set first will resolve it.
 
 Cheers
 
 --
 Monte Goulding
 
 M E R Goulding - software development services
 mergExt - There's an external for that!
 
 
 
 
 
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(OT) Software Patents and computer based instruction

[Timothy Bleiler]

Since there's been some discussion of software patents, I thought some  
of you in education might be interested in this.
Take a look at these patents from a company called Knowledge Factor. I  
can't believe any of these were granted. The patent process is clearly  
badly broken.



http://www.google.com/patents/US6921268 Method and system for  
knowledge assessment and learning incorporating feedback
http://www.google.com/patents/US8165518 Method and system for  
knowledge assessment using confidence-based measurement
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2012112389A1?cl=en System and method  
for adaptive knowledge assessment and learning



List of all patents from Knowledge Factor
http://www.knowledgefactor.com/Patent_Information


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Re: Creating a reusable object - Part 2

[Timothy Bleiler]

Hi Mark,

Glad you found my previous suggestions helpful. Let me offer something  
else for you to think about.


I agree with Jacqueline that if all you need to do is handle the  
resizeStack message, then the best approach is to catch the message at  
the stack level or the backscripts level. The backscripts level would  
be appropriate for handlers that you want to access from more than one  
stack. If you have a single stack design, then there would usually be  
no practical difference between placing a handler in the backscripts  
vs the stack level. Note that background groups and backscripts are  
very different. I think the similarity in their names often confuses  
people. One key difference is that backscripts do not need a specific  
current card control associated with them. The background and shared  
groups feature is usually the better choice for sharing actual  
controls across cards.


Since you said that you don't want your resizeStack handler on some  
cards in your stack that indicates that you have a stack feature  
associated with resizing that varies with the cards in the stack. That  
probably is not the best design for a variety of reasons. You should  
consider placing the cards that need a special response to stack  
resizing in one stack and putting the other cards in one or more other  
stacks. I'm guessing they have some key functional differences that  
might also suggest a multistack design. Check the User Guide for the  
discussions on substacks. That might help you get a cleaner, easier to  
debug and maintain architecture.


Finally, I just want to try and clarify the purpose of the  
SharedBehavior and BackgroundBehavior properties for you. The  
sharedBehavior property is a relatively recent addition that allows  
the sharing of groups of one or more controls across cards WITHOUT  
having the BackgroundBehavior set to true. Any group that is placed on  
multiple cards has SharedBehavior set to true and that's locked by the  
Livecode engine. It really doesn't do very much but allow the  
separation of the BackgroundBehavior features from shared groups. The  
BackgroundBehavior property has greater impact on your stacks because  
when it is true, the location of the group script in the message path  
is changed and the group is automatically placed on new cards. You can  
control the placement and removal of groups on cards in your scripts  
using the place and remove commands.



Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo


On Aug 9, 2012, at 12:37 AM, Mark Smith wrote:


This leaves the original group/object intact to respond to
(in this case resize) messages.



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Re: Creating a reusable object

[Timothy Bleiler]

On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:34 AM, Mark Smith wrote:

I make a new card. The graphic shows up (shouldn't have if I  
understand
shared group correctly). So, I try and delete the object from the  
second

card and it deletes it from the first card too.
So, looks like I have a shared object that behaves like a  
background, not a

reusable object that responds to messages.

Where did I screw up? Have tried this a few times and always get the  
same

result.


Setting BackgroundBehavior of a group to true does 2 major things.
1. When you create a new card, all of the groups on the current card  
whose backgroundBehavior is true will be placed on the new card. If  
you have a background group on multiple cards and want to remove it  
from one card but not others, you must select the group, then under  
the Object menu choose Remove Group.  You add a group to a card   
by selecting the Object menu and choosing your group from the Place  
Group sub menu. Do NOT use copy and paste to put the group on  
multiple cards, you will be creating new unique controls.


2. The script of a group with backgroundBehavior set to true is  
processed AFTER the card EXCEPT for messages that pass through  
controls within the group. It can get very confusing. If you're going  
to use backgrounds I'd suggest you play around with it until you think  
you understand it before doing a lot of coding.


There have been long discussions over the years about how each of us  
models this in our own heads. I've never heard of one that is simple  
but complete. With that said, one way to think of it is that a group  
with backgroundBehavior set to true is somewhat independent of any  
given card. You might even think of it as another card between the  
card and the stack.  You can have more than one group as a background  
on a card and the order their scripts are processed in the message  
path depends on the groups number relative to the other controls on  
the CURRENT card. They could be in a different order on another card!!  
Definitely, it can be a little tricky to get your head around! This  
article by Richard Gaskin might be of some help getting started. http://www.fourthworld.com/embassy/articles/revolution_message_path.html


Another option is to have a shared control that behaves like any other  
control on a card i.e. its script is processed like a control on the  
card not after the card and is not automatically placed on new cards.  
In this case, do NOT set the backgroundBehavior to true but instead  
just set SharedBehavior to true. Then, to use the group on multiple  
cards, go to the card where you want to use the group, select the  
Object menu and choose your group from the Place Group sub menu.  
Do NOT use copy and paste to put the group on multiple cards, you will  
be creating new unique controls.


Any group placed on more than one card will have its SharedBehavior  
set to true regardless of the value of its backgroundBehavior property.



Good luck!

Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Quicktime VR, Livecode and iOS

[Timothy Bleiler]

Hi,

Any suggestions for how to replace the Quicktime VR functionality in  
iOS for our Livecode programs?


The VR functionality appears to be gone in the latest versions of QT  
and in the mobile version.


There are some Javascript tools but I don't think I want to use the  
browser approach inside my Livecode app.


Thanks in advance for any help offered.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo


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Put into url Not working on Android

[Timothy Bleiler]

Hi,

I'm trying to do some work on Android.

Does anyone know why the following command would work fine from the  
desktop but not work in Android? . FYI, in this example it is a fake  
address.


put Test content goes here into url “ftp://123.456.78.901/ftptest.txt”

 Specifically has anyone had success with Put into URL on Android?  
If so, could you share the syntax or other hints?


I am able to access web sites using the GET command from the Andriod  
device but this FTP Put does not work from the emulator or actual  
Android devicesThe straightforward example found in the Android  
release notes is definitely not working for me. I've also tried  
several combinations of urlEncode, user names, passwords and an  
anonymous site with no luck.




Thanks,

Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Re: Controlling Graphic Effects in Scripts

[Timothy Bleiler]

Hi,

This is pretty weird. I was having trouble setting the dropShadow to  
empty. It seemed not to work sometimes. I've isolated the problem to  
this -


Create a button with the dropShadow property set from the property  
inspector.


Put this script into the button

on mouseUp
   get the Properties of me
  SET THE Dropshadow of me to it
end mouseUp

What I'm seeing is that commenting out the first line allows the  
dropShadow to be set to empty.

With the first line in, the dropShadow doesn't change.

Is this a bug? Or is there some reason for this?


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Re: Controlling Graphic Effects in Scripts

[Timothy Bleiler]

Wow I'm tired!

The script that doesn't work is supposed to be:

on mouseUp
  get the Properties of me
 set the Dropshadow of me to EMPTY
end mouseUp

The other one is obviously wrong.

Tim


On Aug 26, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Timothy Bleiler wrote:


Hi,

This is pretty weird. I was having trouble setting the dropShadow to  
empty. It seemed not to work sometimes. I've isolated the problem to  
this -


Create a button with the dropShadow property set from the property  
inspector.


Put this script into the button

on mouseUp
  get the Properties of me
 SET THE Dropshadow of me to it
end mouseUp

What I'm seeing is that commenting out the first line allows the  
dropShadow to be set to empty.

With the first line in, the dropShadow doesn't change.

Is this a bug? Or is there some reason for this?


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

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Controlling Graphic Effects in Scripts

[Timothy Bleiler]

Hi,

If I set one of the graphic effect properties like DropShadow to an  
appropriate array within a script how do I turn it back off within a  
script?


Set DropShadow of control x to empty   -- does not work

Set DropShadow of control x to none   -- does not work

Thanks,

Tim Bleiler

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Re: BackgroundBehavior Question OR a bug

[Timothy Bleiler]

Thanks Devin,

You are correct. I messed up and was running 4.5.2 on the Mac. So,  
what this means is that from 4.6 on backgroundBehavior = true for  
groups on 1 card is the expected behavior? Anyone know why this  
change was made? It seems like a pain in terms of message passing for  
groups that are intended to act like self contained controls rather  
than a shared resource on multiple cards.


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo



On Jun 15, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Devin Asay wrote:



On Jun 15, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Timothy Bleiler wrote:


Hi,

The backgroundBehavior property of groups appears to work differently
on Mac vs Windows, Livecode version 4.6.1. On Mac, backgroundBehavior
can be toggled between true and false at any time. On Windows
BackgroundBahavior must always be true IF the group is on more than
one card. If you try to change the BackgroundBehavior to false for a
group that is on more than one card on windows the engine throws an
error. On Mac, it can be changed with no problem. Am I missing
something or may this be a bug?


Hi Tim,

I'm not seeing this on Mac with LC 4.6.1. The checkbox to change the  
property is disabled if the group is on  1 card, and trying to set  
it to false in the message box does indeed throw an error. Might you  
perhaps have been running a slightly older version when this  
happened? As I recall, this change (enforcing backgroundBehavior =  
true on all groups placed on  1 card) only came into effect in 4.6.0.


Regards,

Devin


Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University






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