Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
For any techniques to succeed requires a willingness is that, participant have to closed minds (and the frequently associated clenched fists) can hold nothing value - just a tight grip on empty dogma that provides the ego with the illusion of certainty. Best, Keith.. On 30 Aug 2011, at 21:47, Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com wrote: Looks like a toolbox full of tools that specialize in opening locked boxes, one of the tools being the key that unlocks that particular box. That key, in this analogy, is the willingness of all those involved to change their minds if they have to, in order to get to the bottom of things. Bar that, and none of the other tools will work very well. Given that, any number of other tools might help. A great man once said, Virtually all of mankind's ills can be traced back to the human trait of being unwilling or unable to say, I might be mistaken. Wait, I said that!! Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/31/2011 12:32 PM, Keith Clarke wrote: For any techniques to succeed requires a willingness is that, participant have to closed minds (and the frequently associated clenched fists) can hold nothing value - just a tight grip on empty dogma that provides the ego with the illusion of certainty. All these marvellous tools presuppose the above. And to have the above means starting with children when they are 4-5-6 and NOT cramping their precious minds with the Gradgrind school of FACTS, but letting them flower in an environment conducive to their arriving at conclusions by themselves. Best, Keith.. On 30 Aug 2011, at 21:47, Bob Sneidarb...@twft.com wrote: Looks like a toolbox full of tools that specialize in opening locked boxes, one of the tools being the key that unlocks that particular box. That key, in this analogy, is the willingness of all those involved to change their minds if they have to, in order to get to the bottom of things. Bar that, and none of the other tools will work very well. Given that, any number of other tools might help. A great man once said, Virtually all of mankind's ills can be traced back to the human trait of being unwilling or unable to say, I might be mistaken. Wait, I said that!! Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:35 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: On 08/31/2011 12:32 PM, Keith Clarke wrote: For any techniques to succeed requires a willingness is that, participant have to closed minds (and the frequently associated clenched fists) can hold nothing value - just a tight grip on empty dogma that provides the ego with the illusion of certainty. All these marvellous tools presuppose the above. And to have the above means starting with children when they are 4-5-6 and NOT cramping their precious minds with the Gradgrind school of FACTS, but letting them flower in an environment conducive to their arriving at conclusions by themselves. *Everyone* has an opinion about how to increase intelligence, motivation or instructional success among school-aged children. No one actually knows how. According to the principle of supply and demand, these opinions have no value. There is an infinite supply of them and no particular demand. These are not matters for casual speculation. These are questions that can be resolved by scientific research. At the moment, no one actually knows how to solve these problems. Solutions might be devised. Hope springs eternal. Still, there's no reason to suppose a good answer even exists. Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: [OT] Mediocre Britain
This thread has got a little silly... Eric Idle probably has it all summed up in the last two lines of the 'galaxy song'.. and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth! Dixie On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:35 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: On 08/31/2011 12:32 PM, Keith Clarke wrote: For any techniques to succeed requires a willingness is that, participant have to closed minds (and the frequently associated clenched fists) can hold nothing value - just a tight grip on empty dogma that provides the ego with the illusion of certainty. All these marvellous tools presuppose the above. And to have the above means starting with children when they are 4-5-6 and NOT cramping their precious minds with the Gradgrind school of FACTS, but letting them flower in an environment conducive to their arriving at conclusions by themselves. *Everyone* has an opinion about how to increase intelligence, motivation or instructional success among school-aged children. No one actually knows how. According to the principle of supply and demand, these opinions have no value. There is an infinite supply of them and no particular demand. These are not matters for casual speculation. These are questions that can be resolved by scientific research. At the moment, no one actually knows how to solve these problems. Solutions might be devised. Hope springs eternal. Still, there's no reason to suppose a good answer even exists. Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 09/01/2011 01:28 AM, Timothy Miller wrote: On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:35 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: On 08/31/2011 12:32 PM, Keith Clarke wrote: For any techniques to succeed requires a willingness is that, participant have to closed minds (and the frequently associated clenched fists) can hold nothing value - just a tight grip on empty dogma that provides the ego with the illusion of certainty. All these marvellous tools presuppose the above. And to have the above means starting with children when they are 4-5-6 and NOT cramping their precious minds with the Gradgrind school of FACTS, but letting them flower in an environment conducive to their arriving at conclusions by themselves. *Everyone* has an opinion about how to increase intelligence, motivation or instructional success among school-aged children. No one actually knows how. According to the principle of supply and demand, these opinions have no value. There is an infinite supply of them and no particular demand. These are not matters for casual speculation. These are questions that can be resolved by scientific research. At the moment, no one actually knows how to solve these problems. Solutions might be devised. Hope springs eternal. Still, there's no reason to suppose a good answer even exists. Kurt Hahn and A.S. Neill certainly had good answers. Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
Keith, Thanks for the info on Wicked problems and Compendium. What is IBIS in this context? I too am intrigued at the thought of applying LiveCode tools to such problems. Strengths of LiveCode that seem relevant include: rapid development, relative shallow learning curve for new users, reasonable cost, breadth of tools from desktop to mobile to server, growing number of 3rd party products and generous supportive community. Given the importance and challenges of Wicked and Super Wicked problems (see below), I hope that LiveCode can play a role, though it seems like an immense endeavor, requiring the talents of many. Jim L. Kelly Levin, Benjamin Cashore, Steven Bernstein and Graeme Auld introduced in 2007 the distinction between wicked and super wicked problems.[23] ... They defined super wicked problems as having the following additional characteristics: Time is running out. No central authority. Those seeking to solve the problem are also causing it. Hyperbolic discounting occurs While the items that define a wicked problem relate to the problem itself, the items that define a super wicked problem relate to the agent trying to solve it. Global warming is considered as super wicked problem by others.[1] from http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem On Aug 29, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Keith Clarke wrote: I wonder if there is any opportunity to apply the obvious intelligence within the LiveCode community (and LiveCode technologies) to help analyse and/or resolve some of these wicked problems facing society - where there is no magic bullet and the 'best' answer is always the least of all evils. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem Anyone interested in how technology is being applied to wicked problems, IBIS and the background information on Compendium provide some interesting starting points compendium.open.ac.uk/institute/ Best, Keith.. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
In this context, IBIS = Issue-Based Information System. Compendium is a great general hypertext-based mapping tool - useful for building concept-maps and mind-maps - with the nifty feature of transclusion (define nodes once, use them often across the maps). It is used by many for dialogue-mapping. In the hands of a good facilitator, this technique can help stakeholders to rise above the emotional 'muck and bullets' of wicked problems, to create shared areas of agreement, revealing the facts, pros and cons of debates. If this forum was the place to debate (with the power to resolve) education system design options - rather than a means to vent OT frustrations amongst friends(!) dialogue-mapping could be used help to distill out the real dimensions of the wicked problem(s) involved. That could enable areas of agreement to be defined - together with clearly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty for further work. The nature of wicked problems means that their always a work-in-progress - which doesn't sit well with every kind of people - which is, in itself, another wicked problem! Best, Keith.. On 30 Aug 2011, at 16:38, James Little littlejam...@mac.com wrote: Keith, Thanks for the info on Wicked problems and Compendium. What is IBIS in this context? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/29/2011 06:08 AM, Timothy Miller wrote: On Aug 28, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Don't EVEN get me started on my students... Judy I'll get you started, Judy. Maybe the catharsis will do you good. Both my kids went to a community college, and both got pretty good educations. Both have been successful academically after completing community college. This is a summary of their many reports. Say my kid signs up for English 5. Because it satisfies a general education requirement, it draws a lot of students. You're not allowed to take it unless you've passed the English placement examination. Only about half the incoming first-years actually pass the English placement examination. English 5 starts out with 100 students enrolled. (These are representative numbers, not an exact case.) Of these 50 will never attempt to read the textbook, take notes, or turn in any homework. Many of these students are sponging off Mom, partying a lot. If they're male, they are probably smoking a lot of dope and playing Call of Duty all night. They've enrolled partly to avoid parental displeasure, to avoid getting a job, to remain eligible for parental health insurance, and possibly to qualify for student loans. Some have enrolled with the naive belief that they will get good jobs some day if they merely enroll. The real problem, here in Bulgaria, at least, is that the spongers are allowed up to 4 retakes spread over a year; and it is understood that, eventually, everybody will pass. W day comes about half way through the semester. If you withdraw from the course before W day, you get a W instead of an F without any hit to your grade point average, though you don't get credit for the course. The week before W day, about seventy students show up for the course. The rest have stopped attending, with our without Ws. The week after W day, about forty students show up for the course. Of the remaining forty students, fifteen will fail the course. Why they didn't take W's when they had the chance is an ongoing mystery. Some of these were doomed to fail, by virtue of poor educational success in grades K-12. The twenty-five who pass have made some effort to study. About eight of the original 100 will get A's. They have made at least a modest effort to study and do homework. The professor, in most cases, has bravely maintained some kind of academic standard. She has taught to the students who have some desire to learn. Many of the students who pass the course will get Cs and Ds, representing little if any mastery of the material. Surely if they have 'little if any mastery of the material' they should simply fail? This has been going on for years at my local community college, and likely many others like it around the country and maybe in the U.K., too. It is the unintended consequence of teaching first graders (and their parents) that the whole purpose of the first grade is to prepare every student for college. I don't know where you teach, Judy. Cal State Fullerton? I hope it's better there than at my local community college. Unfortunately, you do get some of the students who got Cs and Ds at community college. I have an M.A. from SIUC, and was very interested to see your tiered approach; Universities and Community Colleges. However, in Britain that system has been destroyed [and, previously, it many more layers than yours] in that everything from a community college, through polytechnics are now called Universities; giving people distorted expectations, and losing the strengths that were quite different from those of traditional universities of the polytechnics and technical colleges. Cheers, Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: [OT] Mediocre Britain
This topic has been quite interesting and narrow minded ... Education systems in my experience has nothing to with the ability to grasp computing or software development. I have been involved with a group of senior software developers for over 20 years in projects for manufacturing to high tech military. The best in the group have never been from any higher education route , no college , no university , no diploma or degree in sight. These Morons from Britain as some of you have suggested would out code the best of us for sure ! Don't put too much faith in any countries education system , people can still succeed to advanced levels without it. Camm -Original Message- From: use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Richmond Mathewson Sent: 29 August 2011 07:28 To: How to use LiveCode Subject: Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain On 08/29/2011 06:08 AM, Timothy Miller wrote: On Aug 28, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Don't EVEN get me started on my students... Judy I'll get you started, Judy. Maybe the catharsis will do you good. Both my kids went to a community college, and both got pretty good educations. Both have been successful academically after completing community college. This is a summary of their many reports. Say my kid signs up for English 5. Because it satisfies a general education requirement, it draws a lot of students. You're not allowed to take it unless you've passed the English placement examination. Only about half the incoming first-years actually pass the English placement examination. English 5 starts out with 100 students enrolled. (These are representative numbers, not an exact case.) Of these 50 will never attempt to read the textbook, take notes, or turn in any homework. Many of these students are sponging off Mom, partying a lot. If they're male, they are probably smoking a lot of dope and playing Call of Duty all night. They've enrolled partly to avoid parental displeasure, to avoid getting a job, to remain eligible for parental health insurance, and possibly to qualify for student loans. Some have enrolled with the naive belief that they will get good jobs some day if they merely enroll. The real problem, here in Bulgaria, at least, is that the spongers are allowed up to 4 retakes spread over a year; and it is understood that, eventually, everybody will pass. W day comes about half way through the semester. If you withdraw from the course before W day, you get a W instead of an F without any hit to your grade point average, though you don't get credit for the course. The week before W day, about seventy students show up for the course. The rest have stopped attending, with our without Ws. The week after W day, about forty students show up for the course. Of the remaining forty students, fifteen will fail the course. Why they didn't take W's when they had the chance is an ongoing mystery. Some of these were doomed to fail, by virtue of poor educational success in grades K-12. The twenty-five who pass have made some effort to study. About eight of the original 100 will get A's. They have made at least a modest effort to study and do homework. The professor, in most cases, has bravely maintained some kind of academic standard. She has taught to the students who have some desire to learn. Many of the students who pass the course will get Cs and Ds, representing little if any mastery of the material. Surely if they have 'little if any mastery of the material' they should simply fail? This has been going on for years at my local community college, and likely many others like it around the country and maybe in the U.K., too. It is the unintended consequence of teaching first graders (and their parents) that the whole purpose of the first grade is to prepare every student for college. I don't know where you teach, Judy. Cal State Fullerton? I hope it's better there than at my local community college. Unfortunately, you do get some of the students who got Cs and Ds at community college. I have an M.A. from SIUC, and was very interested to see your tiered approach; Universities and Community Colleges. However, in Britain that system has been destroyed [and, previously, it many more layers than yours] in that everything from a community college, through polytechnics are now called Universities; giving people distorted expectations, and losing the strengths that were quite different from those of traditional universities of the polytechnics and technical colleges. Cheers, Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3863 - Release Date: 08/28/11
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
Eh?? :-) Bob On Aug 28, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: If sschool kids cannot spell ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/29/2011 06:50 PM, Camm wrote: This topic has been quite interesting and narrow minded ... Wow; how to be apparently positive while squishing at the same time . .. :) Education systems in my experience has nothing to with the ability to grasp computing or software development. I have been involved with a group of senior software developers for over 20 years in projects for manufacturing to high tech military. The best in the group have never been from any higher education route , no college , no university , no diploma or degree in sight. These Morons from Britain as some of you have suggested would out code the best of us for sure ! Education systems have never served anybody but the mediocre and governments that want to fool their electorate into thinking they are taking part in the democratic process. Educators, on the other hand, if relatively unfettered by those systems can do great things. My computer programming has come about, largely, in spite of my education; however 2 Maths teachers 'pricked' me in different ways so effectively that programming has become a life-long passion. However, as educational systems seem to become ever more conformist and mediocre, there is a decreasing chance that good educators can find enough elbow room to work within those systems to good effect. Certainly, the state system in Britain (and I, for clarity, followed up an experimental state school with 3 private schools) is NOT stimulating, encouraging and allowing exploration; what it is (and this is true of the private sector increasingly) is an exam mill. Don't put too much faith in any countries education system , people can still succeed to advanced levels without it. Of course; God bless you . . . :) Camm -Original Message- From: use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Richmond Mathewson Sent: 29 August 2011 07:28 To: How to use LiveCode Subject: Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain On 08/29/2011 06:08 AM, Timothy Miller wrote: On Aug 28, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Don't EVEN get me started on my students... Judy I'll get you started, Judy. Maybe the catharsis will do you good. Both my kids went to a community college, and both got pretty good educations. Both have been successful academically after completing community college. This is a summary of their many reports. Say my kid signs up for English 5. Because it satisfies a general education requirement, it draws a lot of students. You're not allowed to take it unless you've passed the English placement examination. Only about half the incoming first-years actually pass the English placement examination. English 5 starts out with 100 students enrolled. (These are representative numbers, not an exact case.) Of these 50 will never attempt to read the textbook, take notes, or turn in any homework. Many of these students are sponging off Mom, partying a lot. If they're male, they are probably smoking a lot of dope and playing Call of Duty all night. They've enrolled partly to avoid parental displeasure, to avoid getting a job, to remain eligible for parental health insurance, and possibly to qualify for student loans. Some have enrolled with the naive belief that they will get good jobs some day if they merely enroll. The real problem, here in Bulgaria, at least, is that the spongers are allowed up to 4 retakes spread over a year; and it is understood that, eventually, everybody will pass. W day comes about half way through the semester. If you withdraw from the course before W day, you get a W instead of an F without any hit to your grade point average, though you don't get credit for the course. The week before W day, about seventy students show up for the course. The rest have stopped attending, with our without Ws. The week after W day, about forty students show up for the course. Of the remaining forty students, fifteen will fail the course. Why they didn't take W's when they had the chance is an ongoing mystery. Some of these were doomed to fail, by virtue of poor educational success in grades K-12. The twenty-five who pass have made some effort to study. About eight of the original 100 will get A's. They have made at least a modest effort to study and do homework. The professor, in most cases, has bravely maintained some kind of academic standard. She has taught to the students who have some desire to learn. Many of the students who pass the course will get Cs and Ds, representing little if any mastery of the material. Surely if they have 'little if any mastery of the material' they should simply fail? This has been going on for years at my local community college, and likely many others like it around the country and maybe in the U.K., too. It is the unintended consequence of teaching first graders (and their parents) that the whole purpose of the first grade is to prepare every student for college. I don't know where
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/29/2011 07:52 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: Eh?? :-) Bob On Aug 28, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: If sschool kids cannot spell You got me there; by the seat of the pants . . . :) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
Some define success in education as making sure every child has the same success as every other. Others define it as giving any child the best education they can. This is why some of you say public education is failing, and others say it is succeeding. You are defining your terms differently. I personally think it an impossible task to educate all children equally, as like it or not, some are just plain smarter than others. Also, some are more disciplined than others. And some are so lazy and irresponsible and unintelligent that no matter how good the educational system, you can never get those children to perform at the level of the ones naturally born with a sharp intellect and a will to do as good as they can at whatever is put in front of them. Anyone who has put multiple children through school would probably attest to this. That last bit will piss some people off to no end because they define equality as equal in essence whereas others define equality as equal in standing. Again, the disagreement is about definitions. But I know why I was mediocre in school. I was lazy. Pure and simple. Teachers tried to get me to work harder, and when I liked the subject, I did pretty well, but I was only going to do as much as I needed to in order to get them to leave me alone, and then I would go back to my daydreaming. So I speak from first hand experience. I failed my 6th grade math exit exam. I then, after summer school to get me past it, went on to ace Algebra and Geometry and any of the advanced mathematics. How can that be you say? Simple. I HATED memorizing, and a lot of 6th grade math was about memorizing and problem solving over and over again. Algebra and Geometry was about understanding how things worked, and that interested me to no end, because I had a teacher who showed how that kind of math applied to understanding aspects of nature that interested me. That there are students in all ages that do not do well in school is in my estimation a very bad way to measure success, because it ignores to the point of contempt what all men with an ounce of honest sense have known forever, and that is that some people are better at some things than other people. Some dogs are smarter than other dogs. Some are stronger, some are faster, some are whatever. That doesn't make them less the creatures that they are, just different or rather unique. I personally believe that every person is gifted in one way or another. The key to success for any public education system is IMHO to find out what the strengths of any student is fairly early on, and then focus on their strengths, while not letting up on the basics, reading writing arithmetic. And the more we can get social indoctrination out of the public schools, the better off we will be. But at this point we will have to fight civil wars to make that happen. But any attempt to make all children equal is bound to lead, by way of initial and regular disappointment, to dumbing down the curriculum, so that success appears to have been achieved, and administrators can then keep their jobs, without which they will lose their homes, and possibly their families. Bob Contrary to urban legend, public education is not deteriorating. During the imaginary good old days, students were usually segregated by race, class, income, or address. Students who were not learning successfully were generally kept out of public view. Expectations for such students were low. Unsuccessful students often dropped out of school when they were still relatively young. Truancy laws were not strictly enforced in downscale and nonwhite neighborhoods, nor were child labor laws. For as long as public education has existed, there have been large numbers of sixth graders who read at the second grade level. And so on...snip ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/29/2011 08:34 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: Some define success in education as making sure every child has the same success as every other. Others define it as giving any child the best education they can. This is why some of you say public education is failing, and others say it is succeeding. You are defining your terms differently. I personally think it an impossible task to educate all children equally, as like it or not, some are just plain smarter than others. Also, some are more disciplined than others. And some are so lazy and irresponsible and unintelligent that no matter how good the educational system, you can never get those children to perform at the level of the ones naturally born with a sharp intellect and a will to do as good as they can at whatever is put in front of them. Anyone who has put multiple children through school would probably attest to this. 'Equality' and 'Equally' are words that should be popped in the cupboard for 1 or 2 generations. Words and phrases that might be more useful are stimulating each child so that they can maximise their full potential. That last bit will piss some people off to no end because they define equality as equal in essence whereas others define equality as equal in standing. Again, the disagreement is about definitions. But I know why I was mediocre in school. I was lazy. Pure and simple. So was I; but one could argue that both Thee and Me were lazy because the educational systems we were in failed to provide the right hooks to get our mental juices flowing. Teachers tried to get me to work harder, and when I liked the subject, I did pretty well, but I was only going to do as much as I needed to in order to get them to leave me alone, and then I would go back to my daydreaming. So I speak from first hand experience. I failed my 6th grade math exit exam. I then, after summer school to get me past it, went on to ace Algebra and Geometry and any of the advanced mathematics. How can that be you say? Simple. I HATED memorizing, and a lot of 6th grade math was about memorizing and problem solving over and over again. Algebra and Geometry was about understanding how things worked, and that interested me to no end, because I had a teacher who showed how that kind of math applied to understanding aspects of nature that interested me. That there are students in all ages that do not do well in school is in my estimation a very bad way to measure success, because it ignores to the point of contempt what all men with an ounce of honest sense have known forever, and that is that some people are better at some things than other people. Some dogs are smarter than other dogs. Some are stronger, some are faster, some are whatever. That doesn't make them less the creatures that they are, just different or rather unique. I personally believe that every person is gifted in one way or another. The key to success for any public education system is IMHO to find out what the strengths of any student is fairly early on, and then focus on their strengths, while not letting up on the basics, reading writing arithmetic. And the more we can get social indoctrination out of the public schools, the better off we will be. But at this point we will have to fight civil wars to make that happen. But any attempt to make all children equal is bound to lead, by way of initial and regular disappointment, to dumbing down the curriculum, so that success appears to have been achieved, and administrators can then keep their jobs, without which they will lose their homes, and possibly their families. Bob Contrary to urban legend, public education is not deteriorating. During the imaginary good old days, students were usually segregated by race, class, income, or address. Students who were not learning successfully were generally kept out of public view. Expectations for such students were low. Unsuccessful students often dropped out of school when they were still relatively young. Truancy laws were not strictly enforced in downscale and nonwhite neighborhoods, nor were child labor laws. For as long as public education has existed, there have been large numbers of sixth graders who read at the second grade level. And so on...snip ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On Sunday, August 28, 2011, Petrides, M.D. Marian mpetri...@earthlink.net wrote: Hmmm... sounds suspiciously like No Child Left Behind here in the States. The sad thing on our side of the pond is that NCLB worked so well (NOT!) that they have decided to apply its principles to graduate medical education. The scary thing is that we Boomers will be the recipients of this wonderful brand of medical care. --- (dripping with sarcasm, if you couldn't already tell) Otoh, you get the results of the regulations your generation made ;-) On Aug 28, 2011, at 11:46 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). I have just been looking at a series of letters written to my younger son from his erstwhile school mates at his school in Fife, Scotland; filled with basic spelling errors and grammar problems (these kids were 11 at the time); most of them being monoglot English speakers, a few spoke Fife-Scots at home. My sons, who have English and Bulgarian as mother tongues, and are both fluent in German, don't make those sort of spelling errors in any of their 3 dominant languages. If sschool kids cannot spell in their school language how on earth can one expect them to get their programming syntax right, let alone the odd nested FOR . . . NEXT loop? My younger son starts at Salem on the 10th; as the highest scholarship holder: http://www.salem-net.de/ I wonder why I'm not sending him to school in Britain? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
I wonder if there is any opportunity to apply the obvious intelligence within the LiveCode community (and LiveCode technologies) to help analyse and/or resolve some of these wicked problems facing society - where there is no magic bullet and the 'best' answer is always the least of all evils. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem Anyone interested in how technology is being applied to wicked problems, IBIS and the background information on Compendium provide some interesting starting points compendium.open.ac.uk/institute/ Best, Keith.. On 29 Aug 2011, at 21:04, Maarten Koopmans maarten.koopm...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, August 28, 2011, Petrides, M.D. Marian mpetri...@earthlink.net wrote: Hmmm... sounds suspiciously like No Child Left Behind here in the States. The sad thing on our side of the pond is that NCLB worked so well (NOT!) that they have decided to apply its principles to graduate medical education. The scary thing is that we Boomers will be the recipients of this wonderful brand of medical care. --- (dripping with sarcasm, if you couldn't already tell) Otoh, you get the results of the regulations your generation made ;-) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/29/2011 11:32 PM, Keith Clarke wrote: I wonder if there is any opportunity to apply the obvious intelligence within the LiveCode community (and LiveCode technologies) to help analyse and/or resolve some of these wicked problems facing society - where there is no magic bullet and the 'best' answer is always the least of all evils. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem Anyone interested in how technology is being applied to wicked problems, IBIS and the background information on Compendium provide some interesting starting points compendium.open.ac.uk/institute/ Best, Keith.. Probably a way to get started is to start is to get over the socialist/liberal idea that everybody is equal at birth and that if only everybody were given an equal chance they would all become screaming geniuses. The next thing would be to bring back both ability streaming in education, and an idea (oddly enough from Communist Bulgaria) of specialist secondary schools for different abilities and skills. The most difficult thing would be to remove the social stigma attached to being outwith the elite, yet retaining enough upward pressure so that those who feel inclined can and are able to climb up the socio-educational ladder. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
[OT] Mediocre Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). I have just been looking at a series of letters written to my younger son from his erstwhile school mates at his school in Fife, Scotland; filled with basic spelling errors and grammar problems (these kids were 11 at the time); most of them being monoglot English speakers, a few spoke Fife-Scots at home. My sons, who have English and Bulgarian as mother tongues, and are both fluent in German, don't make those sort of spelling errors in any of their 3 dominant languages. If sschool kids cannot spell in their school language how on earth can one expect them to get their programming syntax right, let alone the odd nested FOR . . . NEXT loop? My younger son starts at Salem on the 10th; as the highest scholarship holder: http://www.salem-net.de/ I wonder why I'm not sending him to school in Britain? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
Hmmm... sounds suspiciously like No Child Left Behind here in the States. The sad thing on our side of the pond is that NCLB worked so well (NOT!) that they have decided to apply its principles to graduate medical education. The scary thing is that we Boomers will be the recipients of this wonderful brand of medical care. --- (dripping with sarcasm, if you couldn't already tell) On Aug 28, 2011, at 11:46 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). I have just been looking at a series of letters written to my younger son from his erstwhile school mates at his school in Fife, Scotland; filled with basic spelling errors and grammar problems (these kids were 11 at the time); most of them being monoglot English speakers, a few spoke Fife-Scots at home. My sons, who have English and Bulgarian as mother tongues, and are both fluent in German, don't make those sort of spelling errors in any of their 3 dominant languages. If sschool kids cannot spell in their school language how on earth can one expect them to get their programming syntax right, let alone the odd nested FOR . . . NEXT loop? My younger son starts at Salem on the 10th; as the highest scholarship holder: http://www.salem-net.de/ I wonder why I'm not sending him to school in Britain? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: [OT] Mediocre Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). I don't think the phenomenon is limited to the UK, sadly. The base of the pillar is the family. Too many parents are anti-academic or don't care enough to see that their kids have at least the same opportunities that the parents had at the same age (or better, where it should be). Fix the base, everything else becomes a lot easier. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/28/2011 08:56 PM, John Dixon wrote: Richmond... You often make me smile when you vent about something that obviously gets right up your nose... Well, I'm glad I make somebody smile . . . :) Mind you, if I didn't I might smite you over the head with my slide-rule . . . :) so, I thought I would feed give you the link to a little story about some people who are obviously morons... they go by the names of Mark Smith and Dan Abelow... and I'm sat here laughing just wondering what your take it going to be on this one... :-) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14682700 It might be of interest to those who are trying to develop and sell their 'cottage industry' apps... as it seems to me that these morons have decided it might be clever to try and patent the wheel... Well, speaking as someone who has been spending buckets of time over the last 2 years on his 'cottage industry' app I feel really very sorry for Mark and Dan; they cannot be complete morons if they managed to write some reasonable software. Obviously the people at Lodsys are very, very intelligent, and evil! Actually (err, sorry; aksherlly) the thing that worries me about about 90% of education regardless of where it is, is that it seems to consist of fact-cramming and licking young folk into towing the accepted social line. Things that are missing are How To Think Outside the Box, How To Take Nothing For Granted and How To Say Boo to a Goose. Last month a whole lot of kids at my school told me that they really didn't want me to teach them that day; so I lay down on the sofa, closed my eyes and said get on with it then; and they did; occasionally prodding me for information or help; meanwhile I was able to get my head round a Unicode-with-Livecode problem that had given me an itch in one of my cerebral succuli for quite some time. The kids achieved, that day, at least as much without my direct teaching as they would have achieved with me ramming stuff at them like a pile-driver. That is education! Dixie ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On 08/28/2011 09:12 PM, Lynn Fredricks wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). I don't think the phenomenon is limited to the UK, sadly. The base of the pillar is the family. Too many parents are anti-academic 10 points for Gryffindor! or don't care enough to see that their kids have at least the same opportunities that the parents had at the same age (or better, where it should be). Fix the base, everything else becomes a lot easier. Education should start and finish at home; the odd, stray bit of education at some vaguely educational institution in the middle might be useful, but is not strictly necessary. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On Aug 28, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). Contrary to all the urban legends, schools are not actually getting worse. Contrary to urban legend, public education is not deteriorating. During the imaginary good old days, students were usually segregated by race, class, income, or address. Students who were not learning successfully were generally kept out of public view. Expectations for such students were low. Unsuccessful students often dropped out of school when they were still relatively young. Truancy laws were not strictly enforced in downscale and nonwhite neighborhoods, nor were child labor laws. For as long as public education has existed, there have been large numbers of sixth graders who read at the second grade level. And so on... In recent years, students are mixed in the same schools, often the same classrooms, with little regard for race, class, income, address, motivation or ability. Students supported by very little social capital sit desk-by-desk with students who enjoy a great deal of social capital. Meanwhile, social and political sentiment has turned against grouping students in classrooms (not to mention schools) according to ability. Students who would have dropped out of school (often younger than the official age of sixteen) in decades past often share the same classrooms with bright and highly motivated students. In many cities around the US (and presumably the UK) affluent families who live in economically and ethnically mixed school districts send their relatively skilled and motivated students to private schools. This increases the concentration of unskilled and unmotivated students in public schools. Unskilled and unmotivated students in private schools are generally not welcomed and tolerated. They end up back in public schools. This also increases the concentration of unmotivated and unskilled students in public schools. As Richard suggests, these changes have occurred largely because of changes in government regulation. Good idea or bad? Over-regulation? That's highly debatable. I know of a prominent grade 8 to 12 charter school, renowned to be very effective. It's not allowed to discriminate, but those with access to inside information know that unmotivated and unsuccessful students are informally pressured by teachers, staff, and students to return to public school. I also know of prominent K to charter schools located in poor neighborhoods, renowned to be very effective. It's well known that these schools differentially attract stable families who value education. Much research indicates that students learn best when grouped by ability, not age. Teachers teach most effectively when their students are grouped by ability. School teachers know this very well, from first-hand experience. Students of similar ability have the opportunity to enjoy participation in a community of learners. This probably enhances morale for all involved, including the slow learners. Few public school classrooms these days can be described as a community of learners. This includes community colleges and downscale state colleges. However, grouping students by ability rather than age also causes problems. Most voters in the US and UK oppose it, because it seems discriminatory, and they fear it would make the education gap worse instead of better. Some parents -- also some educators, politicians and social scientists, believe that a less skilled student will become more skilled if he shares a classroom with a more skilled student. This reflects the current obsession with good schools. Poor parents hope that their children will perform better if they are able to attend good schools. As far as I can tell, little evidence supports this supposition. It's pretty clear that if students were grouped by ability in public schools, in the U.S. or U.K., the most skilled classrooms, relative to age, would look predominantly white (and Asian) and upper-middle-class. Various haphazard mechanisms sometimes group students by ability to some degree. Advanced placement courses in high school. A few children are obliged to repeat a grade or allowed to skip a grade. In the U.S, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, students were grouped by ability rather than age. Various problems occurred. Older and less able students felt discouraged and humiliated. Younger and more able students were bullied and deprived of the opportunity to associate with their
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
There are some fundamental philosophical contradictions between meritocracy and fairness. Society -- in the US, UK and elsewhere -- is not prepared to deal with these difficult issues and generally chooses to ignore the problem. Have a nice day, Tim Miller Indeed there are some fundamental philosophical contradictions: a meritocracy should be based on merit; and that, as we are all well aware, can come as merit in the form of intelligence and/or whether Mummy and Daddy can pay. I certainly do not want my second son (who is intelligent) sitting next to young people who are going to have a bad influence on his motivation (just had 2 years of that, so off he goes to the most elitist school in Europe; for very little money indeed because his educational merit has been recognised). My first son, despite his intelligence, has suffered to an extent by mixing with disinterested kids for homes where education comes a poor second after drooling over moronic tv programmes and computer games; he, as a result of that, has to spend a year somewhere where he doesn't want to playing catch-up with those who went to elitist schools: I regret that my wife and I were goofy enough, in the interests of him mixing socially with all strata of society, to leave him there and not pull him out when the warning signs first showed. Frankly I don't really care about fairness that much; has life been fair to you, has it been fair to me? A silly question which has no real answer (probably because the word, 'fair', at its centre is almost semantically empty). I am a human being, who, as a human being, cares more about his kids than somebody else's. I am not going to pretend (as we, in Scotland, know full well how they pretend 'doun sooth') that I am a wishy-washy liberal who, by stretching his resources to be 'fair' helps no one at all. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
It's a situation not limited to the UK, it's the same here in Canada Hodie Non Cras On 2011-08-28, at 12:46 PM, Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133 doesn't frankly surprise me; after all Being British is all about dumbing down things to the lowest common denominator; education, over-regulation (after all, if 5% of the population are morons the government must screw up everybody's life by regulating things to protect the morons from themselves: maybe the morons should be told you are morons, get off your fat, supplementary-benefit-fed bottoms and start getting your brains working). I have just been looking at a series of letters written to my younger son from his erstwhile school mates at his school in Fife, Scotland; filled with basic spelling errors and grammar problems (these kids were 11 at the time); most of them being monoglot English speakers, a few spoke Fife-Scots at home. My sons, who have English and Bulgarian as mother tongues, and are both fluent in German, don't make those sort of spelling errors in any of their 3 dominant languages. If sschool kids cannot spell in their school language how on earth can one expect them to get their programming syntax right, let alone the odd nested FOR . . . NEXT loop? My younger son starts at Salem on the 10th; as the highest scholarship holder: http://www.salem-net.de/ I wonder why I'm not sending him to school in Britain? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On Aug 28, 2011, at 12:31 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: Frankly I don't really care about fairness that much; has life been fair to you, has it been fair to me? A silly question which has no real answer (probably because the word, 'fair', at its centre is almost semantically empty). I am a human being, who, as a human being, cares more about his kids than somebody else's. I am not going to pretend (as we, in Scotland, know full well how they pretend 'doun sooth') that I am a wishy-washy liberal who, by stretching his resources to be 'fair' helps no one at all. I didn't say that you ought to be fair. On the other hand, many voters, politicians, teachers, administrators and parents are very concerned about fairness. You might have trouble persuading them that they have it all wrong. While you're doing that, they will be trying to persuade you that you have it all wrong. Have fun. Tim ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
Don't EVEN get me started on my students... Judy On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote: Hmmm... sounds suspiciously like No Child Left Behind here in the States. The sad thing on our side of the pond is that NCLB worked so well (NOT!) that they have decided to apply its principles to graduate medical education. The scary thing is that we Boomers will be the recipients of this wonderful brand of medical care. --- (dripping with sarcasm, if you couldn't already tell) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] Mediocre Britain
On Aug 28, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Don't EVEN get me started on my students... Judy I'll get you started, Judy. Maybe the catharsis will do you good. Both my kids went to a community college, and both got pretty good educations. Both have been successful academically after completing community college. This is a summary of their many reports. Say my kid signs up for English 5. Because it satisfies a general education requirement, it draws a lot of students. You're not allowed to take it unless you've passed the English placement examination. Only about half the incoming first-years actually pass the English placement examination. English 5 starts out with 100 students enrolled. (These are representative numbers, not an exact case.) Of these 50 will never attempt to read the textbook, take notes, or turn in any homework. Many of these students are sponging off Mom, partying a lot. If they're male, they are probably smoking a lot of dope and playing Call of Duty all night. They've enrolled partly to avoid parental displeasure, to avoid getting a job, to remain eligible for parental health insurance, and possibly to qualify for student loans. Some have enrolled with the naive belief that they will get good jobs some day if they merely enroll. W day comes about half way through the semester. If you withdraw from the course before W day, you get a W instead of an F without any hit to your grade point average, though you don't get credit for the course. The week before W day, about seventy students show up for the course. The rest have stopped attending, with our without Ws. The week after W day, about forty students show up for the course. Of the remaining forty students, fifteen will fail the course. Why they didn't take W's when they had the chance is an ongoing mystery. Some of these were doomed to fail, by virtue of poor educational success in grades K-12. The twenty-five who pass have made some effort to study. About eight of the original 100 will get A's. They have made at least a modest effort to study and do homework. The professor, in most cases, has bravely maintained some kind of academic standard. She has taught to the students who have some desire to learn. Many of the students who pass the course will get Cs and Ds, representing little if any mastery of the material. This has been going on for years at my local community college, and likely many others like it around the country and maybe in the U.K., too. It is the unintended consequence of teaching first graders (and their parents) that the whole purpose of the first grade is to prepare every student for college. I don't know where you teach, Judy. Cal State Fullerton? I hope it's better there than at my local community college. Unfortunately, you do get some of the students who got Cs and Ds at community college. Cheers, Tim On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote: Hmmm... sounds suspiciously like No Child Left Behind here in the States. The sad thing on our side of the pond is that NCLB worked so well (NOT!) that they have decided to apply its principles to graduate medical education. The scary thing is that we Boomers will be the recipients of this wonderful brand of medical care. --- (dripping with sarcasm, if you couldn't already tell) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
